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Old 11-03-2013, 10:40 AM   #81
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I don't enter kavar's often but I have on the rare occasion I needed advice that the limited perspective of the people I know in real life couldn't give me. The people of this forum have been almost like a family to me and its one of the few places on the Internet I trust to at least try and help. Even though Im not active there I would be saddened to see it close down.
This is still my stance on kavar's. Maybe we should remove the strictly political debate part of it, but I still believe we need a place for serious topics. Most people don't want to see them, but they'll show up in one place or another. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps the moderation unit for that section could do bans from that particular part of the forum. If they get too rowdy and 3 moderators see that and think it is significant, they get locked out of that forum. I don't really know how bad it gets in there but I know we have to have some section for serious topics.




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Old 11-03-2013, 12:20 PM   #82
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In regards to "only talking about video games"... I didn't mean that so strictly to mean ONLY video games and nothing else. Pop culture topics, comics, music, topics that are of a certain kind are all well and good. There are plenty of things to discuss without going into peoples political beliefs, etc. When we fight over if Indiana Jones is a cooler character than Han Solo and people get into an argument over it, it's not personal, when people start arguing about their religious faith or lack thereof... that opens up a huge nightmare, especially for the staff.

You guys have to understand that the staff members are all volunteers who are taking care of this place in their spare time. We're not being paid to do any of this stuff and sure, we're not perfect, but most of the people who have been chosen to become staff members are good people trying to manage this place. And the criticisms you have of the staff? You're right, the staff had no way of properly running a forum with a community like that.

But to be perfectly fair, even if the people who were criticising the staff back then and probably still do now put their own people in charge of this entire place, they wouldn't be the right people for the job either.

The forum was put into a no-win situation and only made the attrition rate because of the lack of LucasArts activity a lot worse than it probably should have been.






Look, the bottom line is that as well intentioned as we were, the staff of a video game forum had no business trying to moderate political discussions, end of story. It may have been fine and dandy for a short period of time, but things escalated out of hand in both The Senate and Kavar's many times... that should tell you something.

Finally, if people really feel like they need a Kavar's then I don't see why it can't be off-site and not controlled by the staff of this forum. It doesn't have to be officially connected to LFN, you can tell members from here that if they're interested then there is another forum that a few people have banded together to set up to deal with heavier discussions like this. That way there's a buffer between the lines so that whatever happens on that forum stays on that forum and we can have an easier time talking about much lighter things on this end.



They key here is to figure out what is and isn't appropriate for this video game forum... and we've crossed the lines into places far too inappropriate for this place far too many times.

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Old 11-03-2013, 12:29 PM   #83
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Also @ Pheonix: The issue isn't that these topics would pop up any way even if places like Kavar's didn't exist. The issue is that we escalated those kinds of topics into a major point of focus and attention by creating a subforum dedicated to them.

The very act of creating subforums dedicated to those kinds of topics encouraged certain people to stay who hold certain values. So right now we have a lot of people in here who value a place like Kavar's... and while I personally don't have a problem with anyone here, I would rather people who valued talking about video games and couldn't care any less about politics to find there way here and decide to stay... that is what we need the most right now and in the future.

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Old 11-04-2013, 12:56 PM   #84
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Here's the problem with removing places like Kavars. If there isn't that place, it'll spill over to places where it is harder for others to ignore. And really, there are some good topics in there that promote thought. Sure there is nastiness, but that happens when you have differing political views, and two people who would likely agree, but are having difficulty explaining that point to each other. And of course there are those people who are diametrically opposed on issues. I love reading about video games. They just don't inspire me to post about them. According to your assessment, I should go, because a place like Kavars has me stay.


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Old 11-04-2013, 01:37 PM   #85
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I've had my issues with this place. Boy, have I had issues. But I'm not the stunted, frustrated adolescent I was back in 2005. I genuinely lament the potential friendships I let my immaturity prevent me from making with some really awesome people. There was actually a time I'd have loved to see this place fail, because all I cared about was my own selfish satisfaction. That's nowhere near the case anymore - I feel I owe this community, its members, and its leaders something in return for all the drama I've inspired over the last 8 years. Drama that likely only still matters to me, probably.

I think part of what keeps an online community thriving is the sense of... well, community. The very thing that's kept many of our older members, myself included, coming back even just as lurkers is what we need to focus on in order to make this place hum again. It has to be about more than the games and movies. Anything we can do to encourage the forging of relationships with the people behind the avatars should be our top priority.

I feel we need something a little more personal sometimes than the "Getting to Know You" thread. I know the old SWKnights website had a chatroom, and I know that many members forged friendships through it that stand quite apart from LucasForums itself now. And yes, I'm aware that one or more the people in this group became a problem for a number of members who felt excluded, alienated, paranoid, blah blah drama blah. The point is that it was not the existence of these friendships that led to the ensuing drama. The problem was that these perfectly wonderful people were forced to take their discussions and growing social circle to a more technologically reliable medium inaccessible directly from the forums themselves, creating the illusion of an exclusionist clique. If we could find a more reliable way of engaging each other in chatroom style discussions, I think that alone could go a long way towards making the community feel a lot warmer and more approachable - as it is now, all a new member sees is the dozens of different message boards each with a dozen or more areas with hundreds or thousands of topics. It's a little intimidating making your first post, regardless of how you do it. It's a lot easier for someone to say hi in a chatroom and get their feet wet, as it were, before diving into the forums themselves. I know for a fact that such chat interfaces exist for vBulletin, as I've been a member of vB forums that've used them in the past. There must be one that would allow for friendly, open conversation with simple moderation tools.

Another important element towards community building is to eliminate the mysticism and stigma, perceived or otherwise, surrounding moderation - and with it the drama that's so often ensued from moderation decisions here over the years. Now, I'm not saying turn the community into some sort of "E-mocracy" or whatever. But LF is one of the oddest forums I've ever seen as far as the attitude towards moderation is concerned. Everything done by moderators is a closely guarded secret, labelled as irrelevant to the community at large and not a topic to be discussed. And sure, maybe that's how it should be. I mean, it doesn't matter to StarWarsFan1337 that BobbyFett12 got banned for pirating Jedi Academy. But the fact is that you don't have to make the moderator's boards and discussions visible to all members to be open about the resulting decisions. Take a look at the Nexus forums, for example. Warnings, bans, rule and policy changes, etc. are all posted in locked threads in a public forum, visible - but not open - to all members. It lets the average member feel informed and trusted rather than condescended to, without giving them licence to debate any and every decision a moderator could make. It may seem like a little thing, but it goes a long way towards building a much needed trust and respect between members and moderators, which no one can deny has been a sensitive and recurring issue here in the past.

I could be accused of bias when it comes to the creative boards here at LF. They're where I spent a great deal of my time over the years and where I met a number of people who are still my friends today. But I think part of what drags that section down is the stigma surrounding fan fiction, fan art, and text-based roleplaying. These kinds of boards need more than just someone to enforce the rules - I mean, the rules are pretty minimal in such boards. Basically so long as you don't involve genitals, your post is basically in the clear. What they need is leaders. Story builders to inspire new worlds and characters (Star Wars/LucasArts related or otherwise), community organisers to properly coordinate contests and events, and experienced artists/authors with the tools to help people who want to become better at what they enjoy. Make these boards a destination, not just a side show or extra feature. A properly cultivated creative community can stimulate any themed discussion boards. Let a creative community grow around and expand on an existing idea or universe, and you've got the makings of a thriving forum for years to come.

In the same vein, a community focussing on any specific theme - be it gaming, movies, television, or whatever - needs leaders who do more than just enforce the rules. And I don't think this community's leaders have been given the proper tools to be leaders beyond rule-related buttons. Disney's acquisition of LucasArts is probably the biggest news to happen to Star Wars since the prequel trilogy, and the news was broken in the form of a link to a third party website, in three or four different threads scattered across multiple forums about different elements of the same basic thing. I guess this comes down to the forum structure that's already been acknowledged multiple times as being outdated. But it's more than that - not only should we have one place where all discussions about these different elements can be seen at once, but we need people who will actually gather information as vital to the community's interest and tell people about it themselves rather than simply posting a link to a third party website and inviting comments. We should be the place people use as a source for such information, not a place where we say "I'll believe it when a reputable source says something". We should be a reputable source.

That's all I can think of for now. Though I'll definitely have the matter on my mind over the coming weeks, for sure. I'm definitely eager to help this place become a destination for fans again. It's a shadow of what it once was, but it's not too late to restore it to its glory days again.
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:37 PM   #86
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The Doctor's post has been moved from the "Want to help to create a new, better LucasArts Fan Network?" thread due to the obvious reason that I didn't want to turn that thread into a debate.


@ The Doctor: I'm curious... where are these other forums that have complete transparency when it comes to moderation where the moderators activities are public for the entire world to see? I would actually like to have links posted to these forums because you make it sound as if this is a common thing even when I have never in my life have seen any web community run in this manner.

It's a big internet, so I'm sure you can come up with many examples that I haven't even seen or considered that clearly show what you're talking about.



@ Tommycat: I'm terrible to bringing across what I'm trying to say, so I'm sure it seems that way. What I'm trying to say is that the overall forum culture started off valuing the discussion of video games, star wars and popular culture but slowly turned into a community that valued political discussion above all else.

While I have no problems with the people here who value political discussion above lighter topics, I feel that if we are to move forward as a community, we need to encourage new users who value discussion of video games as the top priority so we can change the overall forum culture back to what it was.

The reason why the forum culture has changed to a more political one is because, for years, we haven't had a peep out of LucasArts about any game worth talking about until it finally died and had to resort to other topics to survive. This is why I recommended to other staff members that we needed to keep Kavar's and The Senate around a few years back despite the fact that it turns the cultural direction of this place into a direction it shouldn't be going.

However for the future of LFN, we can't continue down that political path and we desperately need to encourage that video game focus so it is top priority again if we are to renew this entire network as a network dedicated to video games and the people who enjoy them.


The Doctor was saying how we need to restore this place back to its glory days. That's what I have in mind too, though in my mind, the glory days came a little earlier, when the culture and community valued the discussion of video games above all else, not the other way around.

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Old 11-04-2013, 03:00 PM   #87
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I've always enjoyed LF. Obviously, I haven't been an avid poster after all these years but I've been a reader (lurker?) on a regular basis. My favorite part about LF is the discussion of Star Wars games. I love reading the thoughts of those who also enjoyed KOTOR back in it's heyday, and over the years I've been involved in the Classic Games section with Alexrd, a forum member who I respect greatly. (Also, looking back at my posts, its scary seeing the teenager me's spelling and grammer...)

I'll admit, it seems LF has been on the decline. This makes me sad because it has been an enjoyable part of my internet browsing since 2004. I've seen the controversies that some say has caused a rift in the community, but I believe that Lucasarts' demise has had a greater effect of members losing interest in the community. Hopefully we will see some great things out of Disney... Regardless, I feel I should start posting more...
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:07 PM   #88
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@ Jamps: I feel that in a strange way, the death of LucasArts will actually end up being good for this network since we can dedicate it to the remembrance of a much loved developer and its legacy as well as looking forward to future works by a Disney owned LucasFilm.

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Old 11-04-2013, 03:16 PM   #89
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Interestingly enough, in the end, it's the paucity of games that has caused your vision to suffer, Lynk and not so much KC or even things like the senate. There are, what, close to 1000 people who've joined this forum (and I'd wager the % that left over political bs is a small one compared to those who've left b/c of lack of game content). Given that the subjects exist in different forums and people are free to browse the areas that interest them, the only real rule is the spin on Vegas.....what happens in KC/Senate stays there. Most of us are mature enough to be able to seperate the various areas and act accordingly. I think there's a place for both and perhaps if the developers would pump out more product, there'd be more to talk about on the gaming front as a result.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

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Old 11-04-2013, 03:24 PM   #90
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I love reading the thoughts of those who also enjoyed KOTOR back in it's heyday, and over the years I've been involved in the Classic Games section with Alexrd, a forum member who I respect greatly.
Thanks. The respect is mutual.



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Old 11-04-2013, 03:47 PM   #91
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@ The Doctor: I'm curious... where are these other forums that have complete transparency when it comes to moderation where the moderators activities are public for the entire world to see? I would actually like to have links posted to these forums because you make it sound as if this is a common thing even when I have never in my life have seen any web community run in this manner.

It's a big internet, so I'm sure you can come up with many examples that I haven't even seen or considered that clearly show what you're talking about.
The best example I could offer up would be the Nexus. But I believe you misunderstand my general meaning. Moderation is not an open book, fully transparent affair. Rather, the end result of the process is announced publicly rather than simply being done and forgotten. When a user is punished for a violation of the forum rules, the community at large is told specifically who and why. It's not like there's a constant news ticker of banned members or anything of course; and the community is not permitted to protest or discuss the issue - it's not a democratic process. Nor should it be. But the information is there and accessible. I know from personal experience here that when a member is banned the community at large rarely knows why, and isn't allowed to ask. Members simply vanish, and we're not allowed to ask why.

Another forum that had a similar practice was KotORForce. There, however, things were a little too public - announcements were not locked, and members consistently protested and discussed the issue long after the fact. Add to that an unsteady Administration team and uninterested moderators, and these threads could go unclosed for days, even weeks at a time. That forum sadly no longer exists, as the administrator gave up in the face of low registration almost two years ago now.

I've not been on other boards that announced bans or other punishments in quite the same way, but nor have I frequented a forum where merely asking about another member's ban was a bannable offense. It can be unnerving, that's all. And like I said, the best way to build a community is to build a trust between the staff and the members. Such a simple, straightforward approach goes miles towards doing this and harms no one.
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:48 PM   #92
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@ Tot: I know, I've said that the lack of LA/SW games is the true issue in a previous post. What I'm saying in my more recent posts is that going forward, if we want to renew LFN, we need to refocus on video games first and foremost. Perhaps a serious discussion forum may re-enter the picture in the future, but in terms of renewing this place, we need to get the cultural dynamic back to video games.

We no longer have the staff or resources to have our focus split any more, and if we are to see this place renewed, we need to narrow down the focus of this place to match the theme of this network.

Then, after we have established the next generation community base, that is the time when things like a serious discussion forum can be reintroduced and the lessons of the past can be learned from.

I do agree with the whole Vegas aspect you're talking about... it's a great ideal, though we all know that's not how it turned out in practice. Perhaps in the future, when we reintroduce a serious discussion forum, the moderating staff for that forum will be totally independent of the rest of the site forum so that we can avoid any conflicts of interest.

Just an idea...

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Old 11-04-2013, 04:01 PM   #93
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@ The Doctor: That an extremely helpful link and clears up a lot of misunderstandings. I wish we'd had those kinds of examples to begin with though... a lot of the time people have been discussing vague ideas without actually producing any reference to what they actually mean.

I totally get where you're coming from and I agree... because that's kind of how things used to be done. However, unlike The Nexus forums, we had the additional hurdle of having different moderation teams from what use to be individual Star Wars game forums. For example, the staff at RogueSquadron.net were totally independent from the staff at JediKnight.net and because of the different community dynamics and expectations. We found it difficult to really work together in many ways since the view was that these were all individual communities and that each moderating team couldn't interfere with a team of another community.

And believe me when I say, I also tried to get these kinds of moderating staff reforms happening and for a time I wasn't quite popular with some other staff members because of my views and my push for change away from what is an old and archaic system.



There is hope for reform though, as long as the site consolidation/renewal I'm proposing actually happens. After all, how many of the moderation staff do you think are still in active service? The answer is: not very many at all. You may see some old faces of staff members here and there sometimes, but a lot of the time they're here posting as members rather than engaging in moderation activities.

We have a good opportunity to lay down new rules and processes for the staff because along with the community refocus, I totally agree that we need a staff refocus as well for the new, renewed LFN.

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Old 11-04-2013, 04:37 PM   #94
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@ The Doctor: That an extremely helpful link and clears up a lot of misunderstandings. I wish we'd had those kinds of examples to begin with though... a lot of the time people have been discussing vague ideas without actually producing any reference to what they actually mean.
I'm pretty sure I was one of those people once. I'm glad I could actually provide something concrete this time though.

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I totally get where you're coming from and I agree... because that's kind of how things used to be done. However, unlike The Nexus forums, we had the additional hurdle of having different moderation teams from what use to be individual Star Wars game forums. For example, the staff at RogueSquadron.net were totally independent from the staff at JediKnight.net and because of the different community dynamics and expectations. We found it difficult to really work together in many ways since the view was that these were all individual communities and that each moderating team couldn't interfere with a team of another community.
I suppose that's a valid point. One I hadn't really considered, to be completely honest with you. But if we're talking about a reconstructed, united LucasForums network in the coming years, then perhaps efforts should be taken to shape the moderation outlook to a specific community goal, rather than trying to fit the community into a moderation style.

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And believe me when I say, I also tried to get these kinds of moderating staff reforms happening and for a time I wasn't quite popular with some other staff members because of my views and my push for change away from what is an old and archaic system.
I think I was vaguely aware of some sort of rift there, but I was in and out of the forum at the time.
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Old 11-04-2013, 04:56 PM   #95
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@ Tot: I know, I've said that the lack of LA/SW games is the true issue in a previous post. What I'm saying in my more recent posts is that going forward, if we want to renew LFN, we need to refocus on video games first and foremost. Perhaps a serious discussion forum may re-enter the picture in the future, but in terms of renewing this place, we need to get the cultural dynamic back to video games.

We no longer have the staff or resources to have our focus split any more, and if we are to see this place renewed, we need to narrow down the focus of this place to match the theme of this network.

Then, after we have established the next generation community base, that is the time when things like a serious discussion forum can be reintroduced and the lessons of the past can be learned from.

I do agree with the whole Vegas aspect you're talking about... it's a great ideal, though we all know that's not how it turned out in practice. Perhaps in the future, when we reintroduce a serious discussion forum, the moderating staff for that forum will be totally independent of the rest of the site forum so that we can avoid any conflicts of interest.

Just an idea...
Wasn't implying you didn't know that. Just reemphasizing that it's not necessary to throw the serious stuff under the bus. It may just come down to how you advertize your newly revised LFN site as to what kind of crowd you attract. Don't bother mentioning or just downplay it and focus on pushing that it's a game oriented site always looking for new blood to discuss vidya, vidya, vidya uber alles. Afterall, w/1250 or so members, I imagine you can recruit staff w/"field promotions" that you can tailor to specific sections. Besides, it's a relatively tiny % of forumites that go to those sections anyway (or small slice of active posters anyway). Regardless, whatever ya decide on as staff, good luck reenergizing it.

Btw......I left you a reply in the Bergeren Colony thread.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:48 PM   #96
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@ Tommycat: I'm terrible to bringing across what I'm trying to say, so I'm sure it seems that way. What I'm trying to say is that the overall forum culture started off valuing the discussion of video games, star wars and popular culture but slowly turned into a community that valued political discussion above all else.

While I have no problems with the people here who value political discussion above lighter topics, I feel that if we are to move forward as a community, we need to encourage new users who value discussion of video games as the top priority so we can change the overall forum culture back to what it was.

The reason why the forum culture has changed to a more political one is because, for years, we haven't had a peep out of LucasArts about any game worth talking about until it finally died and had to resort to other topics to survive. This is why I recommended to other staff members that we needed to keep Kavar's and The Senate around a few years back despite the fact that it turns the cultural direction of this place into a direction it shouldn't be going.

However for the future of LFN, we can't continue down that political path and we desperately need to encourage that video game focus so it is top priority again if we are to renew this entire network as a network dedicated to video games and the people who enjoy them.


The Doctor was saying how we need to restore this place back to its glory days. That's what I have in mind too, though in my mind, the glory days came a little earlier, when the culture and community valued the discussion of video games above all else, not the other way around.
I understand that, but until there is another SPRPG set in the KotOR universe, the remaining life in the community is discussing other things. I remember this place being rather lively when there was even a hint of a KIII. It's since died to what it is now because it's more interesting to talk about political BS than to touch on the painful subject of not seeing more KotOR. It's like growing a third arm. At first it's not needed. Then after you get used to having it there, you wouldn't want to get rid of it. Sometimes you think "Hey it would be much easier having shirts made if that third arm was gone." But cutting it off would be weird to you after you get used to having it around. How do you hold your burrito and soda while you're reading a book? I had a point in there somewhere, but now I'm too busy imagining myself with 3 arms....


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 11-06-2013, 08:31 PM   #97
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Just read books you can hold w/one hand.....or alternate the burrito and soda.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 11-06-2013, 09:07 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
I think this thread was more or the less what it came down to and more or less settled the matter.

It involved wonderful terms like "open civil war", "neo-communist democracy", "gothic mysticist", "disbanding Kavar's", and "festive pagan clockwork".
It's certainly fascinating to look back on that, plus see all the people that contributed to that thread that have been banned since then lol



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Old 11-07-2013, 01:42 PM   #99
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It's certainly fascinating to look back on that, plus see all the people that contributed to that thread that have been banned since then lol


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Old 11-07-2013, 11:22 PM   #100
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It's certainly fascinating to look back on that, plus see all the people that contributed to that thread that have been banned since then lol
To be fair, I think one of those bans was voluntary and another was a long time coming.
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Old 11-07-2013, 11:48 PM   #101
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A voluntary ban?




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Old 11-08-2013, 12:03 AM   #102
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I believe Yuthura was just done with everything she'd dealt with over her time here, and asked to be denied the ability to return. To be fair, she took a lot of ****.
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:39 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by urluckyday View Post
It's certainly fascinating to look back on that, plus see all the people that contributed to that thread that have been banned since then lol
Wow. I really have been gone a long time. I thought I'd get banned long before any of them would get the chop.

This is a really weird kind of nostalgia.

On a side note, there's definitely an ebb and flow with any forum. I remember what brought me here was trying to figure out a modding error with Kotor, then that quickly got out of control and I stayed (then disappeared).

I'm sure once the next major SW-related milestone is released, the forum will have life and vitality breathed back into it. Right now, it looks just like we have a skeleton-crew keeping the forums alive, but there is still a community.

Even if that community is using urluckyday's third arm, which has far more evolutionary advantages than just using two arms.

Or one arm and a hook.

Or two arms and a third arm with a hook.


you very much
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:41 PM   #104
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Wall of text comment on whatever caught my eye, as Lynk asked for feedback elsewhere.

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@ The Doctor: I'm curious... where are these other forums that have complete transparency when it comes to moderation where the moderators activities are public for the entire world to see? I would actually like to have links posted to these forums because you make it sound as if this is a common thing even when I have never in my life have seen any web community run in this manner.
The SCP Foundation ( http://scp-wiki.net/ -- too lazy to remember how to do URL coding properly for now) is one such web community. The admin site is linked. Although even in this case, we have a secret IRC chat attached. But yes, every decision and disciplinary action are publicly viewable. As is a large portion of the discussion.

Granted, though, this is a much smaller community; it's Internet Popular but the actual size of the community is small, much smaller than these forums in their heyday; and those who even pay enough attention to know about the admin site comprise a smaller group. And while non-staff users can SEE everything, they can't comment (except to send staff private messages). Plus we have a tradition of being really harsh (the site doubles as a writing workshop), so it's less of a leap. But it might be of interest regardless.

(er, edit for clarity: I am an admin there.)

----------------------

I can't speak to how this forum was run, but I can speak to the moderation fights you mentioned, since I was part of them. (Sometimes the subject of them.) And while most of those tiny communities are dead, well... many still lurk, and you might encounter some unnecessary drama out of nowhere if you enact a sweeping change, enact new moderation policies & moderators to tiny sub-communities and/or erase those sub-communities entirely [in non-archived form at least]... without first talking to whoever's left, and not just in the TOR forums where these discussions are being had.

That aside, it's obviously time for change, and reform, regardless. Most of the people who firmly resisted before are either gone, or are probably willing to see that LF has been dead for so long that even iffy changes are better than none at all -- and if they don't, the onus is on them to prove otherwise. Whereas before, the onus was on you.

---------------------

Also, another side note: If y'all want a political discussion section, it should at least be one sitewide forum to defuse the drama. a little bit, not attached to a particular community but with everyone else piling in from elsewhere.

That said, as much as I prefer having places to discuss these topics, I do also recall that the highest drama bull**** always originated from the debate arenas. The Senate Chambers and... well, you know. Whereas while other communities had their drama, it almost never reached the same level -- and if it did, it didn't last as long. I honestly think Lynk's cancer metaphor was a good one...

The alternative would be to figure out a better way of running them. And that's no easy question. Hell, the same rules may no longer apply any longer! Just look at the gaming community overall; last decade hot topics wouldn't even come up unless someone deliberately pushed for them, such as religion or politics. But now you have people freaking the hell out about gender or sexuality or race topics which used to be stuffed under a rug -- and now are openly discussed and relevant. Mark my words, those will be discussed unless you forbid the topics entirely -- but you don't want to go the way of, say, the Bioware forums, described as "toxic" by game writers themselves! And then you'll get the "hate spiral" that last decade could at least be partially contained to debate forums, except this time, not so much... You get the point.

But on the other other other hand, it still wouldn't be as bad as full-blown debate forums.

Also, I think some of us are conflating "debate forums" with "place for serious topics". You can have topics with personal advice on serious issues and such and still ban political/religious debate. Yes, that's limiting, but it's a possible compromise.

-----------

Consolidation is ... fairly mandatory, but it would really have to be done cautiously. Archival could go a long way, but it won't go all the way. I mean... just take the XWA and RSN forums. Two separate communities. I'd say at minimum that would mean you'd need one sub-forum for each, under "Classic Gaming" or whatnot. Except... wait, the RP communities of those forums (what's left of them) are a separate, distinct sub-community using two boards! (Granted, it's still mostly dead, but I'm using it as an example.)

Is this taken into consideration, or not? I could see cases for both. And even in dead communities there may be unexpected life, and you want to harness that life by luring the lurkers into becoming members again... "seed" members in a new generation... not alienating them by surprise and ensuring that they will never come back.

Although I guess an easy-ish solution would be to just talk to remaining staff & remaining members and see what they think. Unless I'm misunderstanding the restructure proposal, of course.

---------------

Quote:
Haha if you think that some of your posts are a reflection on a lack of maturity, imagine what it feels like for this 23-year-old to look back at some of the posts he made when he was 13. /facepalm lol
Tell me about it. Jesus. I was 15 when I joined in 2001, and I'm 28 now. >_< (And this was my first ever forum -- well, Rogue Squadron was.)



Last edited by Redwing; 11-08-2013 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:08 PM   #105
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To be fair, I think one of those bans was voluntary and another was a long time coming.
Some observations...

For any part I may have played in any injustice anyone feels they have suffered at my hands, I am very sorry, I have always sought to be fair and just, but when I have failed you do have my apologies.

Personally I'd be happy to post why an individual member has been banned, in fact I think it in hindsight it would of been a good idea to have a banned member list and why and how long the ban was to clarify what had happened.

Often how a member posts in forum can be very different to private correspondence, I've never banned anyone for how they have spoken to me in PM's but have had a number of very nasty messages sent. Usually those members would eventually do something nasty in forum to another member.

With regards Kavars, people forget why it was formed which is mainly we kept getting serious topics started here in Ahto, and so to keep Ahto light we created Kavars for the more serious discussion, so it was something at least a section of the SWK community wanted for they were the ones who started political and philosophical threads.

As for Drama, my favourite thread ever! - http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=174418



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"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:11 PM   #106
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I don't see the post I made last night. It wasn't TL;DR and I'm pretty sure it didn't violate the rules. Why did the staff nerf it?

Oh, probably because I am a yay vote for giving certain subforum sections the iron sleeping pill.

Well don't worry, I'm sure plenty of members disagree with me.

To reiterate my thoughts regarding KC and the Senate...
Show spoiler


Now onto the fun stuff.

I am interested in making a LF guide to professions/crew skills in SWTOR. It would need a bit of input from other members, though, as I play infrequently.

After viewing the numerous helpful contributions Darth Parametric made in his posts, and the guide Mav is working on for jedi shadow/sith assassin tanking, I'm impressed and honestly think LF members still have perspective and something unique to contribute that would get us recognition on the net for this game.


I guess I would not mind making a server hardware/financial contribution to LF if it was within my range to do so.


I know you mostly all are aware of the Vader's 501st legion...so am I the only guy here who likes cosplay?

I know others like swordsmanship here--Am I one of only two people here who like IRL crafting custom lightsabers and other electronic/costume props? How 'bout people who do electronics expertise for this sort of thing?

Is there any interest in video production?


We have plenty of compuer hardware experts here. I definitely think this is something we should cotinue, though maybe put in a forum jump from the general tech to other subforums where technical issues arise and vice versa to the general tech for issues non game specific.

Just some ideas.


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Old 11-08-2013, 09:25 PM   #107
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I don't see the post I made last night. It wasn't TL;DR and I'm pretty sure it didn't violate the rules. Why did the staff nerf it?

Oh, probably because I am a yay vote for giving certain subforum sections the iron sleeping pill.
Because there are two threads, and you actually posted in the other one; it's still there but with the politics subforum discussion snipped (by Lynk).


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Old 11-09-2013, 12:13 AM   #108
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Because there are two threads, and you actually posted in the other one; it's still there but with the politics subforum discussion snipped (by Lynk).
Ah thanks. Serves right for being up at 2AM.


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