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12-17-2013, 07:17 PM   #1
Mator
@Mator
Lurker

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3
Pazaak Probabilities

Hello, I'm new here.

I was just returning to Knights of the Old Republic, and I was about to start up Pazaak in Taris again, when I felt the need to seek out what other people's strategies were regarding Pazaak. After reading several pazaak guides/strategies on the internet, I felt woefully unconvinced. I'm starting this thread so I can share my ideas regarding pazaak, and perhaps hear some from other members as well.

So to begin, I decided to use a Monte Carlo simulation to see what I could learn about the probability of getting certain results on a pazaak table. My program is currently pretty simple, so some extrapolation on the produced data will be necessary. To begin, I'm simply rolling random values between 1 and 10 for cards, and playing a game up until the value is greater than or equal to 20, or until there are 9 cards on the table. At this point I store what the value is and simulate a new game of pazaak. I don't think the decks in KOTOR have a finite number of each type of card (though I have heard mention of there being 4 of each card between 1 and 10). In the case that they do have a finite number of each card this simulation may yield different results.

I simulated 100,000 games, and these are my results:
Quote:
 ----------------------- Pazaak game tester v0.1 ----------------------- 100000 games simulated. Results: Busts: 81756 g10: 23678 g11: 16053 g12: 16687 g13: 16985 g14: 17681 g15: 17876 g16: 18237 g17: 18544 g18: 18785 g19: 18774 g20: 18242 g21: 16018 g22: 14241 g23: 12586 g24: 10973 g25: 9205 g26: 7485 g27: 5618 g28: 3736 g29: 1894 g30: 0 gDouble: 25532 --Rolls-- r1: 41815 r2: 41936 r3: 42199 r4: 41652 r5: 42066 r6: 41997 r7: 41748 r8: 41878 r9: 41651 r10: 42002

A quick explanation of these values:
Busts: Whenever the game doesn't end in a 20, I count the game as a bust. This is why this number is so large, and why this number plus g20 equals the number of games simulated.
g10: Whenever the sum of the cards on the table is 10, I count that as a g10.
g11-g30: Same idea as g10, but with the sums corresponding to the variable name.
gDouble: Whenever a card is thrown such that you can use the "doubling card" from TSL (e.g. a game starting with 10) to win, I increased gDouble.
r1-r10: Just to show that the randomization was working, these values correspond to each time a 1, 2, 3... etc. card was "rolled". As you can tell they're all close to 42,000 (for a total of 418,994 rolls, corresponding to an average of 4.189 cards per game before reaching or exceeding a value of 20).

Obviously there's a lot more work to be done here, but I'm confident that with time we can find the most ideal pazaak hands and from there the most ideal pazaak deck.

--EDIT--
Did some more simulation work and expanded the program's capabilities. Tested 10,000,000 games per card type. The tested card was played whenever table value was such that playing it resulted in total card value of 20, or in the case of subtraction cards, whenever the table value exceeded 20. Direct victories are where using the card resulted in a table value of 20, luck victories are where you used a subtraction card to go below 20 and then got 20 later on in the game.

Card Probability Results:
+6
Victories without using card: 1546561
Test card +6 direct victories: 1756088
Test card +6 luck victories: 0
Chance of victory without using card: 15.47%
Total chance of victory: 33.03%

+5
Victories without using card: 1564440
Test card +5 direct victories: 1800038
Test card +5 luck victories: 0
Chance of victory without using card: 15.64%
Total chance of victory: 33.64%

+4
Victories without using card: 1583265
Test card +4 direct victories: 1834424
Test card +4 luck victories: 0
Chance of victory without using card: 15.83%
Total chance of victory: 34.18%

+3
Victories without using card: 1603384
Test card +3 direct victories: 1859016
Test card +3 luck victories: 0
Chance of victory without using card: 16.03%
Total chance of victory: 34.62%

+2
Victories without using card: 1624613
Test card +2 direct victories: 1862669
Test card +2 luck victories: 0
Chance of victory without using card: 16.24%
Total chance of victory: 34.87%

+1
Victories without using card: 1642042
Test card +1 direct victories: 1857887
Test card +1 luck victories: 0
Chance of victory without using card: 16.42%
Total chance of victory: 35.00%

-6
Victories without using card: 1827851
Test card -6 direct victories: 1343382
Test card -6 luck victories: 755766
Chance of victory without using card: 18.28%
Total chance of victory: 39.27%

-5
Victories without using card: 1828517
Test card -5 direct victories: 1530948
Test card -5 luck victories: 612853
Chance of victory without using card: 18.29%
Total chance of victory: 39.72%

-4
Victories without using card: 1828937
Test card -4 direct victories: 1559155
Test card -4 luck victories: 464965
Chance of victory without using card: 18.29%
Total chance of victory: 38.53%

-3
Victories without using card: 1827270
Test card -3 direct victories: 1578922
Test card -3 luck victories: 310677
Chance of victory without using card: 18.27%
Total chance of victory: 37.17%

-2
Victories without using card: 1825755
Test card -2 direct victories: 1591142
Test card -2 luck victories: 155946
Chance of victory without using card: 18.26%
Total chance of victory: 35.73%

-1
Victories without using card: 1826087
Test card -1 direct victories: 1591168
Test card -1 luck victories: 0
Chance of victory without using card: 18.26%
Total chance of victory: 34.17%

+/-6
Victories without using card: 1546192
Test card +/-6 direct victories: 2893080
Test card +/-6 luck victories: 610858
Chance of victory without using card: 15.46%
Total chance of victory: 50.50%

+/-5
Victories without using card: 1564809
Test card +/-5 direct victories: 2954220
Test card +/-5 luck victories: 497123
Chance of victory without using card: 15.64%
Total chance of victory: 50.16%

+/-4
Victories without using card: 1585434
Test card +/-4 direct victories: 3074411
Test card +/-4 luck victories: 387313
Chance of victory without using card: 15.85%
Total chance of victory: 50.47%

+/-3
Victories without using card: 1603198
Test card +/-3 direct victories: 3165574
Test card +/-3 luck victories: 265437
Chance of victory without using card: 16.03%
Total chance of victory: 50.34%

+/-2
Victories without using card: 1622371
Test card +/-2 direct victories: 3231314
Test card +/-2 luck victories: 136824
Chance of victory without using card: 16.22%
Total chance of victory: 49.91%

+/-1
Victories without using card: 1643193
Test card +/-1 direct victories: 3264196
Test card +/-1 luck victories: 0
Chance of victory without using card: 16.43%
Total chance of victory: 49.07%

Show spoiler

More advanced simulation is still possible, but this is quite a good start.

Results:
• +/-x cards have the best chance of victory, with +/-4, 5, and 6 having the highest percentages by small margins.
• Chance of victory without using a card is highest for the lower +/- cards.
• Getting an 11, or another value less than 15 but more than 10, on the table is less likely than getting a value larger than 15 but less than or equal to 20. (I'm not certain why this is)
• Cards by total chance of victory: +/-6, +/-4, +/-3, +/-5, +/-2, +/-1, -5, -6, -4, -3, -2, +1, +2, +3, +4, -1, +5, +6

Card Costs:
(from Matthew Brown's Pazaak Guide)

Tatooine
Junix Nard, Cantina

Qty Card Price
--- ------ -----
2 [+/-1] 200c
2 [+/-2] 150c
2 [+/-3] 125c
2 [+/-4] 100c

Korriban
Mika Dorin, Cantina

Qty Card Price
--- ------ -----
1 [+/-1] 300c
1 [+/-2] 225c
1 [+/-3] 187c
1 [+/-4] 150c

Manaan

Qty Card Price
--- ------ -----
1 [+/-1] 200c
1 [+/-2] 150c
2 [+/-3] 125c
2 [+1] 100c
1 [-1] 100c
2 [+2] 75c
1 [-2] 75c
3 [+/-6] 50c
3 [+3] 50c
3 [+4] 50c
2 [-3] 25c
2 [-4] 25c
4 [+5] 12c
4 [-5] 12c
5 [+6] 5c
5 [-6] 5c

Dantooine
Crattis Yurkal, Aratech Mercantile

Qty Card Price
--- ------ -----
1 [+/-1] 200c
1 [+/-3] 125c
1 [-2] 75c
1 [+/-5] 75c
1 [-4] 25c
1 [-6] 5c

Dantooine
Sol'aa, Jedi Enclave

Qty Card Price
--- ------ -----
1 [+/-2] 150c
2 [+/-4] 100c
2 [+1] 100c
1 [-1] 100c
3 [+/-5] 75c
2 [+2] 75c
1 [-2] 75c
3 [+3] 50c
3 [+4] 25c
2 [-3] 25c
2 [-4] 25c
4 [+5] 12c
4 [-5] 12c
5 [+6] 5c
5 [+6] 5c

Taris
Uriah, Lower City Cantina
-need a Pazaak deck in order to buy cards from Uriah
inf = infinite/unlimited quantity

Qty Card Price
--- ------ -----
2 [+/-1] 200c
1 [+/-3] 125c
inf [+1] 100c
inf [+2] 75c
inf [-2] 75c
inf [+/-6] 50c
inf [+3] 50c
inf [+4] 25c
inf [-4] 25c
inf [+5] 12c
inf [-5] 12c
inf [+6] 6c
inf [-6] 6c

Taris
Igear, Undercity

Qty Card Price
--- ------ -----
1 [-2] 56c
1 [+2] 56c
1 [-3] 18c

The best deck:
• -6 cards only cost 6c, and you can buy as many as you want from Uriah. With a 39.27% chance of victory they're a pretty good investment.
• -5 cards only cost 12c, and you can buy as many as you want from Uriah. With a 39.72% chance of victory they're a pretty good investment, just like -6 cards.
• +/-6 cards cost 50c. These are the best bang-for-you-buck cards, along with +/-5 cards, which cost 75c apiece.
• Generally speaking, any +/- cards you can pick up for free should be used. -5 or -6 cards should take up the rest of your deck.
• A good deck will have a variety of cards because having a duplicate card in your hand limits your options in the game. So the best hand would be +/-6, +/-5, +/-4, and +/-3. Because +/-2 and +/-1 are equally valuable and having them decreases your chances for duplicate cards, I'd say the best deck is: two +/-6 cards, two +/-5 cards, two +/-4 cards, two +/-3 cards, one +/-2, and one +/-1.

Note: Variety is important in a pazaak deck to increase the chances of winning the first few games.

Possible improvements to this investigation: This investigation into Pazaak probabilities could be improved by actually simulating full games with a procedure which decides whether or not to stand based on what another simulation is doing. With two different simulations with two different decks you could simulate actual pazaak games and discover deeper probability behaviors. There's also the fact that my simulation assumed that the pazaak deck in KOTOR had no limit to card types (even though several people have suggested there's 4 of each number 1-10). If I was wrong about this certain values found in my simulations may be slightly off.

Last edited by Mator; 12-18-2013 at 02:48 AM.
12-18-2013, 10:01 PM   #2
Mator
@Mator
Lurker

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3
Hi again!

I've made an entirely new program that actually allows you to put two hands against each other and see which will win. It's still in need of a bit of work, but it's capable of better simulations than before. Here's what it looks like:

The "match" play of 3 games with 1 hand is not yet coded, but soon I'll have written the code to do this as well!

Here's some sample data:
Show spoiler

-Mator

Last edited by Mator; 12-18-2013 at 10:19 PM.
 12-18-2013, 10:28 PM #3 LDR @LDR Eclectic Musician     Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Malachor V Posts: 1,161 Current Game: Halo 5: Guardians Even though I don't understand half of this stuff, I just wanted to say that what you're doing is nothing short of amazing. I'm surprised no one else thought of this earlier. Keep the simulations coming! The funniest thing about this sentence is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it. My Mods Current Mod Thread you may: quote & reply,
12-19-2013, 12:15 AM   #4
Mator
@Mator
Lurker

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3
Quote:
 Originally Posted by LDR Even though I don't understand half of this stuff, I just wanted to say that what you're doing is nothing short of amazing. I'm surprised no one else thought of this earlier. Keep the simulations coming!
Thanks LordDeathRay!

It's really not all that complicated, I'm just having the computer play pazaak games over and over again and seeing what the chance of winning is.

Between yesterday and today I've actually found a few other attempted pazaak simulations, though I don't really agree with their techniques or results. I feel their simulations weren't nearly as in-depth or accurate as mine are.

Anywho, I'll keep working on this until there's no more work to be done, next update will probably be around midnight PST! :P

Last edited by Mator; 12-19-2013 at 12:24 AM.
 01-04-2014, 08:52 AM #5 Darth krunchy @Darth krunchy Rookie     Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Shermer, Illinois Posts: 91 This is awesome. My diapers have gone over to the dark side. you may: quote & reply,
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