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Old 09-23-2001, 11:05 PM   #1
Kurgan
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Arrow Latest update on "Cooperative play"

Looks like they're keeping us guessing.. the line about multiplayer modes in the JK2 section of LEC's page changes again:

Quote:
Two multiplayer modes: Jedi training and team-based play
Previously it mentioned Capture the Flag, and before that as we know it talked about "cooperative team based play" etc.

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[ September 23, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]
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Old 09-24-2001, 03:03 PM   #2
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Capture the Flag seems weird in the Star Wars universe to me. I would rather they implemented Kill the Fool with the Ysalamiri.
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Old 09-24-2001, 06:42 PM   #3
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Kurgan, go to the official site from the product site and under features it has...

Multi-player options including, deathmatch, saber-only deathmatch, and team capture the flag
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Old 09-24-2001, 07:52 PM   #4
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Alright, I'm going to start taking screen grabs and posting them from now on, since some people don't believe me...

<a href="http://www.public.iastate.edu/~kurgan/9-24-01-400pmcst.jpg">Here is the shot I just took (well I dated it a few minute early, but it's current)</a>

<a href="http://www.lucasarts.com/products/outcast/splash.htm">Compare to the official page (hit refresh)</a>

Watch this space for possible future snapshots...

Kurgan

[ September 24, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]
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Old 09-24-2001, 07:54 PM   #5
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Don't worry kurgs, Ive seen it change a few times also..


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Old 09-24-2001, 08:09 PM   #6
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I think the MP side of JK could be made a great deal better if they would just extend that deadline. I mean, from what I've been reading about the RTCW MP test release, that is focused a lot more on objectives, rather than frags - and I think that is how JK2 should go for team-based play.

Deathmatch is fine - especially if there is an arena for 1 v 1 and a free-for-all (a la Rune). But a standard CTF mode doesn't seem to fit in very well, IMHO. I think it would be far, far better if they tried to emulate some of the SP levels from the original Dark Forces, to use as an MP setting.

For those who've played DF, if you cast your minds back, most levels were separate missions - either to steal plans, a secret weapon, destroy a mining or research facility, or break out a prisoner from the detention block. Those were all great missions.

If those types of missions (reduced in scale, of course) could be translated into an MP setting, I think it would make JK2 into an excellent MP experience, and potentially attract a larger MP community.

I'm not saying it should have all the MP functionality of something like UT, but there is certainly scope for an assault-type mission, an escort-type mission, a retrieval-type mission (which would be close to CTF, except you trade a flag for something else that fits within the context of the game).

There would also be scope for having a variety of classes, like engineers, Jedi, soldiers, etc., etc., like CS.

I'm sure a lot of these types of levels could be done as Mods, but it would be nice to have that kind of basic functionality out of the box.

If it cannot be included in JK2, perhaps it is something they should consider for the near future.
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Old 09-24-2001, 08:42 PM   #7
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Well, Wolf MP is being developed by a different company all together from the one making the single player campaigns (at least last time I checked). Unless Raven clones themselves they aren't going to have that luxury.

I agree that standard CTF is a little dry and it is good to at least give any team-based objectives a little more creativity. This creativity should mean something fun that also ties into the Star Wars universe, so we aren't running around just 'capturing flags.' Assault, escort (you might remember that PC Obi-Wan was going to have an escort the Queen mode), retrieval type of missions all sound good to me.

Although I love team vs. team play, let's not rule out that people could get some good use out of co-op missions of similar calibur against enemy AI. That would be better suited for missions that weren't "reduced in scale" though, whole levels you could play through with your peers.

I absolutely *love* class-based team-based play and would embrace that with open arms for JO. That would be my heaven. CS has no classes though, the variety is in the weapon choices.

Anyways, I think the fact they have changed part of the multiplayer description from specifically mentioning CTF to just "team-based play" is a good sign that they are considering something a lot snazzier or with more depth to it. Maybe even more than one kind of team-based play.
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Old 09-24-2001, 09:01 PM   #8
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Ooops...did I say CS? I think I meant TFC.

And yeah, I know RTCW MP is being developed by Nerve. As I said, maybe they could focus on a large MP addition to JK2 after JK2 hits the shelves...similar to what happened with Rune and it's MP expansion pack HOV.
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Old 09-24-2001, 09:13 PM   #9
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Although it would be nice to have it for the initial release, I would support with my wallet an expansion based heavily around team-based multiplayer.

On the other hand I would still be a bit angered that they had to make an expansion to include some decent team-based multiplayer options that should have been there to begin with. *cough* TA *cough* It would have to be one meaty expansion.
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Old 09-25-2001, 12:11 AM   #10
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What I DON'T want to see is just two mods: ffa deathmatch and team deathmatch.

I also don't want to see what they did with Aliens Vs. Predator.. with the "skirmish" mode (a level with no goals, and respawning enemies). That's just really boring, and the easy way out IMHO.

I mean yeah, it's true that whatever the team decides to do we have to live with, but I hope they try for something more fun and innovative, even if it is an old staple like CTF. If it's really well done, I'll play it, just something that's worthwhile instead of the same old same old...

The more options the better, though that's not to say they should simply sacrifice quantity for quality either. Class based options for play would be great (MotS was really fun because of this and lent more strategies than before).

I'd love to see coop (multiplayer completion of the single player campaign, like in Serious Sam), or something as fun as KFY, Assault (like in UT), etc. I like the idea of mutators like UT has, to make small changes in gameplay in addition to game modes.

The proposed modes for Obi-Wan PC would be a nice place to get ideas too...

Like you Krayt, I hope they don't skimp on the Multiplayer and then release it later as an expansion. I think that kills the whole sense of community, but cutting off the people who just buy the original game and that's it from the hardcores who buy the expansion. I love expansions, but when I got HOV, I ended up spending most of my time playing people in the original Rune levels (not that I've had that much time to play, but over the summer I tried). At least when all the levels are there, people can experiment and play around with it, even if they are stuck with the base package.

Granted, I love expansions and I hope there is one (or more) for JK2, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse to rush the game and leave out stuff that should have shipped with the game.

I know it's a project with high expectations, but I'd rather see the game be delayed (not on the scale of Duke Nukem Forever of course, or Obi-Wan) if it could be that much better, rather than see it rushed and end up being mediocre. Good luck Raven/LEC!

Kurgan

[ September 24, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]
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Old 09-25-2001, 01:56 AM   #11
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I've noticed the change as well.

Quote:
Capture the Flag seems weird in the Star Wars universe to me. I would rather they implemented Kill the Fool with the Ysalamiri.
Why is CTF in the SW universe weird? Are you saying that it's difficult to justify it with the SW storyline? If so, I would use Pod/Swoop Racing as examples of how CTF fits into the universe. It's simply a competition/game within the universe.

Quote:
But a standard CTF mode doesn't seem to fit in very well, IMHO.
If by standard, you mean the mediocre CTF that we find in games like EF and Q3, then I would have to agree, although Q3 CCTF is great. If you mean that CTF in general doesn't fit in, I would urge you to read the above. I simply don't understand why people would discount CTF so quickly. Am I missing something or misunderstanding?

Quote:
I agree that standard CTF is a little dry and it is good to at least give any team-based objectives a little more creativity.
/me is starting to think that none of you ever played JK CTF or never really understood how complex it is, compared to any other form of CTF in existence.

Quote:
This creativity should mean something fun that also ties into the Star Wars universe, so we aren't running around just 'capturing flags.'
Refer to first paragraph. We can't take away from the hardcore modes and gameplay, just to satisfy role-players.

Quote:
Assault, escort (you might remember that PC Obi-Wan was going to have an escort the Queen mode), retrieval type of missions all sound good to me.
Agreed.

Quote:
Anyways, I think the fact they have changed part of the multiplayer description from specifically mentioning CTF to just "team-based play" is a good sign that they are considering something a lot snazzier or with more depth to it.
CTF is far more complex than DM, even with class-based DM. I just can't fathom why people wouldn't want it included. There are hundreds of people that are looking forward to JO simply because of the CTF. I'm finding it hard to believe that Raven would be ignorant enough to leave out one of the most popular/important aspects of online play.

Raven should base JO CTF on JK CTF to an extent. EF and Q3 CTF was very stale. I won't even talk about TFC...ugh. You can't even compare JK CTF with anything else. It's simply in it's own category/level. I urge Raven to try it out if they haven't already and to consider continuing in the JK CTF tradition. And as Kurgan stated before in another post, MotS CTF was great, because you could use personalities. Something like this would be fun for JO as well.

I don't know what to say to you forum people. Blasphemy, blasphemy, blasphemy.

/me just can't believe what he's seeing. The death of JO before it's release.
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Old 09-25-2001, 02:11 AM   #12
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I agree with reactor



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Old 09-25-2001, 04:35 AM   #13
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I don't. The reason I don't want CTF is because it's only been done 1,000 times. How bout something new for once?
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Old 09-25-2001, 05:38 AM   #14
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one could say the same about deathmatch. but its not just youre regular old ctf. combined with force and a star wars atmosphere, perhaps even a star wars twist on the whole mode, it could turn out to be quite an excellent gameplay style....


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Old 09-25-2001, 10:56 AM   #15
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I just hope someone from RAVEN is reading this post.


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Old 09-25-2001, 11:32 AM   #16
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oh they are


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Old 09-25-2001, 01:19 PM   #17
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Posted by GonkH8er
Quote:
One could say the same about deathmatch.
Yes, but the Slowbie's logic could also be applied to DM in the same regard as CTF. The problem is there are those who want to experiment with new types and there are those who want their "classic" (insert game type here).

You can't please everyone all the time, and if you try to include every option or every game type you will run out of time and dilute the gameplay. You can only have so many choices.

Having said that I would like to see all the "standard" types we know get a working over by Raven, and altered, but I'm sure many will disagree.

[ September 25, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]


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Old 09-25-2001, 02:15 PM   #18
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The reason I don't want CTF is because it's only been done 1,000 times. How bout something new for once?
Have you ever played JK CTF? There is nothing in this world that is like it. It's anything but standard. There are color coded keys, force fields, catwalks, elevators, thrust tubes, high altitude, vast levels. secret roofing areas and so many doors you wouldn't know what to do with them all, without spending months and months just mastering the levels. Now if you've only played CTF: The Duel, I could understand why you would not want them to do CTF, but if you've played CTF: The Challenge At Nar Shaddaa or any of the addon levels such as the great CTF: Fusion or CTF: Ground Zero II you would understand that it's nothing that has been done before. Sure, CTF in most games is stale and everything in them seems like it was in 100 other games, but I urge you and anyone who disagrees, to sit down and go over The Challenge At Nar Shaddaa(large level opened) and Team Fusion CTF(available at massassi.net). While you're at it, play with NF and look out for the hundreds of places to hide and rail jump/mine jump/conc jump to.

Quote:
I just hope someone from RAVEN is reading this post.
Same here. There is a large community of CTFers that play JK CTF and are looking forward to JO CTF. Alot of us only play CTF, because we've grown bored of JK DM.

Quote:
Having said that I would like to see all the "standard" types we know get a working over by Raven, and altered, but I'm sure many will disagree.
I agree. I'm just hoping that they don't omit everything that made JK CTF so great. I would have left JK years ago if it weren't for the complex CTF maps that are available. I urge Raven to keep the old that was good, and possibly add some new as well. Not having CTF, IMO would be a huge mistake and could possibly turn away thousands of people. If you guys need any help with the concept of JK CTF, simply contact the expert, Mormegil(http://www.teamfusion.org).
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Old 09-25-2001, 03:07 PM   #19
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The sad thing about gaming is that it would be very hard to incorporate everything that everyone would ever want. In some ways, my expectations for games have gone up...in other ways, I have less expectations...namely, for a game that claims to be focusing on a great single player experience, I fully expect that MP is going to take a back seat. I certainly don't KNOW that it will take a back seat, I'm just trying to keep reasonable expectations. I mean, just look at how many single player games out there actually SHIP with MP anymore. Surely many do..and will continue to, but more and more games are claiming they will deliver it later...if at all.

Fortunately, Mod'ers can fill much of that MP void ( assuming there even is one ). So, even if we only get basic game types out of the box ( which is far better than nothing ), we seem to have a fair amount of dedicated Mod'ers out there who can help fill in the gaps. I'm sure it will all work it.
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Old 09-25-2001, 03:28 PM   #20
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CTF goooooooood! no CTF baaaaaaaaad!


NOTE: This user posted a link to an image file from his floppy drive in his signature (causing all of our floppy drives to buzz when threads he posts in are loaded). Needless to say, he'll need to make sure his signatures do not do this in the future!
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Old 09-25-2001, 03:38 PM   #21
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Lions, and tigers, and new team-based multiplayer, oh my!

If the inclusion of fresh, fun team-based multiplayer modes (assault, escort, non-flag retrieval, etc) is the "death of JO" than I'd rather see it die than ever become your love-child.

Quote:
Refer to first paragraph. We can't take away from the hardcore modes and gameplay, just to satisfy role-players.
Teehee, I'm a roleplayer now. *Looks on shelf* Number of pure roleplaying titles = 0.

What we are talking about here is nothing more than some decent believability and immersiveness in multiplayer which supports the fun Star Wars experience.

Unless CTF goes heavily under the knife for JO it will be again lacking in this department. Sure, it is plausible that you are running around playing some intergalactic SW capture the flag competition game in CTF. However, when you are left to imagine for yourself just what the heck you are doing in that mode of play, that is weak. You're right, JK CTF isn't like the CTF of many other games; it has the enormous strength of the one of the most popular science fiction sagas in the world to draw on, but wastes it. Good fps gameplay and strong Star Wars elements are a match made in heaven. It is not one at the expense of the other as you seem to accuse us of implying, but rather the perfect synthesis of both that we seek. This combination is why many people, more than than just a few thousand, picked up Jedi Knight to begin with. The good news is, it can be further improved.

There are ways you can you can partake in similar defend/retrieve gameplay elements while better capturing the Star Wars feel and experience, aside from just running after flags. That is what people are mainly saying.

I urge Raven to look beyond the hackneyed CTF theme and give us something that smacks more heavily of Star Wars fun. Not just through the weapons we use during the game but something more adherent in the game play itself.
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Old 09-25-2001, 03:43 PM   #22
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Well, i've noticed that my expectations for games have certainly risen a lot. Barely any games seem to impress or wow me these days. Which is unfortunate in a way. MY standards are just too high (its the same with women). The last game that made me step back and say "NOW THAT WAS PURE GENIUS!" was half-life.

As for multi-player modes in JKO. GIMME CO-OP!.
Or a well done team game like counter strike. CTF is.....ummm...well i suppose it can be fun. But I would rather a better goal in a multiplayer game. Maybe you could have a different form of co-op. 2 teams. One team has to escort a VIP if you will ( ) to an escape zone or a Shuttle of some sort? Obi-wan was gonna have something like that. The other team has to prevent the VIP escaping. Could be mad in JKO!

I would much rather goal oriented multi player modes, than the standard death match.


No way, man. No way, man! Get yourself another patsy, man. No way am I wearing a freakin' wire!
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Old 09-25-2001, 08:11 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Krayt Tion:
<STRONG>
Teehee, I'm a roleplayer now. *Looks on shelf* Number of pure roleplaying titles = 0.

What we are talking about here is nothing more than some decent believability and immersiveness in multiplayer which supports the fun Star Wars experience.
</STRONG>

UGH!!! Just because you personally can't see what use or place CTF would have in the Star Wars world would have doesn't mean it doesn't have it's place. What place in our world does JK2 have? Does it serve some invaluable purpose that noone could live without? NO. I think we should do away with it. If you didn't own a computer would you be able to go on living? YES. I think we need to smach that thing.

As for Reactor calling ppl roleplayers, what he means is that you're taking the "Star Wars Universe" waaaaaaaaay too seriously. You wanna be a "JEDI KNIGHT!" swinging your saber and force jumping over things. You don't want any part of anything non-jedi, like CTF, therefore kick it in the balls and throw it off a cliff, it's worthless. You know they can make CTF to appease the many many ppl who do want it and instead of bitching that it "doesn't belong" you can just NOT PLAY IT, simple, no?

[Hah edits because I don't understand my own points.....]

[ September 25, 2001: Message edited by: NDS_FogOgg ]


NOTE: This user posted a link to an image file from his floppy drive in his signature (causing all of our floppy drives to buzz when threads he posts in are loaded). Needless to say, he'll need to make sure his signatures do not do this in the future!
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Old 09-25-2001, 09:48 PM   #24
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I'm not going to respond to any of those statements, many of those questions will be answered in the other CTF thread already posted. I do want to talk about a few things other than that.

Do you guys share one brain? You seem to know exactly what other means with certain statements.

You might think I'm singling you two out in order to bash CTF, but let me assure you there is no hidden, pressed agenda here to diss it. No, it simply just came up and several people actually felt like discussing at this time where they might not have before.

Question- do you think what we say here about the development of the game is carved in stone and handed down on tablets to Raven with orders to implement, less they be struck down by powerful bursts of fan-nerd lightning? I ask this because I sense a desperation on more than one account here to convince someone, anyone lurking of the worthyness of CTF.

The reality is, some people would just prefer to play something else when it comes down to it- just as you would enjoy CTF over something else. I don't think this is likely to change, and I don't think any debates here are likely to dramatically swing anyone of developmental power either way.

We all want our interests to be well respresented. I would just like to remind everyone (including myself ) that we can be well respresented on these forums without creating a big fuss and throwing everything but the kitchen sink at people who just have different tastes.

If this all to convince Raven of things they don't even have to listen to in the first place, then it is all for naught, and getting kind of pointless. I guess what I'm trying to say is, Chill out. I'm also going to be making an effort to in the future.

[ September 25, 2001: Message edited by: Krayt Tion ]
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Old 09-25-2001, 11:14 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by ReAcToR:
Why is CTF in the SW universe weird? Are you saying that it's difficult to justify it with the SW storyline? If so, I would use Pod/Swoop Racing as examples of how CTF fits into the universe. It's simply a competition/game within the universe.
I never really looked at it that way before. Interesting point. But if that were the case, it might be nice to have an in-game audience to watch it, with hover-cams flying around, and maybe someone announcing things as they happen - similar to the Pod race in TPM. Just to give it that game-in-a-game feel.

Quote:
If by standard, you mean the mediocre CTF that we find in games like EF and Q3, then I would have to agree, although Q3 CCTF is great. If you mean that CTF in general doesn't fit in, I would urge you to read the above. I simply don't understand why people would discount CTF so quickly. Am I missing something or misunderstanding?
By standard I mean a straightforward by-the-numbers CTF that introduces nothing new into the mix.

I think that a Star Wars CTF should add a great deal more from that universe into the mix, in addition to the weapon-types and Force powers. I never meant that CTF didn't fit in at all - only that I get tired of seeing the basic premise hardly ever changing in the majority of other games.

Why does it have to be a flag anyway? Why not something else? Like a secret weapon, enemy plans, a Jedi Holocron, etc. Why not have three or four to be captured, rather than just one? Just to make it even more challenging?

Why do the bases have to be so close together most of the time? Why not distance them, and introduce some drivable vehicles like land-speeders with mounted guns, to patrol your perimeter, or get you within striking distance of the enemy base?

How about some puzzle elements, like slicing to open a code-locked door? Why not allow you some setup time to place mines, heavy guns, forcefields etc., where you want them? Also, a lot of CTF bases are usually simply replicas of each other. Why? Why can't you have two totally different bases (like a large ship and a fortress) to make it more challenging?

These are just some ideas for breaking the mould, and possibly making CTF a better game.

I don't think anyone here is trying to kill off JO before it's release.

Quote:
CTF is far more complex than DM, even with class-based DM. I just can't fathom why people wouldn't want it included. There are hundreds of people that are looking forward to JO simply because of the CTF.
I'm sure you're right. I too would look forward to CTF if it could introduce something to improve/enhance the gameplay. Improving choices like having partly-configurable bases (that are not replicas) could change things enough to make you at least stop and think before entering you're enemy's base - rather than simply having to remember it's a carbon copy of your own base.

I just hope some real innovation is possible for CTF within the time-frame they've allowed themselves. It could serve to elevate JK2's MP popularity if it can offer something new.
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Old 09-25-2001, 11:30 PM   #26
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JK CTF wasn't bad at all. But I liked how Lucasarts switched to KFY for MOTS. It was refreshing, something not done before. That's what I'm hoping for in JK2. Something unique.

Besides, we know if they don't include CTF, someone will most likely make a mod.
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Old 09-26-2001, 05:14 AM   #27
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Well, technically it had been done before. LEC's Outlaws featured it first (and it's no accident that the MotS team included many Outlaws team members who thought the idea was good enough to bring along, and I'm glad they did!). In Outlaws it was called "KFC."

A Quake2 mod team copied the idea with "Catch the Chicken" some time later.

KFY is a variation on the age old game of "tag." Of course KFY was unique in the way that it affected your use of force, but that's about it. I would have liked to see CTF in MotS, and thankfully our buddy Hedge did it in a mod, but I bet you if MotS had had CTF out of the box, we'd actually have more people playing it.. ; p

Btw, I now <a href="http://www.public.iastate.edu/~kurgan/e3jk2.jpg">see the problem</a> of why people are confused over the status of multiplayer modes for JK2. There are two pages, showing different information. The E3 Page (which I would argue is less current, since it's showing announced features for E3) and the official product page. See the "Capture the Flag" discussion elsewhere in this forum.

Sorry for any confusion!

Kurgan

[ September 26, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]
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