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Old 03-01-2002, 03:10 AM   #1
WD_ToRMeNt
 
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Hmm What the Leaked info DIDN'T tell us about force powers...

There is no mention of mana cost, intresting. That would have been nice so we could at least begin to gage what we can and can not do, such as having speed or absorb on all the time.

It looks like aborb will prolly block pull. I guess that means I'll be going light on servers that arn't saber only.
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Old 03-01-2002, 05:02 AM   #2
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<font color=cbcbff> Actually, it says that push counters grip and pull attacks, but it doesn't say anything about absorb countering pull. It would only be logical I suppose that they have some way to block pull from working on your weapon. It would be hard to defend your gun with force push. I don't know why they'd have left it out of Absorb's description though. This game is fixing all of the "1337" balance bugs etc. that plagued the first one. I love this more every day.
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Old 03-01-2002, 09:13 AM   #3
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Absorb only absorbs damage done by force powers. It does not counter the force powers. Pull doesn't do any damage directly, so it isn't absorbed.
As for people pulling away your weapon... just pull it back.


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Old 03-01-2002, 09:52 AM   #4
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This wasn't official, so be glad Obi even found it and posted it.
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Old 03-01-2002, 08:44 PM   #5
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You've missed the point completely. The cost of force powers in mana vs the rate at which mana is regained will be a central part of force dynamics. It will be central to devoloping tatics, esp since the leaked info makes no mention of force surges or boosts.
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Old 03-01-2002, 09:14 PM   #6
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exactly
If there are no surges gameplay will change A LOT
getting the surge was the most important thing to do in FF games
They also dont say how many force points does each power at each level need, and how many points will be the max available
With that info we could start planning our MP configurations already
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Old 03-01-2002, 09:24 PM   #7
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I feel, from what I've heard and seen from reviews, that LEC and Raven have really done a good job in making sure the Force Powers of Light and Dark Siders are balanced. I think we can trust that the distribution of Force Points for Force Powers will also compliment the balance. They probably have taken into consideration that ppl could just want to leave the Force Speed on all the time and figured that wouldn't be balanced in a fight. If there aren't Force Surges ingame, that will bring some comfort to those who don't abuse the Force and those who really like to be able to play a FF game but don't want over use of the Force.


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Old 03-01-2002, 09:26 PM   #8
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Hmm.. but I dunno.. I'm taking the "Episode II" aproach here.. I'm going to start with this game as uninformed as possible. The lesser I know the better.. if I already know when, what and how everything will happen and work I'll have lost most of my excitement by the time I get to play the game.
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Old 03-01-2002, 09:36 PM   #9
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Originally posted by Walker of Sky
...that will bring some comfort to those who don't abuse the Force and those who really like to be able to play a FF game but don't want over use of the Force.
What's with you? JK is a game, and people play to win. There is no such thing as over using something that makes you win. If you can't take it, don't play in games that are high force.
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Old 03-01-2002, 09:39 PM   #10
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Im taking that aproach to Ep2, but It will be difficult with it being released here on July

Walker of Sky, I dont want to sound like one of those 1337, but the surges made FF something amazing, when you were using it and when you were fighting against someone with a surge, that was something that really demanded skill. You had to be really fast both with your mind and with your fingers to counter him

using the saber and sometimes about 5 powers at the same time is one of the most exciting MP experiences, not allowing you to do this now would really dumb down the game as some people has mentioned when talking about speed
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Old 03-01-2002, 09:43 PM   #11
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Well, ppl don't play in a game to get blow out either, especially if it's their own game their hosting. What I'm just saying is that the surge can encourage over-use of the Force and might tip the balance in Force Powers. And personally, I don't enjoy being choked nonstop or being shot @ w/ big balls of flames by another player. It doesn't really take that much skill to do all that. I'm not saying all FF players do that, but occasionally I stumble over a few now and then, if everyone took the approach ur talking about digl, the one with the player just needing to be quick on his feet, then I wouldn't mind have Surges.


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Old 03-01-2002, 09:49 PM   #12
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I dont have problems against people using grip and destruction all the time
It is a greter challenge to kill them
It depends on the skill of the person you are playing against, If you are both similar skill there is no problem, but If you are playing against someone with a much higher skill of course he would wipe you out, using a surge or not
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Old 03-01-2002, 09:55 PM   #13
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I feel the same way, it really depends on the other player, but I've had too many experiences where it's no fun when every corner u turn u find someone there to choke u. I hear where ur coming from.....


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Old 03-01-2002, 10:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
would have been nice so we could at least begin to gage what we can and can not do, such as having speed or absorb on all the time.
You'll probably have to play the actual game or demo to do that.


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Old 03-01-2002, 10:31 PM   #15
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What's with you? JK is a game, and people play to win. There is no such thing as over using something that makes you win. If you can't take it, don't play in games that are high force.
I don't play to win, I play to have fun. I like to play with my friends and laugh when we force push eachother off ledges. You see I don't enjoy playing Q3 or UT because all you do is kill kill kill and it's not very fun after you frag someone for the 100th time with a missle launcher. I'd rather play RtCW and laugh when I die a medic comes to heal me but then an enemy throws a grenade and the Medic and I explode lol!!!!

I enjoy games that are comical and fairly humerous....not games that are enormously repetetive

that's just my 2 imperial credits
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Old 03-01-2002, 10:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt


What's with you? JK is a game, and people play to win. There is no such thing as over using something that makes you win. If you can't take it, don't play in games that are high force.
thats not true. a game imbalance even if it is in the game and the developers dont patch it out is a BAD THING. Just because thats what you have to do to win doesnt mean using it over n over is fun, skillfull, or 'l33t'. Its just what you have to do to compete.

now if you take cheese tactics away, slow the game down slightly (jk2 will still be alot faster than pretty much anything out right now what with the "rea;ism" bug everyone seems to have caught) and include a way to play 'paper rock scissors' with the force powers you have a much more tactically pleasing game. Where alot out speed isnt going to play the biggest factor.

in jk1 the guns werent balanced AT ALL. Light jedis had a major advantage because they could just cheese pull dark jedis all day long. the game wasnt balanced. With the inclusion of saber throw as the secondary attack for everyone (presumably without using force this time) i think dark jedis will have an equal ability to kill. unlike jk1 where a kick ass light sider would smoke a darksider everytime. just pull pull pull.


i loved the game and plyed it for almost 3 years. but that doesnt mean i think it was perfect.
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Old 03-01-2002, 11:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wilhuf


You'll probably have to play the actual game or demo to do that.
That would help, but just looking at numbers on a screen can give us ideas. Like if Absorb costs 50 mana to use (out of 100) and lasted 30 seconds but you only regained 20 mana per minute vs. if you regained mana at 50+ units/min. That differance would be huge, and that kind of info would help me figure out combos and tatics quicker.
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Old 03-02-2002, 01:24 AM   #18
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I agree with Belgarion, I play to have fun. If you buy a game and think, "im gonna go online with this and pwn some n00bs" you're kinda missing the point of games. Games are for fun, if I wanted to play to win I would join the CPL. People like Torment here can get really annoying online, using cheap tactics so that they can prove to themselves (and only themselves, who do you think you are impressing?) that they are the best.

I just remembered an example of how playing to win can get in the wayu of playing to have fun.
I had been playing CS all day and (like most games) it began to get repetitive, so some of the people in the game decided it would be FUN to play a round of knives only. Sounds fun right? Well someone on the other team thought he could get easy kills if he bought a rifle. Bullets + Knife = Not fun.


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Old 03-02-2002, 01:32 AM   #19
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Originally posted by digl
Im taking that aproach to Ep2, but It will be difficult with it being released here on July

Walker of Sky, I dont want to sound like one of those 1337, but the surges made FF something amazing, when you were using it and when you were fighting against someone with a surge, that was something that really demanded skill. You had to be really fast both with your mind and with your fingers to counter him

using the saber and sometimes about 5 powers at the same time is one of the most exciting MP experiences, not allowing you to do this now would really dumb down the game as some people has mentioned when talking about speed
Hehe be careful or I might have to start respecting you as a player hehe. No offense meant bro, it's nice to see some one else who gets it.
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Old 03-02-2002, 02:12 AM   #20
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I liked Force surges. They were lotsa fun. But they lasted too long, so they were kinda cheap...a ten or fifteen second surge would have been better IMHO for JK2...too bad they aren't including it

As for the people who thinks JK2 should be a JK clone....I'm so glad you aren't the developers. :rolleyess


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Old 03-02-2002, 02:33 AM   #21
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<font color=cbcbff> Torment, I'm honestly really not trying to attack you or make you look bad here. But why can't you just accept that the force has changed and this will be a much different game than the first one. I've never seen so many complaint threads about the same thing posted at once in the same forum. Except of course for IndianaJones9's ...brilliant display of forum complaining when "no one would send him the scans." But you are up at a close second.

I understand that you are concerned about the force from a strategic viewpoint. That's awesome. It proves that you are as jazzed about the game as the rest of us. You just seem to be in denial. That's all.
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Old 03-02-2002, 11:46 AM   #22
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Originally posted by Redwing
I liked Force surges. They were lotsa fun. But they lasted too long, so they were kinda cheap...a ten or fifteen second surge would have been better IMHO for JK2...too bad they aren't including it
We dont know yet If there are surges or something similar
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Old 03-02-2002, 04:19 PM   #23
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<font color=cbcbff> For one thing, Broode, again, you rock.

For another thing, it appears to me that Raven's general aim when balancing things in this game is to find every cheap tactic that they could and eliminate it.

Without surges, there can be no camping.

Without a weapon that is singly more powerful than all others in every way, it will encourage variety.

They appear to have superbly balanced the force powers so that everything can be countered.

A jedi is no longer a sitting duck against a gunner, mostly because of the improved lightsaber blocking and the incredibly versatile force push. Force push deflects missles, thermal detonators, counters grip etc. It's going to be huge in MP battles.

Torment, I think you will find that this game is not only different than Jedi Knight, but it will be funner too. You speak of liking competition. With as few cheesy tactics as possible, it increases the amount of strategies that can be used dramatically. Instead of camping surges, cheaping on force powers and hogging the biggest cannon in the game, every weapon will be useful, every force power(except mind trick again) will have it's use and both sides of the force will have a chance in FF duels(saber only). These things increase not only the fun, but the skill required to compete effectively without just relying on your connection or how fast you can jerk your mouse. I think you are going to be choking on these words because if what you say is true, this is a game that you will love. Because it has everything you say you want, and much moreso than Jedi Knight. Jedi Knight was an excellent game, but it had many downfalls in balance that have been carefully considered and wisely eliminated in the next installment in the series.

We've all underestimated Raven Software and I don't think I'm the only one that believes that they are truly masters at what they do. I think this game will prove that.

(The lightbat thing is still annoying though)
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Old 03-04-2002, 10:06 AM   #24
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theres no problem just playing the game for fun but some ppl are competitive and like to win its just 2 different game views criticizing either one is equally lame the day jk stopped being fun was the day i quit playing and just chat whored so i guess im from both point of views
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Old 03-04-2002, 10:09 AM   #25
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the only imbalance in powers was in ff sabers where light blew but a good lighty could take on a dark it just wasnt that common but in guns light was just as equal as dark as for cheesy tactics there really wasnt a lot of those camping the surge? anybody could do that with timing and skill most of what ppl call cheesy tactics are things they couldnt/wouldnt learn except in nf sabers that will always remain lame
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Old 03-04-2002, 10:51 AM   #26
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I don't really see the conflict in terms of 'good game' versus 'competitive game'. Sure there are times when it's really annoying to be cheaped (force protect on canyon oasis anyone) but it just forces you to be inventive (force pull followed by punching the cheesey goit 'till he dropped in the above example).

That aside one thing I'm really looking forwards to is sabre fighting, which looks much more involved than the previous incarnation. As for not finding out about mana costs vs mana recharge, part of the fun of multiplayer was working out what you could and couldn't get away with (killing someone outright was possible with grip at 4 stars but not 3 for example, something which cost me a few times discovering!)

As for force pull being annoying it worked both ways and if the light siders had absorb on they didn't have protect and either died from a jumping double-slash or just evened things up (if they had a sabre out to begin with).


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Old 03-04-2002, 11:41 AM   #27
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The competitive thing with JK could be fun from time to time, sure everyone wants to be good, becuase you can stand up to someone, like a elite vs a elite, thats fun becus both of them know how to use certain tactics, wich made the game more fun for them,

But for the Noob's things were sucky, i mean a Noob starts to try different tactics when hes pounded to death time and time again (at least i did that when i first started ) but to be honest, JK I didn't allow such tactics, now i hope that JK II does allow those tactics.

But to give my oppinion on FUN or COMPETITION, i'de rather play for fun with some guys and each of us does fancy movements and stuff, then play for the points only, cus in my oppinion games like JK aren't all about that.

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Old 03-04-2002, 11:46 AM   #28
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One thing I'll throw in (and this isn't meant to be a flame by any means) is that in spite of how "cheap" some people may make JK out to be, I know of hundreds of people who had countless hours of fun with it just the same....
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Old 03-04-2002, 03:13 PM   #29
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if you hosted a ff game, the most effecient way to win was what torm keeps expounding on.

If you knock the force down to like level 6 or less, then the other powers became more important.

JK wasn't cheap, it was just polarized. The multiple force settings let you customize yer game fairly easily. If you didn't like destruction, then just knock the lvl down. You could keep knocking it down until you found a level you enjoyed playing at.

Nobody did that online, because the extremes were more popular. NF, FF etc.

Anything in the game=can't be cheap, its just how it is. If you want to play the game differently then consider different settings and you might find you enjoy it more.

You might consider things unbalanced, but JK is fairly uncheap at all force levels, its really brilliant. When yer just starting out its easy to get stomped tho, cause all you need are a few tricks to really outclass someone who's just figuring it out.

One thing it isn't is easy. I've spent 4 years playing this game and I still find it challenging.

I'd like to see elements of JK preserved in JK0, but i don't want the same game. I just want to see some of the better shiz preserved and taken to a new level. Lookit Diablo vs Diablo2. Diablo2 is a heck of a lot more complex, but a lot of the major dynamics in its predecessor are present.

As for what we're missing with the new info, torm's right. Mana cost is the only element we need to start to figure out how the game is balanced. You could go watch the video a few times and get a rough idea of what they were doing with it in a few instances, however that video was prolly taken before they started really fine tuning the balance.

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