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Old 08-12-2001, 06:21 AM   #1
DeathBoLT
 
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Post Concerns about saber strategies.

Jk2: JO saber play sounds so promising but will ducking/jumping under/over saber attacks actually be viable in Multiplayer? Will fighting agaisnt Dark Jedi/Light Jedi bots strategies be totally different from those to be used in multiplayer?

Ducking/jumping sounds greats but if they don't take steps to limit force speed, ducking and jumping and every other normal game speed saber evasion strategies will be useless agaisnt a speed happy player.

Elaborate saber fighting would be such a nice change from Jedi Knight's NF/FF saber play and I hope they protect it. JK2 needs to be verydifferent from JK. I don't know what I'd I do if it just ended up a JK clone.


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Old 08-12-2001, 04:01 PM   #2
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Welp, a JK2 clone would be less of a risk. Q1-3 where more or less the same (though improved) in MP gameplay. Changing to much means you will be going into unexplored areas, and thus run the risk of having JK2 MP not live up to what we expect.

Truth is though, it doesn't really matter how good the MP is. There are plenty of SWs fans, newbies, and casual gamers who won't care and play it anyway just because it's SW.

I watched the E3 video again last night and I though the jedi battle at the end may of lacked a bit. Sure, it looks a lot like the movies. But this is a game, not a movie. I get the feeling that they are sacrificing gameplay for the sake of making it movie like. That might be nice at first, but when you get down to it, JK2 is just another game.
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Old 08-12-2001, 04:08 PM   #3
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I'd reserve that judgement for a while yet.

See what people say after this quake thing cos people can have a proper look at this rather than the rushed job for E3, granted it was good, but now Raven can leave a bit more of their own mark on it....


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Old 08-12-2001, 07:04 PM   #4
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Yeah, E3 was three months ago. That was only three months into what is now a six month development period. Have faith...


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Old 08-12-2001, 08:59 PM   #5
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Making it like the movies doesn't sacrafice gameplay. It just sacrafices the sort of gameplay that you already know the strategies to. Fighting like they did in the movies sounds very fun actually.

Part of the fun of a new game is figuring out new strategies and how to win. Personally I hope that we find all of our JK mp strategies are useless in JK2 beyond the basic dming skills.

JK2(if they make it JK version 1.2) might be popular intially b/c of brand new graphics, etc. but its replay value will be cut short b/c people will realize, "hey, wait this gameplay isn't any different from the sort we saw 4 years ago." I know I, and many others, would not play Jk, even with new graphics, for another 4 years.


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Old 08-13-2001, 01:22 AM   #6
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i wonder if the saber will make such a good sign of peace still.. hmmmm...


^^^the above post is likely off topic^^^

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Old 08-13-2001, 02:01 AM   #7
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I don't really see what everyone is worried about. I found the saber fighting in JK to be quite boring and repetitive. Same swing over and over and over and over.... From what we have seen already in JKO, it looks like there is a lot of strategy involved in saber fighting, rather than running around and doing the same ugly swing again and again. And just a reminder, Star Wars was a movie looooong before good games came along. So YES, it SHOULD be like the movie. This game would not even exist if not for the movie. There is just no way on earth this game will suck in any way shape or form.
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Old 08-13-2001, 04:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Ducking/jumping sounds greats but if they don't take steps to limit force speed, ducking and jumping and every other normal game speed saber evasion strategies will be useless agaisnt a speed happy player.
Yes, I hope they do limit speed, not only its usage but the actual speed boost. While I dont this it was to fast in JK that was because the saber was rarely used. If you want epic saber duels they cant be at force speed speed. Force speed has its place in a duel, but it should be short and to gain the upper hand. By serverly limiting it, it becomes a strategic advantage "up your proverbial sleave".

Also, I hope jumping and ducking are advanced saber tactics. If the saber was slowed down to the point where anybody could jump/duck it, I think its swing speed would be too slow to be a useful weapon(again). If it was possible, but difficult to do do, then it would be good. You could still use basic evation tactics. Side Strafing , jump back, run backwards to avoid a hit if you didnt want to block it for some reason. But learning to jump/duck would give you a better advantage, as they recover from their swing you can launch a counter-attack.

This is the kind of thing that adds to the life of the saber. If you can keep the saber simple enough for anyone to use but give it enough moves/stratagies/timing that an experienced player has the advantage, then people will keep using it to become better. If not then it just becomes JK's saber. Boring.

I hope Raven can make fighting agaisnt Dark Jedi/Light Jedi bots strategies aproximate those used in multiplayer, I would like to think starting a game with nightmare Jedi would help someone prepare somewhat for fighting actual people across the Internet.


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Old 08-13-2001, 07:54 PM   #9
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nejja, i wonder if guns will still require a lawyer just to get through all the rules and regs involved in playing it.



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Old 08-13-2001, 08:29 PM   #10
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If Force speed were of limited duration it would be more fun to play with in combat. Short spurts of speed, rather than long runs of speed.

How about a 'cooldown duration' after using speed: You would have to wait a number of seconds (say, 20-30 sec)to cool down before activating it again, so you would not have a continuous stream of speed.

This way, you would have to use speed with prudence, rather than just as normal background movement, always on by default.

Would be more fun to to ask 'is this the right time to activate speed?' than to reflexively activate it 90% of the time.

Also ducking under/jumping over sabers sounds like great fun, should make for more intense duels than original JK/MotS. Sounds like the collision system will support this.


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Old 08-14-2001, 01:43 PM   #11
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Which brings us back to a stamina meter, much like the one used in Diablo II. Of course, for Jedi, just running around and jumping normally should not take up much stamina, but continuously they should take their toll.

This way people would really have to plan their attacks to use the least amount of energy. You would almost have "battles of attrition", just like tennis, where one player tries to wear out the other to the point where he can't react in time to stop the winning shot.

As for the stamina drain on force powers, there will likely be a force mana pool that will decrease and help to stop continued use of powers. However, I think it may be best to link the more physical force powers (run, jump) directly to stamina, and they should take a great deal out of the Jedi that uses them.

If you want to see some backing to this argument, just watch Episode 1; Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon use force run sparingly in the beginning of the movie, so we know that it exists in SW cannon. Later on, Obi-Wan jumps from the lower levels of the final duel area up to the top platform, but he DOES NOT use FORCE RUN to catch up to Maul and Qui-Gon. This has been explained many times over, many different ways, but it could carry with it the implication that Obi-Wan was too 'tired', after fighting Maul, falling a hundred or so feet, and then jumping back up, to use run.

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Averron ]
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Old 08-14-2001, 01:59 PM   #12
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While stamina has its place in some games, even in some FPSers (because Diablo 2 is a totally different game with different gameplay), I dont think it should be included in JK2. My reasons are 1) Running speed and overall gameplay speed will most likely be slowed down a bit, and 2) Stamina would slow down the game too much.

If you are in the middle of a saber fight, limiting Force speed is one thing, it becomes a boost and could turn the tide of battle. But having stamina that continually runs out would be frustrating, imagine in the middle of a saber battle your stamina runs out and you slow to a crawl, you would have a huge disadvantage in the rest of the battle (which wouldnt last long, your opponent would kill you quite quickly).

No, Force speed should either consume so much mana once used it takes a while to recharge your mana, or it tires you out so much that there is a cooldown period (as Wilhuf suggested) that you must wait a certain amount of time before you can use it again.

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]


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Old 08-14-2001, 02:59 PM   #13
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When I used to play Jedi Knight in MP nobody ever used speed or at least not very often. Maybe just when they were in the open of snipers.


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Old 08-14-2001, 09:34 PM   #14
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Using speed should simply have overpowering disadvantages for using it for dueling, or limiting disadvantages so it lent itself to being used as a tactic but not necessarily a dominant one.

Mebe have it reduce the # of swings u have at your disposal, or load an entirely different set of swings that are not as adaptive or do less damage.

Mebe have it do considerably more damage when u run into a saber going 80 as opposed to 15.

Mebe make it easier to be disarmed when you are using speed, make it impossible to do certain maneuvers when using speed, ie saber throw.

Increase the size of the contact areas for insta kills with lightsaber when using speed.

If yer thinking of guns:

Speed should be limited slightly as afore mentioned, and other powers and strategies should be implimented to balance out the advantage of using speed.

IE, it hurts more when u get popped with a bullet goin 80, mebe there's a slight wobble to fight against when aiming. Saber thro is either automated or simply impossible. Power of other Force powers are reduced.

U *should* be able to keep speed on constantly, it should *not* be limited by mana, however it should be *one* strategy of many, and thus be balanced against the strategy of say, not using speed.

JK presented us with one strategy, and i think that should be preserved, however JK2 should offer up a few new strategies and they should all be balanced against eachother.

Eliminating the idea of keeping speed on would kill off somthin from the JK legacy, but at the same time, being forced to use speed constantly sacrifices a lot of the DF legacy and limits the new things they can introduce into the game.

I don't think it should be elim'nd with mana management, thats too easy, and i don't think it should be pussed out into somthing thats less than what it was in JK, thats also too easy.

It should simply be tamed with simplistic realistic disadvantages like the ones i mentioned, and *balanced* with other strategies that present u with numerous different choices.

Rocketing around is fun, but there should be a few well thought out reasons for not doing it *all* the time, and a VERY large set of specific and general reasons for doing it either all the time or at certain times, thus adding to the skill curve and the replayability of the game. So there. =P

Lucky


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