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09-27-2001, 03:48 PM   #3
Krayt Tion
Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:
 Furthermore, I think that there is a definite false-ring to combat where you have to 'think to execute' what I call a DIRECTED action as opposed to sublimating it to INSTINCT (subconscious). Any time you have to envision what you are going to do as different from what you are doing now, you are vulnerable to the man-in-ambush or multi-threat effect which kills you between thought and action. IMO, this is why we are stuck using totally bogus _Personal Shielding_ for instance. The Dune universe has this technology. The Star Wars one **Does Not**.
In your etiology here, I don't think it is applicable to criticize this feature from a purely Jedi or universal cannon perspective. There were more factors involved in the inclusion of such a feature that should prevent you from judging it based on the rules you find appropriate for the universe alone. You'll need to partially throw aside the prevailing desire to see the game develop based on a 'better force' analysis to recognize that even the best ideas and their intentions can play second fiddle to the mighty Power of Marketing, among other things.

When million dollar game budgets are on the line the true artists, which are the developers, are often hampered by the necessary placation of those emptying the Fat Pockets. Dark Forces, where this personal shield technology first debuyed in a Star Wars video game, needed to seperate itself from or at least stay on par with the likes of DooM and DooM II. DooM had health points and armor that would lengthen your life and take some of the sting off your more vital statistic. It makes sense to me that someone at LucasArts probably decided they had to at least match in features the most popular FPS out there at the time. Armor had already been done. If they were more concerned with adhering to movie cannon (which I'll get to in a later post along with some EU comments) they might have just stuck with a StarWars-ish variant of wearable armor for our mercenary. What seems more likely is that just 'doing armor' did not distinguish itself enough from the other FPSes. I can see this line of thought coming into fruition: Star Wars has shields---> let's personalize them and make them our 'Star Wars armor' for our hero character---> that will really stand out as something unique. Maybe I'm delusional, but I can see the beady little eyes of Fat Pockets himself light up with glee as he approves this with a big thumbs up.

In the original Dark Forces Kyle was for all intents and purposes just a force-less mercenary; DF devs have been quoted saying how they wanted to do more of a Jedi Knight type of game the first time around (mainly with Force and Lightsabers), but they weren't confident enough that the technology could do it justice. When they finally got to do their Jedi game years later they included personal shielding as a throwback to the original Dark Forces. Maybe they shouldn't have done this (after considering how the force could be made to serve similar purposes, better than what they eventually did with protection), but they needed to establish some continuality between the original DF might and JK, especially since they were using the same hero character, Kataran. The needed the transition from mercenary to Jedi, or perhaps more accurately the birth of a Jedi from a mercenary, to be the least disjointed as possible. I would fathom that the personal shields were something of a sacrifice in that department.

Why do you see so many sequels of computers games on the market today? Is it for developers to continue exploring the plethora of ideas associated with the original games and their concepts? Perhaps. But not so much as it is the Safe and Easy Beat for the Big Wigs to put their money up for a sequel to an already successful game. Build on it, sure, but you'd better be damn sure to keep your core audience. As much as Pre-TPM LucasArts was regarded as a gaming pioneer, I doubt they were much different in this regard when JK rolled around. Even now, witness the title for the third game in the Dark Forces series, Jedi Outcast: Jedi Knight 2. Not Dark Forces 3, mind you, but the sequel to the game that more up and coming buyers will recognize.

Long story short, I don't necessarily dislike your concepts that lend themselves to the elimination of the personal shield, I just don't think your gave a proper assessment of the circumstances which lead to its implementation.

I have other thoughts on your post, but if I don't stop surfing and start working, someone is going to have my ass. I'll get back to you later.
 09-27-2001, 04:40 PM #4 Darth Lunatic   Join Date: May 2001 Location: Alpha Quadrant Posts: 167 Oooo he card read good! No way, man. No way, man! Get yourself another patsy, man. No way am I wearing a freakin' wire! you may: quote & reply,
 09-27-2001, 05:01 PM #5 Kurt Plummer   Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 61 Hannibal, Thanks for struggling thru...:-) Krayt, I appreciate your point of view though I find it somewhat hard to envision the Big Wig having much direct input (or care) at any given 'similarity smells like succe' personal level. How many sitting board chairman, multi-gazillionaires play Jedi Knight I wonder?:) Instead, I think it was much less grandiose with the designers themselves going with a new icon for a similar function what was so much a 'well known'. Absent a motive to change this well known has now become a Very Bad Habit. In the absence of true wealth-building schemes such as even Ultima and similar 'Avatar' driven early elevated consciousness plot systems allowed, in SW one is given the incentive to grub like a hog after acorns on the basis of Utilitarian Materialistism or what I call: 'The Need Fer Greed'. Never mind that it is a cover for a gain based profit:risk marginalization system that is in NO WAY 'Jedi Like' (my primary disgust). Or that it doesn't follow the laws of the SW universe that we know (Han Solo once unshipped shielding from the Millenium Falcon once to protect the static entrance to Xim's treasure bunker and it took him _hours_ to move the weight and tune the field overlaps, even with antigrav). No. None of these are 'important'. The REAL problem with the idea of shields-over-brains is the question: "Where's the dang Easter Bunny?" Where's the phunny wittle wabbit that leaves behind these presumeably valuable little Easter Eggs out in the middle of nowhere with no relative connection to even a local 'mechanically inclined' environment? i.e. they are SHIELD BELTS that have no use on a farm or in civillian ship hangar or even outside the storeage armory of a military base. Which leads to the next 'Bothersome Question' if shield belts are born of two mature, caring, adult, shield belt parents in the deep wilds of OBF, why aren't they being herded for domestication by Storm Troopers? Snicker, OHHHHH MYYYYYY!!! Why I may need /years/ of therapy! This is what nearly ruins the immersion for me and this is a shame because it tosses out some pretty serious/fun/realistic psychology-of-psychics 'social evolutioning' exploration as well. As for your character classification. _I'm all for it_. It is one theme of other adult adventure-entertainment games that makes total sense to me. Not everyone is born a fighter pilot but darn near everyone can shoot an M-16 and they get a heck of a lot more rounds to cap off every year of career. So too, by personal choice or random character generation, why not grant the ability to become 'Ye Compleat Warrior', groaning under a donkey's worth of firepower, as opposed to a sleak, sexy, agile, dressed in fashion-stunning black (but oh so pitifully light-armed) 'Jedi Knight'. A cleric-*** -diplomat-bodyguard-spy with only his pure heart, faith in The Force, and trusty-rusty light sabre (plus maybe a small pistol or few grenades) to save him from all manner of Evil Thangs. All of which he will meet nose-to-fang or blade-to-muzzle. Without a two ton shield generator strapped to his behind. Kurt Plummer you may: quote & reply,
09-27-2001, 07:57 PM   #7
wardz

Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 926

Quote:
 If you want to make the game more difficult you don't have to put the Item Union on strike
hahaha. A nice analogy.

Thats a good point K-Ti. I would personally prefer it if it at least looked like the stormies used some of the shields.

Also, I have noticed that on many games in regards to difficulty settings they just swamp the place with goodies instead of being a little more creative in their approach.

Perhaps Raven can buck the trend?

wardz

Welcome to JKII.Net.

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 09-27-2001, 08:24 PM #8 Alan   Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Behind you Posts: 34 Hey Kurt, could you please be more in-depth in yor posts? Fear Me you may: quote & reply,
 09-27-2001, 11:19 PM #9 Denise   Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Washington state, USA Posts: 231 I offer nothing so lengthy (edit: okay, it did turn out pretty long, my apologies ) or so eloquent as my two associates here, and do heartily agree with them on the inherent cheesiness of Jedi shielding and haphazard item placement. However, I would like to point out that there is indeed a parallel for "personal shielding" in Star Wars: the droidekas ("destroyer droids") of Episode One. These droids are insectile-looking devices, not terribly bulky. Further, they are armed and transformable, meaning that at least some of their internal space must house the transformation equipment and {ammunition/power generators, take your pick} for the blasters. Their system is also more efficient or perhaps merely stronger than Kyle's; they inspired our two heroes to take flight rather than simply deflecting the droids' bolts back at them until their shields were worn out. This suggests that the shields are either unphased by antipersonnel weaponry or would have lasted for considerably longer than Kyle's are capable of under such a barrage. If it is indeed a more powerful system, it could well be even bulkier than what we've seen Kyle using. Also, as the droidekas' maneuverability (and rapid deceleration) in the "rolling ball" mode partially indicates, they don't seem to be particularly weighty. A human might well be able to carry a backpack-mounted outgrowth of the system if indeed it cannot be miniaturized to the "shield belt" level. As to why the technology was demonstrably absent later in the timeline, well, we know that there is a rather devastating series of wars coming up. Perhaps the technology for the small-scale projectors was simply lost in the fighting. More plausibly, the equipment could require rare components (be they fuel, focusing crystals, whatever technobabble you choose to insert). The sources for such components could well have been exhausted by the Clone Wars, making their appearance (in operating condition) rare by the time of A New Hope. Is personal shielding out of character for the Jedi we've seen thus far? Absolutely. Has the item placement in the two prior games been more than a little implausible? To be certain. Is the technological capability for personal shielding completely absent from the Star Wars universe? Presumably not. [ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Denise ] you may: quote & reply,
 09-28-2001, 01:50 AM #11 digl Guest   Posts: n/a OMG! Kurgan, your force long posting supremacy is in danger! [ September 28, 2001: Message edited by: digl ] you may: quote & reply,
 09-30-2001, 09:42 PM #12 Lord_FinnSon   Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Finland Posts: 166 I wonder if Raven have considered reducing down the number of the Force keys originally used in JK/MotS. I Remember that when LucasArts was still developing Obi-Wan for PC they said it might have only one Force key that could be used in combination with others: when you jump, for example, and use Force key at the same time, Kyle(in this case) makes Force jump or while he is running, Force key speeds him up etc. I guess this would make using the Force much more intuitive in the heat of battle... [ September 30, 2001: Message edited by: Lord_FinnSon ] Remember, the Force will be with you... always! you may: quote & reply,
 09-30-2001, 10:10 PM #13 Denise   Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Washington state, USA Posts: 231 Sounds more prone to mistakes, to me. What if, while activating another power in a room with a low ceiling, the situation requires you to jump? Ouch. you may: quote & reply,
 10-20-2001, 01:31 PM #14 C Shutt Guest   Posts: n/a Was that supposed to be a parody of some kind? If not, it's the geekiest goddamn thing I've ever read. [ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: C Shutt ] you may: quote & reply,
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