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Old 03-18-2002, 10:26 PM   #1
LilRed
 
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Thumbs up New Great Saber Idea

I think they should have put the idea of having one button to push on the key-bored to block gun blasts and saber blocks and having a time limmit like in the Max Payne bullet time. And then A saber block after the time runs out doesn't apply. Or A heat meater on the lightsaber that would block say A 15 times in a row before getting to hot to block more lazers. Releasing the button on the key-bored will automaticly let the heat off. I think A mod or somthing simerler should take up on something like this. Sorry for my not awarness on mods but I think this might work. hehe.
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Old 03-18-2002, 10:50 PM   #2
Ulic Quel Droma
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Thumbs down

I think thats an utter crud idea sorry


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Old 03-18-2002, 10:55 PM   #3
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I don't want to be rude but...............

HEIIIIIIIII..........!!!!!!!

Wrong answer.

I don't think it would be a so good idea. The system that was in place in JK was good to me.


"When we will see each other on the battlefield I won't be so easy on you like I am now"
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Old 03-18-2002, 11:07 PM   #4
ChangKhan[RAVEN]
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That was a bit rude... the idea may have some merit, you really don't know until you try it.


Michael Chang Gummelt
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Old 03-18-2002, 11:11 PM   #5
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ya, and then you can't block forever
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Old 03-18-2002, 11:19 PM   #6
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Sorry again. I didn't mean to .......... well ya know.

If we play together I'll let you win ( just joking) : )


"When we will see each other on the battlefield I won't be so easy on you like I am now"
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Old 03-18-2002, 11:48 PM   #7
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Angry

I was just saying that it would be nice if you couldn't block all the time. It's just to easy! But I guess it was ment to be like that. It would be cool if they made it a little more complex in multiplayer than in the single though. man! Just because I'm new to the forums doesn't me you can just shove MEEN answers up my Ass. Thanks for backin me some of you!
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Old 03-18-2002, 11:53 PM   #8
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I think a block button, that you can't hold for too long, is a great idea.

You guys all complain about how the JK saber system wasn't complex enough, and too easy to block...well....(!!) this is the perfect solution; it would add that in-demand complexity, AND...(though this may not necessarily be an "up" for some of you..) it would require SKILL...

Anyway...don't want to sound like I'm trying to suck up to the Raven guy, it's just my opinion.

-TIE
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Old 03-18-2002, 11:54 PM   #9
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I'm really sorry. I mean it. What do I have to do to make it real ?

I must admit it, what I said was dump. I wouldn't like that someone write to me. I'm new too, I just wish we could work things out.


"When we will see each other on the battlefield I won't be so easy on you like I am now"
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Old 03-19-2002, 12:04 AM   #10
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how bout a "stamina" like system

the more u hit/block the lower it goes, when it runs out u cant hit/block anymore
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Old 03-19-2002, 12:07 AM   #11
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I like the stamina thing. It could bring a strategic phase in lightsabers combat. You can't always attack cuz you'll end up with no more stamina so then, you're dead.


"When we will see each other on the battlefield I won't be so easy on you like I am now"
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Old 03-19-2002, 12:15 AM   #12
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what did the raven guy say about light saber action? I never sough it
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Old 03-19-2002, 12:17 AM   #13
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i think we should just wait and see what it is like. to me the lightsaber system sounds sucessful. i hope it is as successful as i hope....... which i am hoping to hope for to hope that the light saber system is........ what i hope it will be...... which is good.....i hope.
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Old 03-19-2002, 12:19 AM   #14
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Seams that some of you want this new awsome game to act to much like the the old {JK} I want more than just simple manoovers
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Old 03-19-2002, 12:40 AM   #15
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Here here.

And I'm pretty sure that's what we're getting.

-TIE
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Old 03-19-2002, 12:48 AM   #16
Ulic Quel Droma
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that would just be stupid IMO, i mean thats what makes TPM and JPB games boring, in the movies a jedi could block as many hits as he wants without worrying about a saber over heating


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Old 03-19-2002, 12:49 AM   #17
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I think an 'active' blocking mode would be good. Perhaps make the sabre throw NOT the alt mouse fire. That way mouse 1 will be attack and mouse 2 is block(with keyboard directional guidance). The auto-blocking would seem to be a possible limitation, if you really want to get down and dirty w/ the sabre.

But, perhaps trying to block for yourself would be a bit to much to handle. And by keeping the blocking 'automatic', it will keep players on a more even level, makes it more of a challenge, and keeps everyone alive longer(happy). I'm sure Raven thought of this....

I'm confident I will be pleased with the sabre.
and welcome to the boards, Lilred.

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Old 03-19-2002, 01:11 AM   #18
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sorry bad idea
if u want to blast someone just force push them and blast em
or get on the side of them and blast away
youll just have to overcome it
lightsaber owns


-Saber_Trails, elite saber duelist, old school JKer, Jedi Master
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Old 03-19-2002, 01:43 AM   #19
acdcfanbill
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a stamina bar would be the best way to go IMO... sort of like the heat indicator on RtcW.. you can block so much then your arms get too tired (or whatever) and you have to wait until they replenish themselves... ie the bar goes down some... not a terribe idea, but i think a true jedi is probably not held back by such moral things as stamina... especially not with blocking blasters, maybe so with sabres though...

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Old 03-19-2002, 01:53 AM   #20
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Come on people. This is Star Wars. Geez. ^_^


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Old 03-19-2002, 03:18 AM   #21
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I definitely like HBK's idea of having a manual block button, but maybe that's just because I've played too much Soul Calibur in my lifetime. But then again it might not be as appropriate seeing as a heavy attack may kill someone instantly according to ChangKahn, so matches on average may not be as long as those in SC. A manual blocking button generally gives you a greater feel of control in the battles though. In any case a manual block key should be rather easy to mod into the game.
The Thief series had a pretty good combat system thanks to the great collision detection system in the Dark Engine, but then again the sword battles were considerably slower paced than what I've seen in JO.
In any case I have confidence that Raven have made it damn fun, especially considering all the variables of 3 stances plus the force powers, which may make it one of the deepest first person sabre battle system.
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Old 03-19-2002, 05:24 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by milestone
I definitely like HBK's idea of having a manual block button, but maybe that's just because I've played too much Soul Calibur in my lifetime.
Woohoo, someone liked my idea. But I really didn't explain it very well. We know that there will be sabre attacks based on the mouse button AND the 6 basic keys. I meant to say that the alt mouse button should be a block button, but ALSO work in conjunction with some of the 'basic keys'. So instead of just pressing the 1 block button, you had to at least signify you want to block left, right, etc...

I don't care for the stamina or timed blocking ideas. A Jedi doesn't really get tired and run out of energy. Let the player determine how long he'll last by his skill. Which is why I think they left in the autoblocking, to keep things even because I'm sure some folks(but not me ) will have a hard time with the sabre as it is.

But I do think it should be optional, like a server option.

and welcome to the boards milestone.

HBK


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Old 03-19-2002, 05:46 AM   #23
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hehe, tanx.

The problem with directional blocking IMO, is that well, the game is too fast paced. Considering the speed at which I've seen the later clips show the light saber, it'll be pretty damn difficult to be able to see which direction the attack is coming from. It'll be based way upon luck more than anything. It'll be deep, but pretty damn hard IMO. It'd definitely put off newbies for sure.
Ah, I'm sure they got it all sorted out...hehe, I just hope that incorrect date for the Aussie date was correct and I'll be playing it this weekend...and screw up all my exams.
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Old 03-19-2002, 05:48 AM   #24
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Ah, limited blocking, it's an idea that was tried in Jedi Power Battles.. I didn't really like it there, felt it unnecessarily complicated things (but then again the game had many other problems with it).

You can make the mod for it... see if others like it though. ; )
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Old 03-19-2002, 07:24 AM   #25
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HBK, you wouldn't happen to be on a total beast of a computer with a cable connection? Some people arn't blest with these things, and in such a fast-paced game people with low fps and with a lot of lag arn't going to be able to use directional blocking AT ALL, bringing the whole game back to JK styles for 56kers (blocking almost never happened in JK MP) who are going to be owned by cablers who can deflect their wild mashing of the saber with ease.

Just think about it; something that seems cool in theory just might not be practical in all circumstances.


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Old 03-19-2002, 07:27 AM   #26
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Well if a Jedi has been blocking shots for about 5 minutes I think he'd probably grow tired. So a stamina idea is not bad. But a saber overheating idea is stupid, otherwise every Jedi duel in the movies had to be canceled since those sabers were constantly blocking stuff and overheated.
I can already see it happen. *mid "Duel of the Fates"... whap whum whum whoosh, fsssst....* Obi-Wan: Blasted, my saber overheated, now I can't fight on.
Maul: oh well, want to go for some coffee while they cool down?
Qui-Gon & Obi: Sure!
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Old 03-19-2002, 07:28 AM   #27
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CHANG IS THERE A POSSIBILITY OF A DEMO BEFORE THE RELEASE PLZ TELL US!!


-sorry, had to ask, going nuts over here.
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Old 03-19-2002, 07:34 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Broode
[BJust think about it; something that seems cool in theory just might not be practical in all circumstances. [/B]
But I have such visions...


I know you're right, except about my beast computer(it's not bad though).

HBK
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HBK

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Your head lays there by your side"


"Oh people, know that you have commited great sins. If you ask me what proof I have for these words, I say it is because I am the punishment of God. If you had not commited great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you!"
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Old 03-19-2002, 09:05 AM   #29
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This is a long post, but if you don't read the whole thing, at least read the last two paragraphs.

I've posted several times on this subject in various fora, so I'll post it here, too. I like LilRed's idea of manual blocking (and he was treated a pretty harshly...sorry LilRed). I think it would make saber fights much more interesting and would require more skill (which, as Tie alluded to, may not be appealing to all, even though most wanted a more complex/interesting saber system). However, I think HBK's idea of controlling the direction of blocking wouldn't work that well since the game does move so fast (as milestone stated). Because the game moves so fast, I think there might not be much difference between the most skilled direction-blocker and a mediocre direction-blocker in terms of successful blocks. This implies that skill isn't affecting outcome very much, and means it's a game-system issue that's limiting/influencing the outcome (i.e., speed of game). There's no point in making something skill based if having a high level of skill does not differentiate from mediocre skill level. So, in my mind it's back to a single manual block button that blocks the appropriate incoming attack.
I think a stamina idea is the best, too, and overheating sabers makes no sense to me. I think blocking should be limited in some sense, but there's an easier and more sensible way to do this. The way I've thought about it in the past is to have blocking detract from your force pool. I know, I know...lots of people hate that idea because it takes away from being force-wielding gods. It makes sense to me, though. In the books, Jedi have to use the force to block blaster shots. Since blaster bolts travel so fast, beings can't block them with vision alone. They have to sense where the bolt *will* be and use the force to move their body faster. In a couple of books, Jedi have been very drained by blocking multiple incoming blaster shots (e.g., Luke in one book I can't remember the title of now). While this isn't "canon" and it isn't expressly stated in the movies, it is hinted at and does make sense (e.g., Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan using force speed to get away from droidekas because standing there blocking wouldn't have done much good and it would have just drained them, why Luke can only block shots from one training droid in ANH and can block mulitple shots from multiple attackers in ROTJ, and why Luke gets shot in the hand in ROTJ when he gets distracted for a second and stops using the force to help with sensing incoming shots, etc.). It also drains mana to block another person's saber a lot of the time, especially if the other person is using the force to speed up their attack. Again, this is from the books and is not expressly stated in the movies, so it may not be "canon", but it still makes sense for the same reasons. I think making manual blocking drain the force pool sticks to the idea of the books/movies, and I think it makes the game much more strategic. If you go into a room and there are lots of troopers, do you just block with the possibility of your mana being totally drained? Do you use force powers while blocking and drain your mana even faster? Do you not block at all and just attack with force powers? etc.

Quote:
A Jedi doesn't really get tired and run out of energy.
Well, I have to respectfully disagree, HBK. I don't think Jedi are immune to physical tiredness. For example, Yoda saying he was tired, Luke while he's lost on Hoth, Luke at the end of ESB looks pretty tired (although you could argue he's not a Jedi yet for the last two, but still), etc. It's also why Jedi use trances to regain energy and fight off tiredness (Qui-Gon kneeling during the break in his duel with Maul), but they definitely do get tired and drained.

Anyway, my main point in this is to say that there is already a mod for MOTS that's been out for years called the 'Art of the Lightsaber' that incorporated manual blocking which drained mana (along with a bunch of attacks, rolls, stances, etc.). I liked it a lot and I encourage you to download it and try it if you own MOTS so that you can try manual blocking with mana draining. That way, everyone can talk about their experience with such a system, rather than what everyone *thinks* such a system would be like. In my opinion, though, I really enjoyed this system. If you play it, you will in fact find out that incorporating manual blocking does not increase lag and that it's actually very do-able in multiplayer, contrary to what Broode said.

http://www.geocities.com/motsmag/

Use the *second* listing of the mod to download. This file is becoming more and more rare since the organization that produced it is now defunct. In fact, I believe Fardreamer was a co-creator of this mod.....I wonder what he thinks about this topic.

Irimi-Ai
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Old 03-19-2002, 09:06 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by jedialphaknight
CHANG IS THERE A POSSIBILITY OF A DEMO BEFORE THE RELEASE PLZ TELL US!!


-sorry, had to ask, going nuts over here.
hush! Somehow i have an idea that question scares him away...

And thats understandable!!!


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Old 03-19-2002, 09:20 AM   #31
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The manual blocking idea is a great one. Having it drain from your force reserve is a pretty good idea, but it would be hard to balance. A lot of the books make it out to be that blocking incoming blaster shots isn't that hard once you get the feel of it. Yes, you use the force, but it's almost one of those passive powers that does not require a lot of effort. Now when it comes to dueling, I do think that there should be some kind of draining of force reserve or of stamina. It should be minimal though, duels should be able to go on for a long time before anyone becomes fully drained. Perhaps instead of having the force reserve being depleted, one cannot recharge their force reserve while fighting, so if they use force powers during a duel, their reserve will not recharge until they stop dueling for a certain amount of time.
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Old 03-19-2002, 10:12 AM   #32
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Irimi-Ai, I didn't mean to imply that they never get tired, it just took a long time. I feel that a Jedi will become mentally fatigued before he is physically tired. Look at the Force jumps and Speed. The Force fuels a Jedi's body and makes him 'strong'. It is when a Jedi looses his mental edge that he becomes 'weaker'. E.g. no force power = no jumps or speed.

I conceed(sp?) the point about manual blocking. Quotes myself:
Quote:
But, perhaps trying to block for yourself would be a bit to much to handle.
So, like I said, I don't think a Jedi will get physically tired before he is mentally tired so I don't like the stamina drain idea for blocking. But I do like your idea of blocking using force power, since it is his concentration that is focusing the Force to move his body. And once he has no force power left, = mentally fatigued, he cannot enhance his physical abilities enough to defend himself against a Force enhanced opponent.
On the other hand, I don't like the idea of you running out of force power and being defenseless(sp?). Perhaps you can still block, but now it comes out of your health. Like in RoTJ at the end when Luke is whipping Vadar. He attacks so much Vadar cannot concentrate enough to keep his guard up and Luke cuts his hand off.
But the how will you ever get your Force power back? Hopefully go on the offensive so you Force Power will recover. I guess your Force power will recover slower than the weakest attack you block. That way, if you are constantly blocking you'll never recover, and you shouldn't for being a wuss. And blocking big, heavy moves will drain you faster.


Sorry if I make no sense, It's been a long night. I'm almost embarrased to post these ramblings. Have mercy on me...

HBK

EDIT: oh, and Irimi-Ai, all the examples of 'tiredness' you said, I write off as mental fatigue. Nuff said And unfortunately I do not have JK or MoTS.


HBK

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Your head lays there by your side"


"Oh people, know that you have commited great sins. If you ask me what proof I have for these words, I say it is because I am the punishment of God. If you had not commited great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you!"
Genghis Khan, 1220

Last edited by HBK; 03-19-2002 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 03-19-2002, 10:22 AM   #33
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Irimi-Ai: I LOVED AOTL! That was the best mod EVER for MoTS, at least until SBX. Too bad no one played it on the Zone or GSA...buncha Cargo-Soldiers and NF Gantry Duelists. The most fun I had with that mod was in Tatooine Homestead. Damn that level ROCKED! I hope they have a similar MP level in JO.


"Hide a stone among stones and a man among men." General Rokurota, "The Hidden Fortress"
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Old 03-19-2002, 02:22 PM   #34
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I'd have to strongly disagree with that idea. In theory, it could work, but then who would use the lightsaber? (that comment is based on the time it takes to deplete the "bar". If it takes about a minute or so, then its better than 10 secs) If you could just sit and blast people w/ lightsabers while backing up and force pushing (to negate the force pull) and just wait until its depleted and switch to a disruptor and finish him. No one would use the lightsaber a large part of the time anymore. I remeber in SP JKI i used the lightsaber all the time, mainly because you could deflect shots with it.
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Old 03-19-2002, 02:36 PM   #35
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I think if someone thought of all these ideas, they would come up with some great ballance. But I mean realy put there mind in to it. I never thought that Max Payne would ever pull off it's bullet time. Well but they figured ways to ballace it out to make A great game The same thing will probably be with this game.
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Old 03-19-2002, 02:37 PM   #36
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heir03:

I agree that the books give the impression that it's not very difficult for a Jedi to block blaster shots from one person. However, I think the books also give the impression that blocking blaster shots from 20 people at the same time *is* really hard. For example, when Luke was in the Chiss stronghold he almost passed out from the amount of concentration and Force-wielding it took to block the shots from 20 people at the same time. He was also not able to direct the shots back to any specific point. He was just blocking them, and he was gradually being overwhelmed (sorry I can't remember the title). This also might be what happened in ROTJ when he got shot in the hand. In AOTL, this added a lot of strategy to the game. If it was one trooper, you could block all you want...no problem. If you walked into a room with 20 troopers, blocking their shots is the last thing you would want to do as your mana would be gone in a few seconds due to the number of blocked shots. This seems more 'realistic' and more like the movies/books to me. In AOTL, the mana cost for one block was not too much at all, and duels did go on for a long time (longer than any other mod I've played/seen). So, the mana-cost did not get in the way of long saber duels at all. In fact, the blocking mana-cost is what *promoted* long saber duels.

HBK:
I totally agree that a Jedi will become physically tired *after* becoming mentally tired. That makes sense to me. I also agree that the examples I gave have mental tiredness as their root cause, though I was just pointing out that they do get physically tired (as a result of mental fatigue, of course). To recover mana during a fight in AOTL, there were a couple of typical ways. You could:
1. Go on the defensive: rely on evasive manuevers (jumps, rolls, flips, etc.) to evade attacks while your mana recharged.
2. Go on the offensive: you could begin attacking like crazy in the hopes of occupying our opponent until your mana recharged and maybe deplete his by making him block some.
3. Withdraw: you could flee and recharge mana, which unfortunately is often seen as weak, cowardly, etc.

I wish you had MOTS so you could try AOTL. I'd like to hear what you thought about this system, and MOTS is a good game in itself. I like your idea about it costing more mana to block heavier attacks, too. That would be really interesting.


Cracken:
Tatooine Homestead was a great level to play with AOTL. There used to be AOTL rooms on the Zone, but they are hard to get now, although I play the Zone extremely rarerly (read: once or twice a year...literally. I prefer direct IP with my friends.). The clan Masters of the Lightsaber (MOTL) used to exclusively use the AOTL mod, and they used to have AOTL rooms on the Zone a lot. I think they switched to the SBX mod once version 3 came out, though I'm not sure. Anyway, glad to know someone else likes AOTL and that someone else here has played it. I don't want people to think I'm making stuff up or exagerrating.

Irimi-Ai

PS Thanks all for not flaming me right away. On other fora I've been quickly told that having manual blocking that costs mana is the stupidest and worst idea. My suspicion is that those people just want to run around without thinking, fragging as many as possible in order to "prove" their l337 skillz. That's just my suspicion, though; I have no proof of that.
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Old 03-19-2002, 02:48 PM   #37
Irimi-Ai
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 122
Sorry for the double post. I didn't see RedHerring's post until just now.

RedHerring:
In AOTL, it would take a good while (maybe 60 seconds of non-stop blocking of one opponent) to deplete mana from blocking. Although, this was shorter the more shots that were being blocked in the same amount of time (e.g., blocking shots from 20 people at once depleted mana very quickly). I agree that it makes things a little bit more difficult for using the lightsaber. However, this also makes sense to me, as with a lightsaber you have to get in close (or relatively if you want to throw it). It makes sense that someone using a lightsaber would have to think more about closing the distance. Also, with this system in AOTL, you could still very well deflect shots. There's nothing stopping that. It only makes you think about whether that's the best thing to do, and if not, then you've got to think of a better alternative. I agree that this system could work in theory, and I also think that this system has worked *in practice*. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts about the system in AOTL if you have played it. It's easy to find fault with things in theory, but I'd be more interested to hear your thoughts about the system based on your experience with it.

Irimi-Ai
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Old 03-19-2002, 02:52 PM   #38
Mikaserla
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 25
I like manual blocking. You should also have a force block
to knock the opponent and disorient him for a second or two. The force block and manual block should use up some of your force and drain the force meter. Ofcourse the force block if used should use more force than the regular block does.
I also hope you can manualy force block gun shots back at a target.

This is pretty close to how it works in Obiwan and I think it works well.
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Old 03-19-2002, 07:54 PM   #39
KandyFLip
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 40
OK, I don't wanna get too involved in this. both sides have valid points on auto blocking and manual blocking. But, I must point out one lil thing. I'll just re-word something that's been hit upon a few times in this thread: A Jedi doesn't seem to actually manually block stuff, the Force guides him. Therefore, it would seem that auto blocking is in fact more realistic that manual blocking would be.
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Old 03-19-2002, 11:17 PM   #40
HBK
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Squared Circle
Posts: 328
Just to beat it a little more:
Yes, 'it would seem auto-blocking is more realistic', until he became tired and couldn't concentrate on 'channeling' the Force to guide his actions. Remember in ESB when Vadar is force throwing things at Luke and he's just missing everything?

And welcome to the boards all you new guys (I'm new too).

HBK


HBK

"When kissed by the sword of Vengeance
Your head lays there by your side"


"Oh people, know that you have commited great sins. If you ask me what proof I have for these words, I say it is because I am the punishment of God. If you had not commited great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you!"
Genghis Khan, 1220
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