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Old 08-19-2001, 10:10 PM   #1
Vader's Apprentice
 
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Arrow Damage Signs + Cutting through walls

I raised this topic, because I frequently noticed that in jk and MotS that if you misfired a shot and it hit a wall there were no signs that a weapon shot had ever been there unlike in The Phantom Meanace if you mis-fired a shot a black, burnt mark would show up and with a lightsaber there would be black lines showing cuts in the walls. My point is that jk or MotS never showed any of these signs - Raven should make the lightsaber able to cut through the walls and blast-doors and it wouldnt matter for solid walls because it would take you 20 years to get to the other side as the wall would be so thick! as for blast-doors like in te first level of MotS your going to probably have to shut them so why not make the lightsaber do what jk/MotS couldn't - a cutting machine like in the movies. As for guns - at least show massive dents for a concussion rifle an small black dents for perhaps a stormtrooper rifle. Hey your gonna' pay money hoping to have some improvement?

Anyway what do you think about the topic?
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Old 08-19-2001, 10:18 PM   #2
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after playing red faction, I want lots more deformable terrain..
lots and lots
and in every game
every type of game..
I want it in rts games
I want it in flight sims
I want it in tetris!
damn it
everthing should be deformable!!!
/me runs off to make holes..


actually just the red marks would do me, maybe some doors that if you put the sabre in the right place opens it..
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Old 08-19-2001, 10:20 PM   #3
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I think you should do a little backgorund research.

If you have read any of the previews or seen the E3 video you would see that scorchmarks, good ones at that are left in the wall.

I am not sure we will be able to do feats like cutting through doors like TPM, but it WILL be implemented to some extent I'm sure.

Raven have said they want a greater level of interactivity with regards to the Saber so I think your worries are unfounded.

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Old 08-19-2001, 10:35 PM   #4
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Generally speaking, we are not at the point yet where in-game technology or more importantly the average consumer's PC is powerful enough for the lightsaber to manipulate the game environment how it really should (based on its observed movie capabilities).

One of the games these days with a more advanced 3D environment interaction is Red Faction, as has been mentioned. Thanks to its most touted feature, Geo-Mod technology, the player can blast walls, floors, ceilings, and more almost all over the levels, not just in scripted portions of the level that need to be destroyed in order to advance.

Even Geo-Mod pales in comparison to what would be required to let a lightsaber to realistically manipulate its environment like we know it to be capable of doing. For this to happen there wouldn't just be chunks of a wall that explode into bits or pieces of a ceiling that fall down on lightsaber contact. For true environment manipulation with the lightsaber you are dealing with what is essentially a pretty exquisite carving tool. The actions of the saber would have to be very specifically represented. How specific? Think secondary fire on the Pulse Gun from UT, but slower, and imagine the wall doesn't just show carbon scoring but shows where penetration is actually achieved and displayed properly.

I would guess that the levels themselves would have limitations that prevent the kind of lightsaber environmental manipulation. You cannot esentially carve out a little cave or West Wing in a level that doesn't have one already- or doesn't have the space for one. Quake 3-based levels (as well as many others) essentially exist entirely in a hollowed-out big box. You cannot penetrate the final walling of this box and expose the rest of the level to 'The Void' surrounding it. Eventually if you kept carving into a wall you could go no further. You can also build levels in some editors from a 'Block of Clay' standpoint instead of an 'Empty Box' standpoint. Perhaps someone can design something the enables the lightsaber to do some in-game editing I wonder how exactly they enable you to do what you can do in Red Faction, but whatever they're doing it is with an engine we won't be using.

Unfortunately I see little point in theorizing how we might make the lightsaber into the ultimate environment manipulater for JK 2. Maybe for JK 3 when it will be feasible. One limitation is already in place: there will be carbon scoring in JK 2 as has been mentioned, this is the Scorch Marks the saber leaves that will eventually disappear. This most likely means we will not be seeing the saber stab into walls and other things like a pen through Jello this time around, no matter what.

We can think of some ways that the saber might interact with pre-arranged portions of the environment that are designated to be manipulable, however. In JK we of course had things of such nature, like grates.

To begin with, I would like to see an increased number of things you can slash or stab. Everyday objects, parts of structures, things in nature. And include these things at more inteverals, in places that aren't just for secrets or when you need to advance in the level!

Also, since Q3 definitely allows some kind of carbon scoring, there isn't any reason why our blasters and explosives shouldn't leave some nice burn marks as well as our saber. That we should expect.

[ August 19, 2001: Message edited by: Krayt Tion ]
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Old 08-20-2001, 08:05 AM   #5
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im going to enjoy writing my name on the wall and drawing smilies


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Old 08-20-2001, 01:43 PM   #6
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That's fun to do in Elite Force already.



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Old 08-21-2001, 03:16 AM   #7
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Yeah, I love doing that...it's the best with a phaser or even an arc welder...this wall scoring thing isn't that new. Elite force had weapons fire first leave white, then fade to yellow, to red, then quickly to black, and eventually fade away...i doubt that this will be different, although I'm looking forward to the better quake 3 engine!
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Old 08-21-2001, 01:15 PM   #8
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True, the burn marks are nothing really new. Half-Life had 'em back in '98. Probably other FPS games before then too. But the Jedi Outcast footage showed some pretty nice saber wall scoring.

Geomod is a lot of fun in Red Faction. Adds an additional element to gameplay: the structures are permeable. Blast your way through walls to get to the target. Gotta love it. Something many gamers have been wanting for a long time.

While I know the map structure won't support it, it would be Über-cool to have destructable geometry environments in Jedi Outcast. Guess we'll have to wait for Jedi Knight 3.

Meanwhile, q3 tech will provide plenty of 'interactivity' with the game environment in Jedi Outcast.


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Old 08-28-2001, 07:42 AM   #9
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Fair Enough


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Old 08-30-2001, 08:15 PM   #10
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Definately. JK and MotS were loaded with graphical mistakes. The new burning metal helps, but if you look at the big blaster fights it the movies you notice a lot of smoke. They should try adding thin transparent clouds of smoke in some spot and then have all the burn marks.

We also saw in the E3 interview that after a while the saber scorch marks go away. I think they should just become black, like slashes in the walls.
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Old 08-30-2001, 08:36 PM   #11
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Well, if you think this whole thing through realistically, you just can't cut through everything in a level although I like leaving burn marks behind me and destroying walls etc. Lets imagine that there is eight pillars in a medium sized building, where you are dueling againts your opponent, and they are all supporting the roof. Guess what? If you cut them all down, that roof will collaps. Ofcourse this would add a little tension to your duel, when both of you wait, when it will come down and which one of you guys will get out there alive before it does that...

[ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: Lord_FinnSon ]


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Old 08-30-2001, 08:40 PM   #12
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Wouldnt be good for puzzles. Your in a maze in a cave and just cut a straight path


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Old 08-30-2001, 08:48 PM   #13
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Well, I read from one of those previews that in some point during the game(or was it just in a demo) you have to slash down part of the wall, so that it will make a bridge for you or something like that... I think that can be considered a some sort of puzzle, although quite easy.

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Old 09-01-2001, 08:08 AM   #14
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As long as I can write my name on the walls, I'll be happy...
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Old 09-01-2001, 02:24 PM   #15
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I think Krayt's right... totally deformable terrain, to the point where the saber could cut through anything and everything would not simply make designing levels harder, it would necessitate a completely new approach to level design. Personally, I think it would spoil the fun... after all we only ever see Jedi in the films cutting through obstructions as a last resort, they don't just go hacking everything up which comes into their path.

Personally I'll be happy with scorch marks on the walls and a few grates to hack up.


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Old 09-01-2001, 03:31 PM   #16
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Agreed,

But I would like it to work slightly differntly to JK where you press fire on the saber and voila your grate has been cut.

I think when you go up to the grate and press fire you should do a little animation or something that takes a little time. I'm not asking for Uber realistic saber cutting

Like in MP and someone is chasing you, I dont find it very appealing just being able to slash the grate, it will make people stay and fight a bit more..

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Old 09-01-2001, 06:36 PM   #17
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If you read this preview, you will know that also Raven wants us to use the lightsaber for other purposes than just killing...

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Old 09-05-2001, 04:13 PM   #18
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Yeah, wall schorhes are definitely going to be part of JKII. It would be cool to see if the saber can melt snow, because there is a level (I think its gonna be the demo) where there is snow. The lightsaber is definitely going to be used for more than killing, and one of the previews said to bve careful where you yse it, because if you are standing with the lightsaber on, and a civilian walks into the blade, it will kill him. I hope that they also add some of the good Force powers from JK and MotS. I also heard there is going to be a buddy system, where you can get an NPD to aid you on your quests...
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Old 09-05-2001, 04:14 PM   #19
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Yeah, wall schorhes are definitely going to be part of JKII. It would be cool to see if the saber can melt snow, because there is a level (I think its gonna be the demo) where there is snow. The lightsaber is definitely going to be used for more than killing, and one of the previews said to bve careful where you yse it, because if you are standing with the lightsaber on, and a civilian walks into the blade, it will kill him. I hope that they also add some of the good Force powers from JK and MotS. I also heard there is going to be a buddy system, where you can get an NPD to aid you on your quests...
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Old 10-27-2001, 05:19 PM   #20
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Well artoo, i think wall scorching would be great. how about a force power where he puts his lightsaber into the lock to break the door? who agrees?
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Old 10-27-2001, 07:10 PM   #21
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Some lightsaber-scene interaction will occur - in the video you can download it shows you throwing the lightsaber at a large grate, which falls down to make a bridge. I reckon some weapon (especially lightsaber) interaction would be possible. If you think about the solid walls, in the movies they're made from an extremely tough metal that doesn't exist on earth. In TPM, Qui Gon took ages trying to break through the door when the blast doors were shut. Therefore, wall scorching is all that could occur when the lightsaber came in contact - unless you spent hours trying to carve an alcove (which is very unlikely). But Geomod technology would be sufficient for weaker materials that the lightsaber and some other weapons could break and interact more easily with. Therefore, some ascpects could be included to JK2.
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Old 10-27-2001, 08:23 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by GonkH8er:
<STRONG>im going to enjoy writing my name on the wall and drawing smilies </STRONG>
... if they disappear as quick as they did in Elite Force then you wont even have time to draw your own initials,lol


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Old 10-27-2001, 11:14 PM   #23
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The original AvP had a good system.. you could easily write your name on walls.

It would be kind of cool to have it so that others could see what you wrote too (if they had their decals turned on of course) like you could leave messages for your buddies or do saber art. ; )

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Old 10-27-2001, 11:50 PM   #24
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Why, may I ask, did we pull this topic up from its grave?


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Old 10-28-2001, 12:25 AM   #25
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so as not to creat new topics about old one... maybe

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Old 10-28-2001, 01:44 AM   #26
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Yep, we encourage people to do a Search before they post a new topic. They are more than welcome to bring an old topic to the top if they have something to contribute (rather than make a new thread).

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Old 10-28-2001, 07:01 AM   #27
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w00t! thread revival!


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Old 10-28-2001, 08:49 AM   #28
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I think its a good idea to revive old threads. Its also good fun reading them to see how little information we knew then..actually we dont know that much more now


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Old 10-28-2001, 09:38 AM   #29
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Which brings us back to that other topic...20 days without an update...!!!


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