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Old 08-14-2001, 07:04 AM   #1
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Post Gamespot preview

im not sure if we've seen this one yet, but anyway.....

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories...803849,00.html

Quote:
Dan Pettit, the LucasArts representative at the presentation, explained that Kyle is following a middle path in the force, and so has both light and dark powers at his disposal.
did we know that? the middle path?


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Old 08-14-2001, 10:59 AM   #2
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Does there even exist a middle path?

I thought that you were either GOOD, or you were definitely evil!
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Old 08-14-2001, 11:12 AM   #3
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Yeah, good question.

I'm also wondering why specific powers are designated as 'evil' powers. How come a Jedi following the light side can't use Force Lightning? If he uses it for good, there shouldn't be a difference.

Oh well...
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Old 08-14-2001, 03:28 PM   #4
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maybe he isnt a full jedi yet, so, both are at his disposal, such as in jk, but, its funny we have never heard of this in EU or anyplace, for that matter...

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Old 08-14-2001, 03:43 PM   #5
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I would think that he isnt a full Jedi, because he has allowed his powers to languish, but the phrasing is middle path. This denotes that it is not a temporary arrangement, due to him once again being an appretice, but an actual course that he takes.

And the logical explaination for why we havent heard of it before is because they probably just recently created it for JK2, because they decided not to do the choice of lightside/darkside thing again. I mean come on, this isnt the first time something has just been added to a universe out of need to explain something.

Some reasons why they chose not to do the force path maybe because 1) so they can focus on one good exciting storyline instead of worrying what happens if you choose light or dark. 2) Perhaps they can balance the force better in MP if everyone has potencial access to the same powers.

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]


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Old 08-14-2001, 04:06 PM   #6
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I find this 'middle path' appropriate for the position Kyle finds himself in.

If he was so worried about falling to the darkside you would think he would make a conscious effort to not use any so-called 'dark side powers' when he makes the decision to start fighting again.

I suppose that when the galaxy needs saving, sometimes you've just got to get things done. When this threat comes across the galaxy and Kyle on such short notice, I'm sure using a few 'dark side powers' would definitely be the quicker way to get mobilized and into action. I remember a certain someone saying that the Dark Side is not in fact stronger, but this mantra might not translate directly into such things as Force Powers in a video game.

As for the 'It's not a dark side power if you don't use it for a dark purpose' debate, that my friends is the cause of many a Force Long Post battle. Just don't let Kurgan see this
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Old 08-14-2001, 04:21 PM   #7
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I dont think this is anything particular to worry about. I have said it before and I will say it again, just because you are a lightside jedi shouldn't make you only choose "lightside powers.

All the powers should be equally balanced. and as for lightning I think the emperor should be the only one able to do this as he is the darkest of them all. But as this is a game, they have to include it...

No doubt we will have a huge debate when we know a little more.

Perhaps anyone from RAVEN could enlighten us?

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Old 08-17-2001, 05:59 PM   #8
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hey, didnt luke use force choke when he was saving han solo from jabba's palace? On those pig guys at the begining... if he can do it.. why not kyle..
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Old 08-17-2001, 09:45 PM   #9
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I think it would be great if somehow you could take your force stats from dark forces 2 or mots and have them imported to continue playing and building on those, ofcourse I bet theres a whole new skill development tree in this game but thats just my 2 cents
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Old 08-18-2001, 01:42 AM   #10
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Yes Skywalker used force choke on the gammorrean guards, even after Yoda instructed him never to use dark powers, and there is no why. That always confused me too. Maybe since Skywalker is the master now, he has his own rules of the force now. Maybe he tells Kyle it's OK to use all different powers within the force, as long as it's for good as Krayt Tion said. Then again, maybe not,heh.
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Old 08-18-2001, 03:56 AM   #11
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well when comparing to star wars movies, don't think of it in terms of 'Force Grip' but in terms of using force telekensisis to choke your enemy. the same telekenisis used to pull weapons from your opposition's hands, manipulate controls, lift up girl's dresses, etc.

still the best way to think of it as the commonly used 'its only dark when used for dark purposes' argument(which is true btw )


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Old 08-18-2001, 05:59 AM   #12
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it was just force sleep hold. im sure he didnt actually kill them. probably just rendered them unconscious while he did his dirty work.

im sure they woke up later feeling find and dandy

we didnt hear that sickening bone crushing noise like in jk, so im sure we can probably just say he temporarily disabled their breathing


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Old 08-18-2001, 09:19 AM   #13
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hey,

mabey the light and dark side don't suit Kyle since he's been there before, so he's going the middle way and mabey this has angered the other Jedi and everybody else making him an outcast,

Then he has to prove himself by wiping out the rest of the Dark Jedi
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Old 08-18-2001, 09:41 AM   #14
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[eVe]DeathBoLT is right,

It is just Telekinesis but used in a different way.

Vader uses it to throw objects at LUKE in ESB but it is also the same prinicple as pulling a weapon out of an opponent's hand.

Its How you use it that counts..

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Old 08-18-2001, 06:08 PM   #15
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Actually, if one considers the EU to be canon, Mara Jade actually followed a non-Dar/Light path until _Vision of the Future_. The reason she was able to keep from the DS despite her practices (ie assassinations) was that she acted out of selflessness. Though she was a tool of great evil, she always acted out of a sense of duty and honor. Had she been acting for herself, she would have surely fallen.

The Jensaarai were an entire Force-tradition that strayed between Light and Dark. They hated the Jedi, and based their teachings on Sith texts, but they were totally devoted to the defence of their world. They never fell to the Dark Side because they acted out of a sense of resposibility to their world, yet were never Light because of their hatered for the outside universe.

Katarn, being the soldier that he is (or was), could probably fit in those ranks.

[ August 19, 2001: Message edited by: Bookmaker221 ]


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Old 08-19-2001, 07:56 AM   #16
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<font color=cbcbff>I have been reading this forum since day 1, but I haven't really felt the need to post until now. Yoda is the supreme master of the light side of the force. What he says goes, no matter what. Luke had haphazard training that took place over a span of around 2 or 3 years. Compared to the Jedi of the old republic, that is less training than the lowest student has. Luke would not even be eligible to be taken as an apprentice yet. And when he used the force to choke those guards, they were not damaged, only temporarily dispatched.

The powers are dark for the simple reason that the force can be used "Only for knowledge and defense" and "never for attack". Using the force directly to harm a living creature, especially for personal gain is the dark side. And blasting someone with bolts of electricity or lifting them by their neck would most definitely fall into that classification. I don't think it's a bad idea to have access to all of the powers of the force, because every jedi has the ABILITY to use the force for wrong, but are bound by the Jedi Code not to. A power such as lightsaber throw I'm guessing is not considered dark because Kyle isn't using the force directly on his enemy, he's using it on his lightsaber. The lightsaber is doing the killing. For some reason that's ok and throwing an industrial freezer at your enemy is evil. I'm confused about that one myself.

I think it said somewhere that the NPCs would be effected by the way you used your powers around them. I'm guessing that for an example, if you were to blast something with lightning, an NPC would be made slightly uneasy. I know I would be.

Anyway, in closing, the alignment of a power is not determined by the purpose for which it is used. It's determined by Yoda's simple statement. Is it knowledge? defense? Or is it attack?

I'm supposing that Kyle will always have access to every force power, and only the most disciplined Jedi will be able to restrain themselves from using such powers as lightning and choke.

[ August 19, 2001: Message edited by: Obi ]
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Old 08-19-2001, 04:37 PM   #17
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But this is getting into the deeper meanings behind the SW movies, and perhaps over-analyzing them. Where does one draw the line between defence and attack? Luke used the Force when making the Death Star trench run, destroying the station. Certainly he killed those trying to destroy his friends, but what about the thousands of enlisted men who were out of all likelyhood kept in the dark about their mission? Were they inherintly evil by association, acceptable casualties, or did Luke skirttail the Dark briefly? Or perhaps the Death Star II situation brought up in Clerks?

Additionally, what of the whole "balance to the Force" prophecy introduced in TPM? Should we assume then that Luke's use of telekenesis was within the realm of the Dark Side, but his using that ability was now part of a new acceptable paradigm?

And what of the Dark Side to non-Force activities. If a stormtrooper shoots a civilian for fun, should it not be said that he has committed an act of the Dark Side, despite the fact that said stormtrooper is not aware of the Force? Now lets suppose Katarn, for whatever reason, desides to shoot a civie (happened in my game a few times). Now, he could just as easliy kill the civie with the Force, but instead shoots him/her with a blaster. Is Katarn any more or less likely to fall to the Dark Side than a stormtrooper?

In my mind, the Force is nothing more than a tool. It is what is done by the one who does or doesn't yield it that determines whether it is of the Dark Side or not. If a Jedi uses the Force to call down a support beam onto a salesman's head, his/her intent was still to kill, despite the fact that the telekenisis was applied to an inanimate object. Likewise, if a Jedi developes the ability to throw lightning, its use would not be neccisarily evil unless used in the pursuit of causing harm. Suppose Katarn's landspeeder goes dead, and the battery needs a boost. Does he destroy his soul because he's trying to jumpstart his ride? (To any purists, yes, I know Lightning pulls the target's connection to the Force more than carries a real charge, but go with it.)

And what about the Jedi Code and the old Light Side traditions? Read the Jedi Code in detail. If taken literally, the Code preaches callousness and restraint. It was not the purpose of the Jedi to ensure peace, but allow peace to be possible. Take for instance (again) TPM: Qui-Gon, originally, had little interest in freeing Anakin. He knew that slavery existed, but such were the affairs of the masses, and not worth the attention of the grand scale the Jedi worked. Not, at least, until Qui-Gon discovered the gift Anakin had. Then suddenly it became not about freeing slaves, but bringing another Jedi into the fold, and perhaps fulfil a prophecy. Compare this to Luke, who risked all his training to save his friends. Taking such a risk for a few friends requires emotions and self-involvement, ideas which the Sith held. Yet by taking this course of action, he was able to commit a great act of heroism that few Jedi of the old Code would have taken.


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Old 08-20-2001, 03:05 AM   #18
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<font color=cbcbff> You have indeed raised some good points, Bookmaker.

I think that it's easiest to draw the line by keeping it simple. A Jedi is made a Jedi by the fact that he is sensitive to and has the ability to use the force. The reason the Jedi follow the code that they follow is to keep them from using that advantage that they have over everyone(the force) in a bad way.

There doesn't seem to be anything restraining the Jedi from indirectly using the force to cause harm, or using the lightsaber. It seems that an act of the dark side can only be committed through the force, by using it for personal gain, or to directly attack another living thing. I think you'll see that the emperor switches from droids to stormtroopers for that exact reason. A Jedi doesn't need to hold back on a droid because it's not alive. Qui-Gon just thrashed a few droids right into a wall in an extremely violent manner.

Force push is a difficult one, because it's not necessarily being used to cause direct harm. Regardless of the intent. If you use it to nudge a stormtrooper off of a cliff, I think the rules of the light side could be interpreted as allowing it to be used that way because the force isn't causing any harm whatsoever to the trooper, the ground at the bottom of the cliff is.

As for the code changing. I don't think that's necessarily true, it's just that when Luke was a fledgling Jedi, Yoda and Obi-Wan were both dead, and he really had to find the path for himself. If you notice, in the newer books, he's a lot more careful of how he uses the force. He comes to this realization in one of the EU books. I think it's Vision of the Future. He says something along the lines of how using the force to its full extents of raw power is like shouting, and it makes it so you can't hear the "whispers" of the will of the force.

But anyway, we're talking about the reasons behind the game here, and I think lightning and grip can definitely be classed as "evil" or dark side powers for the simple fact that they are directly applied to the opponent to cause harm. As for your steel girder on the salesman's head thing; as immoral as it sounds, it would probably be accepted by the jedi under certain circumstances. If you want to get into the philosophical background behind it all, which is a little too deep for this post I think, you could say that if it was necessary for the well being of yourself or others to crush the salesman mercilessly, it would be allowed. However, if it was for fun, or personal gain, it would be an act dripping with the evils of the dark side.
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Old 08-20-2001, 05:35 PM   #19
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Hope this doesn't sound sacrilegious to anyone here, but you could, as an example, try looking at this from a religious perspective.

Different religions, let's say if you put them in the shoes of the Jedi, would view this differently. Here are some examples (generic views):

Wiccan:

"An it harm none, do as thou wilt."
So as long as you aren't hurting anyone, you can use the force for anything you want. So they would be force pacifists, if taken literally. A "white witch" would do "good" for others, a "black witch" would do bad for others. White witches would be authorized to combat black witches.

Satanist:

"Do as thou wilt is the whole of the law."

So whatever you want, if you feel like being good, that's okay. If you feel like hurting someone, that's okay too. Neither would be "wrong" from this point of view.

Christian/Jew/Muslim:

Do good, and have faith. So as long as your powers are derived from good and to do good, then it's okay... following the example of the Master and His follwers (do unto others as you would have them do unto you). So no harm.

Sorceror:

Since it is all about aquiring power, you fight to gain power, so fighting is necessary. A good sorceror works for the good of others, a bad sorceror works only for the good of himself.

Buddhist:

The middle path. That is, you follow your duty without attachment, and thus spare the extremes of good/evil, hedonism/aeseticism, etc.

Janist:

Since there is Karma, one's actions directly affect their fate. So any harm you do will come back, thus no harm is allowed. Pacifism.

Hinduist:

Many paths. Could include pacificism, or could include fighting, but without attachment, etc.

Confucianist:

For the greater good, and for the protection of family, friends, and nation, one could fight.

Most religions of course would probably make a provision for "self defense." There are those who would discuss the principles of a "just war" and there are those who would make a case for "crusades" and other such things, but in general most would consider violence acceptable in only certain circumstances, as I would imagine the Jedi would as well.
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Old 08-21-2001, 02:25 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Simpson:
<STRONG>Yeah, good question.

I'm also wondering why specific powers are designated as 'evil' powers. How come a Jedi following the light side can't use Force Lightning? If he uses it for good, there shouldn't be a difference.

Oh well...</STRONG>
Ok...the force lightning, choke, etc. are manifestations of negative emotions such as fear, anger, hatred in the physical form. When you come to think of it, light side Jedi keep their emotions in check, basically in that they try not to act on impulse or emotion, they use the force for guidance. Dark Jedi are guided by their negative emotions and use the force as a tool to manipulate others and their surroundings to their wishes. That is the difference. Dark Jedi have powers that inflict hurt on others, and light Jedi have powers that help others. Btw, if you read the books, light Jedi also have the capability of summoning lightning (i think it was I, Jedi) by manipulating the atoms in the air and exciting (heating) them to a plasma state.
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Old 08-21-2001, 11:19 AM   #21
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While its true that the examples of Grip and Lightning were used in anger/frustration, it doesn't mean that they can only be used in that way. The Dark Side makes such feats, particularly those that involve energy manifestations, easier, as the Force-user in question fuels the ability with raw emotion. However, as with most things, if the user cannot taper his anger, any use of such powers can be overwhelming, and create a possible danger for him/herself and others. The Sith were a threat because they sought to combine emotions with discipline, tapping the primal energies while maintaining control. This is why the Jedi foccused on the Sith more than any other Dark Side path: they were the greatest threat.

Now don't believe that the Sith were in any way better. Despite their plan, they still foccused on negative emotions, such as greed, anger, etc. These emotions when exercised regularly can overwhelm any self-control imposed. The Jedi, in knowing this, preached control over all emotions, curtailing (nearly) any and all threat that one of their own could fall to hatered. They took in Padawans at a young age, seperating them from their families to eliminate ties, and frowned upon Jedi who used things like intuituition of reasoning (Qui-Gon was notorious for this).

Post-Empire Jedi are a different matter entirely. Luke, against the advice of Yoda and Obi-Wan, acted out of emotion at both Bespin and Endor. At Bespin it was mainly anger against Vader for the death of Obi-Wan, resulting in his loss of his hand. At Endor, he called upon the love of his father, which won the day out. By calling upon a positive emotion, something which the old Code would never allow, inexperienced Luke won where the entire old tradition fell. He, and in the end Vader as well, successfully blended the two traditions into a new creature entirely. In the EU, Luke went on to try and rebuild the Jedi, but from the system he knew, not the Old way. His period of darkness came when he lost control of his use of the Force. He lost his balance between rational (old Code) and emotion (Sith). He regained this balance by toning himself back down, and going back to his old methodes, not those he tried to mimmic from the old ways (Sith in DE, Code during and after Jedi Academy).


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Old 08-21-2001, 03:17 PM   #22
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Hmm, I always thought the concept was for the Force to be the Force. It just is, it's the user that determines light and darkness.
That was the portrayal in Darth Maul - Shadow Hunter, anywho.
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Old 08-22-2001, 01:28 AM   #23
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That's really all it is in a practical sense. However, if you want to get technical, there really is no "light" or "dark" side, these are just states as defind by a particular paradigm. What is acceptable for Jedi post-Empire can be much more proactive than what was acceptable for Old Jedi. But, I'll assume that the paradigm of the movies, that the Force is a metaphore for faith and spirit, is what is being accepted here.


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