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Old 08-13-2001, 09:33 PM   #161
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hehe nearly a page and a half of posts in 18 hours. it is a bit of a pain to read through but I hope raven does b/c some good stuff is covered here..

Quote:
Kurgran:
On a somewhat releated not, I once read somebody claiming that they could (in JK or MotS, maybe both) use Force Destruction to detonate incoming Rail charges.
Yes, anything with splash damage can detonate a rail det. It has to be close enough to the explosion-like on a wall- though to catch any of the splash damage so its not a real noticable thing. Thats why it hurts even more when your trying to leave a few sticky rails to shake off a pursuer and someone fires a conc close enough to you so that you catch not only their shot but damage from your own prematurely detonated rail


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Old 08-13-2001, 10:40 PM   #162
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"Faster Lightsaber Attack Rate"

good.. it was a bit too slow

"Location Based Lightsaber Damage (and damage which could affect target movement)"

definitly, and hits on arms/weapons should stop the guy firing..

"Increased Lightsaber Damage"

yes, tho tbh the sabre damage was realistic in jk no shields = death.. the shielding stopped the blow..

"Ability to block heavy weapons fire with Lightsaber(at cost of Force Block and/or Force Push, requires a suitable 'acqusition time' during which the incoming projectile must be visible)"

I think player reaction times should be good enough. in jk you could see items coming in on the map with seeing on from behind..
the sabre should in no way come into it tho, it should be the force only, you simply need to turn to face it and either get a throw lock on a player, and divert it to that player, or to use push to stop/ detonate it in flight (assuming push to be ala TPM the game)

"Toggled Automatic Lightsaber Blocking"

imho no. always on..

"Effective ranged lightsaber attack (faster, steerable Force lightsaber throw)"

steerable sabre throw is done according to a preview
and pulling the target towards you will help in attack remember..

"More lightsaber attack moves/combinations"

yes..

"Better lightsaber animations"

erm, yeah like they wont be doing that..

"Toned Down Speed and Jump (in decreased magnitude and duration and/or increased Force cost)"

depends, If they are going for a jedi using weapons thing then no, make it similar to JK1
if they want nf classes in with jedi, then yes, speed mainly should be remodeled for short sharp bursts..

"Force Pull to drag opponent within lightsaber killing range"

why is that even listed?

"Customizable gameplay settings (e.g., gravity, overall speed)"

q3 engine = this will happen. also most probably you will be able to disable items/weapons you dislike, and prolly force powers..
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Old 08-14-2001, 12:50 AM   #163
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Bee you first say 'pulling the target towards you will help in attack remember..'

And then you don't understand why "Force Pull to drag opponent within lightsaber killing range" is even listed?

Strange.


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

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Old 08-14-2001, 02:31 AM   #164
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Well if I were to make comments on the way people are approaching this discussion:

Balance, the pursuit of balance is very much the pursuit of fun. Every one wants to have their general play style well represented, to have one so much more powerful then the other that even the most skillful player cannot compensate is not fun. Anyone care to disagree or state that they actually enjoy getting slaughtered because of grievous imbalances? Playing the underdog is one thing, playin the Gimp is entirely another.

Physics, the more accurate and true to the SW universe the more potentially immersive SW experience, weigh that against fun,if after this you still want to do it, include it. I don't see the harm in exploring it for the benfits it can bring. E.g. It would be fun to force push and throw a slow-moving heavy weapons projectile out of my path and possibley into something else... but I would also have the benefit of knowing that this would really have a good chance of happening in the SW universe! Thank you physics for that added believablity.

Be careful though that you don't try to explain everything in terms of fun. I think the a heavy moving projectile should blow up when it is blocked by the saber- explosions are cool, that would be fun! Believe it or not gritty long-winded arguments do have their advantages to this.

Sorry no specific improvements at this time but hopefully this post will be helpful in other ways.
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Old 08-14-2001, 02:39 AM   #165
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this thread is long


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Old 08-14-2001, 04:20 AM   #166
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and so...
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Old 08-14-2001, 07:00 AM   #167
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i think 7 pages is the longest thread so far.....


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Old 08-14-2001, 08:47 AM   #168
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they said u could 'deflect' thermals, presumably with the saber. if u can deflect thermals u should be able to deflect projectiles. say if there were 'rails' like in jk, u should be able to give em a good whack and thus prevent them from splodin.

however, it seems to me we're all thinkin bout the concussion rifle and how much that ruined use of the saber.

easy to fix, just don't include it in the game or scale it back so its not so powerful. or make it like the bfg. either way a gun whose bullet is intangible is gonna be the gun that can rule ass on the lightsaber. so make either make all the bullets tangible or make that gun the uber weapon that ruins the game fer a few minutes like the bfg or the supershield.

pretty sure whatchu all want is *tangible* bullets and thats the end of that.


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Old 08-14-2001, 12:25 PM   #169
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The conc is perhaps the epitome of gun superiority over sabers in JK, I agree.

It almost seems like the designers of JK2 wanted to heavily continue in the tradition of Dark Forces enough so that when they needed a heavy weapon to use in multiplayer they just figured 'why not just use the conc.'

It seemed the JK team wanted to add a heavy weapon of their own (who wouldn't want to make one up) so with rail the JK gun scene became a little top-heavy. Having two heavy weapons in one weapons line up is certainly not unheard of (just look at Quake 3, that vanilla balance has held true for a while). It was the conc that really threw the balance off especially when combined with the rail against saberists.

Although the conc was modified somewhat for JK, there was obviously no saber or multiplayer in Dark Forces for them to check the balance to. I guess they figured the saber would be powerful enough against guns like the conc because of the force powers you could use with the saber. One thing- the gunners had force too. Oops.

Without even modifying the Saber one thing that would help it would be a mode (one of many) that allows gunners with no force to face Jedi full of force. It isn't very fun for me in a roleplaying gameplay sense to face some force jumping dolt with a conc while I'm trying to play a Jedi. That will take care of some problems right there.

I'm glad you pointed that out, Lucky. We can explore saber concepts till we are blue in the face but sabers are not the only thing to modify if you want a respectable saber. We can look to the guns themselves.

Perhaps Raven has seen the wisdom in not throwing the conc back into the mix. As of now it will not be returning to JK2. As much as I love Dark Forces, I think this is for the better.

Vagabond pointed out many guns we could use in the Uber Heavy Weapon Slot that are already established in the Star Wars Universe. We could talk about how one of those might work in JK2, or someone here can think of how they want their completely original Uber Heavy JK2 weapon to work, keeping in mind how it will work against the saber. Any ideas?
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Old 08-14-2001, 02:52 PM   #170
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Here are some of the known 'canon' heavy weapons (thanks very much to Vagabond for compiling the Weapons Database) which I think are promising:

BlasTech DLT-19 Heavy Blaster Rifle. Powerful Imperial issue assault rifle. Shorter range than the Valken-38 Carbine, but certainly looks as cool. Ranged hitscan weapon. Lay down the hurt.

BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon. Fires plasma. Could be a good ranged splash weapon.

BlasTech E-Web Repeating Blaster. Deployable Point Defense. Not sure this would fit in, as it is deployed, very hampered mobility. The damage it could dish out would have to be devastating to compensate for the risks inherent in a stationary weapon. Could be very fun to play with though. Outlaws was able to pull off a similar weapon (the deployable gatling gun).

Kelvarek Consolidated Arms MM9 Rocket System. The Rocket launcher. Probably more appropriate to Jedi Outcast than the anti-vehicle PLX-2M Missile Launcher.

Other promising medium weapons:

Golan Arms FCI Flechette Launcher (probably redundant to the Imperial Repeater)

Pacnorval Defense System, Limited SG-82 Sonic Rifle. May function like a shotgun, possibly redundant to the bowcaster.

Tenloss DXR-6 Disruptor Rifle. Hard-hitting assassination rifle. (May be redundant to Raven's promised 'sniper rifle.')

Relby-V10 Micro Grenade Launcher. Fire grenades at your foes. Sounds cool, but I still think that a grenade launcher should be attached to the Imperial Repeater.

Still doesn't answer how these weapons will balance out, but it's a starting point, beyond the old Jedi Knight standbys of Rail and Concussion.

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]


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Old 08-14-2001, 04:45 PM   #171
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ok, this is a little nit-picky, but i dont think that this is true...
Quote:
Golan Arms FCI Flechette Launcher (probably redundant to the Imperial Repeater)
because dont flechette launchers launch projectiles, while the imp repeater used powercells, so i figgured that the repeater would have some sort of energy projectile...

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Old 08-14-2001, 05:03 PM   #172
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Yes the Repeater is an energy-based gun, and yes its projectiles are energy. This was better illustrated in DF than in JK.

From Vagabonds column:
Golan Arms FCI Flechette Launcher
A flechette launcher shoots a special projectile toward a target. When the projectile is only a few meters from the target, the projectile explodes, releasing hundreds of razor-sharp flechettes, shredding objects unfortunate enough to be in the blast area. Projectiles come in anti-personnel and anti-vehicular flavors. This could be a very fun weapon to use as well, although I'm not sure that it feels like a Star Wars weapon.

Perhaps Wilhuf meant there was already a gun filling up the spot of multiple rapid fire. Also I dont know how they would work the whole exploding into hundreds of razors, sounds too damaging. And it doesnt really feel like it should be in JK2.


Wilhuf you mentioned this weapon:
BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon
Its Type: Blaster / Plasma

Vagabond wrote:
Quote:
If any true Star Wars weapon screamed, "I am the real concussion rifle", this is it..... And you know if IG-88 used it, it's got to be bad. I'd love to see this gun make its way into JKII.
Perhaps one way to balance the larger guns would be to replace the concussion rifle with this gun in JK2. Its a weapon that sounds large enough to dish out some serious damage. Perhaps balance could be achieved through it, it would be able to be blocked by a saber as it is a Blaster/Plasma but you are not able to totally block it and a fraction of the normal damage gets through. It could be a splash weapon, as its plasma, so gunners can try for splash damage which would do more. But if a Jedi could get to it he could partially block it, some of the damage still getting through, this way its balanced for saberist and gunner.
Just an idea.

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]


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Old 08-14-2001, 06:15 PM   #173
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Yes I'm thinking the flechette gun would be redundant to the repeater, acdcfanbill. Basically both act as a submachinegun type weapon. But it is true the gameplay would be different if using splash damaging explosive flechettes compared to non-explosive repeater rounds.

I'd rather see a hitscan nonsplash submachinegun type weapon (with a grenade launcher attached) Hopefully the saber can block repeater rounds (up to a point. A certain proportion of rounds should hit the target, just like any weapon against the Saber).

I agree, Syndrix, with Vagabond's original comment that the pulse cannon could be the Concussion Rifle replacement. The plasma rounds would issue splash damage.

Perhaps the plasma rounds could be blocked and defelected by Saber, or blocked (but not deflected) with partial damage going to the Saberist, as you've suggested. Splash of course wouldn't be blocked at all.

Although I really like the DLT-19 Heavy Blaster Rifle's looks. Looks like it could do real damage (looks sorta like the WW-II German MG-42, probably based on it. Hmm a machinegun converted to a rifle?).

The DLT-19 could be a high powered hitscan energy-based weapon that fires very powerful blaster rounds. Slow-moderate rate of fire, but medium to high damage. Saber blockable.


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

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Old 08-14-2001, 07:43 PM   #174
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Quote:
From Vagabonds column:
Golan Arms FCI Flechette Launcher
A flechette launcher shoots a special projectile toward a target. When the projectile is only a few meters from the target, the projectile explodes, releasing hundreds of razor-sharp flechettes, shredding objects unfortunate enough to be in the blast area. Projectiles come in anti-personnel and anti-vehicular flavors. This could be a very fun weapon to use as well, although I'm not sure that it feels like a Star Wars weapon.
Wow. All of those projectiles are just not directly blockable by the saber alone. That would be a great anti-jedi weapon but we don't want gun dominance all over again. I would only include it if flechettes were very weak in nature, putting in the damage of, say, hundreds of swarming bees.

I also like the idea of putting in that plasma cannon, the BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon. Syndrix your reasoning looks pretty sound to me. The saber could block and deflect the plasma blast but a fraction of the damage would still get through, from kind of a mini-splash from the intial impact of the plasma burst against the saber as it is deflected.

I would also add that additional splash damage that you mentioned from shooting near the Jedi could have a very minimal radius, nothing near what the conc was capable of. Something between the splash of the Plasma Gun and BFG in Quake 3 could be a nice compromise in this regard.

The gunners would now be able to do low damage against a Jedi while he is blocking and low-moderate splash damage near the Jedi. All this instead of uber unblockable damage to the body of Jedi and high splash damage near the Jedi from the conc in JK2. Way more balanced imo.

I only see one problem to this. While the gameplay from this gun does appear pretty solid... Since the BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon is said to produce blaster/plasma fire this could be a reason for the plasma-ish shots to actually reflect off the saber (some sort of blaster/plasma hybrid fire). Normal plasma usually just splash-nails someone, the burst would lose its integrety and be non deflectable as it hit the saber. Perhaps this described hybrid fire of the gun (or does it just have two seperate ammo types it can fire?) could be an excuse to have it fire kind of a more powerful splash version of the secondary JK bowcaster fire, which is partially magnetically sealed to bounce around.

...So from the more important in this case 'gameplay side' I think the BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon is great.

The other matter for me is the believablity/makes sense factor which could still use some work...

A nice explosive projectile gun would be a nice compliment gameplay-wise to the BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon. I would make it something with more of an arc or slowness in its fire, either slower or a lot less straighter or limited in range then the rail.

Adding a grenade-type launcher to the reapter seems plausible to me. Only reason I would be wary of this is because the ability to fire repeater fire and grenades within milliseconds of each other might make this gun too powerful... The mp5 w/ grenade launcher was the weapon to have in half-life deathmatch, it was too uber. The Jedi shall be a bit more protected then your average gunner though.

Still, I might prefer a seperate gun that can only fire explosive type projectiles with the properties I mentioned earlier that would make it weaker then the rail.
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Old 08-14-2001, 08:19 PM   #175
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Actually it was quite funny to watch somebody try to shoot my saber with a repeater.. as I would block all of those fast flying shots.

And as long as you lined them up properly, three Stormtroopers shooting at me with their blaster rifles in SP was just as easily blocked.

Are you guys thinking maybe of the limited blocking ability of something like Jedi Power Battles?

Of course I could turn the tables on a saberist who thought they were going to block my repeater shots by using secondary fire on him. He wouldn't be able to block the SPREAD of three shots, and so I'd wear him down and he'd die, even if one of the shots was consistently directed back at me.

Also I got lots of kills on saberists with my ST rifle simply by crouching and firing at a key moment. CROTCH SHOT! as they like to say in UT.. ; )

Here's an idea I don't think has been mentioned.. have a heavy weapon that can be blocked by saber but will Not deflect (ie: it just fizzles out on the blade) and not as in an explosive, but like the plasma gun.

Say the saber just absorbs the energy from the shot and gives off sparks.

Kurgan

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]
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Old 08-14-2001, 09:36 PM   #176
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Have u guys even considered the fact that this is a client server environment and not peer to peer like JK?

Once u get by the idea that the saber can block everything to a fair to somewhat poor degree, u gotta realize, u don't have to lead people.

u aren't going to have to chase people around and get behind their ghosts so it won't be absurdly impossible to hit someone with yer saber. It'll be much more like quake 1 and the axe, except even better because of area specific damage.

U'll just have to swing at them and not around them behind them or anything else. The saber as it was in JK in a client/server environment is already a hugely advantageous weapon.

I like the idea of having the saber being a weapon u can rely upon instead of a last ditch effort when yer out of ammo, but it really doesn't need to be tweaked all *that* much.

The saber should be on par with every other weapon in the game, but for the most part, if yer going for that vanilla flavor of q3, EVERY OTHER weapon should be on par with THE SABER. otherwise folks will be utterly annoyed with the guns in the game.

It'll make for a very unique game if yer already armed to the teeth upon spawn, but it'll actually be fairly true to the way JK is played nowadays. U'll have a chance and won't get gibbed on spawn.

at the same time, the saber shouldn't be "safe". it should take a considerable ammount of skill to keep yerself from getting shot to death with the darker flavors on the vanilla scale. It should be *possible* but not *easy* to come out of any situation without having gotten completely fried.

should be kind of a hot potatoe situation. A lil like tennis. They shoot an area effect weapon at u, u lunge for the projectile before it can explode and vape it. u can do that mebe once or twice before they nail u, but u should have a chance to whack whatever it is thats coming at u out of the air.

that'd be good balance for the saber, and lend itself towards a good sized skill curve that'd add to replayability.

basically, 1 mebe 2 out of 5 times u went up against a big gun with just yer saber u'd get lucky and nail the lil explosive or the beam or whatever it is.

Lucky


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Old 08-14-2001, 09:58 PM   #177
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And a few other things; figured i'd split this up a bit.

The plasma gun would be pretty nifty as the milk chocolate gun fer JK2, however, don't count the conc out. I think i have a pretty good idea for how u could use it.

Have the conc do a heck of a lot less damage, but give it a heck of a lot more kick. Make it the rail/mine/conc/rocket/etc/adnauseum/er's dream.

Essentially make it a gun that shoots u around like a madman, and other people as well. Concussive, non damaging force. Mebe have the primary shot as it is now be the 2ndary shot, and have its primary function shooting super fast bits o metal like the 'rail' gun does in q3.

One way would be like plugging up a hose till it pops whatever is in it out, the other way would just be leting the hose run willy nilly.

JK has prolly the best and most challenging system of weapon jumping ive ever seen or played. Its better'n quake, better than anything. One conc jump is essentially the same distance as one strafe jump with speed, one rail jump is the same as one force jump. Its fun, difficult, and adds a huge chunk to the skill curve, which in turn would add to the replayability yada yada yada..

If yer lookin for an equivalent in the gaming world today, think of this revised conc as a cross between that stoopid pump gun in ut and a grapple hook. cept without the ability to gib.

yar!!


Lucky


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Old 08-14-2001, 11:57 PM   #178
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Wilhuf : I don't see the point of listing an already confirmed, and Demostrated feature, in a list of Suggested Improvements. Its as bad as discussing if a quake 3 based game will have dedicated servers, its a 99.9999999% certainty. thats all I was saying their.. its important, but its not something we have suggested..

Krayt Tion:
yeah physics can help, but its definitly not more important then fun and balance
and no I cant see a problem in using the force to deflect grenades and rails. (blasters and conks yes)
but I do find problems wif using the sabre.. it would just cause it to explode very close to you.. their is no real way round this..
but if it did add to gameplay I wouldnt be a major problem.. but throw seems the logical way..

And agreed Balance is EXTREMELY important..
the disbalance between light and dark in jk was very very very irritating.. in ff sabs being light was near usless, and in ff guns, lighties using pull and absorb, meant beating lighties of equal skill was impossible. you could only beat lesser lighties..

As for the conky, the conky was imo a major problem for nf guns, and the sabre. although in ff a gunner could be beaten by a sabrest, tho usually the sabrest had to be better..
however dumping the conky imho would be a mistake, it needs redesigning, I think making it similar to the q3 railgun a instant hit pin point weapon, with lower damage then a blaster, so that in a straight fight a blaster wins, but with the advantage of the jedi having no protection against it except utilising the force, and its slowish reload time. maybe as sugested earlier (just rehashing ideas ive said before) a nice large force but little damage 2ndry.. but if it needs cutting to get a jedi v nfer balance hey..

As for canon, well out side the movies I really don't like the books for canon... I think of the weapons in jk to be more canon then books, but thats me.. and I dont really care what they are called..
a plasma gun sounds good tho.. something like the one out of SotE that IG88 fires at you? that would be good..
tho I would still love the conk their for its secondry fire..
a nice solid Plasma gun, used similarly to the pg out of q3, for a medium close weapon. would be good tho.. a few new weapons, but I would rather keep the DF weapons for the most part tbh.. it never bothered me, thousands of worlds, thousands of technologies, thousands of weapons, mostly unheard of. it added extra depth to the sw uni, a few that link to the film, some that extend it. a nice blend imho

"Although I really like the DLT-19 Heavy Blaster Rifle's looks. Looks like it could do real damage (looks sorta like the WW-II German MG-42, probably based on it. Hmm a machinegun converted to a rifle?)."

prolly is one, wif some bits welded on to techify it..

However I think we are missing a key bit of info (well it has been mentioned) to really talk about balance on a whole for the game

class based
or
straight dm

Achieving balance being totally different in each case.. if everyones a jedi, then the weapons do all need to be balanced.. as lucky says.. no weapon should be all powerfull

If its class based, then the jedi can only use the sabre and force, so it needs to be balanced such.. in a jk a force user without speed jump or pull, and just seeing and grip, could best an nf gunner on a tightish map.

on oasis with its open space, he would be in problems, but with pull he would certainly be winning 90% of the time..
the advantages of seeing + map are quite incredible.. it means you always meet on your terms.
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Old 08-15-2001, 12:36 AM   #179
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In that case, Bee I should remove Force Throw, better lightsaber animations, force pull, improved network code (already removed that from the list, actually), automatic blocking, location based damage, more lightsaber attack moves/combinations, and customizable gameplay settings. All of those have made their way into the game. No point in discussing those right?


Wilhuf

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Old 08-15-2001, 12:49 AM   #180
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I didnt say it shouldnt be discussed.. its just not really an suggested improvement.. if its already been confirmed..
with the exception of improved graphics, and server config options(which are really quite obvious, and the config options will 99% exist cause of the q3 engine)
all the rest have room for improvement or specific details havent been released

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: KillerBee ]
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Old 08-15-2001, 02:43 AM   #181
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Bah, the conc SHOULD be deflectable, everything execpt explosives like the rail gun, the saber should be able to deflect ALL energy based weapons. Now dont give me that "conc is air" crap. It should and can be deflected, "the turrent conc shots can be deflected" why not the conc bolts itself? Like ive said before, the saber should at least have a chance (be able to deflect and such). A jedi doesnt rely on dodging fire, he rely's on defensive blocking to redirect the fire back at the shooter.
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Old 08-15-2001, 02:53 AM   #182
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the conc is air =P

those turret shots were both different 3do's and different from the conc.


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Old 08-15-2001, 03:53 AM   #183
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I think it's safe to say that the conc will be in JKO since it was in Dark Forces and Jedi Knight. This time around it seems as though they will make the saber the best weapon(having short range and long range abilities). It was too easy to kill a saberist with a conc head on in JK. They NEED to make the conc shots deflectable, but they should be difficult to master blocking them.
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Old 08-15-2001, 04:36 AM   #184
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I agree slowbie. And if the conc is air then why should it cause WAAAAAAY more damage than an explosive rail? Shouldnt air push you into a wall? Hmmm and the blaster bolts are made from heated gas (almost the same density as air SHOCKING) and releases as a hella hot bolt, which can be deflected by the saber. So why not the conc bolts? ( i say bolts because the conc fires and is pretty much like a huge blaster bolt painted blue )
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Old 08-15-2001, 09:17 AM   #185
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not really.

I say don't sacrifice the integrity of the conc, just balance it better. Conc shoots concussive force, does not shoot energy.

Should not be blockable, its not a bolt, its a boom.

superheated gas=same density as air my ass, guess u never took chemistry.

Should change the power of the conc and not its basic properties.

Lucky


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Old 08-15-2001, 10:37 AM   #186
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slowbie, having long range abilities doesn't actually mean it will be a good long range weapon. I wouldn't give up my saber for a second against a good gunner - the only times I'd give it up if I had a sure shot mid to close range - any other situation and you're suddenly unable to block for a few secs against a enemy who carries a heavy hitting gun and probably evaded your saber when he saw it coming a mile away.

and they probably wont include conc if they can't balance well enough to give more power to the saber so don't think its safe to assume that conc will be in JK yet.


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Old 08-15-2001, 10:57 AM   #187
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since we're talking about guns now not sabers in this thread which is by far the longest we've had, what do you guys think about a sniper rifle? obiwan was going to have one. would you consider that a substitute for the conc?


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Old 08-15-2001, 01:24 PM   #188
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I can can understand both Lucky and Eve, but this isn't chemistry, it's a game. Would you like to have the advantage with the conc? Or would you like it to be a fair fight no matter what weapon? If most people seem to need an advantage, then I pray they replace the conc with something else.
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Old 08-15-2001, 01:34 PM   #189
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The Jedi Knight Concussion rifle could double (somewhat) as a sniper rifle, in secondary fire. So in that regard, yes a sniper rifle could replace that function. And seeing how a sniper rifle could be almost as lethal as a Concussion rifle, it could play as the 'big gun' that everyone vies for.

But as far as the Concussion Rifle primary fire role goes, (heavy long range weapon with splash) I don't think a sniper rifle would be a suitable replacement.

Mostly because the 'feeling' of the sniper rifle just wouldn't replace the Concussion Rifle's (assuming that the Jedi Outcast sniper rifle is somehow similar to other sniper rifles in other FPS games). The Concussion Rifle is not a very subtle weapon. Large explosion, risk of splashing the user, lots of noise, lots of shooting. Very fun to use. The sniper rifle probably won't have that kind of feel (no or very small explosions, no risk of harming the user, much less noise, less shooting, at least certainly not for splashing a target).

Seeing how I and other gamers like explosions, laser blasts and effects, I'd rather see some kind of immolating or explosive splash weapon as the 'top gun,' rather than a sniper rifle. Although it would be great fun to also have a sniper rifle in addition to the Concussion Rifle (or whatever weapon it ends up as). Should make for great gunner duels.

Hopefully Jedi Outcast will feature more than just two top weapons (e.g., Rail Detonator and Concussion Rifle) that dominate the gun battle scene.

I thought I read that Jedi Outcast was confirmed with a dedicated sniper rifle but I may be confusing that with reports on a scoped standard blaster rifle which acts as a sniper weapon in secondary fire. Anyone have info on this?


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Old 08-15-2001, 03:09 PM   #190
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I think I read the sniper rifle is secondary mode for the ST rifle, not a dedicated gun of its own. I could be wrong, and hopefully I am, because I would much rather see a dedicated sniper. Of course if Raven do it well I dont mind either way.

Assuming the coc is going to be in JK2 just because it was in DF and JK is, IMO, quite unfounded. That doesnt mean it will be, plenty of guns have disappeared in between sequel games.

Also I dont see why everyone is crying "save the conc" (well I do, but you know what I mean), no matter what, there is obviously, going to be a powerful gun. If it isnt the conc, so be it, the conc was OK but it wasnt a brilliant one of a kind gun that should always be around. If another weapon takes its position, whats the difference. Chances are if it re-appears it will be "tweaked", in some games guns have actually totally changed in function from original to sequel.

Also, if they decided they had to make massive modifications for the sake of, yes thats correct balance, would you want to see changed. Perhaps just a whole new weapon is in order, yeah it was cool, the noise it made and the explosion of air you saw. But you can't, logically, block air and either you must be able to block it (or partially block it) or its splash radius drastically reduced. But if you reduce the splash radius too much you may unbalance the game in the opposite way, that and ever gunner would whinge. I want an exciting gun too, but I dont want one that dominates everything else like JK.

There also must be a certain balance between the guns themselves. Everyone wanted the conc (and rail) in JK. The sniper rifle (or ST rifle with scope?) will go part of the way, because lots of people like playing the sniper. But the lower order guns have to have their own usefulness, to a certain extent because they are lower after all.


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basically, 1 mebe 2 out of 5 times u went up against a big gun with just yer saber u'd get lucky and nail the lil explosive or the beam or whatever it is.
I'd also like to point out that really isnt balance. Balance would be if a saberist had just as much chance to intercept it as the gunner did of getting splash damage against the saberist. That way its skill on the behalf of poth parties, not just the saberist who has to be better than the gunner to come out on top.

The saber should have a good sized skill curve, true, but I like to state it shouldnt be a skill curve based against the powerful guns themselves, but against learning how to use the saber itself, with a little part how to use it against the powerful guns (but not to hard to learn).
This was the problem in JK, in FF a saberist could beat a gunner but as killer bee said, the saberist had to be better. Why, by default, should the gunner have the advantage?

[ August 15, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]


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Old 08-15-2001, 09:32 PM   #191
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the conky can be made balance in nicely with the sabre without the need for it to be blockable.
some weapon should be able to breach the sabre defences.. imho, but it should be not that damaging. The secondry fire conk.. with the primary fire designed for weapon jumps and pushing people about could balance in fine, if it does lower damage per second then a blaster pistol(due to low fire rate) which would make it very poor v anyone other then a jedi.
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Old 08-16-2001, 12:39 AM   #192
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it looks like its pretty easy to lose your grip on your saber.. would too much weapon damage knock it out of your hand or does loss of your saber only occur when your injured by a force assault?

btw, killerbee's conc idea is pretty good


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Old 08-16-2001, 01:26 AM   #193
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Well heres how i see it, you make the conc unblockable, and EVERY fricken one will be using it, due to its unstopable fire. I mean come on, its just gonna make the conc "the gun to use against a jedi" all over again, and thats what will make the game feel like the same old jk. You could make the conc balanced and blockable if you make it were a jedi could block conc shots to a CERTAIN extent. ( Like a threshold and block to a certain extend before giving into the powerful fire )

--==Edit--==

Omg eve thats what i was thinking, heh posted about the same time.


[ August 15, 2001: Message edited by: Tap[RR] ]
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Old 08-16-2001, 11:57 AM   #194
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Like it or not, there must be a Jedi Killer weapon, otherwise all other classes will be unable to stop the Jedi (again, assuming MP has class-based combat). MotS had a Jedi Killer weapon in the carbonite gun - the weapon of choice for bounty hunters, and it was quite effective, despite whinning from a few circles.

All this talk of every weapon being blockable is absurd. If JKII had a flame thrower, you'd have people arguing that fire should be blockable too. Look, everyone, we all like Jedis, but there simply must be a way of effectively attacking a Jedi with a weapon. If there's not, then this game will be dead on arrival, with regard to MP.
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Old 08-16-2001, 01:43 PM   #195
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Yes, talk of blocking all weapons is absurd. Blocking a flamethrower would be strange. And finding a flamethrower in the Star Wars galaxy would be almost as strange.

What is also absurd is when the Lightsaberist is dead before getting within striking range of the gunner because he doesn't have adequate defense. Not because of anything the gamer did, but because the game will not let him deflect heavy weapons fire.

It is a matter of degree. I am not proposing 100% blocking all of the time. Maybe some here are, I don't know, but I don't agree with the concept. As I've said several times, a certain proportion of rounds would have to hit the target, even if they are blockable.

The perception here seems to be that blocking would somehow deflect a huge portion of incoming fire. Several people have said that heavy weapons saber blocking would basically be an unfair inpenetrable shield. Why?

It's unlikely, if Raven did implement heavy weapons blocking, that a Jedi could block even 75% of incoming heavy fire. If they incorporated 'acquistion time,' the proportion would drop even further.

Also, splash shouldn't be blockable. No splash blocking practically guarantees the saberist will still have a very difficult time against the gunner who knows how to lead the target.


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Old 08-16-2001, 02:42 PM   #196
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Remember there will probably be a "rocket launcher", even if it isnt the rail detornator. This type of weapon will not be blockable at all. Even if Raven did include the ability to "steer" the "rockets" away with force push, its not automatic and you would have to see incoming fire in plenty time.

Oh and I dont think every weapon should be totally blockable by the saber either.

Also, DeathBoLT, it was said by the shacknews person that if you threw your saber at an enemy saberist he would knock it out of the air. Is this what you are refering to about losing your saber.

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Old 08-16-2001, 03:19 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vagabond:
<STRONG>Like it or not, there must be a Jedi Killer weapon, otherwise all other classes will be unable to stop the Jedi (again, assuming MP has class-based combat). MotS had a Jedi Killer weapon in the carbonite gun - the weapon of choice for bounty hunters, and it was quite effective, despite whinning from a few circles.</STRONG>
While I understand your ultimate goal of balance in this matter I don't know if I would heavily favor a weapon to end all weapons as far as Jedi are concerned, a "Jedi Killer" weapon so to speak, even if it is short range like the Carb gun.

This concern is mostly founded on the possible scenario that they would stick in a Jedi Killer type weapon as kind of a cheap fix in order to disregard the effectiveness of all other weapons against the Jedi. Kind of like 'Well, we won't have to worry about making the other stuff work too well against Jedi so long as we have this one gun that works really well against them.' Don't get me wrong, feel free to include a gun that is better then most against killing Jedi. But not so good that it does not feel feasible for most to even use another weapon against the Jedi, lest they get slaughtered. The game will be more exciting imo the more weapons have at least some effect on the Jedi and are not completely blockable. This allows for more variety in gameplay and strategies, which is almost always fun in an FPS, imo.

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Originally posted by Vagabond:
<STRONG>All this talk of every weapon being blockable is absurd. If JKII had a flame thrower, you'd have people arguing that fire should be blockable too. Look, everyone, we all like Jedis, but there simply must be a way of effectively attacking a Jedi with a weapon. If there's not, then this game will be dead on arrival, with regard to MP.</STRONG>
I agree on the principle based around this concept, I'm just thinking of it in terms of damage- as in many shots can be blocked and deflected by Jedi, many back in the direction of the sender, but the Jedi will still take damage from the splash or what have you while he is redirecting the shot. That way the Jedi still gets hurt and therefore can be killed by certain weapons but at the same time if he is backed into a corner he now has a bit better defense then he did in JK- defense which I think is needed. This is illustrated more in depth in my last post where the BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon was mentioned. To bring your first quote back into dicussion, I think they should give something to gunners like the Golan Arms FCI Flechette Launcher, which was also dicussed in my last post. Most of the hundreds of sharp flechettes from the projectile would not be blockable and would hit the Jedi. This very much could be your "Jedi Killer" weapon but with the damage dealt by it toned down a bit for right balance.
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Old 08-16-2001, 05:47 PM   #198
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1.Saber blocking should require some skill from the player and not be automatic.

2.A heavy weapon or two should be unblockable.

Therefore...

1.A poorly skilled Jedi could be shot by the weakest lazer weapon.

2.An experienced Jedi should know to avoid head on attacks when his opponent has a heavy weapon.

What's the big deal? Differing from the above would make stormtroopers and most non-jedi players pretty pointless. They'd just get hacked by Jedi constantly and the Jedi player would get bored pretty quick. If a Jedi is vunerable to certain weapons or modes of attack you don't have a problem, you have a game.

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Old 08-16-2001, 08:06 PM   #199
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JKII isn't a role-playing game so, why should there be a dumb JK percentage-saber-auto-blocking-system?????

The power of the Jedi's in JKII should depend on the PLAYERS ability, not on the computer or luck!
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Old 08-16-2001, 09:23 PM   #200
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well if its class based if no one can beat a jedi, everyones going to be a bloomin jedi.
as I said the weapons going to be vastly inferior to blasters. scissors, paper, stone, jedi beats blasters, blasters beat conky, conky beats jedi. nice simple balance.
wif out any of the options becoming inferior, good for team play.
and if its not class based, then its right weapon right job time.. "everyones going to use a jedi killer weapon " rubbish if they are going to get fried by a bloke with a ST rifle..
And a rail style weapon isn't that easy to use..

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