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Old 03-13-2002, 09:01 PM   #1
bostonjedi
 
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JK2 MP Gone South?

After viewing that trailer I definetly feel that using the q3 engine will turn JK2 MP into guns based play like UT or Quake, whereas in Jedi Knight we had a split crowd...I think saber battles are headed down the tubes. Jedi Knight had a science to it with sabering, jk2 with all the new acrobatics and sh*t kinda takes away from taking saber battling seriously. That isn't good IMO...


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Old 03-13-2002, 09:07 PM   #2
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Don't like guns, then join a server that only holds lightsaber battles - there will be many, trust me.


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Old 03-13-2002, 09:08 PM   #3
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OH, come ON. Did you see those sabers, or did you refuse to?


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Old 03-13-2002, 09:08 PM   #4
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you are entitled to your opinion of course, but I do not agree. I saw a good balance between saber and guns, and I will definately be using the saber more than any other weapon~
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Old 03-13-2002, 09:10 PM   #5
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I just definetly think JK2 is alot more catered towards guns than Jedi Knight was, and i think it will have a serious impact on the type of game it evolves too. Can you really imagine having a serious saber match with all those acrobatics and crap?


"don't f*ck with a jedi master son"
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Old 03-13-2002, 09:10 PM   #6
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hey hey hey, wait a minute. your tell me you want to go back to teh 2 differnt swings pratically that everyone used in JK over new dodges and attacks. I mean, i would MUCH rather have Movie style gameplay then what JK has. Yeah JK was good when it came out, but lets get the new generation of Saber Fighting in and play. Plus, all guns???? I didn't see ALL guns in the trailer. Looked to me that there were PLENTY of saberists in the trailer. Anyways, don't go putting something down BEFORE its released. Once its releasd then say something like that but NOT before. It gets PEOPLEs hopes DOWN!!! <sorry but i just get steamed when games get put down before they are even released>

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Old 03-13-2002, 09:12 PM   #7
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Dude, you are describing the awesome things about JO as stupid things.

My lord.

Go watch a old 50's movie.


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Old 03-13-2002, 09:12 PM   #8
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I think the MP looks awesome!! I believe the acrobatics add a more strategic value to the game. I know the wall-walking thing is manual but I'm not sure about the flips in the air. The new trailer makes me want it more now but either way...we should reserve judgment until we actually play the game!!


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Old 03-13-2002, 09:20 PM   #9
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I sure hope its not going south, cause i'm up here in New York and that would suck for me.
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Old 03-13-2002, 09:44 PM   #10
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At the very end of the trailer i just got a Quake3 feeling by looking at the movement or something...something about it just seemed like a "kill the guy and steal his quad damage" sorta feeling. I'm not saying that's a bad thing...it's actually kinda cool. It seems like movement is about the same as Q3, and the game seems quite fast-paced, almost TOO fast-paced...but i guess it'll be different when it's fluently moving about on my screen and i'm actually killing people with the saber, instead of watching a 640x480 trailer that skips frames and doesn't show the full beauty of the games fluidity

EDIT: After watching the trailer again, i get even MORE of a Q3 feeling with the "2 kills left" thing...heh. Is that Queen Amidala announcing things? If so...um, WHY? Shouldn't she be dead or not born at the time of this game?

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Old 03-13-2002, 10:03 PM   #11
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I think it looks too fast paced.

He sets up some mines on the wall, and runs so quickly it doesnt seem that good.....I dont know.

The sabers, well *tear rolls down eye* I love em. Just make a all saber game and your fine. Hopefully we can turn gamespeed down 1/2

Anddd what else. The devs didnt mention alot about skins like Vaders, and so on, because "no, they arent around in this time period".

Booo-urns to that. I want my Dark-Kyle skin with purple saber back!


Oh, and I dont know about the saber hits on people.....its got the Ghoul II system, and devs said chopping off limbs is possible, but I didnt see any of that, and no blood but sparks flying out of peopels bodies is kinda weird. Yeah yeah Lucas does no blood, but come on......something better than the saber sticking in the guys armpit (backstab shot) would be good.

Anyhow, Im buying it, so no biggie. Singleplayer will rock.

Think there will be more stuff when ya put it on hard? In JediKnight, when you put it on medium or hard, more guys appeared, more turrets in new locations, etc. NOT just more damage/accuracy like more games.


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Old 03-13-2002, 10:30 PM   #12
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I got the Quake-'em-up feeling too and have an uneasy feeling about the sabres. I think trying to duel someone on a 'free-for-all' server will get you shot in the back more times than not. But I will definetly head for the sabre only rooms/ servers most of the time. I posted this in another thread:


"I also didn't see to much sabre vs. sabre action. It doesn't seem like you can have an actual duel that would last for more than a few seconds. Maybe it is possible, we just didn't see it. A nice 10+ second duel would really fuel my fire. Someday..."


I think the flips and acrobatics GREATLY add to the sabre play.


HBK

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Old 03-13-2002, 10:39 PM   #13
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As do I, I also think that once servers start hosting the Jedi Duel MP mode and you're up against another human the battles couldn't help but last more than 10 seconds. And if for some reason you manage to kill your opponent in one blow then the next guy will pop out. (Or however that mode is worked) I for one am getting quite giddy about both single and multiplayer, although I will definetly agree that it looks to be about quake III speed. But that's not too suprising to me. (Seeing as how the QIII TA engine is what it was based on.)
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Old 03-13-2002, 10:40 PM   #14
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For everyone worried about the sabre dueling, check out this reply from ChangKhan of RAVEN about the lightsabres:

Saber duels can last some time - you only saw bits of them (of course, the length and pacing of the saber duels depends greatly on how you approach a saber duel and how you use the moves and powers available to you).



Makes me feel alot better


HBK

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Your head lays there by your side"


"Oh people, know that you have commited great sins. If you ask me what proof I have for these words, I say it is because I am the punishment of God. If you had not commited great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you!"
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Old 03-13-2002, 10:42 PM   #15
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Well, from the looks of the trailer I think the game looks great. I've never gotten too much into multiplayer, but as far as it being too fast in this case, I have to say that first off, we're only seeing bits and pieces of multiplayer games and who's too say that the type of speed we see in the trailer will reflect all of the multiplayer battles? Second, the way trailers are edited together can also make people perceive pacing differently. The last thing I have to say is don't judge before you play. It seems some of you are being so picky. Just wait until the game comes out and then complain or be picky.
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Old 03-14-2002, 12:56 AM   #16
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Wink RE: JK2 MP Gone South?

Of course it has! After all, the sniper in the new trailer was none other than Colonel Sanders, founder of Kentucky Fried Chicken. And, as most of us know, Kentucky is one of the Southern states.


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Old 03-14-2002, 01:12 AM   #17
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lol

well anyway, the reason a lot of you are thinking it might be a little to fast paced is maby becasue you are sticking to what qauke3 was like, if you can take examples like moh and rtcw they both had completely different gameplay...no flames please, just an oppinion

and yeah executor you are probably right, but we dont know much about the gameplay yet so you cant realy judge it....we dont know what raven did to the saber handling in the game, could be completely different to what you think...i myself will be sticking to mostly saber play though, jut my style i guess
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Old 03-14-2002, 01:23 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by bostonjedi
Can you really imagine having a serious saber match with all those acrobatics and crap?
Let me guess: the worst part of TPM was the Duel of the Fates, right? Maul, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon simply couldn't have been serious with all those acrobatics and fancy moves they had.



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Old 03-14-2002, 07:01 AM   #19
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How can you think that having flips and rolls and assorted dodging manouvers could be bad for gameplay? I really don't see where your coming from.

Please explain.


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Old 03-14-2002, 07:18 AM   #20
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I'll give you a scenario:

Player A and Player B enter in a Saber only battle.

Player A thrusts at player B, player B Flips right over his head.
Player B thrusts at player A, Player A Flips right over his head.

and this goes on until one of them gets pissed and says "stop it"

In Jedi Knight all you could do was strafe or jump to the side.

I think the sabre battles will lose their serious gameplay side and just become novelty play like "in the movies" and now for some of you who could care less about the serious gaming in the JK community this is great..."movie moves are fun!" but for I, it doesn't look so great.


"don't f*ck with a jedi master son"
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Old 03-14-2002, 07:25 AM   #21
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Umm the way I see it, when the player flips over my head I do a back stab and stab him in his sorry back. It's not like you can't do anything about it. Freedom of movment is not a bad thing. I'm sorry, but just wanting to stand still and hack at eachother until somone forgets to block is stupid. I love the fact I can use my whole surroundings to my advantage. This will rock, and if it's a little more fast paced, fine. I played EF for almost 2 years, I'm used to it. Although I don't think it will be that fast paced. You sound like youd be more happy with JK so you might just want to play that.


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Old 03-14-2002, 07:38 AM   #22
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I disagree BostonJedi. It is DM and if you keep flipping (I feel) you'll never kill your opponent AND you'll just make yourself a target. You'll have to 'make a stand'(stop flipping) to do some damage. Besides, you saw the trailer, if joe schmoe flips behind you, do the bad a$$ reverse stab attack, which = dead flipper. Watch 'em stop flipping over you.

You could also, if someone is flipping around like he should be in the circus, Force Grip him and slam some sense into him. Or, even better, Force Pull him like the stormie in the trailer and show him what a lightsabre is for. Oh I have such visions.

I wouldn't worry about it. I think there will be plenty of folks who will battle it out in your more 'traditional' way and not 'abuse' the flip. And if they do, they'll be easy pickings and (hopefully) learn a lesson so you'll have better duels in the future.


HBK

"When kissed by the sword of Vengeance
Your head lays there by your side"


"Oh people, know that you have commited great sins. If you ask me what proof I have for these words, I say it is because I am the punishment of God. If you had not commited great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you!"
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Last edited by HBK; 03-15-2002 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 03-14-2002, 07:39 AM   #23
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ummm i think flipping (dodging) is what made unreal/unreal tournament so fun, and pretty much all "serious" (and non-serious as well) UT players use dodging all the time, i mean they dodge after dodge (they use it in fights, to get in special places, to move faster etc), they rarely just strafe or jump.. i think it can only be a good thing, especially in melee light saber combat its even more important and much more fun imo...
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Old 03-14-2002, 07:41 AM   #24
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bostonjedi, I don't think that you are giving the game enough credit here. Sure the saber system might take a few hours, or even days to pick up so that you don't look like a total fool in MP. But that's it. It should a have a pretty quick learning curve. Besides, you could always start your own server and like outlaw flips or something. Though why in the world you would want to do that, I don't know. Just give it some time, and you'll pick it up, I'm certain.

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Old 03-14-2002, 08:16 AM   #25
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A "serious saber match" is not just swinging at your opponent with force speed on till he dies. Its about using the environment to your advantage and using all kinds of tricky moves to outwit and outmanouver your opponent. Look at every movie battle. The only thing that stopped it becoming just a parry-fest until someone got tired was the way they used the environment around them. Episode 1 - The bottomless pit, Episode 5 - The thing vader throws at Luke to toss him out the window.

Don't confine your thinking to JK's definition of a "serious saber match".


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Old 03-14-2002, 08:45 AM   #26
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I said in another post, this game is aimed at the Quake/EF comunity more then the old jedi knight comunity. I don't see why you lot are complaining. The MP is going to be a superb aspect of the game. I'd say it's the only game with both a good story line for the single plyayer and a good looking multiplayer thats come out in a while. Just be ahppy with what u are getting .

If you look at the trailer, the 1st multi player scene, the one with the jan model with a pourple/pink light saber, when they use the light saber it comes into cntact with a sheild, which portects the player until it's gone. I would think u'd have to hit someone with full sheilds at least 2-3 times to get some health damage inflicked.
Multi player is going to be a totally different style of play compared to the single player were one saber hit = a kill.

The game is going to be a variety of guns and sabers. if your playing a ctf match and someones running @ u. You have the choice between a saber and a rocket launcher.....what would you pick? I have to say the rocket launcher for me...blow the bugger up rather then risk getting into a heavy saber battle and being killed. Were as in close range the saber would be best. perhaps a saber thro.

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Old 03-14-2002, 08:45 AM   #27
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Hmmm, judging by the trailers it looks like you'll be happy, bostonjedi. It looks like they haven't gotten rid of the run/jump/slash atmosphere that made me hate JK sabers so much.

Seems like I'll have a lot of modding work to do.
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Old 03-14-2002, 09:04 AM   #28
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As a non-MP player, I can, on the one hand, say I don't care.

But as someone who is sure that there'll be bots and plans on getting a broadband connection soon, I think the saber play is going to be fine. For a start, you can use it as a ranged weapon too so there's going to be some skill in that. Coupled with ranged force powers and powerups, it should be quite a laugh.

Can't comment on how it'll compare to JK MP as I never played it.
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Old 03-14-2002, 09:29 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Krak3n
if your playing a ctf match and someones running @ u. You have the choice between a saber and a rocket launcher.....what would you pick?
Saber of course


BTW Fardreamer, just curious, but, why do you seem so convinced that the saber system is going to suck? You havent played yet have ya?


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Old 03-14-2002, 09:36 AM   #30
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(hmm.. many of you complain too easily, wait untill you actually played the game, you're right about now doing just the same as rating a movie, purely based on it's pre-release trailer)
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Old 03-14-2002, 09:46 AM   #31
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It almost looks to me like Raven has included all the types of moves and saber control that the "Blade Purists" from Heretic II wanted.

It the control is similar to, but more advanced than, the H2 staff control, you can expect to see some epic saber duels not despite the acrobatics, but because of the acrobatics. Trust me.


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Old 03-14-2002, 09:53 AM   #32
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That's true, just look at Rurouni Kenshin, that anime features some jaw dropping swordfighting scenes, partially thanks to the amazing acrobatics used in the battles to avoid the opponent's attacks and/or to get the upper hand in the fight, like to surprise the opponent or just get in the right position to perform a winning blow, acrobatics can indeed make a fight all the more impressive.
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Old 03-14-2002, 09:58 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by bostonjedi
I'll give you a scenario:

Player A and Player B enter in a Saber only battle.

Player A thrusts at player B, player B Flips right over his head.
Player B thrusts at player A, Player A Flips right over his head.

and this goes on until one of them gets pissed and says "stop it"

In Jedi Knight all you could do was strafe or jump to the side.

I think the sabre battles will lose their serious gameplay side and just become novelty play like "in the movies" and now for some of you who could care less about the serious gaming in the JK community this is great..."movie moves are fun!" but for I, it doesn't look so great.
Science in Saber battles is boring and predictable. If thats what you like, go for it and you and the 20 other Jedi Knight players can hack it up endlessly using alt fire for your sabers and such.

I believe there will be a limit on acrobatics, so eventually Player B will get tired before A does and A will probably kill B.

Novelty? I doubt it.
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Old 03-14-2002, 10:20 AM   #34
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I'm going to refer to my experience playing blade only in Heretic II here, but I suspect it'll equally apply to saber battles...


There's nothing more satisfying than cutting down a player who thinks leaping around like a ninny during a duel is a) effective or b) amusing.


Here's the thing: The more moves available, the deeper the strategy. The deeper the strategy, the better the duel.

There's no novelty to having acrobatic moves, and force moves, and levels of saber expertise. Those things lend to deeper gameplay, and I'm sorry if you can't recognize that.


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Old 03-14-2002, 10:23 AM   #35
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That reply from ChangKhan really put my mind at ease when it comes to saber duelling. By the way I hope you'll noticed that some clips were from the Death Star map. looks cool.


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Old 03-14-2002, 10:26 AM   #36
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yeah if you say your getting a quake 3 feeling from the game, you probably are......................becuz it was made from quake 3...I mean they showed some gun battles and suddenly the multiplayer is shot, it sucks now! c'mon they kinda HAD to since all they did in the other trailers was show sabers, there will be saber only battles, but sheesh don't be so harsh on a game you haven't even played yet
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Old 03-15-2002, 12:52 AM   #37
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Tomcat, saber duels will be a helluva lot more fun than they were in JK, thanks to the multitude ofmoves and swings. But to really enjoy a saber duel, both participants have to be serious about fighting the right way, otherwise it'll just be too easy to take a swing and then run for cover. Hopefully duel mode will make sure this doesn't happen, but for normal DM it seems as though it'll become the standard once again.

In order to force players to think carfeully about their attacks and parries and actually fight in a patient manner would require certain conditions to be met, which I've stated many times in other threads and I won't mention again.

But in spite of my b****in' you can be sure I'll spend many hours online hacking around with the cool moves
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Old 03-15-2002, 01:24 AM   #38
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OK, I just -HAD- to reply to this one hehe (and sorry if my post is basically a repeat of someone else's response). Here goes:

How can you honestly say that the original JK had a SCIENCE to sabering?!?!? That has got to be the weirdest response to JK sabering I have ever heard, truly.

JK1 Sabering Scenario:

Run up and secondary swing opponant
He blocks
He Secondary swings at you
You block
You strafe around and secondary swing
He gets hit
You keep strafing around and swinging and he APPEARS to be getting hit many many times
He doesn't die..
He jumps OVER you without you knowing (due to disturbing and old multiplayer coding)
He swings at your back instantly when you are still realizing where the hell he went..
You die...

Conclusion? If JK1 sabering was a science, that science is LUCK of the swing and knowing how to work with lag while staring at the same saber animations over and over. You call that serious saber fighting?

I think it would be pretty damn serious if you had a plethra of acrobatics as well as more than 2 slices under your control. Adding to that, wouldn't it be serious if you didn't know how to use those moves correctly while the oponent did? That would surely keep you on your toes during a battle.

I can already imagine my heart racing as the opponent and I are low health and in a break.. when suddenly, we charge eachother, locking sabers a moment, then force pushing each other away, followed by ground rolls/flips - struggling for survival, I spin around and blindly throw my saber at the opponant, realizing his back had been turned at that very moment as he falls <drool> These elements will definitly add LENGTH to saber fights, which is what most of us have always wanted, not just a 1 slice kill.

How can you think JK2 saber dueling will be constant flipping without anyone winning? If you watch that trailer you will notice force power goes down as he was flipping and such - and who's to say you could not realize his/her style and spin around, slicing his/her back as she flipped? You think they will suddenly become invulnerable? Hmmmm

Now, we all haven't played the game yet.. but Raven is not stupid.. they KNOW how much this game is anticipated and from what it seems, this game is pretty much perfect in every way. It is exactly what we all been wanting - for the most part. So keep that in mind


"The Force is strong with this one.."
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Old 03-15-2002, 01:30 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vrelic

JK1 Sabering Scenario:

Run up and secondary swing opponant
He blocks
He Secondary swings at you
You block
You strafe around and secondary swing
He gets hit
You keep strafing around and swinging and he APPEARS to be getting hit many many times
He doesn't die..
He jumps OVER you without you knowing (due to disturbing and old multiplayer coding)
He swings at your back instantly when you are still realizing where the hell he went..
You die...
This scenario only applies to a no-lag (LAN) game.

On the Zone it's a bit different...

Run up to the guy and swing around him with secondary fire
He gets hit
He rushes you with primary fire
You get hit
You jump over him and you HEARD your lightsaber hits him...
He got no damage
...etc

Jedi Knight is really fun when it comes to LAN parties Especially when your friends are newbies (sequencer charges vs. concussion rifle)


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Old 03-15-2002, 01:38 AM   #40
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Hehe, actually what I described is what I experienced on the zone =)

If it was a LAN party there is no real lag at all, hehe.. but yea your scenario is also true on the zone


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