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Old 08-03-2012, 03:34 PM   #1
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Dual Saber Jedi?

Were there any dual saber Jedi in the lore? I know i have seen saber staff ones but dual sabers? I was wondering this for some odd reason it popped into my head as to why i have seen dual weilding sith but not Jedi.


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Old 08-03-2012, 03:41 PM   #2
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You can see dual weilding Jedi in Attack of the Clones.



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Old 08-03-2012, 03:42 PM   #3
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You can see dual weilding Jedi in Attack of the Clones.
really? Never noticed...know about where in the film and who?


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Old 08-03-2012, 04:13 PM   #4
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really? Never noticed...know about where in the film and who?
During the arena scene, you can see some Jedi in the background fighting with two lightsabers.



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Old 08-03-2012, 04:15 PM   #5
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During the arena scene, you can see some Jedi in the background fighting with two lightsabers.
oh yeah!!! thats right. Thanks i forgot about that huge fight scene


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Old 08-03-2012, 04:50 PM   #6
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Kotor 2 is a prime example, Master Kavar dual wields.


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Old 08-03-2012, 06:16 PM   #7
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Raskta Lsu
Exar Kun
Sora Bulq
Darth Krayt (Formerly Jedi A'Sharad Hett)
Starkiller Clone

There are perhaps 15 or so more in known Literature and film, but not as well known

The Style is generally known as Jar'Kai or Niman


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Old 08-03-2012, 06:22 PM   #8
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Raskta Lsu
Exar Kun
Sora Bulq
Darth Krayt (Formerly Jedi A'Sharad Hett)
Starkiller Clone

There are perhaps 15 or so more in known Literature and film, but not as well known

The Style is generally known as Jar'Kai or Niman
Yeah just noticed this on Wookipedia....So interesting how much lore i have NO clue about.


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Old 08-03-2012, 06:27 PM   #9
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Star Wars, Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force is a great read and covers most Lore regarding our Fanatic plasma-sword wielding monk buddies


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Old 08-03-2012, 06:28 PM   #10
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Sara Ketto. Killed by the newly christened Darth Vader. She dual wielded.

Exar Kun invented the double bladed saber in his sith days. He was a great duelist single and quite proficient dual wielder.

Kao Cen Darach was also a dual wielder but despite his supposedly superior skill and experience with the variant, he was still no match for the brute force of Lord Malgus.

Aryn Leneer also had some proficiency in dual wielding in Deceived, though initially she started out single wielding.



I personally think this style is underrated. Purists (IMO conformists) used to win the popularity vote with single bladed claiming dual wield is excessive, lacking elegance, too barbaric, and blah-blah-blah. Funny we didn't see this complaint about Maul with a double bladed saber. Whether people like it or not, it's a viable style and it's here to stay.

Even if on cutscenes in SWTOR only the primary blade is used, people like it enough to use it.


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Old 08-03-2012, 06:43 PM   #11
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Sara Ketto. Killed by the newly christened Darth Vader. She dual wielded.

Exar Kun invented the double bladed saber in his sith days. He was a great duelist single and quite proficient dual wielder.

Kao Cen Darach was also a dual wielder but despite his supposedly superior skill and experience with the variant, he was still no match for the brute force of Lord Malgus.

Aryn Leneer also had some proficiency in dual wielding in Deceived, though initially she started out single wielding.



I personally think this style is underrated. Purists (IMO conformists) used to win the popularity vote with single bladed claiming dual wield is excessive, lacking elegance, too barbaric, and blah-blah-blah. Funny we didn't see this complaint about Maul with a double bladed saber. Whether people like it or not, it's a viable style and it's here to stay.

Even if on cutscenes in SWTOR only the primary blade is used, people like it enough to use it.
I think it is underated too, just because it was not introduced in the original series people knock it but honestly a dual saber style would rely more on finesse and speed and accuracy where are a single saber is more based on power. Dual-weilding is obviously superior.


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Old 08-03-2012, 06:57 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd View Post
The Style is generally known as Jar'Kai or Niman
Jar'Kai was an ancient sword-fighting technique that utilized dual-wielding. Niman is a lightsaber form that balances out the others, having no specific strengths nor weaknesses. It could be used with or without two lightsabers.

Wow, I sound like a nerd.



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Old 08-03-2012, 07:01 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by LDR View Post
Jar'Kai was an ancient sword-fighting technique that utilized dual-wielding. Niman is a lightsaber form that balances out the others, having no specific strengths nor weaknesses. It could be used with or without two lightsabers.

Wow, I sound like a nerd.
Interesting fact. Not surprising some REAL WORLD applications/methods are added to star wars, George is kind of a history buff from everything i have heard.


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Old 08-03-2012, 07:08 PM   #14
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The first example that I know of is Luke in the old Marvel Star Wars comics. The next one I can think of is Boc from the first Jedi Knight game. Then Attack of the Clones happened and now they're everywhere.


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Old 08-03-2012, 07:28 PM   #15
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The first example that I know of is Luke in the old Marvel Star Wars comics. The next one I can think of is Boc from the first Jedi Knight game. Then Attack of the Clones happened and now they're everywhere.
Was Luke know for this style in the comic or did he just have this for a few fight scenes?


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Old 08-03-2012, 09:52 PM   #16
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In AotC, Anakin Force pulls Obi-wan's his lightsaber and for a moment he dual wields in a fight against Dooku.

How can people miss that one? It's the most obvious on-screen example.

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Old 08-03-2012, 09:55 PM   #17
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In AotC, Anakin Force pulls Obi-wan's his lightsaber and for a moment he dual wields in a fight against Dooku.

How can people miss that one? It's the most obvious on-screen example.
I was more looking for the fact they use this as a style..as it is just part of their usual fighting.


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Old 08-03-2012, 10:11 PM   #18
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I was more looking for the fact they use this as a style..as it is just part of their usual fighting.
Well then that's just EU stuff which doesn't matter at all But in terms of making stuff up to explain obscure things that happen in the canon which is what EU is good at... I'm sure Anakin knew and was using a dual wielding saber style during that fight (which he had practiced) but doesn't dual wield regularly because it's not his favourite style.

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Old 08-03-2012, 10:19 PM   #19
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Well then that's just EU stuff which doesn't matter at all But in terms of making stuff up to explain obscure things that happen in the canon which is what EU is good at... I'm sure Anakin knew and was using a dual wielding saber style during that fight (which he had practiced) but doesn't dual wield regularly because it's not his favourite style.
Yeah, it is an actual style according to Wookiepedia called "Jar'Kai"...not sure if that style was a thought in the original idea of things or not though.


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Old 08-03-2012, 10:42 PM   #20
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Was Luke know for this style in the comic or did he just have this for a few fight scenes?
It was just a one off thing, like Anakin in Attack of the Clones but more elaborate. I've never read Marvel Star Wars, I don't even know why I know this.

Here. That should explain the rest.

I've just remembered another case from before Attack of the Clones, though. One of the Council members in the comics set before Phantom Menace wielded two yellow sabers. Here's a picture.



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Old 08-04-2012, 12:22 AM   #21
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It was just a one off thing, like Anakin in Attack of the Clones but more elaborate. I've never read Marvel Star Wars, I don't even know why I know this.

Here. That should explain the rest.

I've just remembered another case from before Attack of the Clones, though. One of the Council members in the comics set before Phantom Menace wielded two yellow sabers. Here's a picture.
This is such an interesting subject for me because Jedi/Sith have so much range in traits/styles/personalities that the combinations are endless.


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Old 08-04-2012, 12:26 AM   #22
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Darth Bane had a Twi'lek master for a while who was a 'Blademaster' at the Sith Academy on Korriban. This guy knew all the lightsaber fighting styles, and taught all the sith at the academy that dual wielding was inherently a flawed style, and shouldn't be used. In reality, he secretly practised it himself, presumably because it's actually very powerful.

IIRC Revan is depicted as having dual sabers in some places, but whether this is canon or not, I don't know.

Luke Skywalker employed the use of a secondary, shorter lightsaber called a 'shoto' for a while. 'Shoto' is a Japanese word for short swords, and samurai sometimes used shoto's just like Jedi are showed as using. The Jedi are, obviously, based on samurai to some extent.



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Old 08-04-2012, 12:32 AM   #23
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Darth Bane had a Twi'lek master for a while who was a 'Blademaster' at the Sith Academy on Korriban. This guy knew all the lightsaber fighting styles, and taught all the sith at the academy that dual wielding was inherently a flawed style, and shouldn't be used. In reality, he secretly practised it himself, presumably because it's actually very powerful.

IIRC Revan is depicted as having dual sabers in some places, but whether this is canon or not, I don't know.

Luke Skywalker employed the use of a secondary, shorter lightsaber called a 'shoto' for a while. 'Shoto' is a Japanese word for short swords, and samurai sometimes used shoto's just like Jedi are showed as using. The Jedi are, obviously, based on samurai to some extent.
That would be very like a Sith Lord to always have some edge over his apprentice.


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Old 08-04-2012, 02:15 AM   #24
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Jar'Kai was an ancient sword-fighting technique that utilized dual-wielding. Niman is a lightsaber form that balances out the others, having no specific strengths nor weaknesses. It could be used with or without two lightsabers.

Wow, I sound like a nerd.
True, but Niman actually encompasses dual wielding--a recent revision to be sure. There were previously numerous "sub-forms" of lightsaber combat and techniques, strategy, tactics, etc.

It is said in some of the referenced material that ultimate mastery of dual wield requires strong proficiency to mastery of Niman. And supposedly Ataru's full mastery required dual wield.

What I wonder is why emphasis on mastering one-handed variations of all the forms isn't brought up especially if Niman blends all the forms before it (1 through 5) and dual wield is obviously 2 single blades, one in each hand.

Makashi makes the most use of single hand (though form 2 practitioners have been known to use two hands on a single blade as well), but the others do too.

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The first example that I know of is Luke in the old Marvel Star Wars comics. The next one I can think of is Boc from the first Jedi Knight game. Then Attack of the Clones happened and now they're everywhere.
My picture album has some issues from the same series (fair to mediocre condition) I found at a yard sale a few years ago for 25 cents a piece, though not the specific issue of which you speak.

Now that I think of it, you're right about the first Jedi Knight game. Boc Aseca.


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In AotC, Anakin Force pulls Obi-wan's his lightsaber and for a moment he dual wields in a fight against Dooku.

How can people miss that one? It's the most obvious on-screen example.
I thought we were forgetting something.

Or the cut content where they had Christopher Lee dual wielding in a few test shoots until they decided to scrap that idea for character development of Dooku preferring single bladed. Actually reading Labyrinth of Evil right now where he interjects on the various saber forms while training General Grievous.


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Old 08-04-2012, 03:25 AM   #25
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Quote:
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Jar'Kai was an ancient sword-fighting technique that utilized dual-wielding. Niman is a lightsaber form that balances out the others, having no specific strengths nor weaknesses. It could be used with or without two lightsabers
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Originally Posted by Darth Avlectus View Post
True, but Niman actually encompasses dual wielding--a recent revision to be sure.
As above


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Old 08-04-2012, 04:32 AM   #26
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As above
Oh, I'd meant to elaborate further, thanks for catching that.

It used to be that a whole other sub form Jar'Kai was based off the ancient sword style previously not incorporated with Niman but had been said to require Niman. Now it's just "part of" it--probably an editorial move on the canonecity committee's part to reduce confusion. Didn't contradict anything.

Related:
Currently with SWTOR, no mention of Djem So. I'd presume Malgus by all indications is a Sith Juggernaut using Shien but have nothing solid to go on.

I also find it curious that there's not maybe a little more about lightsaber combat for the game than what is available. It'd be nice to go into the history of Jar'Kai.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan View Post
Darth Bane had a Twi'lek master for a while who was a 'Blademaster' at the Sith Academy on Korriban. This guy knew all the lightsaber fighting styles, and taught all the sith at the academy that dual wielding was inherently a flawed style, and shouldn't be used. In reality, he secretly practised it himself, presumably because it's actually very powerful.
Ah yes. That actually was one of the best minor plot twists IMO delivered at just the right point.

I do wonder about The Echani Jedi weapons master, Raskta Lsu in the sequel and how she compared to Kas'im. I think she was slightly more devoted to lightsaber combat--
spoiler:
to her detriment
. The Twi'lek was physically superior, though, and could last longer plus had some force defenses--
spoiler:
of course this didn't save him.

The former was beat simply due to the wiles of another while unable to overcome her foe even with help, the latter bested inopportune circumstance and strategy.



Quote:
IIRC Revan is depicted as having dual sabers in some places, but whether this is canon or not, I don't know.
I think it might be. His chosen overall style might be that of a Jedi Master but like other masters, he was depicted after K1 as knowing at least some of the higher lightsaber forms. I have some idea on this given what info is available but it's merely inference based on my observations. So we may or may not be able to include Revan.

The Exile, again same ambiguity--could be. Indications as you know in the Revan novel are
spoiler:
she was more combat based but preferred the single blade.



Quote:
Luke Skywalker employed the use of a secondary, shorter lightsaber called a 'shoto' for a while. 'Shoto' is a Japanese word for short swords, and samurai sometimes used shoto's just like Jedi are showed as using. The Jedi are, obviously, based on samurai to some extent.
Yes. The dual wield style specifically using a regular blade and a shoto may in fact be a nod to Miyamoto Musashi who invented the 2 katanna style and is considered one of the best duelists of samurai. His strategy writings "Book of Five Rings" is quite inspirational to me personally.

IIRC Jedi are also based on shaolin monks somewhat, and of course the many variants of european knights.


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Old 08-04-2012, 07:01 AM   #27
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^^Great insight to the Melee arts as always GT... I mean Darth Avlectus
I quoted you as to say your explanation was my understanding of Jar'Kai too, not to correct you with LDR's quote

I'd always considered a duel wield style to be clumsy and ugly, mainly because the only time I'd seen it in canon was AOTC, in which Anakin of course uses in vain against the more seasoned duelist Count Dooku. It wasn't until I read the Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi that I really gained respect for the style. I personally still prefer a single blade though



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Old 08-04-2012, 10:14 AM   #28
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I thought Jar'Kai and Niman were the same thing depending on where in the universe you were or did i read wrong?


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Old 08-04-2012, 11:05 AM   #29
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Jar'Kai was a blanket term for dual wielding taken from a much earlier form of Sword combat, Niman was also an ancient sword-style not created by the Jedi. Much later in history, when the Jedi devised their sixth form of lightsaber combat, they named it Niman but also taught the history of its origins.

Niman isn't necessarily a dual weapon style, only that it lends itself well to said style. Ataru can also utilize two blades within its structure.

I'm assuming it has two names because of some slip up in continuity in times gone by lol. From what I can decipher, Jar'kai was created during the early nineties Expanded Universe, The Jedi Knight series I think. Then during the prequels I assume Anakin's style was called Niman in a visual guide or something... happens all the time. (Could be wrong, just a guess)


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Old 08-04-2012, 11:07 AM   #30
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Ahsoka Tano apparently started using a shoto at some point.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ahsoka_Tano

And we all know Ventress almost always uses two blades, but hers are both the same length and can be connected to make a dual-blade.

Here's the wookiepedia link on shotos if your interested

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shoto


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Old 08-04-2012, 11:15 AM   #31
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Ahsoka Tano apparently started using a shoto at some point.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ahsoka_Tano

And we all know Ventress almost always uses two blades, but hers are both the same length and can be connected to make a dual-blade.

Here's the wookiepedia link on shotos if your interested

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shoto
Yeah Ventress almost always has the 2 long sabers.


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Old 08-05-2012, 12:16 AM   #32
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Hard to keep track of 'em all.

Ventress, a misguided force adept according to Kenobi at some later date. She in known by most for having dual wielded, though she started out with a single blade. Taken from her slain master, while in grieving.
Which has its connection: She received her dual blades from Count Dooku. The blades belonged to his former apprentice, Komari Vosa some time. Fallen to the dark side, Vosa became a target and a prey for bounty hunter competing for both a large sum of money and immortality through becoming the specimen for the clone troopers. So you can add her to dual wielding.

Speaking of Kenobi, he had another dealing with yet another who had fallen to the dark side: A'Sharad Hett born of a Tusken Raider tribe, he was the son of Jedi Sharad Hett. A'Sharad Hett was a dual wielder as well.

@adam: Thanks. Hey, regardless of intent you still helped me remember something.

Edit: Ah yes, and another one is Jaric Kaedan. Seen in the lost suns comic, wielding dual blades while near Satele Shan, preapring for a fight. Noted as a "living weapon" and a master of Juyo-Kos, apparently another name for the seventh lightsaber form. Perhaps the additional "kos" name refers to the dual wield variant?

Juyo-Kos, J-K; J'K, Jar'Kai.


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Old 08-09-2012, 04:51 PM   #33
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Dual-wielding is a gimic that any Jedi should be ashamed of using!

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Old 08-14-2012, 02:33 PM   #34
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I'm glad to see I settled the debate.

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:07 PM   #35
Trench
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Quote:
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Dual-wielding is a gimic that any Jedi should be ashamed of using!
Quote:
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I'm glad to see I settled the debate.


I object! There is no proof!

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:27 PM   #36
Kyr'am Galaar
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I object! There is no proof!
I concur. I am enjoying this debate very much.

Carry on.

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|~La-da-di-do-laaaa!!! I am an oh-so evil sith lawd! And a mando cheftan, and a aich-kay assashshshasssasa... Assassshasshasasha. Ass... I kill shtuf. And imma robot. Beep boop beep bop~|

|~La-da-di-do-laaaa!!! I am an oh-so evil sith lawd! And a mando cheftan, and a aich-kay assashshshasssasa... Assassshasshasasha. Ass... I kill shtuf. And imma robot. Beep boop beep bop~|
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Old 08-15-2012, 03:46 AM   #37
Darth Avlectus
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Quote:
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Dual-wielding is a gimic that any Jedi should be ashamed of using!
Coming from the samurai with 3 blades about his person. Just to look fancy.



"I cant see S***! --YOU GO TO HELL!" --Tourettes guy
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:45 AM   #38
Prime
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That's totally different!

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Old 08-22-2012, 11:47 PM   #39
Darth Avlectus
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...OK you got me.

BTW, I have a confession to make: I killed GTA:SWcity.


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Old 08-23-2012, 01:37 AM   #40
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