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Old 12-10-2013, 02:59 PM   #81
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She may have been a child when her mother died, but it wasn't the force that let her know those feelings. This indicated that Leia actually knew her mother more than Luke did. She says her mother died when she was very young. Probably toddler age. Sure, it's not like she says her mom took her to the Naboo Zoo, or Gungan Disneyland, but she didn't say she never met her mom.
As someone who dealt with an orphanage when I was 12 (Not orphaned, my mother stashed us there fighting a nasty divorce with a child abusing stepfather) I know that when people adopt, they rarely tell their 'kids' that they are until much later. More likely this was Bail's wife she remembers.

And Gungan Disneyland? I'm picturing a bunch of humans wearing suits like the modern one with someone playing Jar Jar and Boss Nazz with that horrendous accent!


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Old 12-11-2013, 12:45 AM   #82
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As someone who dealt with an orphanage when I was 12 (Not orphaned, my mother stashed us there fighting a nasty divorce with a child abusing stepfather) I know that when people adopt, they rarely tell their 'kids' that they are until much later. More likely this was Bail's wife she remembers.
That's what I thought as well...but after doing a little bit of research, it appears that Bail's wife, Breha, died on Alderaan when it was destroyed. Leia would've known who was who at that point.



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Old 12-11-2013, 12:59 AM   #83
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If I am remembering the scene correctly, Luke does say specifically "your real mother", which definitely seems to imply that Leia knew she was adopted.


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Old 12-11-2013, 08:21 AM   #84
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That's what I thought as well...but after doing a little bit of research, it appears that Bail's wife, Breha, died on Alderaan when it was destroyed. Leia would've known who was who at that point.
That is what I meant about the 'bible' mentioned above, better known as 'storyline continuity'. We have her (in ROTJ) saying she remembered her, but she died when Leia was a child, then turning around in ROTS and having her die in childbirth, which precludes having ever seen her.

I am on the fourth book in my 'Faerie Series' (Have been for too long as well) and I started a 'bible' of my own for it just to avoid such a problem. Seems GL never bothered, as he wrote all six.


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Old 12-11-2013, 03:56 PM   #85
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I think George made a story, a solid story and made the first three how he honestly wanted too, but i feel for the latter three he had changed so much that his vision changed making him be nit picky about the original and make a not the best and not the same universe prequel (as in the prequels in my mind were more of a retcon of a lot of the original ideas in the original)


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Old 12-11-2013, 06:37 PM   #86
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Well there is a bit of inconsistency in the first 3 as well... For example:
Vader could sense Luke in a shuttle WAAAAAAY away from him.
He couldn't sense Luke's twin sister when he was pointing at her face saying "You are part of the Rebel Alliance, and a traitor"

He was the best pilot in the galaxy, but gets tripped up by a bumbling wingman.

How about the whole trip to Bespin. No light speed. Would have taken months to get there(at least). Of course I guess that would explain how Luke was able to get trained in the time it took them to get to Bespin.


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Old 12-15-2013, 03:27 PM   #87
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Well there is a bit of inconsistency in the first 3 as well...
From what I noticed, you're looking for reasons to find flaws now, especially after I debunked your last attempt.

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For example:
Vader could sense Luke in a shuttle WAAAAAAY away from him.
The shuttle was flying all around Vader's Star Destroyer.


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He couldn't sense Luke's twin sister when he was pointing at her face saying "You are part of the Rebel Alliance, and a traitor"
What was he suppose to sense? Think about that one for a moment. As far as Vader was concerned at that moment he didn't know he had any children. So if you take that in consideration, what else is there to say? Maybe this would satisfy you:

Hypothetical Vader: "You're strong in the Force. You could be my child, but my wife died and assumed that my baby died as well, but being near you makes me believe that it was all a lie. But still, you are apart of the Rebel Alliance and a Traitor so I'm going take you back to the Death Star so we can sort this out."




Is that better for you?


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How about the whole trip to Bespin. No light speed. Would have taken months to get there(at least). Of course I guess that would explain how Luke was able to get trained in the time it took them to get to Bespin.
Maybe you just answered your own concern. And if I recall correctly, they mention in the ESB novel that it took a long time for Han and Leia to get to Cloud City and that Luke was on Dagobah way longer than it appeared in the movie.


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Old 12-15-2013, 03:58 PM   #88
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Thinking about it now... the time gap between the Falcon escaping the Star Destroyers to its eventual arrival at Cloud City... it's starting to make sense why all of the characters seemed pretty over each other when they landed on Cloud City. Han and Leia were tired of seeing each other and even Chewie and Han seemed a little miffed at each other. I'm sure Threepio drove eeeeveryone nuts too lol.

I'm probably thinking too much into it, but even if I am, it's a funny thought just thinking about them all going stir-crazy in there on the trip to Cloud City. And then all of that sexual tension between Han and Leia... damn.

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Old 12-15-2013, 05:37 PM   #89
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Did someone mention King Arthur? *shifty eyes*

Anyway. I think the infamous Red Letter Media pretty much laid out all my arguments for me. ._.

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Old 12-15-2013, 06:26 PM   #90
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I'm sure Threepio drove eeeeveryone nuts too lol.
Nope....they knew where his off button was.


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Old 12-15-2013, 11:38 PM   #91
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Actually Shem, you debunked nothing. I simply don't care about the inconsistencies as much to argue them, because I love Star Wars more. And the explanation about Bespin, I came up with it as I was typing it out. And it made sense.

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Nope....they knew where his off button was.
I'm thinking they were sick of him before Hoth.


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Old 12-16-2013, 12:16 AM   #92
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Actually Shem, you debunked nothing. I simply don't care about the inconsistencies as much to argue them, because I love Star Wars more. And the explanation about Bespin, I came up with it as I was typing it out. And it made sense.


I'm thinking they were sick of him before Hoth.
Oh, you're one of those who delude themselves into thinking they're never wrong about anything. Gotcha!



At least show me how I'm wrong... anything! That's right, didn't think so.


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Old 12-16-2013, 10:13 AM   #93
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I believe the trip to Bespin/Dagobah training, allows from 3 to 21 days according to time-line buffs, so, a bit of a hazy estimate, but at least we know it wasn't 12 hours, and there is the possibility of at least a crash course in Jedi, before he tapped up the third most powerful force user in the galaxy for a fisty cuffs.


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Old 12-16-2013, 09:41 PM   #94
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From what I noticed, you're looking for reasons to find flaws now, especially after I debunked your last attempt.


The shuttle was flying all around Vader's Star Destroyer. .
Shem, Shem, Shem, you aren't arguing logically. Either Vader and the Emperor can detect other force users, or they cannot. The shuttle in question was not as you said, flying 'around' the Super Star Destroyer. They were flying a direct non threatening course toward Endor. I know quite a lot about how a blockade is set up, and how a picket is organized. There is no way a shuttle can 'fly around' a warship on such duty without drawing fire. You have to steer a direct course, act as inoffensive as possible, obey all instructions. Anything else means you are dead.


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What was he suppose to sense? Think about that one for a moment. As far as Vader was concerned at that moment he didn't know he had any children. So if you take that in consideration, what else is there to say? Maybe this would satisfy you:

Hypothetical Vader: "You're strong in the Force. You could be my child, but my wife died and assumed that my baby died as well, but being near you makes me believe that it was all a lie. But still, you are apart of the Rebel Alliance and a Traitor so I'm going take you back to the Death Star so we can sort this out."
Is that better for you? .
Shem, think. Vader and the Emperor started their takeover by slaughtering the Jedi down to the youngling. They murdered children to assure their rule. Do you think for a minute that Vader 18-20 years later would ignore that this woman he sees is a potential Jedi? He should be either suborning her to serve the Emperor, or having her killed out of hand. He would not care a whit that she might be his daughter. He should be destroying or tormenting her into the same mold the instant he detected her.


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Maybe you just answered your own concern. And if I recall correctly, they mention in the ESB novel that it took a long time for Han and Leia to get to Cloud City and that Luke was on Dagobah way longer than it appeared in the movie.
As for that, think of it this way;

Distance from Earth to Alpha Centauri, 4.3 light years. Time to travel there in normal space at 80% light speed; Six years. Assuming the Star Wars Role Playing Game with speeds higher than Einstein's light speed limit, about three.

Now; assuming reactor mass needed to A: Exceed light speed and B: maintain it from Earth to Alpha Centauri, you are suggesting the entire mass of the ship to reach that target!


'To argue with those who have renounced the use and authority of reason is as futile as to administer medicine to the dead.' Now who said that?

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Old 12-16-2013, 09:52 PM   #95
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They didn't show the space tow ship towing them to Bespin. They would have towed them all the way, but Hans used spent most of his credits on a bender to Nar Shaddaa.

This is how you argue Star Wars folks.


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Old 12-16-2013, 10:48 PM   #96
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Shem, Shem, Shem, you aren't arguing logically. Either Vader and the Emperor can detect other force users, or they cannot.
Life isn't black and white and neither is this. For one thing Vader in ROTJ was already familiar with Luke being around him. The Emperor hadn't met him yet. Thus Vader had an advantage with familiarity.

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The shuttle in question was not as you said, flying 'around' the Super Star Destroyer.
I already win the argument with these pictures alone.





Yeah, they're flying around it. So I was right. What you should have done is watch the movie and go to this scene first before saying anything.


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They were flying a direct non threatening course toward Endor. I know quite a lot about how a blockade is set up, and how a picket is organized. There is no way a shuttle can 'fly around' a warship on such duty without drawing fire. You have to steer a direct course, act as inoffensive as possible, obey all instructions. Anything else means you are dead.


I can almost hear it now:

Commander 1: "That's one of our ships."

Commander 2: "It's too close. Blast it!"

Commander 1: "But sir it's one of ours and it's way smaller than us. There's no way it could harm us. Maybe we should give it time to identify itself before firing."


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Shem, think.
That is what you should have done first. But you and I know that you're still going to try to be right and go all lawyer on me. Just remember people with logical minds won't buy it.


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Vader and the Emperor started their takeover by slaughtering the Jedi down to the youngling. They murdered children to assure their rule. Do you think for a minute that Vader 18-20 years later would ignore that this woman he sees is a potential Jedi?
Except that who is going to train her? The thing is not all Force users were trained. Please don't make me explain that part. Oh, wait, you're still going to say something to make me have to do it anyway aren't you?


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He should be either suborning her to serve the Emperor, or having her killed out of hand. He would not care a whit that she might be his daughter. He should be destroying or tormenting her into the same mold the instant he detected her.
Or he could have saw potential in her and wanted to use her to help him destroy the Emperor. Wait, isn't that what he wanted to do with Luke? Yeah, I think that establishes how Vader thinks.


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As for that, think of it this way;

Distance from Earth to Alpha Centauri, 4.3 light years. Time to travel there in normal space at 80% light speed; Six years. Assuming the Star Wars Role Playing Game with speeds higher than Einstein's light speed limit, about three.

Now; assuming reactor mass needed to A: Exceed light speed and B: maintain it from Earth to Alpha Centauri, you are suggesting the entire mass of the ship to reach that target!


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Old 12-17-2013, 03:28 AM   #97
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Another thing to consider... wasn't the Falcon's navigation computer damaged, the computer that calculates jumps to hyperspace, and that's why they couldn't jump to hyperspace? They weren't incapable of actually jumping to hyperspace, they were just unable to calculate a jump to a place that wasn't close enough and didn't have a fairly simple set of jump calculations.

So wouldn't it be possible that part of the journey to Bespin was actually done through some very careful rudimentary hyperspace calculations to cut down as much of the time as safely as they could?

Just something to think about.

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Old 12-17-2013, 11:35 AM   #98
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Another thing to consider... wasn't the Falcon's navigation computer damaged, the computer that calculates jumps to hyperspace, and that's why they couldn't jump to hyperspace? They weren't incapable of actually jumping to hyperspace, they were just unable to calculate a jump to a place that wasn't close enough and didn't have a fairly simple set of jump calculations.

So wouldn't it be possible that part of the journey to Bespin was actually done through some very careful rudimentary hyperspace calculations to cut down as much of the time as safely as they could?

Just something to think about.
I thought the same, but weren't Han and Leia sifting through a list of nearby systems that they could jump to without too much trouble?
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Old 12-17-2013, 12:31 PM   #99
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Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

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Old 12-17-2013, 02:32 PM   #100
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"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, farm boy. Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" ~ Han's quote from Star Wars.


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Old 12-17-2013, 11:35 PM   #101
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Yeah, which is why they chose a destination that was close enough and had a fairly easy enough set of jump coordinates that they could probably spend a month to calculate those set of jump coordinates plot a jump there that would cut the time down to a couple of months instead of it taking many, many years to get there.

The function of the hyperspace navigation computers is to make the jump calculations precisely but also to cut down the time it takes to do them. If they ran the calculations to Bespin through one of the Falcon's other computers, they'd most likely be able to get calculations after a period of time that are accurate enough to use.

Also, you have to take your quote into context. The Falcon was under fire from Star Destroyers and Han was telling Luke that it takes time for the jump coordinates to be calculated, even for the Falcon's superior hyperspace navigation computer. You also have to take into account that space is HUGE and empty. The likelihood of actually hitting anything or coming close enough to a dangerous event is pretty slim. Actually, now that I think about it, maybe it was Han making an excuse for the Falcon since its jump computer is actually really strange and takes longer than usual to plot the coordinates than other computers but when it does, is able to plot the most efficient course out of any ship, hence the Kessel run brag.

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Old 12-18-2013, 10:52 AM   #102
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I am going by visual chronology, and dialogue, because you see Palpatine talking to his subordinate telling him to ready the ship to leave immediately, yet the fight with Obi Wan had just ended with Anakin's legs being amputated.
Not true. He said that after defeating Yoda while Obi-Wan and Anakin were still in the middle of their fight.



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Old 12-18-2013, 11:17 PM   #103
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By explaining why some people can use the Force and some can't? I mean they already established that in the Star Wars universe... all they did was given a genetic name to why.


It's Leia. And I'll let Yoda answer this one:









Not true. People misunderstand that one like how some people misunderstood that the Force is genetic and that it was established in the OT.

So, let's revisit the scene you're talking about in ESB:





So, now it is established that if Obi-Wan didn't know, he knows now. Then we go to ROTJ when Obi-Wan reveals to Luke about Leia:







So, he knows about Leia, yet still calls Luke the only hope. Is it possible in Obi-Wan's opinion that he didn't believe in Leia, but Yoda did? Jedi can disagree you know.











When he first met Anakin on Padme's starship right after Qui-Gon fought Darth Maul, Anakin had already won a pod race. And "accomplished" isn't a word used to describe Anakin's piloting as Obi-Wan said (though winning a pod race qualifies that remark); he called him a GREAT pilot.



Just because Obi-Wan didn't say anything, doesn't mean he didn't recognize them.
Since you HAD to make a big stink about it, I was just going to let it go...
Leia did not mention visions. She said "very young" not that she never even remembered meeting her. Very young could be as late as 6, as I KNOW I was at 4 corners when I was a kid of 6, I just don't remember it.

Obiwan said he was a great pilot. And claiming that pod racing is piloting... Whatever, We'll have to agree to disagree...

As for the Obi and Yoda argument theory. He didn't say anything about not believing in her as another. And this seemed that Obi was blissfully unaware of the second child. We've had a great deal of time between ESB and ROTJ, so they may have discussed and Yoda may have told Ben, so that's how he's able to explain, but all that is speculation. I guess we'll have to wait for the ultimate superduper special edition to rewrite that one.


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Old 12-19-2013, 12:08 AM   #104
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Since you HAD to make a big stink about it, I was just going to let it go...
Leia did not mention visions. She said "very young" not that she never even remembered meeting her. Very young could be as late as 6, as I KNOW I was at 4 corners when I was a kid of 6, I just don't remember it.
Babies are very young you know. And sometimes people remember things at very young ages. And again like Yoda said "Though the Force..." You're making it a black & white issue and life doesn't work that way.



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Obiwan said he was a great pilot. And claiming that pod racing is piloting... Whatever, We'll have to agree to disagree...
Are you saying that Anakin wasn't a great pilot? Because everything he did in TPM points that he was. Pod racing is piloting. If you saw the speeds they were going and the things they had to avoid, that's quite the accomplishment.

It just seems like to you piloting is only things that fly way above the ground and that isn't always the case though pods in Star Wars do float in the air.

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As for the Obi and Yoda argument theory. He didn't say anything about not believing in her as another. And this seemed that Obi was blissfully unaware of the second child. We've had a great deal of time between ESB and ROTJ, so they may have discussed and Yoda may have told Ben, so that's how he's able to explain, but all that is speculation. I guess we'll have to wait for the ultimate superduper special edition to rewrite that one.
But you're overlooking what I pointed out before. Obi-Wan CLEARLY points out that Luke is the only hope in ROTJ, well after he and Yoda had that conversation of who the other is. So why would Obi-Wan at that point call Luke the only hope when it was clear at that point of the movie that he knew Leia's existence if it wasn't a difference of an opinion?

In order for you to counter this argument, you have to explain to me why Obi-Wan still called Luke the only hope despite clearly knowing of Leia's existence and how it's still possible originally it was intended that he didn't know of Leia.

And you should listen to George Lucas' commentary in the ESB DVD. He said the reason for that dialogue between Obi-Wan and Yoda was intended to make Luke look possibly expendable so you weren't sure if he was going to make it. So there was no intent of Obi-Wan not knowing. And besides, how would Obi-Wan get the assignment of watching over Luke if he wasn't there at his birth and if he was there, how or why would they (whoever you think it was originally intended) would hide Leia's existence if Obi-Wan can't be trusted and if he can't be trusted, then he has no business watching over Luke.


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Old 01-07-2014, 03:12 PM   #105
urluckyday
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Just watched the entire prequel trilogy on Blu Ray over the past two days (again). Forgot how much I actually liked them! Great movies!



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Old 01-07-2014, 10:21 PM   #106
Jae Onasi
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What's great about the prequels:

1.The Darth Maul lightsaber scenes.
2. Yoda lightsaber scenes
3. Palpatine maneuvering the Senate and manipulating Anakin

What sucks about the prequels:

1-9,052: Jar-jar

9,053: Hayden's (lack of) acting ability

9,054. Using a kid for Anakin in TPM and making him unbelievably goody-two-shoes.

9,055: the lack of anesthesia while Padme gives birth. Ships can go to hyperspace but they haven't figured out how to do a darn epidural? Sheesh.

9,056: Padme dying from a 'lack of will to live'. She just had 2 babies, and she couldn't bring herself to live for the 2 infants she bore for the last 9-ish months (or whatever is the gestation length for Naboo women). She could have been too burned or suffered too much heat stroke or had some kind of Force sickness from the Emperor (secretly behind Anakin's back), but no, we had to have this stupid lame-arse excuse.

The midichlorians didn't bother me--I thought of them more like mitochondria than anything else. Mitochondria power our cells, midichlorians power the Force. The Force is still mystical enough to work for me even with the midichlorian explanation and/or excuse.


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Old 01-08-2014, 05:41 PM   #107
urluckyday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post

9,053: Hayden's (lack of) acting ability

9,054. Using a kid for Anakin in TPM and making him unbelievably goody-two-shoes.
I don't know if these two are fair. If you've seen any of Hayden's other movies, most notably "Shattered Glass," you'll see that he's actually a very talented actor, and I see why George chose him. Obviously there were cringe-worthy moments from him (most likely a result of directing rather than acting), but I think that his acting worked well for who he was supposed to be.

What's wrong with having Anakin being a kid with a sense of wanting to do what's right? In my opinion, I feel like that sets it up perfectly for Episodes II/III where he finds himself in situations where it's no longer black and white/right or wrong scenarios. Anakin really wants to do what's right to help people, but he obviously appeared vulnerable when trying to figure out exactly how to do that as the story progressed. People always seemed to have a problem with the idea that that's how George "started" the story with Anakin Skywalker - I'm not sure how else he could've done it more effectively.



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Old 01-09-2014, 12:41 PM   #108
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Anakin as a character was done very strangely, I think a combination of George Lucas telling him how to perform his line's (watch the behind the scenes videos, George is a very shy man, never mind he's not an actor) and there is a definite sense that Hayden tried to copy James Earl Jones's cadence, that of a middle aged, baritone, African-American Broadway actor, with a Transatlantic accent, and of course the love scenes were very badly written in my opinion... I don't mind personally because I've grown to love everything about the Prequels over the years, but it's easy to see why Hayden could be picked apart.


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