lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Jedi verse Jedi, Sabers Only
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 09-06-2001, 05:40 PM   #41
SlowbieOne
 
SlowbieOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Cloud City, Bespin
Posts: 702
Post

First of all I have played AOTL enough to know it sucks badly. It is so slow paced it isn't even fun.

Second, NF sabers means exaclty what it sounds like: NO FORCE SABERS. Why make a useless force saber system for saber duels when you can make it just as interesting without force?

Third there was no way to have saber duels in JK without strafing unless you used a cheat cog or something, so you don't know what you are talking about. Are you one of those fools who just jumps around swinging?

Fourth, THIS IS JUST A GAME! Stop talking to me like an ass. I'm not gonna stoop to your level and insult you. The point of this message board is to express opinions, and talk about them, not insult someone when they disagree with you. Obviously you have some issues, so if you are gonna reply and want a reply from me, be nice. I'm grown up and whatever you say I can take, but I won't give you the satisfaction of answering you.

I was simply saying that there is no reason to compare AOTL with JO cause it's not even in the same ballpark.
SlowbieOne is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-06-2001, 07:49 PM   #42
DeathBoLT
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Columbia, South Carolina
Posts: 598
Post

The problem with manual blocking: a real jedi uses the force to predict where the saber is coming, where the blaster bolt shall strike.. theres only one problem with it though, in a video game:

We're not jedi. You can't forget that because, although a Jedi would have superhuman reflexes, we simply don't. The computer game must comphensate for it accordingly, and automatic blocking does that. Lets say that, we're walking out in the open and someone with a sniper rifle is drawing a bead on us. A Jedi would sense danger and defend agaisnt attack whereas someone without the force would get their face chewed off by blaster fire.

In this situation, either automatic blocking is neccessary, or some sort of force early alert system(along the lines of a 'spider sense') that warns us someone has us in their targeting brackets. One way or another, its crucial that Jedi abilties that real life humans can't have are comphensated for in the game.

I'm about to download AotLS mod right now to try it out

[ September 06, 2001: Message edited by: [eVe]DeathBoLT ]


#nar
irc.enterthegame
#nar.. THE channel for Jedi Knight 2 players
DeathBoLT is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-06-2001, 07:51 PM   #43
Irimi-Ai
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 9
Post

Slowbie:

Sorry if you took anything that I've written personally. I did not mean for you take anything personally. I re-read and re-read my posts, and I could only see two things that *might* be taken personally. Both times all I said was that "any moron/idiot can...". I'm not saying YOU are a moron or idiot, I was only saying that those two things were things that anyone can do. How that is insulting escapes me.
I thought we were discussing ideas. Yes, you disagreed with my opinions, and I disagreed with your reasons for disagreeing. That was why I was providing evidence from the books, movies, and my experience playing online as well as examples. If you took these personally, it was not my intention. You clearly did take them personally, though, as judged by the anger and hurt in your reply. If I remember correctly, you supported the idea of a manual blocking system. I agree with you, and only suggested that others try the mod to get a better idea about it. I'm aware that AOTL and JK2 aren't in the same ballpark, and never in my posts did I even try to suggest that they are. Again, if you thought I was comparing AOTL and JK2, I don't know where you got that from. I'm sorry you interpreted it that way. All I have said all along is that there was already a MOTS mod that utilized manual blocking, and suggested that people try it to get an idea about it and to provide proof that a manual block does not increase lag (even with JK's netcode).
Then you disagreed with/didn't like it using mana to block. All I did was provide reasons why I thought it was a good idea, why I liked it, and why it stayed with the continuity more. Then you started disagreeing with those and I provided evidence or examples because I didn't think your critiques were accurate and blah blah blah. The point is, we are more in agreement than disagreement. It would have been nice if you had noticed some agreement between us in your posts as I did in mine, rather than just disagreeing with everything I said.

Irimi-Ai

PS I'm really not one of those people who just jumps and swings, nor do I strafe all the time. It is possible to have saber duels without circle strafing all the time. I know because I have been in them before. I agree that you will never be in a duel that is not just circle strafing if you play on the zone (unless you get a MOTL room). However, that does not mean that it's impossible to have a saber duel that does not consist of cirlce strafing all the time. Just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Much of it depends on who you play with and what they care about. I hardly ever play the zone because there it always is circle strafing because the people care about killing as many people as possible. That's pretty boring in my opinion. On the other hand,if you play with people who care more about making it look cinematic and move really fast (like the people I play with), cirlce strafing happens very rarely. I'm sure that you haven't played with people like this (there aren't many), so I must say that it is you who does not know what they are talking about...not me. So, it is possible, and don't assume that everyone who plays only cares about being the "winner" or the "best" and therefore just tries to rack up the most frags. Some people care about clever tactics and making it look smooth, cool, and like the movies.
Irimi-Ai is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-06-2001, 08:11 PM   #44
Irimi-Ai
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 9
Post

DeathBolt:

I mostly agree with you. The game does have to compensate for the differences between if we were real Jedi in the game world and between being a normal human in the real world merely playing a game (don't go all matrix on me...haha). I think a Jedi danger sense would be cool. MOTS tried it with scripted things like "I sense several beings nearby," but a cool danger sense would be really awesome. However, I don't think the way they resolved it was by automatic blocking. In most instances in JK or MOTS, you knew you were going to be shot at with enough time beforehand that you could have used a manual block if it was there. Also, automatic block would only work if you were facing the danger. The way I think they compensated for not having a danger sense was adding shields and allowing you to take several blaster shots with no shields before you die. To me, that was how it was solved. A portable shield generator for a Jedi? That's how they compensated for not having a danger sense. That way, you get shot when you don't see it coming, but you're not dead because you've got shields and health. But once you're hit, you know you're in trouble and you'd better do something. Sorta like a delayed danger senes. You find out when you're in danger when you are, rather than before hand. So, in JK you're walking and a sniper gets a bead on you. There is no danger sense and we don't have superhuman reflexes, and they don't want people to die too easily, so they add shields and lower the damage blasters do (several hits in the games vs. typically one or 2 hits in the movies). I'd love to see a danger sense replace shields in JK2, though, and also increase the damage blasters do...but also increase Kyle's accuracy while blocking blaster fire. Anyway, I completely agree that real life humans have to be compensated for the Jedi abilities that they don't have, but the character does. I just think that the main way it was solved was primarily via shields and lowered blaster damage, and secondarily through autoblock. I'm with you....danger sense would be lots better.

Irimi-Ai
Irimi-Ai is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-06-2001, 08:45 PM   #45
Tap[RR]
 
Tap[RR]'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 190
Post

The ONLY problem i had with aotl is finding fricken people online. Its a ***** to find someone online with the same mod, damn mots!! Also manual blocking (damn ive said this enough people!!) WOULD NOT cause huge amounts of lag, not with q3's netcode. But i kinda prefer the force being drained with blocking (they already said it drained mana) as long as it isnt a HUGE fricken amount of mana, should be a balanced amount. Oh, hey slowbie, were ya been! havent seen you on the zone in awhile, need someone thats actually knows how to play sbx right
Tap[RR] is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-06-2001, 09:23 PM   #46
SlowbieOne
 
SlowbieOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Cloud City, Bespin
Posts: 702
Post

I'll be playing later tonight probably. I'll be waiting inside the tree with my saber off... Watch your back!
SlowbieOne is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-23-2001, 01:48 PM   #47
Myxale
 
Myxale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Germany and The Abyss
Posts: 66
Wink

All i want to said ..was said before.

But i wont be bad if Raven decide to implement Staffs lik in the best mod for JK .

I think they choosen a GOod time.

The JK comumity ist one of the bigest; the editing networks are big too ,.. they know what the gamers want.
They only have to take a look on all the selfmade stuff.



An Ewok taste like a clown...a bit funny!!!
Myxale is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-23-2001, 10:00 PM   #48
Kurgan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Thumbs up

I see there are others with the power of "Force Long Post" around.. I must be cautious! ; )

I personally would love to see other lightsaber type weapons in this game, even if they are part of a "class based" type of thing or as weapon pickups. As long as it's balanced...

Kurgan
  you may: quote & reply,
Old 09-25-2001, 07:01 PM   #49
Myxale
 
Myxale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Germany and The Abyss
Posts: 66
Post

Staffs...
well made and game balanced Staffs.
Would be cool, if some Level -Bosses ( if there will be good ones ( pleas not so lame like in JK) that are using Staffs or ex. sabers.))

I personaly think a game with Jedi-Knight as name, must get more focused on "Jedi"

And whats a jedi's Weapon.....the Saber


An Ewok taste like a clown...a bit funny!!!
Myxale is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-12-2001, 08:30 AM   #50
Dae-Won Song
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Corellia
Posts: 1
Thumbs down

A lot of people don't seem to realise a lot of people help lagging. They can't afford cable or DSL, or it just isn't available in their area (This problem is large in Australia).

Think about it... in Australia, Cable is around $50 - $60, and that's fair enough, but it's only available in a few capital cities. DSL is at least $100 a month, which is ridiculous. Especially for me, being to young for a job...


"He who bringth presents, findth the door openth." - Old Agamarian Proverb
Dae-Won Song is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-12-2001, 12:36 PM   #51
Sifl
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 27
Post

How about this:

Have fast but weak attacks and strong but slow attacks. The strong attacks have more wind-up leaving you open for a quick hit. But the strong attack can break a block and leave the defending player open for a subsequent attack, a weak attack can never break a block.

I'd also like to see stuff like rolls and flips... but something I don't think anyone's mentioned- what about locking sabers? Two jedi with sabers locked, pushing against each other... anyone play Bushido Blade? You'd get locked together and then keep hitting your attack button over and over again until you knocked the other guy down. Pretty cool.

As for automatic blocking, I'm torn. I'd like the control, but an extra button could be a pain in the ass... maybe if they made it an option?
Sifl is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-12-2001, 03:03 PM   #52
SlowbieOne
 
SlowbieOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Cloud City, Bespin
Posts: 702
Post

The stong and weak attacks is a good idea, but button mashing??? What is this Nintendo?!!?? LOL

Honestly the button mashing parts of games really ticked me off.
SlowbieOne is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-12-2001, 09:55 PM   #53
Moses
 
Moses's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas, USA
Posts: 265
Post

I agree. Pressing a button repeatedly takes a lot of fun out of the game, not to mention a lot of energy out of my finger.


Strong am I with the force, but not that strong.
Moses is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-12-2001, 11:36 PM   #54
Randle Crow
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 7
Thumbs up

Blocking in JK was not based on an AI system it depended on where the cross hairs were. If you placed the cross hairs on a enemy that was shooting at you while you had the saber out the laser would be blocked 100% of the time. That is if only one enemy was shooting. It was more of a natural recation like a sheild then an AI. Blocking the saber worked the same way you had to be looking directly at the enemy sometimes it blocking secondary fire was impossiable.

The adding of a block button to JO would make the game superior JK. It is logical evilution of the game.
Randle Crow is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-13-2001, 12:03 AM   #55
StephenG
 
StephenG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 539
Post

Jedi Knight is a fast game and i think a blocking button will make the game slower.


Dieu me pardonnera. C'est son motier. (God will forgive me. It's his job.)
-Heinrich Heine
StephenG is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-13-2001, 01:17 AM   #56
Millions o' Monkeys
 
Millions o' Monkeys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 510
Post

geeze i hate reading long posts like that...thats why i didnt



ive thought about this alot and i cant actually think of how to make a good saber sytem. you know so its not like jk but also so it dosnt end up being close to impossible to hit the opponent

well its in good hands...(hear that raven im kissing your ass )
Millions o' Monkeys is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-13-2001, 05:03 AM   #57
Kurt Plummer
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 61
Post

People seem to think of sword work as 'block and attack' where both sides are 'trading' roles.

When in reality it might be better to think of it as both sides being offensive and diametrically opposed so that each is moving towards a common goal of breaking past the other's guard by changing 'leverage'.

Defensive moves are then only to be considered a form to alter position, reach and height plus blade angles of subsequent attack against an opponent who hold an advanatage in the current form.

According to the Masters, you shouldn't 'manually' separate the two into definitive elements because the switch between attack and defend will never happen (in your mind) quickly enough.

No matter how many buttons and mode options you have.

This is especially so when fighting with weapons as deliberately sharp as a Katana (and hence a saber, more specific massed weapon 'difficulties' in the SW universe) because you _cannot_ afford to meet edge to edge in more than the most oblique fashion.

Hence you 'bat' the weapons and fight head high and dual handed with the objective being purely to push through the (lateral) clash-of-flats and score a head tap.

Now if you switch to some of the killing arts (anything with a jutsu after it) you start to see more 'tennis' combinations where the blades come lower and there is switching between forehand blocks to bring the fight to a given range and then side and angled 'backhand' cuts to finish (and pass thru) the engagement **quickly**, drawing or sweeping and occasionally stabbing before switching back to what can only be described as a 'hack' to inflict deep slashing wounds (the kind that split torsos, very nasty).

You will also see MUCH more emphasis on 'testing' moves that are actually disabling kills (and multiple weapons to assist in this including shaken and small onblade knives/darts) to wrist/forearm, thighs/groin and knees, temples, eyes, and even ankles before lethal attacks at the neck or midbody.
Yet more 'unsportsmanlike' moves that you will NEVER seen in SW but which are in fact preferred because the targets are hard to cover and easily damaged beyond 'will to fight' overcome.

Comparing Shinai which sting with Bokkan which crush and Katana which butcher is silly yet you can bet (with all the safety and insurance requirements for actors and next-sequel to consider) that there is not much 'playing the edges' of the weapon envelope.

THIS is why, even when you see them 'really go at it' in EP.6 and EP.1 it is always to a basic center, slow and braced, contact point, never around the guard or against the limbs (yeah yeah, ESB) bearing up the dance/sword movements.

With this in mind, how realistic do you want it?

Go to full realism and the first mistake will be the last, even for a Jedi. There will be no grunted 'Ouuuwwwhh!' and short term stiffening because this meter long blow torch weapon will inflict shock and destructive damage like you can't believe.

And again, if it follows reality, people will be VERY tentative in the way they close, batting at the very edges of the envelope because they instinctively KNOW that there is going to be a much higher risk of an enemy attacking whatever is easiest, quickest, and least risky-to-reach.

Where this extends to manual attack-defense with such a firey horror, you will find yourself 'burnt once but never shamed again'.
And this too will effect the drama people seem to want in MP/online.

I would also like to point out that one of the biggest gripes of JK was that you couldn't close with blaster equipped targets, whether running or walking, without eating energy fire damage in-process (centering crosshairs in external view doesn't happen and is of questionable utility even in 1st person, IMO).

Add to this the limited perspective viewing and indeed /awareness/ (walls block sightline) and it was blatantly obvious in 'Batter Up!!, TPM The Game' that if you want a manual defensive blocking capability it had bloody well better be against the dumbest of 'up front' (no ambush) threats firing across a limited azimuth spread and very slowly or in limited (co-timed, shared deflect) bursts with low numbers of total shooters.

I would instead rather have the smartest possible Imps and other 'gun users' and 360` global awareness of super quick blocking, even as I move around the fight arena.

IMO, this means 'full auto' (to literally reflect the weapons rate of fire they are used against) and _perfect_ projectile-blocking, while you bring yourself close enough to 'get even'.

Either through standard running or an 'enter fight' translative movement (leap, or Jedi Jerk Speed ala the EP.1 scene with the Destroyers).

I like the idea of fighting with the Force Depletion blockign effect and would say that if you move to a linear graph (longer total 'strength bar') and most importantly _faster recharge_ it could definitely be made to work.

But I still say that if you want to fight another blade wielder, you must think of defensive work purely as 'tilting' the enemies blade for subsequent reattack in the same move.

That means auto-D(efense)-to-manual-O(ffense) with all the 'variety' (difficulty) of breaking past an enemies defensive web being inherent to analyzing the pattern of his bladework matching an attack style to it and then 'adding a flourish at the end' (manual final attack) to score the kill through the created hole.

This works well with my Kata system because it allows multiple cuts of a given type to both 'discover' that weakness and deplete the enemies blocking Force Strength too fast to regenerate.

While giving you the SKILL option of a quick-kill interrupt of the form with a modification blow based on your insight.

While Properly Programmed Katas, also mean you are hitting so skillfully that you never lose the 'flow' of combat dominance and suffer a leverage reversal sufficient to let the initiative go back to the other guy's attacks.

One last thing to consider: A Master will beat a Novice.

_Regardless_ (say 95% of the time).

Though admittedly simplifiedm if you think of it in terms of Martial Arts Belts the MtoA ratio is anything with 2 or more belts between them.

The (relative) expert will simply know more moves, be more insightful and waste less energy in his own motions (Force, whatever) to be altogether more slippery yet 'directed' in his total combat system.

With a bladed weapon, this almost always means death.

In the SW case, you might think of even Sabre fighting as being more like blocking blaster bolts, simple and easy and automatic for anyone you have a Kata (blade hit or form style) advantage over such that you CAN HAVE that 'emphasis on the Preferred Weapon of the Named Game' (sabre vs. sabre) with quick kills allowing you to 'also fight the next guy' instead of treating each encounter with a Jedi as a singular boss-monster (end level) of exclusive concentration.

How many of you could beat Jerec with a force of 5 Imps using heavy weapons to help him?

I thought so.

How many of you could beat Yun with 10 Imps using conventional blasters?

Probably rather more though it would still be viciously difficult.

The difference being the speed and 'style' (smoothness/ease) with which you dispatch your _primary threat_ to turn and deal with the secondary ones on a coaxis-deflect line.

If you design a level well, you will find sufficient numbers of 'less than or equal to you' sabre opponents to BECOME a master while there is nothing shameful in refusing a combat you can't win.

Nor a reason to insert an opponent who beats the crap out of you until you (dice toss learning curve) randomly succeed and move on.

'Difficult Encounters' might then be _combinations_ of sabre users (Quigon and Obiwan) or shooters and sabres (Imps+Jedi) or whatever and for each difficult encounter you would gain another kata or another programming space in the kata line or even simply 'more Force' (slower drain) so that when you finally came up against that 'Master Class' opponent you had the skills to make it a battle royalle of equal skill sets.

One last thing: I obviously use my computer for more than just Gameboy Leisure. I _do not_ want to 'mash' ANY key on my board.

If I need more defense (blocking movements) let me switch the cruise control to that mode. If I want more offense then let me increase weight that the auto-AI gives that ability as a function of Force-Use. Simply, elegantly, one-time press.


Kurt Plummer


LINKS-
Pretty Fair Explanation Of Fencing and Accompaniment Weapons Development http://users.aol.com/maist/fence-1.htm http://users.aol.com/maist/fence-2.htm
http://users.aol.com/maist/fence-3.htm
Kurt Plummer is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-13-2001, 09:14 AM   #58
Kurt Plummer
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 61
Post

Okay, now that I've found a copy...

'WHY I HATE ART OF THE LIGHT SABRE, 101'

There are TWO text file inclusions with the zip, one of which says readme, both of which are actually more like a credits list and license agreement.

There is not ONE shred of key-this-now tactical instruction!

Even with a basic understanding of the download page jpeg screen snaps diagrams (why can't these be shrunken to fit ON the page?) the 'flowingness' just isn't there because, as I suspected, you have to close up under fire and there are no guarded block-bolt-lunges once you do (literally to push a burning torch into their faces) rather it's same 'ol, same 'ol, with sideways twist-to-strafe or raised-guard, single arm, slashes that buy you a free blaster bolt, every time (so damn SLOOOOOOW!:-(.

Z-key attack, with it's funky Obiwan 'spin and slash' seems to have gotten yet /shorter/ in effective lethal distance! Arrrrghhhh!

The 'model' key which I've got set to L (have to bind all of these, with no damn instructions at all to say so) _doesn't work_. Where are all these supposed new skins? I've got both .goo's activated within Patch Commander...

Sabre on/off is okay but 'Combat Stance' seems worthless (hood up or down on my bathrobe.... Whoooopeeee, a 'convertible'! ;-(.

F10 'Force Sabre Fighting' seems to be highly un-uniform in it's use. I've faced down a single stormtrooper with the key 'mashed' and gotten hit every time while with the key /not pressed/ I got about 50-60% blockage. F-orce key on it's own sometimes doesn't seem to call up the power icon.

At the same time, I can be facing about 4-5 Imps in the second plateau area (with the rail detonator gunner in the balcony above the triple layer room) of the initial MOTS level and find myself blocking every darn shot from impossible angles but unable to get out of the key press loop long enough to get in some strokes. Uh-duhhhhh?????

Using FSF means no attacks that I can see and you oughta try FSF blocking, WASD maneuvering (different slashes, sometimes, I think), with _one hand_, while 'swinging' the mouse FOV with the other (btw, why does my V-key not work? This happened even before the install of AOTL).

Using the IAMAGOD cheat code My Force Heal doesn't seem to work. Not that it's not changed (as promised) it simply /isn't there at all/.

With either ; ' + F or as a binded single key.

This is a 'Major Pain' when I am trying desperately to stay alive long enough to master this new fighting system.

Sorry for my extended B&M about this 'different game' from JKO but I wanted to give it a shot so I could judge based on personal experience before suggesting that it NOT be in the new version. Yikes...


Next: Sabre-X anyone? Kurt Plummer
Kurt Plummer is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 10-13-2001, 12:03 PM   #59
StephenG
 
StephenG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 539
Post

Kurt, u could get a column in a Jedi Knight magazine...if there is one


Dieu me pardonnera. C'est son motier. (God will forgive me. It's his job.)
-Heinrich Heine
StephenG is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Game Discussion > Jedi Outcast > Jedi verse Jedi, Sabers Only

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:21 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.