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Old 07-11-2001, 02:56 PM   #1
Mike
 
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Lightbulb Editing. Is it or will it be possible?

Well, if we all want to know if editing will be possible within JK2 then how about we travel over to LucasArts.com and find out! If anyone doesn't know that there is a chat event with the big cheese of LucasArts then here's what they said:



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Join us Wednesday, July 25th, at 6 pm (PST) and spend some time with LucasArts President, Simon Jeffery. Simon will be on hand to answer your questions and bring you up-to-date on our recently announced titles and future activities at LucasArts. The chat room will open at 5 pm (PST), so stop by early and spend some time with other LucasArts fans! Please pass the word and get your questions ready!


I say we go there on that day and ask him if there is any possible way we could edit JK2. Or if there will be editing programs that will come with JK2 (Although I will be camping then, so if anyone will go there that day and ask him for me, please tell me what he said).
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Old 07-12-2001, 02:17 AM   #2
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Personally how I feel is that what was said in the column posted here on JKII.net about the license agreement that states on the more new games that we are not allowed to edit them. Perhaps JKII will provide a huge editing community, but JKII is based on a movie license. Half-Life, Quake, Unreal Tournament - those games are fictionally thought up and I'm not too sure on this but back me up, can be edited. But even though JK 1 was completley editable in every aspect, I anticipate greatly Lucasarts' approval of editing the game, or even providing us with a editor such as Worldcraft or good ol' JED even
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Old 07-20-2001, 07:39 PM   #3
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It would stink if the sequel to Jedi Knight (a game that was incredibly easy to make mods for) was impossible to edit. I'm gonna join that live chat.


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Old 07-20-2001, 08:11 PM   #4
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Let's definitely make sure at the chat that LEC knows we want to know their position on editing for Jedi Knight Outcast.

We know that an editor, probably limited in capability, will ship for Galactic Battlegrounds. Just how far will LEC follow through in making JKO editable and giving us JORadiant?

As I've said before, it would be nice to find out now, so that if it turns out we cannot use Radiant, we can stop wasting our time with it.

I'd be really surprised (and dissapointed, of course) if we couldn't use Radiant to create JKO content. It would take actual coding effort to modify the base q3 technology to prevent us from using Radiant for JKO levels. It somehow seems unlikely that they would go through the trouble of actually removing Radiant support.

But then again, LEC lawyers nuked the idea of a dedicated server for X-Wing v. TIE Fighter because of their concern that end-user server administrators would somehow be 'controlling the Star Wars license.'
Noone said LEC had to act rationally.

Dunno which voice will be heard: the marketing lockdown types who don't want endusers creating content, or the programmers/designers who want to see their work enjoy a long online life through the support of user made content.

Who knows, maybe the marketing types have finally realized that an editor is a value-added game feature. (Or, more importantly, they recognized that it's just plain easier and more cost effective for LEC to license a fairly robust game engine and focus on content, rather than try to re-invent an entire game engine on their own.)

[ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]


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Old 07-26-2001, 01:07 AM   #5
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Ok here is what Simon had to say during the chat about editing:

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RAL_Thrawn: LucasArts seems to be trying to establish a better dialog with the fan community. Are there plans to support editng communities for new releases such as Outcast and Galaxies? And even for game such as jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith?

Simon Jeffery: Thanks for noticing our new effort with regard building and supporting our community. We appreciate everyone's enthusiasm. LucasArts is dilligently working toward accomodating the desires of our fans to allow for a greater level of interaction with our Star Wars and original titles. We can provide any specific details right now, but you'll be hearing more about our plans very soon. We think you'll be happy when we roll the news out.
So, Jeffery gives no specifics, but leaves the possibilities for editing Jedi Outcast wide open.

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

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Old 08-05-2001, 02:57 AM   #6
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As it will use the Q3 engine and the Raven Ghoul thechnology it will of course be editable with the Q3 editors, as all the other games using that engine.
It would be stupid from Lucas Arts to forbid editing, look at what's happening to Half-Life and all the mods and levels that have been done and gave that game such a success.
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Old 08-05-2001, 01:21 PM   #7
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Just because it's stupid doesn't mean LEC can't do it.

This is LEC we're talking about, the same company that issues cease and desist orders against Star Wars game mod sites. The same company that nixes dedicated servers for Xwing V. TIE Fighter because they somehow could threaten LEC control of the Star Wars license.

We're all hoping that LEC does the reasonable thing, of course, allowing editing rather than putting in the effort to actually remove the editing capability for JKO.


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

Winston Churchill, 1941.
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Old 08-06-2001, 04:32 PM   #8
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im new here but even i know that Lucas arts would never give fan based editing a chance. the reason? - it would allow them to be counter sued by all the people they're currantly taking to court right now. Lucas arts arguement is basically the use of copyrighted material in substandard "fan" based work...anybody could counter argue that allowing JK2 to be modifiable would leave it open to such substandard work therefore lucas arts would either have to shut up and pay out compensation or make JK2 unmodifiable...and lets not forget that the starwars universe is ongoing, say a mod was gona do sumthin that lucas arts already had a mind to do? they couldnt just turn up with cease and desist orders could they?...the only way i see lucas arts doin the mod thing is for them to give special permission to each and every mod and mod team. in other words if lucas dont like what you're gona put into the game you wont get make the mod.and that means very few poeple would acually get to mod for this game...im still gona buy thought!!


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Old 08-07-2001, 02:40 AM   #9
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umm, if LEC is so against mods and such, how is it site such as massassi stay open?

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Old 08-08-2001, 02:42 PM   #10
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Because Massassi doesn't prominently host Star Wars content for competing non-LEC game products.

If the mods don't hurt their bottom line they're not gonna clamp down.

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

Winston Churchill, 1941.
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Old 08-08-2001, 07:04 PM   #11
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Wilhuf, you said...

Quote:
If the mods don't hurt their bottom line they're not gonna clamp down.
Are you talking about Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith? Or are you also talking about JKII? Cause if you are talking about JKII too, then I think your about right. If the editing community of JKII doesn't hurt anything about LucasArts, then they probably wouldn't clamp down.

-sketch
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Old 08-08-2001, 08:37 PM   #12
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Agreed, sketch. I doubt LEC would deliberately clamp down on JKII mods or other mods to their existing games.

Some have said that LEC did clamp down on some mod for Jedi Knight years ago, but noone actually specified which mod.

Also LEC did clamp down recently (only a few months ago) on Jedi Eclipse, a Star Wars-based mod for Rune (a competing product).


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

Winston Churchill, 1941.
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Old 08-09-2001, 05:16 PM   #13
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Really? Is there any remains of Jedi Eclipse (website, ect.)? If not, what did it contain. Do you know?
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Old 08-11-2001, 11:57 PM   #14
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I don't think it's a question of editing being impossible, more of it being forbidden or permitted (via liscense agreement). If it was forbidden, I would think they WOULD go after websites that were publically distributing unofficial mods without their permission.

Now as to whether or not editing will be officially supported (as in a pack-in editor or released tools like Galactic Battlegrounds for example), etc, who can say, it would be nice...

I am betting that they will allow editing much like they did with JK, and any tools that are created will be unofficial/unsupported. Maybe Raven will help somebody or release an "unsupported" editor or something (their variation of Radient?).

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Old 08-13-2001, 08:55 PM   #15
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Technically any data file could be edited of course. My top editing question is 'will there be a Jedi Radiant or not?'

Another question (Argath asked this one way back) is 'can LEC legally prevent someone from editing their game?' I thought he was doing research on the issue (maybe in more comprehensive terms than just for Jedi Outcast), but I haven't heard any of his findings.

Sketch, Jedi Eclipse was a Rune modification that featured lightsaber dueling in Star Wars environments. The in-game screens showed the Emperor Palpatine and Qui Gonn dueling at the Theed Palace of Naboo. Running on the Rune (Unreal) engine.
I don't know if there is a remant anywhere, haven't looked. The original page is offline.


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

Winston Churchill, 1941.
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Old 08-15-2001, 04:17 PM   #16
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oh ok. i was just curious. i hope Argath is researching. i want to know about this stuff. very interesting.

-sketch
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Old 08-15-2001, 06:15 PM   #17
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im part of the rune community and as far as i know the authors basically said they were redirecting their efforts to suthin that they didnt get cease and desist orders for...but i can tell you i saw the orginal screenies nd they looked good and im mean really good...it was a professional looking mod...and i dont see why it was shut down concidering it was only multiplayer...


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Old 08-15-2001, 08:22 PM   #18
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Well I'm also part of the Rune community and I read a statement on the Jedi Eclipse page that they had indeed received a Cease and Desist notice from an LEC representative.

Here is the thread on Runegame.com discussing the issue.


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

Winston Churchill, 1941.
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Old 08-16-2001, 02:29 AM   #19
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Sorry, I've been away on the DCI tour for most of the summer, and consequently have been unable to access a computer. I did get a chance to pose the question to some attorneys, however, and while both of the men I talked to have not dealt with the copyright law regarding the modification of computer games, I did get at least a partial answer. Basically, they said the legality of EULA's is very iffy, and it's unlikely that a court would rule against the consumer if a case regarding the EULA was to be presented. However, I was also advised that there may be other provisions somewhere in the copyright law that would forbid editing unless the copyright holder specifically allowed it.

My friend Defiant found this article, which deals with the legality of EULA's. It basically argues that EULA's have no legal basis, and while I haven't read through the entire page yet, it seems to present a strong argument backed by fairly solid legal precedent. At any rate, it looks to be an interesting read, and it appears that the authors did their homework.

The copyright law itself can be found here, at the Library of Congress, if anyone is actually interested in reading through it. It does state that the copyright holder has the exclusive right to "prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work," which would presumably include add-ons and such for a video game, although the next 8 billion sections outline all the limitations on those rights, so there may be something in there that applies to computer games. However, I doubt even the most detailed perusal of the copyright law would be fruitful for anyone except an attorney familiar with the law and the established legal precedents regarding it.

Basically, I was able to find a decent amount of information regarding this topic, but I would hesitate to say I've presented anything that conclusively answers the question. I was unable to find anything related directly to creating mods for video games--although I admit my research has hardly been in-depth or time consuming--although the EULA article does deal with similar concepts. If I find anything that gives a conclusive answer to the question, I'll be sure to post it.

[ August 15, 2001: Message edited by: Argath ]
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Old 08-18-2001, 01:23 AM   #20
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I have confidence in Lucasarts. I would think they will allow editing, for JK2. The developers know what's goin on in the mod world right now. Basically every other game is editable. I can't see JO being any different.
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Old 08-18-2001, 05:22 PM   #21
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That was also true back when Jedi Knight was published. The mod scene was very active for other games. But no editor shipped with Jedi Knight, although editing was allowed, fortunately.


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

Winston Churchill, 1941.
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Old 08-19-2001, 12:08 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Argath:
<STRONG>...I've been away on the DCI tour for most of the summer...</STRONG>
Cool beans. You're earned some more respect from me (like anyone cares ). What group and what instrument?
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Old 08-19-2001, 05:24 AM   #23
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Tampa Bay Thunder, mellophone. Unfortunately the only option aside from paying outrageous amounts of money in airfare to go to a top Division I corps. We were at least rated at the top of Division II during our first tour, but then we took a two week break and had some problems even being competitive with the corps we'd previously beaten.

Ah well, next year only one longer tour is planned (and we're actually having auditions; lots of people were impressed with this year's show and want to join), so we should definitely wind up at the top of Division II, and most likely in top 21 for quarterfinals (top 5 from Div II/III finals go there). Regardless of placement or scores, it's just a really fun experience...although I suppose winning does make it better, and a nifty DCI Championship ring and a gold medal come with winning at finals.
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Old 08-22-2001, 01:48 PM   #24
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I asked MRJ of Raven Software, but he didn't answer my question.


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Old 08-24-2001, 05:11 PM   #25
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Personally, In hope that editing will be allowed. If it is not, then I won't be able to add this community to the DCGD network

This is one of those true gray areas involved with copyright issues. However, I believe that the logevity of Jedi Knight I is based on its editability. This no doubt has been factored in by LEC marketing gurus. Jedi Knight I would not have lasted had it not been editable. Frankly, it was not that great of a game.

As to LEC shutting down Star Wars mods for other games, I agree 100%.

If a totally awesome Star Wars mod was created for Unreal, and if the majority of Unreal's player community doesn't like LucasArts games, they would be playing a Star Wars game for free. Lucas Arts exists to make money above all else. They are, after all, a business. Therefore, if the intelectual property and artistic assets are being used in a competing game's mod, the mod makers are not making mone, but then neither is Lucas Arts...


I am optimistic that JK2 will be editable, though. They selected the Quake3 engine, which for every other game that uses it allows editing.

They are going with Raven to develop the game. Raven has a history of developing editable games.

By doing this, they pull in three distinct communities: The Jedi Knight community, because we've been looking forward to JK2 since MotS was released; The Quake community, because of their fondness for the Quake3 engine and the chance to see it used in a unique way; and the community that is dedicated to Raven's products.

the Jedi Knight fans will buy the game whether or not it is editable, but the Quake3 and Raven fans will not hang on to JK2 if it is not. Sales will be cut in half.

Editability will mean a gereater bottom line figure for LEC. And corporates always go for the best bottom line they can get.

Of course, this is only speculation... we'll just have to wait and see...


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Old 12-14-2001, 06:58 AM   #26
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Originally posted by Wilhuf
Technically any data file could be edited of course. My top editing question is 'will there be a Jedi Radiant or not?'
It dosen't matter if it is, there was barley any differnce between EFRadiant and Q3Radaint.

The worst thing that Lucasarts could do is not release the .map files. JK2 Will be editable, even if they don't make JORadaint.
It would be completly idiot if Lucasarts trashed editing from the game. If Elite Force couldn't edit maps, the EF community would be long gone. But now, it's stronger than ever. Releasing the .map files for the game also helped I think.



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Old 12-14-2001, 09:25 AM   #27
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Such Blashphemy!

Quote:
Jedi Knight ... Frankly, it was not that great of a game.
Blasphemy!! Especially on this board!

But seriously, I agree your points, GB, and I hope LEC/Raven recognize the obvious, tremendous replay value they add to Jedi Outcast when including a form of JORadiant. Legions of fans are looking forward to creating unique mods, skins, models, adventures, all kinds of Star Wars content.

I am not 100% certain what causes Raven/LEC to hesitate to tell us whether or not an editor will ship. Presumably the LEC/LucasLicensing legal team, ever mindful of control over license, is hemming and hawing over this issue. Perhaps the hesitation is based on reluctance to give us dissapointing news? Hopefully not.


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

Winston Churchill, 1941.
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