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Old 06-07-2001, 07:17 AM   #1
Jedi_Killer
 
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Lightbulb Someone explain to me what the fuss about the graphics is about?

First off I want to explain something to everyone here who doesn't know who I am--I am a long time JK fan and I was one of the early members on the JK.net message boards back when it had less members than this board has now. I like Jedi Knight. I like Star Wars. Quite a bit actually, but that's nothing terribly unique in this crowd.

Anyhow, I'm kind of tired of seeing everyone ooohing and ahhing over the JK images. Most of them look like they have been touched up in photoshop--lense flares and such that look decidedly un-Q3 engineish to me. Also there is now a thread going off on how wonderful the 3000 poly Kyle model is--Now it looks okay, but Half-Life for the PS2 has models using more polys than that and they look fantastic. The Q3 Engine is definitly capable of running more--and if JK is any indication we are going to have Kyle onscreen for so much time that it makes sense to have him in extra-high resolution. This is a game that is going to come out in a time when the average gamer is going to have at least an 800mhz machine with a GeForce 1 era video card. Let the graphical candy commence. Especially when we know that Doom 3 will come out and if they don't want JK:O to be completly overshadowed on store shelves it needs to look very pretty in screenshots.

And as for the environments--its your basic base look. Nothing much more complex than what JK had or what has been released by the community. But the screenshots simply can't compare to the stuff that has been under construction for a while--Wolfenstein and Medal of Honor come to mind.

Raven has a really talented team and I'm sure they will make a great game. But the stuff that they showed after working on the game for a month is impressive for a month's work, but it isn't all that great right now when you look at some of the other stuff that's soon to be available.

Anyhow I guess the real reason that I'm ranting is that I think everyone is just oohing and ahhing since its the SW license. LEC used to make very good games that happened to use the license. Then they started pushing out a lot of really bad games that sold well. Why spend the time to make a good game if a bad, cheap to produce game sells just as well?
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Old 06-07-2001, 07:28 AM   #2
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To tell you the truth, I liked the graphics. But I do agree that it could be alittle better. Although I am happy just the way it is.
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Old 06-07-2001, 08:08 AM   #3
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Agreed.

It's important to remember how early JKII is in dev. Those other games look a lot better since they've been worked on for *much* longer. Things will shape up, I'm sure.
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Old 06-07-2001, 08:18 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Killer:
<STRONG>Anyhow, I'm kind of tired of seeing everyone ooohing and ahhing over the JK images. Most of them look like they have been touched up in photoshop--lense flares and such that look decidedly un-Q3 engineish to me.</STRONG>
i doubt they would sink as low to 'touch up' these images in photoshop. and just remember that this isnt the standard quake 3 engine. it HAS been heavily modified. If you dont like the ooohing and ahhhhing, dont participate, or dont read those posts.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Killer:
<STRONG>Also there is now a thread going off on how wonderful the 3000 poly Kyle model is--Now it looks okay, but Half-Life for the PS2 has models using more polys than that and they look fantastic.</STRONG>
You're probably referring to my post with the picture i put in with the comparison........ 'comparison'. i was merely comparing how far we've come since jk, i wasnt going 'ooooh look at how pretty he looks'. i actually think they should fix up some stuff with him, like his arm going through his chest. but as we ALL KNOW, this is early development. theyve given us a small preview of what theyve been doing.

look what's happened with other games... there have been drastic changes made in the last few months of development. tribes 2 had the vehicles TOTALLY redesigned. force commander went from 2d to 3d. the screenshots from 3 months after the game has started being produced are not an accurate description of what the game will be. they may have whipped that kyle model up in 2 nights. we dont know..... but for something thats this new, i'd say theyve doing pretty well.


Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Killer:
<STRONG>This is a game that is going to come out in a time when the average gamer is going to have at least an 800mhz machine with a GeForce 1 era video card. Let the graphical candy commence. Especially when we know that Doom 3 will come out and if they don't want JK:O to be completly overshadowed on store shelves it needs to look very pretty in screenshots.</STRONG>
I'd say that the graphics we see in the screenshots so far are on par with tribes 2, and that takes a beast of a machine to run well..... and whats to say that jko wont overshadow doom3? with some good marketing and some more spiffy screenshots, they could make this game be in the anticipation ranks up there with tf2 doom3. sure, doom3 may look better, but graphics arent always what draws people to a game. sure, people like mindless killing, but they also like a plot and a story they can relate to and star wars provides that for a lot of people. weaving a good looking game into a universe like star wars proves very effective. look back to jk. compare jk's graphics to something else that looked better of that era. i'd say that jediknight sold VERY well for how 'overshadowed' the graphics looked.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Killer:
<STRONG>And as for the environments--its your basic base look. Nothing much more complex than what JK had or what has been released by the community. But the screenshots simply can't compare to the stuff that has been under construction for a while--Wolfenstein and Medal of Honor come to mind.</STRONG>
As far as i know, we havent seen many environment shots, unless im mistaken and you've seen something we havent... saying they look very basic base looking is a bit of an off comment. its star wars. its an imperial base. you cant expect alien environments with twisting turning creepers and bump mapping and incredible lighting in the time space theyve been working on it. for fecks sake, theyve showed us a few screenshots and a 15 second movie! they went to all this trouble of putting out this stuff so we could see, and theres people like you saying its nowhere near up to scratch with current technology. at least give it some constructive criticism, not just blurting out whats wrong with it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Killer:
<STRONG>Anyhow I guess the real reason that I'm ranting is that I think everyone is just oohing and ahhing since its the SW license. LEC used to make very good games that happened to use the license.</STRONG>
I'd tend to disagree... i think people are ooooohing and ahhhhing because we liked jediknight. it was a damn fine game, and im sure a lot of people here would agree. a sequel is something to look forward to. im sure a lot of people bought quake 2 becuase they liked quake, and a lot of people bought quake 3 coz they liked quake 2. and so it is with a lot of sequels. im sure that when they make the matrix game, people might buy it because its the matrix, but if they made a second matrix game, people would buy it because they liked the first matrix game.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Killer:
<STRONG>Then they started pushing out a lot of really bad games that sold well. Why spend the time to make a good game if a bad, cheap to produce game sells just as well?</STRONG>

its because those crap games DONT sell just as well. sure there may be a mad rush and lots of people will buy them at the start, but then the bad reviews come and word gets around that its a bad game. this stops a lot of potential buyers. whereas a good game wont get those bad reviews, so sales will continue fairly steadily.

these people liked jediknight. they are looking forward to jediknight 2. its looking to be a very nice game. GAMEPLAY matters.

a game with good gameplay and sub-standard graphics will sell better and live longer as a played game than a game with good graphics and boring or repetative gameplay. and jk had excellent gameplay. these people are just assuming jk2 will have the same, with better graphics. im sure a lot of people wont care too much if it doesnt look like doom 3.


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Old 06-07-2001, 08:22 AM   #5
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phew....... hows that for a hundredth post


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Old 06-07-2001, 08:51 AM   #6
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i would tend to agree, i think its waaaaaaaay to early to judge what JK2 will become based on a poor quality 15 second movie and a few screenshots. I would imagine at this early stage there isn't alot to show off yet, so we takes what we can gets.


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Old 06-07-2001, 10:10 AM   #7
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I don't about the rest of you, but as long as I can see the Storm Troopers and Dark Jedi scream as I either decapetate or disembowel them I don't care much about the graphics. Like GonkH8er said, gameplay matters, that is of course as long as you can see it, and I don't think that'll be a problem. So don't whine about the littlethat we've seen, instead have faith in Raven and LEC, they know we have big expectations, and they wanna fulfill them. Trust in the Force...


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Old 06-07-2001, 11:27 AM   #8
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Old 06-07-2001, 11:30 AM   #9
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hehehe i needed a break from my maths c


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Old 06-07-2001, 12:57 PM   #10
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FORCE LONG POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But.....you were right...
You can't judge a game for its graphics when it's 3-4 months in developement. Besides we are not "oohing" and "ahhing" because of the graphics but for a game we've been waiting for a long time now... And it seems to me that for so litle time in development it is doing fine...

Hey, I didn't know that FC turned to 3d!!!
Maybe I should check it out...

-EDIT-
Damn, I thought you were talking about SWGB...

[ June 07, 2001: Message edited by: Aragorn ]


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Old 06-07-2001, 05:21 PM   #11
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Graphics arnt the all important factor, but they do add some realism. JK textures were quite good....but other parts werent!


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Old 06-07-2001, 08:41 PM   #12
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There is a clear connection between how pretty a game is and how well it sells. Myst and Riven are still up on the top of the most sold PC games and all they are is a bunch of pretty pre-rendered screens tied together.

It's not a heavily modified Q3 engine. They had the game for a month before E3. You don't heavily modify an engine in a month. And the graphics are undoubtedly photoshop enhanced. For those of you who aren't that familiar with E3--most developers spend a month or so outside of the development of the game making sure they have a good E3 demo. Often that includes sections of the game that only exist for the show. Many promotional videos and shots have higher resolution characters than they do in the actual game and they are often enhanced to look even better. That's the reason that games like Daikatana can look like they are about to ship for 4 years.
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Old 06-07-2001, 08:46 PM   #13
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I'd rather play Super Mario for NES than pretty much all "high graphical" games that have come out in the last year.



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Old 06-07-2001, 08:52 PM   #14
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hahah Kwup Thats funny. I only play q3a now I used to be a Heavy DArkforces and jk1 fan. But it got old q3a doesnt to me Because there are so many possibilites with the code. Im sure jk2 will be the sameway.If the texures suk In the game when released make your own textures. Ps. Threw my supernintendo off a roof Years ago
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Old 06-08-2001, 12:52 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Killer:
<STRONG>There is a clear connection between how pretty a game is and how well it sells. Myst and Riven are still up on the top of the most sold PC games and all they are is a bunch of pretty pre-rendered screens tied together.</STRONG>
So a lot of people like interactive slide-shows. What does this have to do with Jedi Knight II, which is actually a proper game?

Quote:
<STRONG>It's not a heavily modified Q3 engine. They had the game for a month before E3. You don't heavily modify an engine in a month.</STRONG>
I hate to disagree with you...but I will

You see, they are going to be using the same tech on Jedi Knight II that they are using on Soldier of Fortune II. In a recent interview, a Raven spokesperson said that the engine they are working with is 35 per cent id's base engine (ie, Q3:TA), and 65 per cent their own stuff (GHOUL 2, ICARUS, LICH, ROAM, Dynamic Mission Generator etc. etc.). They've been working on those systems for some time - some of the tech was used for Soldier Of Fortune I. Now it's all been upgraded, improved...

So Jedi Knight II is based on a Heavily Modified Quake 3 engine. :P

Quote:
<STRONG>And the graphics are undoubtedly photoshop enhanced. For those of you who aren't that familiar with E3--most developers spend a month or so outside of the development of the game making sure they have a good E3 demo. Often that includes sections of the game that only exist for the show. Many promotional videos and shots have higher resolution characters than they do in the actual game and they are often enhanced to look even better. That's the reason that games like Daikatana can look like they are about to ship for 4 years.</STRONG>
I don't believe Photoshop or any other application has been used to enhance any of the pictures. Raven know their stuff, and they've always taken id's engines to the limit, graphically and in other ways.

And as for promo stuff using higher res models and what-have-you, I think any developer trying that trick these days won't last long. Gamers have higher expectations, and most developers now try and ensure that their final products match or exceed our expectations.

You're doing a great job, Raven. I look forward to playing what I know will be an excellent game.
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Old 06-08-2001, 01:35 AM   #16
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Stormhammer has a point. This certainly isn't the first Q3 game Raven has done. Elite Force was Q3 and I heard that there might have even been some Q3A code in there. SoFII appears to be based off of Q3A and that game has apparently been in development for many months prior to E3. It would make the most sense for Raven to use existing code as a base for JK.

Anyway, the game is so early in development. Heck, some guy from Raven made a post to some guy complaining about the saber effects saying that many things have been fixed either a) since just after the screenshots were released or b) even before the shots were released but maybe weren't approved so they showed older approved stuff.
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Old 06-08-2001, 02:11 AM   #17
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Another thing to point out is that everyone wants the game to run fast, load fast between levels, take up 2 megs on their hard drive...but then they also want high density light maps, huge textures, insanely huge detailed worlds, and ultra high poly count models. Plus they wanted the game to have shipped yesterday, cost two dollars and arrive in shiny shrink wrap.

What gives? I don't think it's bad to want cool things in the game and have it look nice, but I think people have to realise what the devs are up against. I used to want to get a job in the gaming industry, but it's this kind of mentality that makes me want to stop trying to find a gaming job and go work at the corner gas station selling hot dogs.
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Old 06-08-2001, 04:13 AM   #18
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Story and gameplay are the two most important aspects of gaming. Immersion follows closely. Graphics are necessary for immersion. Therefore graphics play a semi-important role.


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Old 06-08-2001, 04:32 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Killer:
<STRONG>It's not a heavily modified Q3 engine. They had the game for a month before E3. You don't heavily modify an engine in a month.</STRONG>
Actually, they've been using the Q3 engine for over 2 years.. they did EF for it... and Sof2 uses Q3... so I presume they've had time to modify it quite a bit.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Killer:
<STRONG>And the graphics are undoubtedly photoshop enhanced.</STRONG>
I read in a thread on another site that Kenn Hoekstra (from Raven) says that Raven has NEVER touched up a screenshot. I'm inclined to believe them since they could have easily fixed a few things like lightsaber trails and Kyle's arm coming through his shoulder.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Killer:
<STRONG>Many promotional videos and shots have higher resolution characters than they do in the actual game and they are often enhanced to look even better.</STRONG>
Considering that they only have a year, I would imagine they wouldn't waste their time making high-poly models they're not going to end up using. Maybe they'll have lower-poly models for less powerful machines, who knows.

Anyway, they should concentrate on gameplay, they've got the graphics more than good enough for me. JK, Half-Life, Tomb Raider and a lot of other games that have sold well and been well-recieved had sub-par graphics for their time, but the gameplay drew people in, that's most important.
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Old 06-08-2001, 06:33 AM   #20
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Sifl--all magazine promotional shots and stuff for print adds use the higher resolution models. They don't want it to look so game-y. It's pretty standard. By standard I mean that pretty much every company does it.

It's funny that you mentioned JK, Half-Life, and Tomb Raider as having sub-par graphics. All of them had above average graphics and were the best looking game at the respective times of their release.

They have been working on JK for a little over a month. Familiarity with the engine from the group that worked on Elite Force is nice and all, but due to copyright laws I'm sure they had to completly start over from scratch. I'm sure they'll port over ghoul and an updated scripting system that raven has showed in previous games, but you can't say they have been working on the engine for JK for 2 years.
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Old 06-08-2001, 09:17 AM   #21
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The don't have to start the codebase over again. They have a complete license of the Q3 engine. They would be crazy to rewrite simple things like game save code when they've already started it.
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Old 06-08-2001, 11:36 AM   #22
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...And we know for a fact that they've doubled the polygon count over the engine used in EF. That constitutes a "heavily modified" engine as far as I'm concerned.


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Old 06-08-2001, 12:34 PM   #23
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Actually, nitpicking, but doubling the polycount isn't an issue of the engine. It's simply they used more in characters/level design. The actually code is probably no different to handle that.
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Old 06-08-2001, 12:56 PM   #24
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We can say that immersion depends at least partly on graphical quality, but what about some of the old 8-bit games that many of us played when we were kids? The graphics were way crappier than even the worst looking thing two years ago, but we were probably able to really get into the game. Why should it be any different now?

Also, when I read books, they don't have little kiddie pictures on every page and I'm fully able to immerse myself in them assuming the story is well written and flows at a nice pace. Demanding that we absolutley have to have the best graphics in order to be able to immerse ourselves in the game is the same as saying we have no imagination. I doubt you'd want to be saying that.

Hey, I like flashy graphics as much as the next guy/girl/jedi/gonk, but it really only gets you so far. I say we make a fuss about gameplay and give the devs cool gameplay ideas without being impossibly demanding. I mean, as far as we know, maybe they read the message board and look at the requests and say, "oh yeah, we already thought of it. We'll just move it higher on the list of things to get in the game.."

Really though, we don't know what they have planned. I'm personally waiting until I see some more screenshots, movies, or have a chance to play a demo before I get too awfully worried.

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Old 06-08-2001, 01:00 PM   #25
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I think everyone should take a look at the screenshots of another Raven game a lot further in developement - Solidier Of Fortune 2' - which looks very accomplished. I should think that by the time Raven have finished with JK2, we will have gfx at least on par with SOF2 - probably better!

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Old 06-08-2001, 01:14 PM   #26
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Why did we fuss about the Jedi Outcast screenshots? Because we didn't have any other Star Wars PC FPS game to fuss about.


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Old 06-08-2001, 02:53 PM   #27
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Wilhuf, huh?

I agree with Joe. By the time that Jk2 will be out, the graphics may be better than tribes 2, then it's brother game in development by Raven, Soldier of Fortune II, and possibly D3. I'm not really worried that much about the graphics. Just as long as I can set them how I want them on my machine, I'll be fine. Whether it's all the way up, or all the way down (hopefully not), I'll still play it.

So Jedi Killer, get the point of what everyone has been saying (mostly everyone anyway), Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast has only been in development for a few months. We can't really judge the game yet. If you want to go back and find some shots of Tribes 2 at this level of development and compare them there, then do so.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi Killer
And as for the environments--its your basic base look. Nothing much more complex than what JK had or what has been released by the community. But the screenshots simply can't compare to the stuff that has been under construction for a while--Wolfenstein and Medal of Honor come to mind.
I just have to hit on this.

Do you know what we were seeing in the little 15 second movie and in the screenshots? A demo level made specifially for E3 2001. They probably made it in like 30 minutes, give or take a few. It wasn't designed to dazzle the eyes of the viewers, just to provide a place for Kyle to show off some of his Jedi skills after being in-active for a few years. He can still slay the stormies just fine as we saw from the movie in the demo level. They weren't really trying to show off the environment. But the background was pretty nice IMO.

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Old 06-08-2001, 05:26 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Killer:
<STRONG>Sifl--all magazine promotional shots and stuff for print adds use the higher resolution models. They don't want it to look so game-y. It's pretty standard. By standard I mean that pretty much every company does it.</STRONG>
These aren't print ads. And they're not using higher resolution models than are used in-game.

Quote:
<STRONG>It's funny that you mentioned JK, Half-Life, and Tomb Raider as having sub-par graphics. All of them had above average graphics and were the best looking game at the respective times of their release.</STRONG>
Certainly not! Quake3, Unreal Tournament and Heretic II all looked better than Half-Life. Quake (or was it Quake 2?) looked much better than Tomb Raider. Hexen II and Unreal looked much better than JK. But those were good games regardless of behind a bit behind on the graphics curve. That's my point.

Quote:
<STRONG>due to copyright laws I'm sure they had to completly start over from scratch.</STRONG>
Ah, no, they didn't.


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Old 06-08-2001, 05:59 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Archie:
<STRONG>Actually, nitpicking, but doubling the polycount isn't an issue of the engine. It's simply they used more in characters/level design. The actually code is probably no different to handle that.</STRONG>
My mistake. Bad phrasiology. What I meant to say was that they had doubled the polygon capacity of the Quake III engine. Quite what tweaks or changes this entails I couldn't tell you. Maybe Raven (if they're reading this) could tell us.


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Old 06-08-2001, 07:12 PM   #30
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yes immersion is important, but hell JK immersed me in its sp gameplay, as did doom2 and hexen....

all of them come no where near the graphical capabilities of the q3 team arena engine.

gameplay and story are what its all about, graphics is secondary... don't get me wrong i like games to look as good as possible but not at the expense of gameplay.


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Old 06-08-2001, 10:30 PM   #31
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Okay--when JK was released there was basically no other 3d FPS games yet. Quakeworld was the competition. JK allowed larger outdoor environments and had support for 3d acceleration out of the box. Quake 2 was released a few months later and it definitly overshadowed JK if you had a 3d card. Without one there isn't that much difference.
JK also slipped quite a bit in its release date--it could have been out even sooner but that would have required patching.

Tomb Raider was amazing technology. It provided lush 3d worlds on the playstation and its microscopic amounts of RAM. It was on the PC about a year or so before JK. Again, its on par with Quake 1 but not quite as nice as Jedi was.

Half-Life came out in November 98, Q3test wasn't even around for another few months. UT was much later too. Half-Life was also a monster of a game. It won best of E3 for two years in a row I believe, so the game was pretty well-known.

Okay about ownership of game development technology. It's going to depend on the developer and how experienced they are. I would imagine that Raven does pretty well, but I'm sure Activision owns at least part of the rights for SOF and EF. I doubt they would be all that willing to turn the technology over to their competitors (LEC) to use in a game they are publishing. Hence its probably similiar technology but unique.

Dark Forces had some pretty cool technology in it too. In addition to the 2.5d level design that the better FPS games had at the time, it allowed secondary fire effectivly doubling the number of guns. Also it had a really cool second engine that was real 3d. So blaster bolts were possible and a few areas with bridges that you could go under and over--that hadn't been done before to my knowledge.

JK also had great technology. JK2 is using a really good engine, but its getting old. Look at Anachronox. It's going to be finished at the end of the month supposedly. It uses the Quake 2 engine and it looks like it will have excellent gameplay. I'll get it since I'v been looking forward to it for like 4 years, but the graphics really can't compare to current games. I doubt it will sell very well since you have to have a pretty game in addition to good gameplay.
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Old 06-09-2001, 01:13 AM   #32
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Half-Life is cool. But it came out a year after JK. That's when things really started picking up in teh gaming industry. Jedi Knight was just the beginning. Jk, QuakeII, HL, UT, SOF. All those games started coming out shortly after Jk did.

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Old 06-09-2001, 02:52 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by COWB0Y:
<STRONG>yes immersion is important, but hell JK immersed me in its sp gameplay</STRONG>
I hear ya there.
Quote:
<STRONG>
as did doom2 and hexen....
</STRONG>
Doom2...I loved it, but immersive? Did you actually think a cyberdemon was gonna blast through your door and pump your ass full of rockets. Well I didn't.


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Old 06-09-2001, 03:53 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Killer:
<STRONG>Okay--when JK was released there was basically no other 3d FPS games yet.
</STRONG>
Well, except for Hexen II... and Unreal & QII came out soon afterward.

Quote:
<STRONG>Half-Life came out in November 98, Q3test wasn't even around for another few months. UT was much later too.</STRONG>
Ah, yeah, right, got my years wrong there. However, SiN and Heretic II came out at that time and both looked at least as good as Half-Life, graphically.

Quote:
<STRONG>I would imagine that Raven does pretty well, but I'm sure Activision owns at least part of the rights for SOF and EF.</STRONG>
Activision owns Raven. LEC is essentially hiring Activision to do JKII, so it would seem there are no ownership conflicts.

I agree about DF & JK, both had very detailed gameplay and were ahead-of-their times in technology.
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Old 06-09-2001, 04:11 AM   #35
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LEC is also, letting/hiring Activision to distribute JKII throughout Europe, which Activision does a lot of anyway.

I've never played Doom2. Just the original Doom for NES. Or was it just the Nintendo? That was such a long time ago.

And I quote the Iguana:
"So young, So violent, damn that [Doom Video Game]"

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Old 06-09-2001, 04:19 AM   #36
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lets just all wait for the next batch of screenshots


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Old 06-09-2001, 04:23 AM   #37
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Have you any _idea_ how long that could possibly be!? That could be tomorrow, next week, next month, a day before the game comes out even!!!!!!

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Old 06-09-2001, 04:45 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ki-Adi-Mundi:
<STRONG>Have you any _idea_ how long that could possibly be</STRONG>

yes, i do


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Old 06-09-2001, 05:27 AM   #39
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I don't know what you've been smoking but those look like some of the best graphics ever to me. Besides, screenshots NEVER show how the game really looks. No worries here.
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Old 06-09-2001, 05:32 AM   #40
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Everyone, just calm down. The game will look fine. If it's the most amazing, cutting-edge, and breath-taking graphics to date that you want, JKII will not have that. But it will have very good graphics.


JKII is going to be a book with a nice cover, and a good story to boot. Don't get your pannies in a wad just yet

[ June 09, 2001: Message edited by: Vagabond ]
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