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Old 10-29-2013, 10:44 PM   #41
Lynk Former
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*kicks it out of LF*

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Old 10-29-2013, 11:11 PM   #42
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I don't enter kavar's often but I have on the rare occasion I needed advice that the limited perspective of the people I know in real life couldn't give me. The people of this forum have been almost like a family to me and its one of the few places on the Internet I trust to at least try and help. Even though Im not active there I would be saddened to see it close down.
If I ever caused a big issue with it-I know one of my threads had been quite controversial- I apologize.




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Old 10-29-2013, 11:20 PM   #43
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I've checked out Kavar's Corner a few times and have seen a few threads that I wanted to voice my opinion on, but I always decide not to. It would end up in an argument or a never ending debate, not to mention some people will forever judge you on this forum because of your beliefs. I feel it's better to just discuss KOTOR, other games, and more easy going topics. Everyone gets along that way and any disagreement is minor and doesn't continue on into the future.


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Old 10-29-2013, 11:35 PM   #44
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Ugh. Kavar's. I never mean to post, but sometimes I just can't help it.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:38 AM   #45
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I never understood the specific reason for having two serious topic subforums within the whole LF network. You got the Senate Chambers over in the JediKnight forums and Kavar's in the KoTOR forum. Although I heard it had something to do with the level of nastiness that goes on in these two subforums. One was supposedly better than the other one at not being so intense (Kavar's), but I never really noticed the difference to tell anybody the truth. Seems like the behavior in Kavar's was just as bad.


One is enough if you ask me. Preferably the Senate Chambers if there has to be at least one subforum for serious topics. I think Kavar's does need to go or be kicked, which ever is the preferred method. But then comes the question of what you would do with all of the remaining threads in Kavar's, including the ones that are currently active - move them over into the Senate Chambers, I guess?

I don't know, not sure how this website does things.


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Old 10-30-2013, 01:00 AM   #46
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The reason we have different sections in LF, such as different general/off-topic forum sections is because each section was home to a particular web site forum. Back before 2001, before LucasForums was created, all of the individual video game forums had their own separate forums under their own domains. Inside these separate forums, there were different members and communities. I originally started off as a member of the RogueSquadron.net forum, that's where my forum account existed before the big merger into LucasForums.

That's ultimately the reason why LF is so split up with different community bases and such.

That model is old and outdated and holds no meaning for us any more. I think it's really part of what's holding this place back... it's huge, has lots of different sections, all of which are empty of any kind of activity.

If this place is to move forward, we need to be more focused in our approach and consolidate things down to a much easier to manage structure so that people don't get lost in all of these really ancient foundations where no one really goes any more.

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Old 10-30-2013, 01:18 AM   #47
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Hey I just thought of something...maybe we all should have a debate about this in Kavar's.


@Lynk: I see, yeah that was way before my time here and I agree with the ideal of consolidation. That would make it much easier to navigate through the forums. Good idea.


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Old 10-30-2013, 10:26 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
Jeff's brought up a good point. Just because LucasArts is dead, that doesn't mean that everything is over. There are new movies coming out and new games too. The death of LA may end up being the thing that saves us in the long run since... well, LA wasn't really doing much of anything in the past.

I'm hoping to whatever I can to bring this place back to life and get some fresh faces into the forums. I have a few ideas and designs floating around here (the SWK redesign I posted about a while back was just one of the things I've worked on that I haven't shown the members) and we do have ideas for the future to get this place back on track (provided we can find the time to implement them).

The things we lack to make it happen is time and manpower... though at this stage, I think most people are simply waiting for me to come up with something before they commit to anything... so I guess I'll try to have something to show in the next few months (I hope)... here's hoping.


It probably wouldn't hurt to have member feedback as well. Pretty much everyone left here has been around for quite a long time and I'm sure most of you want to see this place go on, so feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Maybe we can pool together our collective intelligence and come up with something great. Instead of lamenting times that have been and how great this place used to be, it's a much better idea to actually come up with ideas we can use to rebuild this place into something better than it is and was.

So, lay them on me... suggestions, feedback, ideas, whatever... how can we ensure LFN stays around for another 15 years or so and is better than it ever was in the past?
Have been thinking about this.

By my observation, most of the remaining member base employs lurking as their primary function, ostensibly because of lack of activity. An obvious solution is to simply encourage everyone to post more threads - but, about what? If you think about posting in threads, the reason people post is usually relatablilty of topics, due to shared/common experience, or interest. Most topics in the last few years have been hit-and-miss in this regard, most likely due to the fact that as time has passed, the member base has grown apart in life experience, going different ways, doing different things.

The solution seems to me to be something that would bring everyone back together -to give shared experience; be at center of common interest; something that everyone can have a good time talk about.

Well, how about the game(s) that brought us here in the first place?

We're in the SWK forum. How long has it been since everyone played KotOR? For me, its a few months, but was years, before that.

Imagine this: we take an upcoming time period, eg a month, and we name it "KotOR month": a time were everyone is encouraged to dust off, reinstall, and play the grand old game - together (in the same general time period). From there, everyone's encouraged to make threads/posts about the shared experience. Threads on builds, thoughts from playing the game after so long, comparisons of first time playthroughs to current ones.

On analysis, shared experience is the main factor involved in forum activity/growth. It's why currently popular forums are so, and what made LF alive and well in its day. It happens naturally with video game forums because of public game releases, but what if it was artificially simulated via special event?

Because of our low numbers of regulars, this would only work here if enough people agreed to join in ("sign up", as it were).

Such a thing wouldn't be designed to bring more members in/make the forum grow, but rather stimulate more activity from the existing base. It's not a final solution, but I think would be a good start to getting the forum going again.

Thoughts/opinions?



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Old 10-30-2013, 10:38 AM   #49
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Interestingly, I found and still find Kavar's to be an integral part of what I thought made LFN so awesome back in the day: this was an actual, vibrant, community. There were multiple games to talk about and troubleshoot and mod that were at their height or at least still relevant and played. There were sections for off-topic, and even serious places like Kavar's. Diversity is wonderful, and although I understand the difficulty of moderation there it is part of the whole.

Just my 2c, I would still bang around in here without Grumpy Place.


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Old 10-30-2013, 11:43 AM   #50
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I still lurk about here, even though I'm not a veteran member to begin with. I generally come back here when I'm doing replays of a Star Wars game, typically KotOR 1/2 or (currently) SWTOR. I'd probably post on the official SWTOR forum if I didn't for some reason get a message that I'm not allowed to make new threads or write posts o_O Maybe you can only do that if you're a sub or something?

But there is still life to this place, as has been said. Mostly lurkers, though, or people who, like me, drift back when they're gaming Star Wars style.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:55 AM   #51
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I see three possible scenarios.

One, we wait for LucasArts ElectronicArts to make new St- oh god i can't even bring myself to finish the sentence

Two, we convert LucasForums into LucasForumr, a hot new social webapp that allows you to be in control of the conversation, with dynamic, fresh, hot, SEO, keyword, viagra and integration with Twitter, Google+ and Foobcake.

Three, we negotiate a deal with EviLore and merge LucasForums with NeoGAF to form NeoLucasCamelCaseForumGaf.


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Old 10-30-2013, 12:09 PM   #52
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I vote LucasForumr

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Old 10-30-2013, 12:22 PM   #53
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:57 PM   #54
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As I am an avowed darksider, I want to see more Star Wars games, EA or not. xD Also, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Disney/EA is contracting with Bioware to make a new SP Star Wars game (post-2015). Of course, if that's true, it's probably old news here >.>
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Old 10-30-2013, 02:12 PM   #55
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@ Sabre: Diabolical!

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Old 10-30-2013, 02:33 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_Ciao View Post
Also, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Disney/EA is contracting with Bioware to make a new SP Star Wars game (post-2015). Of course, if that's true, it's probably old news here >.>
Indeed, at present we know of three games in various stages of development.

DICE's game is Battlefront III, expected to release 2015.

BioWare's game will almost certainly be an SRPG. I imagine they will move to developing it full-time after DA3 is finished next year, and the full release may well take place after the fourth Mass Effect game. So yeah, we're looking at 2015/16 here.

That leaves Visceral's game, which inside sources tell me will be Yoda Stories II, available in a few months for iOS, Android and Online.


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Old 10-30-2013, 02:38 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
Indeed, at present we know of three games in various stages of development.

DICE's game is Battlefront III, expected to release 2015.

BioWare's game will almost certainly be an SRPG. I imagine they will move to developing it full-time after DA3 is finished next year, and the full release may well take place after the fourth Mass Effect game. So yeah, we're looking at 2015/16 here.

That leaves Visceral's game, which inside sources tell me will be Yoda Stories II, available in a few months for iOS, Android and Online.
Cool, thanks for the confirmation and additional info! I haven't even heard of Yoda Stories I lol. Ooh, this is my 100th post! Kudos to me! >.>
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:59 PM   #58
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I think many of us still poke our heads regularly - in my case I'm still around, but generally it's a flying visit to see if anything interesting is being discussed, and half the time now I don't have time to read things properly before I have to worry about something away from the computer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
If this place is to move forward, we need to be more focused in our approach and consolidate things down to a much easier to manage structure so that people don't get lost in all of these really ancient foundations where no one really goes any more.
I think consolidation is a great idea.

And regarding Kavar's, I must admit I did play a part in some of the hostility and unpleasantness - and when I look back on my own activity there, I regret most of it. Maybe regret is too strong a word, but I'm not proud of many of my contributions.






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Old 10-30-2013, 05:08 PM   #59
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Quote:
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I think consolidation is a great idea.
I concur.

<steeples fingers>

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Old 10-30-2013, 05:13 PM   #60
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Yeah that would work for some of the forums...others, not so much. It would however been welcomed to me for selfish reasons. I am tired of killing spambots the same time every day in the same dead forums.


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Old 10-31-2013, 09:16 PM   #61
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I joined initially as someone hopeful for a KOTOR3. I'd seen bits of KOTOR2 from a friend (now my roommate) on XBOX the winter it was released. I bought KOTOR 1 soon thereafter in '05 but left it be for quite awhile.

In late '06 to busy my mind from other things I was dealing with at the time, I made my debut here. Then I had a long absence from LF for awhile.

Came back and for awhile I couldn't get enough. Life has steadily drawn me away. But LF is sort of my baby. Or rather it was--its all grown up now. So I come back to check up on it.

Being on this forum has been something of personal growth for me. I cringe at some of my past posts but also realize it was personal growth and learning.

It's said sarcasm doesn't translate very well through text online, written medium, or otherwise. And yet I learned it here. I would always have trouble understanding it before, spoken in person and unable to distinguish sarcasm from serious. My spoken communication (and written) have improved for it.

I also learned a bit of self control. It's okay that people don't agree with me. In fact life beforehand was about being a social anomaly for me.

There's some people I met here whom I will definitely keep contact with outside LF.

I also save pages and archives of the modding subforum. I have mod projects going but like many projects and things I guess I don't take it seriously enough...or this that and he other thing are preventing me from doing it. Or it's simply remembering to get around to it.

Though it'd be nice if I could once again find the audacity VST plugin for the green box/army recon effect. My Audacity1.3 doesn't seem to want to start anymore and I'm afraid if I uninstall-reinstall, all the VST plugins will go bye-bye. I was making an HK droid voice demo for a newbie.


@ Astor: I praise your humility on that front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canderis View Post
I don't enter kavar's often but I have on the rare occasion I needed advice that the limited perspective of the people I know in real life couldn't give me. The people of this forum have been almost like a family to me and its one of the few places on the Internet I trust to at least try and help. Even though Im not active there I would be saddened to see it close down.
If I ever caused a big issue with it-I know one of my threads had been quite controversial- I apologize.
You know something I had been meaning to reply to a thread of yours but was never sure how you looked at me or anyone else here. I'll keep that in mind.


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Old 11-01-2013, 12:59 AM   #62
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I think consolidation is a great idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime View Post
I concur.

<steeples fingers>


Show spoiler


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Old 11-01-2013, 04:15 AM   #63
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Show spoiler

*laughs; cries; cowers in corner*



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Old 11-01-2013, 07:54 AM   #64
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Right now, there are a lot of ideas floating around, but I'll make sure to discuss it with other staff and see what they think... and definitely discuss it with all of the members too since ultimately we'd be doing this for you guys and the continuing future of LFN.

...The problem is that I don't know whether it's achievable with the current availability of staff. We're talking about a pretty big overhaul and that requires a lot of work. One of the reasons why the updated SWK site design didn't go up (the one I posted not too long ago) was because there wasn't enough people available to convert stuff over from the old design to the new one.

So while we can make all the plans we want... getting it all done is another thing entirely.

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Old 11-01-2013, 04:27 PM   #65
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Quote:
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Right now, there are a lot of ideas floating around, but I'll make sure to discuss it with other staff and see what they think... and definitely discuss it with all of the members too since ultimately we'd be doing this for you guys and the continuing future of LFN.

...The problem is that I don't know whether it's achievable with the current availability of staff. We're talking about a pretty big overhaul and that requires a lot of work. One of the reasons why the updated SWK site design didn't go up (the one I posted not too long ago) was because there wasn't enough people available to convert stuff over from the old design to the new one.

So while we can make all the plans we want... getting it all done is another thing entirely.
Any way I can help, let me know!



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Old 11-01-2013, 05:32 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
Right now, there are a lot of ideas floating around, but I'll make sure to discuss it with other staff and see what they think... and definitely discuss it with all of the members too since ultimately we'd be doing this for you guys and the continuing future of LFN.

...The problem is that I don't know whether it's achievable with the current availability of staff. We're talking about a pretty big overhaul and that requires a lot of work. One of the reasons why the updated SWK site design didn't go up (the one I posted not too long ago) was because there wasn't enough people available to convert stuff over from the old design to the new one.

So while we can make all the plans we want... getting it all done is another thing entirely.
I'd be happy to help in any way I can.


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Old 11-01-2013, 11:41 PM   #67
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It's sad that there seems to be more random posts and less about KOTOR these days. Of course there aren't many of those posts either. Don't get me wrong those types of posts are appreciated and needed to have some variety, but the main focus should always be the games the forum is about, the reason we're all here.


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Old 11-02-2013, 12:08 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sith Sizzle View Post
It's sad that there seems to be more random posts and less about KOTOR these days. Of course there aren't many of those posts either. Don't get me wrong those types of posts are appreciated and needed to have some variety, but the main focus should always be the games the forum is about, the reason we're all here.
There has always been way more posts about anything but kotor here. At least as long as I've been here.




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Old 11-02-2013, 11:46 AM   #69
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Quote:
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I must admit I did play a part in some of the hostility and unpleasantness - and when I look back on my own activity there, I regret most of it. Maybe regret is too strong a word, but I'm not proud of many of my contributions.
This forum is a statement to how well I have matured and improved my grammar over the years. I am appalled at some posts; The moon landing was a hoax and "the blacks" have too much power. That is what listening to conspiracy theorists and racists here in Manchester will do to you...


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Old 11-02-2013, 12:16 PM   #70
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Thanks for the interest in helping... I think the first thing to do is to get ideas, suggestions, whatever from the community. Ithink I'll start a new thread for that entirely so we can makei it a bit more prominant

Of course, with that said, everything is informal at the moment. I have ideas of my own but having ideas coming from just me isn't good. I'm sure there are people in the community that can come up with some good stuff if they thought about it.

The whole process should be productive since it may spark some things and also allow everyone involved to help shape this place for the future and feel a little more invested in what goes rather than some guy in the background pulling all the strings.

I'll post a thread soon, look out for it...

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Old 11-02-2013, 12:43 PM   #71
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Quote:
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This forum is a statement to how well I have matured and improved my grammar over the years. I am appalled at some posts; The moon landing was a hoax and "the blacks" have too much power. That is what listening to conspiracy theorists and racists here in Manchester will do to you...
Haha if you think that some of your posts are a reflection on a lack of maturity, imagine what it feels like for this 23-year-old to look back at some of the posts he made when he was 13. /facepalm lol



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Old 11-02-2013, 05:19 PM   #72
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Lucasforums.....Lucasforums.....sounds familiar. Since getting sucked into the blackhole called SWTOR, I've only come back here (lurking or otherwise) very infrequently. I'm not very familiar w/the skpe posse uproar, but do remember threads getting nasty in '08. Considered quitting, but not out of anger, more like concern about moderation issues. Not the type to roll over easily anyway (as several here can attest. ). Do recall several people obsessing about that issue, but had enough faith in most of mods I dealt w/to not be dbags that I stayed on. It's been bumpy at times, but no regrets. While I don't think that KC necessarily needs to be kicked, people should check their egos and just accept that sometimes you can't convince the other guy to see things your way and avoid taking things personally. To Purifier's point about nastiness, there was some in KC, but the senate was much more aggressive in that way w/a more detached moderating style than you got in KC. But given that people will fight about anything given the chance (and even take it personally), I'd just say.....read content and if not your cup of tea....avoid area altogether. Other thing I'd say on that is to remember that most of us don't know each other irl, so why worry about what a stranger (you'll likely never even meet) thinks of you. Just post or not as the whim hits you and avoid ad hominem battles whatever the subject material/thread. Or accept you may have to take as good as you give and maybe even be banned for your trouble. That said, I generally agree that till a new game that catches fire w/people here comes out, it'll just hum along.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:08 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf View Post
Lucasforums.....Lucasforums.....sounds familiar. Since getting sucked into the blackhole called SWTOR, I've only come back here (lurking or otherwise) very infrequently. I'm not very familiar w/the skpe posse uproar, but do remember threads getting nasty in '08. Considered quitting, but not out of anger, more like concern about moderation issues. Not the type to roll over easily anyway (as several here can attest. ). Do recall several people obsessing about that issue, but had enough faith in most of mods I dealt w/to not be dbags that I stayed on. It's been bumpy at times, but no regrets. While I don't think that KC necessarily needs to be kicked, people should check their egos and just accept that sometimes you can't convince the other guy to see things your way and avoid taking things personally. To Purifier's point about nastiness, there was some in KC, but the senate was much more aggressive in that way w/a more detached moderating style than you got in KC. But given that people will fight about anything given the chance (and even take it personally), I'd just say.....read content and if not your cup of tea....avoid area altogether. Other thing I'd say on that is to remember that most of us don't know each other irl, so why worry about what a stranger (you'll likely never even meet) thinks of you. Just post or not as the whim hits you and avoid ad hominem battles whatever the subject material/thread. Or accept you may have to take as good as you give and maybe even be banned for your trouble. That said, I generally agree that till a new game that catches fire w/people here comes out, it'll just hum along.
Wait, what issue in '08 are you referring to?



If I die today, I'm happy how my life turned out
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:50 AM   #74
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Right before the election of our reigning monarch.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 11-03-2013, 03:37 AM   #75
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Wait, what issue in '08 are you referring to?
I think this thread was more or the less what it came down to and more or less settled the matter.

It involved wonderful terms like "open civil war", "neo-communist democracy", "gothic mysticist", "disbanding Kavar's", and "festive pagan clockwork".


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Old 11-03-2013, 04:22 AM   #76
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Reading over that thread now... it's almost like the staff members are a military dictatorship conspiring to enslave the civilian population and there are civilian revolutionaries poised to take over and form a righteous civilian government to instate sweeping reforms for the good of everyone.

This is exactly why this place should just simply be about video games and nothing more.

Everything spiraled out of control when people started to get way too serious about this place. Video games = fun. All of this politics crap got in the way of that and ended up taking away any sense of fun this place ever had.

After all, without all of the politics talk, who would've cared about whether a moderator talked to a member in a private space if all that they'd ever talked about in public on the forum was video games? No one would have cared... and how do I know this? Because before The Senate and Kavar's, when people did just talk about video games all day, many people formed different friendship groups and no one cared. Staff and members interacted on many different levels inside and out of LF and it was all find and dandy because the only thing going through anyones minds was the constant discussion of video games.

As soon as we started to talk about more than just that, started going into the arena of politics and the like, all of these conspiracy theories and accusations of various things started popping up.

We went from talking about video games to accusing each other of "forum treason"...

Of course, while it has caused a problem, the bigger issues isn't the forum itself, rather with LucasArts. Crazies have come and gone from LF all the time in its prime, but it didn't really matter because during its hayday, LucasArts was still producing a number of games worth mentioning and lots of new people were coming in. There was a lot of activity everywhere on the forum and everyone went about their business.

However, things began to stagnate when LucasArts fell silent and stopped producing new games worth even talking about. New membership slowed down to barely nothing and the talk of video games fell almost silent. The people who were left banded together and stuck around for whatever reason and the talk of video games began to die down as well, at the same time while video games became a background topic, talk of politics and other more personal topics came into the foreground.

All of that ended up accumulating to that whole conspiracy asshattery, staff vs members, talks of cliques and such. Hell, the people who accused others of forming cliques were forming their own cliques in a glorious orgy of hypocracy, it was great.

So yeah, personally, I would like to change this place, get rid of the things that have brought us down and go back to the entire point of the LucasArts Fan Network. 1. Discuss and enjoy the legacy left behind by LucasArts and look forward to future Star Wars games and 2. Video games in general.

Also, for those of you who have ever wondered about what anyone on Skype talks about... we mostly talk about one thing. VIDEO GAMES. AMAZING!








I sometimes feel like I'm the only one who actually plays and enjoys video games around here a lot of the time. Am I?









EDIT: Also, just in case anyone is wondering. Yes, LF has always been a "military dictatorship"... this is NOT a democracy nor will it ever be a democracy. That said, we're also not trying to enslave anyone, all we've ever tried to do here as staff is run a bunch of fan sites and a fan forum about LucasArts and... you guessed, allow people to talk about VIDEO GAMES.

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Old 11-03-2013, 04:36 AM   #77
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EDIT: Yes, LF has always been a "military dictatorship"... this is NOT a democracy nor will it ever be a democracy.
always been a Galactic Empire*
NOT a Republic*


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Old 11-03-2013, 05:08 AM   #78
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This is the first Forum I ever became an actual member of, and I've come here nearly every day since, there may not be new games, it may be a pretty labyrinthine set up (several different sites glued together with spread out pockets of users) But sometimes , I want to discuss whether Revan was more powerful than Sidious, or just read old threads. But I do think we need an overhaul, we need to make one unified forum and just have subforums for our beloved games but with an emphasis on including or promoting a more general Lucas fandom... So we are still Lucasforums but someone who likes the comics and novels will come here too.


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Old 11-03-2013, 05:20 AM   #79
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Frankly, a lot of the meltdown occurred while I sat on the sidelines. While I didn't trust some staff people to be fair, I figured that most of them were based on my experiences dealing w/them. I agree there was a certain amount of paranoia floating around, some justified some not. However, I don't agree that the forum should ONLY be about video games b/c that is too restrictive in the end (even if the politics stuff is dumped, there're still other things to talk about). Still, if everyone (staff and forumites alike) show each other mutual respect, there's no reason all the bs ever have to occur again. Anytime someone has a strong opinion about something (including vidya) there's potential for conflict b/c people get their noses out of joint over just about anything. Frankly, I always thought the staff was a communist dictatorship that saw the rest of us as proles to be abused and manipulated at will.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 11-03-2013, 07:17 AM   #80
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You make some fair points there Lynk... that said, I do believe discussions about politics, religion and other assorted personal views would pop up regardless of subforums like Kavar's. Once a forum gets big enough It's bound to attract all sorts of people, even those who enjoy debating about "heavier" issues while taking a break from all the vidya discussion. Godwin's law and all, y'all!

The debates haven't been all bad either, I remember particularly enjoying posts by SkinWalker in the Senate for example - learned a lot from that dude. Maybe some pruning is at hand though, we definitely need some positive changes around here and I'd be happy to help out as well if I can.

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