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Old 11-22-2012, 02:42 PM   #1
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Lightbulb The Star Wars Saga in Machete order (IV, V, II, III, VI)

http://www.nomachetejuggling.com/201...viewing-order/

It's a year old, yes... but if you're not aware of it like I wasn't only a few minutes ago, what this guy is suggesting is actually quite brilliant.

Instead of release order (4 to 6 then 1 to 3) or episode order (1 to 6), the "Machete order" says to watch...

Episode 4 and 5, then jump to 2 and 3 and then finally watch 6.

His reasoning in his entry are pretty damn good and I'm actually going to watch the movies in that order right now just to see how well it works... my nephew hasn't seen any of the Star Wars movies and isn't aware of any of the secrets it holds... so maybe this is a good way of introducing Star Wars to him... I mean, there's no way you can show him the series in episode order, it ruins the big surprise in ESB... and showing him the release order isn't gonna cut it cause all of the good stuff was at the start and then all you have left is backstory movies which don't really go anywhere.

Maybe this is the new way to enjoy Star Wars for the new generation.

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Old 11-22-2012, 11:16 PM   #2
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Definitely the order to go with but I had never considered dropping Episode I.
Interesting, makes sense but I'd still miss Qui Gon and the "Duel of the Fates".
This is probably how I'll introduce my kids to it.

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Old 11-23-2012, 08:11 AM   #3
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...Throw it on the end after VI? lol.


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Old 11-23-2012, 09:36 AM   #4
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TPM never happened. Besides, the best part of TPM is already completely ruined by this:

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...and the Plinkett reviews lol, not that TPM needed help to be ruined since it did it itself. So it really has no redeeming qualities. Ignore it for the better and live a longer life because of it.

Been watching the movies in the machete order... it actually does make quite a bit of sense, I'm definitely trying to order with people new to Star Wars.

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Old 11-23-2012, 01:14 PM   #5
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His reasoning in his entry are pretty damn good
By ignoring a whole (good and important) movie, I'd say his reasoning is pretty damn bad.

P.S: I don't think we should call it "Machete order" either, since he wasn't the first who thought about viewing the prequels between TESB and RotJ.



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Old 11-23-2012, 01:27 PM   #6
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By ignoring a whole (good and important) movie, I'd say his reasoning is pretty damn bad.
I'm... assuming you mean TPM, the "good and important" part is throwing me off lol.

I watched the order he suggested and it seemed to work, with the only problem being the mentioning of Qui-Gonn during a few occasions. The lack of detail about the events without viewing TPM end up feeling like ANH does at the start with all of this pre-established stuff you haven't really heard about but have apparently happened so it works in that regard.

And yeah, he acknowledges in his entry that someone did come up with the order of 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 6 before him.... if you actually read the entry.

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Old 11-23-2012, 01:40 PM   #7
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I'm... assuming you mean TPM, the "good and important" part is throwing me off lol.
Whatever.

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I watched the order he suggested and it seemed to work, with the only problem being the mentioning of Qui-Gonn during a few occasions. The lack of detail about the events without viewing TPM end up feeling like ANH does at the start with all of this pre-established stuff you haven't really heard about but have apparently happened so it works in that regard.
I think TPM does have that ANH feeling but both movies end up introducing important elements that are relevant and will continue to be later on. TPM introduces Qui-Gon, the Jedi Order, the Sith, Naboo, Padmé, Anakin, the Prophecy, Anakin's discovery and relationship with Padmé and his mother, the Trade Federation, Palpatine's rise to power, among many other things like themes, tech, visuals, relationships, etc... So why avoid watching this movie? The "reasons" presented there seems to be nothing more than a childish rant that should have ended many years ago.

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And yeah, he acknowledges in his entry that someone did come up with the order of 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 6 before him.... if you actually read the entry.
I've read it many months ago. I still think people shouldn't refer to it that way (unless the "avoid Episode I" part is really that relevant).



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Old 11-23-2012, 01:54 PM   #8
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This just seems like a really bad idea to me, like when they turned the Godfather movies into a TV miniseries and cut all three of the movies together in a different order.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:10 PM   #9
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Ionno, seemed to make sense when I watched them in the order today. I'm no stranger to shows that end up doing a flashback in the middle of the story so I find it pretty easy to accept... that and I can't bring myself to watch TPM any more. I'm also used to movies where everything doesn't need to be explained to me like I'm a child... and then at the same time dribble on about politics for most of the movie.


EDIT: Also, Midichlorians...

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Old 11-23-2012, 04:15 PM   #10
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I'm also used to movies where everything doesn't need to be explained to me like I'm a child...
So am I. But I'm not sure how is that related to TPM, though.

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and then at the same time dribble on about politics for most of the movie.
Is 5 minutes most of the movie? Because that's how long the politics last.

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EDIT: Also, Midichlorians...
Yes, the link between living beings and the Force. I'm yet to understand the argument that "it makes the Force less mystical"...



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Old 11-23-2012, 04:23 PM   #11
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TPM spend a hell of a lot of time explaining things.

It's definitely more than 5 minutes... or it seems that way, must be the boredom making it seem like more.

The extended podracing part doesn't help either... it was long in the original theatrical version, it's insane now.

I also made a thread not long about encouraging people to talk about everything they loved about the PT, TPM included, so you don't need to take this all so personally.

Relating back to the thread, if I were to have a first timer watch the saga, I think I'd definitely watch it in this order and skip TPM. I'm gonna try with my nephew and see the results.

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Old 11-23-2012, 05:15 PM   #12
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TPM spend a hell of a lot of time explaining things.
I don't think it does. That's why I use ANH as the starting point for new viewers.

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I also made a thread not long about encouraging people to talk about everything they loved about the PT, TPM included, so you don't need to take this all so personally.
I'm not. I just think it's childish and selfish to make people avoid a movie just because one doesn't like it (specially a Star Wars movie). Let them judge for themselves.



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Old 11-23-2012, 06:03 PM   #13
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it sounds like a good idea to me to go in this order. might have to try it on my wife sometime....


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Old 11-23-2012, 06:58 PM   #14
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TPM never happened. Besides, the best part of TPM is already completely ruined by this:

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...and the Plinkett reviews lol, not that TPM needed help to be ruined since it did it itself. So it really has no redeeming qualities. Ignore it for the better and live a longer life because of it.

Been watching the movies in the machete order... it actually does make quite a bit of sense, I'm definitely trying to order with people new to Star Wars.
LOL, I've seen that before but if I expected realism in movie fight scenes then none of them would be watchable . Not to mention it's arguably the best duel in the saga. I guess I'll have to tack it on at the end as "bonus" material.

I do loathe the podracing scene. Way too long.

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Old 11-23-2012, 09:56 PM   #15
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I'm not. I just think it's childish and selfish to make people avoid a movie just because one doesn't like it (specially a Star Wars movie). Let them judge for themselves.
I guess you're absolutely right, I mean, I should have them watch The Clone Wars series too (both), I'm also forgetting the fact that people can't actually think for themselves and say "you know what, I think I'll watch that other movie too after seeing the five that I did", no one is going to do that, all they'll ever do is watch those 5 movies I specifically showed them because I am the keeper of the Star Wars movies, none shall watch anywhere in the entire world unless I say so! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! AAAAAAHAHAHAAHA!!!!!! Yes, I am that childish and selfish. Don't watch TPM everyone! DON'T WATCH IT EVER!! I SAID SO!

Seriously though, there are a lot of people who would only have people watch the remastered version of the OT or the despecialized versions you can find on the net and skip the PT entirely, I'm not childishly and selfishly trying to get people to avoid TPM no matter the cost, I'm trying to enhance the viewing experience people have when they watch Star Wars for the first time, and after viewing the movies in this order, I think there's a certain logic that goes into it that really works for the first time viewer in today's age, especially with the changes made to the movies over the years.

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Old 11-24-2012, 07:53 AM   #16
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Interesting, makes sense but I'd still miss Qui Gon and the "Duel of the Fates".
You could watch Taken as a substitute: IV, V, Taken, II, III, VI. It's flawless, trust me.


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Old 11-24-2012, 09:48 AM   #17
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@ Sabre: Brilliant.

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Old 11-24-2012, 10:27 AM   #18
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Only real reason I can see for altering the order is to keep from diminishing the impact of "Luke....I am your father" in ESB. You pretty much have to live under a rock at this point not to have heard about it, even if you never watched the movies (so, I guess we're mostly talking about the current generation of kids, who don't seem to think anything happened before they were born ). That said, though, not really a fan of TPM. Was kind of a disappointing entrance/reintro to SW saga.


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Old 11-24-2012, 10:30 AM   #19
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It is hard to imagine that there are people out there that don't know that Vader is Luke's father, but it's more likely than you think.

J just got back from my nieces 16th bday party awhile back and I asked my nephew everything he knew about Star Wars. He's heard of Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker and Yoda (or "the little guy") but that's about it, he doesn't really know much about it other than those characters and the overall setting.... which is perfect

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Old 11-24-2012, 11:06 AM   #20
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I'm not childishly and selfishly trying to get people to avoid TPM no matter the cost, I'm trying to enhance the viewing experience people have when they watch Star Wars for the first time, and after viewing the movies in this order, I think there's a certain logic that goes into it that really works for the first time viewer in today's age, especially with the changes made to the movies over the years.
Again, TPM does introduce people to certain characters, entities and events that are relevant later on. How does not showing it enhances their understanding of the other movies (specially Episodes II and III)? This problem wouldn't exist if you either show them all the prequels or avoid them all together. Would you show Episodes V and VI to someone without showing Episode IV as well? The same applies to the prequels. The only stand alone movies are I and IV.



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Old 11-24-2012, 11:44 AM   #21
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The start of AotC does a really good job at actually introducing each character with the exception of Qui-Gon and Shmi, though when you think about it, who the hell is Jedi Master Syfodias? I guess because he exists without an explanation in AotC, Qui-Gon and Shmi can be largely omitted too. From the opening scenes in the movie, you knew who Padme was, Chancellor Palpatine, the key Jedi masters, Obi-Wan and Anakin and their relationship to Padme as well as the overall unrest that's going on in the galaxy.

I was a little sceptical too, which is why I spent the other day watching the movies all in a row in this order to see if it would actually work... for whatever bad acting and awkward moments AotC has as a movie, it seems to handle simple character introductions and short expositions very well, exceptionally well compared to TPM... though maybe still not as well as ANH did it. The movie told you pretty much everything you needed to know right at the start.

RotS on the other hand assumes you know exactly what's going on because it makes absolutely NO attempt to explain anything, it's just running right when it hits the ground and it's off. The only thing that's explained is General Grievous' role since he's a new character to the movie.

I think the reason why AotC works well as a starting point for the prequel era is because of the 10 year gap between TPM and AotC that requires that people be reintroduced again and the setting be re-established. And the thing about TPM is that after this 10 year time period, the specifics of TPM become largely irrelevant. Actually, the interesting thing about AotC without TPM in this lineup is that the reveal of Sidious at the end of AotC is a huge "holy ****!" moment cause you just saw that guy talking to Darth Vader in the middle of ESB and he's still this really mysterious figure you know absolutely nothing about but you know he's this pure evil lurking in the background... and being more of a phantom menace than he is in TPM itself o.o

And you're right about the only stand alone movies being TPM and ANH, but in my view, AotC and RotS being preceded by ANH and ESB takes the place of TPM in explaining who these people are and why they matter because all of these characters and events are talked about in those two movies already.

So no, I wouldn't get people to watch only ESB and RotJ or only AotC and RotS, instead I feel that ANH and ESB make a better substitute to give people all the information they need to know who the people are in AotC and RotS and the events that are transpiring since the events that happen are so closely linked, the Clone Wars and Anakin's fall to the dark side being the most important key points.

So because TPM and ANH are capable of being stand alone, that means that if people want more Star Wars, they can always watch TPM if they're interested... it'd be no different than seeing a prequel (lol) movie of a series that just happened to have a flashback part in the middle of it. Plus there's no reason why people shouldn't also enjoy some Clone Wars as well while they're at it and if they're interested.

Overall, when I did watch the IV, V, II, III, VI order, it made quite a lot of sense and made it a more manageable viewing experience. It also made RotJ SO DAMN AWESOME. I mean, seriously, that downer you get from the end of RotS just makes the high at the end of RotJ just that much higher.

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Old 11-24-2012, 12:07 PM   #22
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It is hard to imagine that there are people out there that don't know that Vader is Luke's father, but it's more likely than you think.
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You pretty much have to live under a rock at this point not to have heard about it, even if you never watched the movies (so, I guess we're mostly talking about the current generation of kids, who don't seem to think anything happened before they were born ).
Pretty much why I didn't make it an absolute statement.


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Old 11-24-2012, 12:18 PM   #23
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Loved what I read, Lynk. I plan on showing the movies to a friend who has remained blissfully ignorant of Star Wars in the last 20 years next month and I'll use the Machete order and post the results. Last time I did this, I showed them to my ex on release order (OT then PT) and it was satisfactory, but Machete defends his case so cleverly I'm actually convinced that jumping the atrocious ep I will be a good thing (all I needed was a well-thought excuse to not showing it to any potential fans anyway). Please do the same with your nephew's experiment.


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Old 11-24-2012, 12:38 PM   #24
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The start of AotC does a really good job at actually introducing each character with the exception of Qui-Gon and Shmi,
And Palpatine, and how he rose to power and managed to still be the Chancellor after so many years, and the Prophecy (central part of the plot), and why Anakin is believed to be the Chosen One, and how the Jedi denied Anakin at first (which will have an impact later on), and Watto (a reminder of his past slave life), and many other big and minor things which are all relevant none the less.

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though when you think about it, who the hell is Jedi Master Syfodias? I guess because he exists without an explanation in AotC, Qui-Gon and Shmi can be largely omitted too.
I'm not sure how you've reached that conclusion. Both those characters are important elements of Anakin's life (unlike Sifo-Dyas, which is implied to be an alias Dooku used to order the army). Why would you want to make the protagonist of the story have such a bland backdrop?

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From the opening scenes in the movie, you knew who Padme was, Chancellor Palpatine, the key Jedi masters, Obi-Wan and Anakin and their relationship to Padme as well as the overall unrest that's going on in the galaxy.
Same thing with TESB, but you don't know what the characters have been through, which enhaces the story and the characters themselves.

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I was a little sceptical too, which is why I spent the other day watching the movies all in a row in this order to see if it would actually work... for whatever bad acting and awkward moments AotC has as a movie, it seems to handle simple character introductions and short expositions very well, exceptionally well compared to TPM... though maybe still not as well as ANH did it. The movie told you pretty much everything you needed to know right at the start.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, specially with that last setence.

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I think the reason why AotC works well as a starting point for the prequel era is because of the 10 year gap between TPM and AotC that requires that people be reintroduced again and the setting be re-established. And the thing about TPM is that after this 10 year time period, the specifics of TPM become largely irrelevant.
Which specifics? The Naboo invasion? Yes. The other events I mentioned (and some others)? Still largely relevant.

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Actually, the interesting thing about AotC without TPM in this lineup is that the reveal of Sidious at the end of AotC is a huge "holy ****!" moment cause you just saw that guy talking to Darth Vader in the middle of ESB and he's still this really mysterious figure you know absolutely nothing about but you know he's this pure evil lurking in the background... and being more of a phantom menace than he is in TPM itself o.o
Really? I think TPM gave me the same (or even better) dramatic effect, specially when he's introduced as a shadowy hologram who the Neimoidians fear.

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And you're right about the only stand alone movies being TPM and ANH, but in my view, AotC and RotS being preceded by ANH and ESB takes the place of TPM in explaining who these people are and why they matter because all of these characters and events are talked about in those two movies already.
As I said above, it doesn't explain many important concepts present in the other prequels.

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So no, I wouldn't get people to watch only ESB and RotJ or only AotC and RotS, instead I feel that ANH and ESB make a better substitute to give people all the information they need to know who the people are in AotC and RotS and the events that are transpiring since the events that happen are so closely linked, the Clone Wars and Anakin's fall to the dark side being the most important key points.

So because TPM and ANH are capable of being stand alone, that means that if people want more Star Wars, they can always watch TPM if they're interested... it'd be no different than seeing a prequel (lol) movie of a series that just happened to have a flashback part in the middle of it.
The difference is that in this case you're showing an incomplete flashback sequence.

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It also made RotJ SO DAMN AWESOME. I mean, seriously, that downer you get from the end of RotS just makes the high at the end of RotJ just that much higher.
No arguments there.



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Old 11-24-2012, 01:30 PM   #25
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- Palpatine rising to power is a non-issue, he's Chancellor and the Republic he's leading is falling apart, that's all that really matters when you begin AotC... the plot twist being that he is the one who is doing it all, as we all know.

- The "chosen one" plot beginning is lost, agreed, though not a movie-breaking loss considering Syfodias managed to create an entire plot point on his own with the total existence of the Clone Army without having ever existing in the movies until he is mentioned in AotC. Anakin's past as a slave and his mother is another loss, yes.

- Anakin being denied is already played out in AotC and RotS, no loss, just slightly different motivational structure through his own arrogance rather than his own belief as the chosen one.

- Anakin's background comes from ANH and ESB, it's not bland at all.

- ESB didn't actually have lines relating to who Luke, Leia and Han were, it took the RotS route of assuming you knew who these characters were. There are a lot of very key lines in the opening of AotC which give exposition as to who these people are and how they relate to each other which ESB does not have.

- The events of TPM tell of a Republic that is being destabilised due to a dark force acting in the background. The events of AotC tell of a Republic that is being destabilised due to a dark force acting in the background. And yes, those two sentences were intentional.

- Not all concepts need to be explicitly explained, again, the destabilisation of the Republic doesn't need to be reiterated twice in two different ways.

- It's incomplete with TPM in the mix too... That's why we should all be FORCED to watch both series of the Clone Wars from start to finish in timeline order

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Old 11-26-2012, 02:20 PM   #26
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You know, you could go the route of IV, I, II, V, III, VI.

I mean the first two episodes don't reveal anything more than Anakin being like what the stories of him were. A hero, impatient, but still a hero and an ace pilot... It left the third movie to tell the story of how he became Vader. I mean II still ended with Luke's parents being in love, but no kiddos yet. Everything was still happy(mostly).


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Old 11-26-2012, 03:03 PM   #27
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The problem I see with that order is that it's constantly skipped back and forth from OT era and PT era.

It also ends up establishing Sidious/Palpatine too early for him to remain this mysterious force in the background that he is in ESB. I also think Anakin would be introduced too early as too. Up till ESB, I feel that people should only know Darth Vader and not know anything about Anakin Skywalker until they find out that Vader is Luke's father and actually was Anakin Skywalker to begin with because it actually gives the excuse to have that flashback between ESB and RotJ.

The best thing about having the PT "flashback" after ESB is that at the end of ESB, are heroes' are at their lowest point while at the end of ANH, they're on top of the world. That big gab between ESB and RotJ with AotC and RotS increases the anticipation of RotJ so they can see how the OT heroes' finally face down the result of the dark things that happened in the past.

So yeah, the biggest key factor as to the order from every way I look at it is that the contents of ESB must be guarded as much as possible and to reveal Anakin Skywalker's true nature after the fact, not before.

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Old 11-26-2012, 03:29 PM   #28
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But here's the thing, After episode IV, it's an end. You can stop watching Star Wars right there and still love Star Wars. Episode 1 and 2 draw you back to the Republic, before the Empire. Palpy isn't the Emperor. If you watch Episode V then immediately watch II and III you can still reasonably guess that he is the Emperor. Watching I II and then V he's still just the Chancelor. Plus this gives a bit more weight to the first introduction of Boba Fett, and Jango Fett. It establishes the link between Luke and Anakin, but doesn't explain how Darth Vader killed Anakin. I could agree to 4,2,5,3,6 and leave out 1 as a separate Star Wars movie. Though if I were to really go at it, I'd do a hack and slash of I II and III into IV, V and VI so as to preserve all of the elements, and cut out Padme's death, to preserve that part of the movies.


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Old 11-26-2012, 04:24 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
But here's the thing, After episode IV, it's an end. You can stop watching Star Wars right there and still love Star Wars.
But that's the problem right there, because ANH is so self contained it basically puts you into a dead stop which you then have to start back up again with TPM, then you end up switching gears yet again for ESB which in turns ends up separating AotC from RotS which I think is a bad idea considering the momentum the two generate with each other back to back.

Quote:
Episode 1 and 2 draw you back to the Republic, before the Empire. Palpy isn't the Emperor. If you watch Episode V then immediately watch II and III you can still reasonably guess that he is the Emperor. Watching I II and then V he's still just the Chancelor.
The only scene in ESB where you ever see "The Emperor" is the short holo-conversation he has with Vader and that's it. We know nothing about him other than he's "The Emperor" and that he's apparently a more evil person than Vader. When you hit AotC right after watching ESB, there is absolutely no connection between Chancellor Palpatine and Darth Sidious who you only see at the very end of AotC when he speaks to Dooku who is revealed to be Darth Tyranus. Furthermore, with the exclusion of TPM, the limiting of screen time of Darth Sidious and the then Senator Palpatine makes Sidious who becomes "The Emperor" a more mysterious figure and removes any kind of hinted foreshadowing that Palpatine may be the same person. And finally, you have to remember that this order is really for first time viewers who haven't mulled over all of the facts... not once in the Star Wars movies is it said that the Emperor is "Emperor Palpatine" and when a first time viewer is watching, there's very little chance, and far less chance in this order, that they'll make the connection unless they're pretty clever. Personally, I'd like to try to minimise the suggestions as much as possible until RotS when it is finally revealed.

Quote:
Plus this gives a bit more weight to the first introduction of Boba Fett, and Jango Fett.
As much as I personally love those two characters, their importance to the first viewing of Star Wars is not important at all considering they're really just plot devices more than anything else.

Quote:
It establishes the link between Luke and Anakin, but doesn't explain how Darth Vader killed Anakin.
Establishing a link between Luke and Anakin is important, which is why it's an important reason why I think TPM should be left out since both Luke and Anakin are around the same age, making them more relate-able to each other, when you see them without TPM's young Anakin... though all the skipping around is a problem...

Quote:
I could agree to 4,2,5,3,6 and leave out 1 as a separate Star Wars movie. Though if I were to really go at it, I'd do a hack and slash of I II and III into IV, V and VI so as to preserve all of the elements, and cut out Padme's death, to preserve that part of the movies.
Again, it jumps around way too much between the two era's if you go 4,2,5,3,6. At least with 4,5,2,3,6 you have two OT era movies, two PT era movies, and then RotJ which suddenly becomes a meeting of both OT and PT as the finale.

I also don't think edits would really be a good idea since the entire point of this ordering is to make it easy for anyone who has the home video release versions of Star Wars (DVD and Blu-ray) to enjoy the movies this way... and even with the really terrible "she's just loss the will to live" death, I certainly wouldn't cut out Padme's death.

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