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Old 06-02-2001, 03:44 PM   #1
Ki-Adi-Mundi
 
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Lightbulb What To Expect?

This question is probably a little early, but I'll go ahead and ask it.

What do you think that we can expect as an editor for jk2? And what is the standard program for Quake III editing? I don't really know much about the game, I don't even have the game. I might have to go out and buy a new video card and Quake III so I can have some sort of feel for JK2 and what the editing process might be like.

Anyway, Free Fan made program, or something to come with the game?

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Old 06-02-2001, 04:20 PM   #2
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Well, expect Quake like editing, if you've ever done anything like that. I personally never got round to making maps for Jedi Knight, but I presume that was reasonably similar to Quake in as much as basic 3D mapping is concerned.

Quake is based on brush geometry, where you build a level using brushes in a imaginary vaccum, creating rooms from six brushes. This is quite different from Unreal editing if you've ever tried it, where you're working with constructive solid geometry, and you "hollow" a level out.

JD will be using the Quake method. Raven will be creating their own level editor in the same way they did for Elite Force. It will be based on QERadient, most likely with the Team Arena functions for terrain, as well as their own additions. If you want to get used to JKII editing now, the best advice is to go and play with Q3.

If you've only dabbled in Q2 or earlier editing (excluding Doom/Dark Forces) then you'll have to get used to both the ideas of curved surfaces, and shaders, both innovations of the Q3 engine. Curved surfaces you'll probably heard a lot about, and will likely be used quite abudently in JKII. Shaders give special effects to brushes, for instance metalic looking, reflecting surfaces... Also something you'll need to get used to .

As for the time of release, you'll be able to use Q3Radient now to work on your maps, and import it into JKRadient as soon as it gets released, most likely either in the CD, or about a week or two later.

[ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: Archie ]
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Old 06-02-2001, 07:15 PM   #3
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Yes, if this was a normal game I'd expect JK Radiant to get released. But from what I've seen of the general LEC policy on editing their games, they won't be allowed to release JK Radiant. I imagine they will help out anyone who is trying to create a plugin to do editing in GTK Radiant for the game, but I doubt they can just hand out the editor.

It took about 4-5 months for an editor for JK to be released. But since most of the current JK people don't do Quake editing I would imagine it will take awhile while they get used to the new system and can create an editor--so probably about the same length of time.
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Old 06-02-2001, 07:55 PM   #4
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Well, it's my own fault I've never edited any of those games. But that won't keep me from editing jk2. I'm going to buy Quake III sometime before jk2 comes out just so I can learn to edit it some. Or, I might be able to borrow a friend's copy for the same purpose. But first I'd have to get used to the way it plays.

About what file size is the average fan made level in Quake III?

Oh, I once tried to edit Half-Life. After using JED for Jedi Knight, I was just slightly discouraged (can't you just hear the sarcasm dripping? ).

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Old 06-02-2001, 09:12 PM   #5
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It'll probably be alot like quake 3 editing, it should be cool


Life sucks. Guns don't kill people, bullets do. Size doesn't matter, it just helps. Jedi Knight 2 will kick major arse.
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Old 06-02-2001, 10:47 PM   #6
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I think somewhere a Raven guy said that EF had 40% Q3 engine, and I dont know what is EF editing like, but I wouldnt expect editing JO being just like editing Q3
About an official edotir, I dont think they will be.When they announced BG they said inmediatly that it would have editor, and they havent said anything about JO
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Old 06-02-2001, 10:52 PM   #7
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IF you're smart You'll just build the map using Q3 then convert it to work with Jk2.


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Old 06-02-2001, 11:48 PM   #8
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The basic editing tool for Q3 games is Q3Radiant.

QERadiant is another popular editor for Quake3.

Elite Force uses EFRadiant.

I would expect a JORadiant to be released for Jedi Outcast, if we're lucky.

It would take at least some effort by Raven to actually remove the ability to edit Jedi Outcast files with Radiant, as they are based on Q3 tech.

In preparation for Jedi Knight II : Jedi Outcast, I've started a thread to document existing links to internet resources for Radiant, the Quake3 technology editor and supporting resources. I've posted links to a number of introductory tutorials which are quite useful in getting up to speed with Radiant.

Please post links to tutorials, supporting documentation, FAQs, tools, and examples for how to use Radiant, for any Quake3 technology based game, such as Quake3, Elite Force, etc on the thread.

[ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]


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Old 06-03-2001, 12:35 AM   #9
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Question

I'll go ahead and ask the Raven Development team and LEC point blank: Will Jedi Outcast ship with Radiant editing tools? If not, the second question is can end users create their own Jedi Outcast levels using their own tools?

It will save us all a lot of time and effort if we can find out now what the plan is.

For instance if Jedi Outcast will ship with Radiant, then the time spent learning EFRadiant or Q3Radiant is time well spent.

If not, and if end-users won't be legally able to edit and create their own Jedi Outcast maps with their own tools then we're wasting our time trying to learn Radiant.

So, how about it devteam and LEC? What is the plan?


Wilhuf

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Old 06-03-2001, 12:58 AM   #10
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I doubt they would go so far as to try to remove the ability to edit it. From what I understand--LEC got the guy who made the WDFuse editor for Dark Forces (which was a very unfriendly to edit game) to make a system that would be easy to reverse engineer so that end users could make an editing program and change all sorts of things. Because of their agreement with Lucasfilm to use the SW license they couldn't release official tools. But they did make an effort to make it useable. Hell they could have encrypted everything if they wanted.
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Old 06-03-2001, 01:01 AM   #11
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It's really too early to ask them those sorts of questions. They are busy building the game. From my experience Radiant is a fun and powerful level editor. Anybody who is really into level editing won't feel its a waste of time to learn to edit the Q3 engine since the id family of engines has reigned supreme for years.
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Old 06-03-2001, 02:57 AM   #12
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I'm into level editing, and I don't think it's premature at all to ask this question.

It wouldn't be worth my time to learn Radiant if Jedi Outcast won't ship with Radiant.


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

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Old 06-03-2001, 04:45 AM   #13
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Sorry to sound like I didn't mean you weren't into levels. I knew from the info you posted before that you knew what you were talking about.

Quake 3 engine is currently the most powerful engine available to edit. The tools for the Quake engines are much more advanced than what you find for Jedi Knight. I did a lot of Jedi Knight editing. I don't know, something like 2.5 years or so of pretty intense work. But when I switched over to HL I was amazed at how much better the tools were. Much faster to build anything, and it was much easier to get your vision accross. So abstractly as someone interested in making levels for the sheer joy of making levels you pretty much need to build in the Quake 3 engine or LithTech. But if you want to make stories involving Jedi Knights or whatever and don't feel like going to the trouble of making a full blown mod to get the weapons and textures into the level, than yes editing in Jedi Knight is still a good thing.

The people at LEC and Raven get a lot of e-mails. Particularly since they just announced the game and it seems to be one of the more popular things to come out of E3 despite the fact that very few people got to see it. Anyhow, I'm just trying to say-Let them do their work. Don't fire off e-mails whenever you have a small question about something. A new level editor will only take a few weeks to master if you are already experienced. You just have to learn what the differneces in the engine and the controls are. The basic principles of level construction that took so long to learn when you first started don't need to be relearned. We'll have a clear idea of what's going on at launch due to their own press releases in plenty of time to learn the editor if needed.
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Old 06-03-2001, 05:15 AM   #14
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Basically you should get used to Radient as the map format is likely to be *exactly* the same, save for a different set (read: monstar's!).

It's so compatible that whenever you make a level for any other Q3 engined game it's as easy as just changing all the entity's round, and possibly changing textures, then recompiling.

If any level editing is to occur, it will be through some version of radient...

[ June 03, 2001: Message edited by: Archie ]
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Old 06-03-2001, 12:30 PM   #15
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Jedi_Killer I don't consider this a trivial question. As you've implied, having decent editing tools available clearly makes a big difference to the user editing community.

While it's true that picking up a level editor such as Radiant or UnrealEd may only take a few weeks, it takes months to master. And level and mod development can take months.

I've already forwarded this question to the LEC website. We'll see whether they are really too busy to be bothered with this question.


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

Winston Churchill, 1941.
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Old 06-03-2001, 01:26 PM   #16
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Thanks for all the responses everyone! This has really helped me out. Especially your links and stuff Wiluf.

I'm going to borrow my friend's copy of Quake 3 (he doesn't have it installed so it's not illegal) and try to learn Q3Radiant.

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Old 06-03-2001, 03:44 PM   #17
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I think we'll get something simular to JED, the editor designed for JK: DF2 from The Code Alliance.

[ June 03, 2001: Message edited by: Johck Akpen ]


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Old 06-03-2001, 05:31 PM   #18
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With respect, don't expect something anything like previous Jedi Knight level tools, it'll be totally different.
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Old 06-03-2001, 07:32 PM   #19
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Something like JED for JO? Yeah right man. Jed is very simple and limited compared to other editing utilities to other games like Half-Life and Quake III.

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Old 06-03-2001, 07:53 PM   #20
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If LEC dosn't allow editing of JK2 wouldn't it be fairly easy to make a plugin for Q3radiant or somthin? and just use it as the editor?
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Old 06-03-2001, 08:21 PM   #21
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Red--Yeah you can make a plugin. I'm not sure how difficult that is but I don't think its all that bad.

Radiant in one form or another will be what is used to edit JK2. Whether the editor is an official one or one maintained by the community seems to be the issue at hand.

And Wiluf--no you can build with the radiant editor within an hour. You should be fully versed in its use within a couple of weeks.
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Old 06-03-2001, 08:31 PM   #22
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What are you basing that assumption off of Jedi_Killer?

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Old 06-03-2001, 09:07 PM   #23
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Presumably based on his own experience.

...It took me a few hours just to find the correct path referencing and BSP compilation arguments documentation in order to properly configure EFRadiant.

Although it's been reasonbly smooth sailing so far. Will I be a master of EFRadiant in a few weeks? We'll see. I hope so, of course. But, more to the point, I hope it's worth my time so I can actually use Radiant for developing JKO levels.

I'd guess a plugin could be compiled for QE or Q3Radiant. The other question of course is can we legally produce content for JKO?

As an aside, I don't like the sound options on EFRadiant. They seem very limited compared with UnrealEd. Doesn't seem to be a way to specify audible distance and decay functions.


Wilhuf

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

Winston Churchill, 1941.
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Old 06-03-2001, 09:14 PM   #24
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No one can FULLY STOP you from editing a game. Cracking code isn't the hardest thing to do now days and as far as level editing, If they want the game to last more than 2 mths, they will allow level editing.


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Old 06-03-2001, 11:37 PM   #25
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Wilhuf was referring to the legal issues that might come up with distributing new levels rather than the difficulty of deciphering the level format if it is not similar to Q3's. Even if it is incredibly easy to design new levels for the gane, LEC could say that distribution of third party content is not allowed, which would pretty much screw over the entire editing community.

Honestly, I doubt it would happen, and I'm not even sure if LEC really could legally deny gamers the right to develop new content for the game (I'm planning on doing a bit of legal research about that; any information would be appreciated), but it probably still is possible. Asking LEC questions about this stuff now is the best idea. It's better to know now if/how the levels can be edited, considering many people are planning on preparing for JO by taking up Q3 editing.
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Old 06-04-2001, 11:09 AM   #26
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I just hope we get to edit this game...LEC would be stupid not to let us. JK still lives boldly, and the attendance is still very high at the Zone, and some of the other places.


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Old 06-04-2001, 03:35 PM   #27
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I'm one of those very people who is taking up Quake III editing for Jk2:JO. Yes, LEC would be very stupid.

I'm actually learning how right now. Thanks Wiluf.

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Old 06-14-2001, 08:13 PM   #28
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I would say its pretty certain that LEC will allow editing.. as someone else already pointed out, its going to prolong the life of the game... and hell, all us frustrated starwars fans who have been disapointed by recent events (eg. crap starwars games and the shelving of obi-wan for Pc) are dying to get our teeth into a decent starwars game and expand on the universe.

As for the editing, i would recommend practicing making Q3 levels now... even if the editor does differ i should imagine it will only be slightly. The real problem in the editing is actually making something good.. there are lots of crap new levels out there for quake/jedi/unreal etc... it takes a bit of thought and experience to make a good map! best start mapping away now.. by the time JO comes out you should have come up with some nice ideas.
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Old 06-14-2001, 08:23 PM   #29
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HI, by the way. I rated u 5 stars cause your from the UK. Nice first post! I totally agree with what your saying!


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