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Old 04-10-2002, 09:22 AM   #41
VaderJM
 
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Use dark rage, force speed and bunny hop in CTF, then laugh at the people trying to catch you, all the while yelling "WHEEEEEEEEE"
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Old 04-10-2002, 10:10 AM   #42
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Since when is strafejumping cheating. Just because you are too lazy to learn it doesn't mean it is cheating. And those binding bunnyhopping to a key will never learn the decent trickjumps.

In elite force extremely beautiful moves were executed. Learn it if you want to be a pro.


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Old 04-10-2002, 10:51 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pvt_Dancer
I take exception to what you said Trienco... those guns are just as much a part of the SW world as the lightsabre. First of all, the majority of the SW world AREN'T Jedi's. What the hell would all those other people do to get in their little bit of violence?

Of course there are guns and plenty of them in SW. Probably a wide variety too. I mean, our culture has a wide vareity of guns, why wouldn't theirs?
i'm not talking about all the guns, but especially the flechette. matter of taste but to me it seems to much of a "every shooter has a shotgun"-decision. and of course you cant just stick with the guns you see in the movies. 5 versions of the same weapon would be quite boring just like it would be if all weapons would be blasters with just different damage and fire rate. but when was the last time you saw a shotgun in a sci-fi movie? (dont mention alien 4, they didnt have sci-fi like weapons at all *g*)

anyway, i guess it was about strafe jumping before i mentioned a couple other things *g*.


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Old 04-10-2002, 11:03 AM   #44
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Quote:
Since when is strafejumping cheating.
Pretty much since it's inception. It was originally a nasty little bug that people would use. Then it became somewhat mainstream in Q2. And they even kept it in for Q3 because that community liked it. Which was a shame because had this technique activated a Quad damage you can bet it would have been removed, speed was just on the cusp of acceptability.

CS removed it and marked it down as cheating. Kingpin accepted it and pretty much simultaneously self destructed because of it. Q3 accepts it and RTCW has coded against it via their stamina thingy (I think). Personally I always felt it a pointless little exploit that created a new "skill" for no real reason. I hope JK2 will see it as an exploit too and remove it so we can concentrate on more important skills like sabre use.

PS. If your spending your time practicing how to jump and strafe and swing your mouse around just so you can outrun other people in a game then you're spending far too much time online.
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Old 04-10-2002, 01:25 PM   #45
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Reality check...

If you want a perfect "jedi simulator" you won't find one.. anywhere. Games are meant to be played.. and when multiplayer comes in, the developers seek "balance" and "fun," and strict adherence to canon and fanboy rules takes a backseat. That's just a fact...

Also, I would highly encourage people who want JK2 to be a roleplaying game to read up on the following:

Star Wars Galaxies
Knights of the Old Republic


These are full fledged RPG's, where you can be Jedi, and they will immerse you in the Star Wars Universe better than JK2 ever could.
The shooter genre has its limitations, and I doubt it will ever live up to the standards set by the role-players we keep hearing from (remember, these are the people who call gun users names when they win, and complain about Stormtroopers using lightsabers).

JK2 is a first person shooter.. you know what that means? It means it isn't a Star Wars movie.. it's an action game, about blowing stuff up and shooting things. Sure, there's lightsaber action in there too, but the essence of the Dark Forces series has always been the first person shooter.

A discussion about strafe-running/jumping turns into a discussion about roleplaying in the Star Wars universe. ; )

Personally, I think that some people will never be satisfied. It just isn't the game developers job to disable every single feature he put into his game that doesn't fit into your view of what "Star Wars" should be, sorry to say.

And yes, we went through the whole Half Life engine thing... anyone who says that it's based solely on the Quake1 engine is only partly correct, regardless of what planethalflife says.
[/end rant]
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Old 04-10-2002, 01:30 PM   #46
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i use strafe jumping simply because i think the game speed is a bit slow and i want to move faster around maps because its more fun.. i would use rolling but after a roll i cant move at all for a short while which doesnt make it a very quick way to move around maps (obviously its meant for light saber fights).. but i dont really care.. if strafe jumping is there i use it, if it isnt i dont mind.. not a big deal
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Old 04-10-2002, 01:42 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prox Kolari
Me too. I'm also sick of all these cheap, cheap asses out there bunnyhop-draining, drain-gripping, or whatever other neat little exploits that are based on exploiting weird timing issues in the engine, and saying "but it's legit! I'm not cheating!" Cheap is always legit, but people dislike it. "But I'm winning."

Okay, great. If the point is to get the most kills, have fun. Let's turn the Star Wars universe into freaking Unreal Tournament. Next up, a voice patch with Yoda taunting "Die, b!+@#."

i would love to see a voice patch with yoda degrading me...hehe....that little bugger needs to take a shock rifle shot to the head.... hehe UT foeva..heh...



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Old 04-10-2002, 02:00 PM   #48
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solution

The solution is to play other gametypes besides ctf... WIth all the force/guns/sabers I really haven't felt the desire to do ctf in this game...Let the lamers stay in ctf...
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Old 04-10-2002, 02:25 PM   #49
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Wink

Bunny-hopping is a ridiculous notion that doesn't belong in any action game - except for one with rabbits maybe.

Bunny-hoppers are lamers... Period.
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Old 04-10-2002, 02:39 PM   #50
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bunnyhopping is fine when it adds something to gameplay, without causing imbalances... quake contains no such qualities such as classes, force powers, or a realistic damage model where game balance can be hurt by it...

bunnyhopping is a technique, you can learn it, perfect it, and incorporate it into your game to where it falls along side explosion/rocket jumping, trimping/double jumping, and other such movement techniques... it allows for an expansion of gameplay elements that gives a sharper learning curve and extends the life and interest in the game due to deeper gameplay...

for those of you complaining about this simply due to the fact that you 'don't have the time to learn it' (or that 'people who do have the time, have no life') should really just go back to playing Atari.. if someone is willing to spend more time playing and learning a game than you, they deserve to be a better player...

however I will agree that bunnyhopping in JK2 is perhaps imbalancing and more exploitive, due to the fact that it negates the need for force speed in some ways (although you still gain from the increased attack rate, etc).. but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing in ALL games..
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Old 04-10-2002, 02:43 PM   #51
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Kurgan -

As an admin, I would think you'd be above using words like fanboy in a derogatory fashion?

Here's my point. Yes it's a FPS game, but what is it called? Bounty Hunter Outcast? Repeater Whore 2: Gunner Outcast?

No. It's Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast . And no matter how much some would like have to Q3 or UT with Star Wars textures, certain things about the SW universe are pretty much untouchable, such lightsabers being the primary weapon of a Jedi. Even the dark ones. We're not even talking about role-playing here, its just intrinsic to the SW universe..You have the ability to use the force you pretty much stick to the lightsaber unless you're flying around blowing up a Death Star or two.
A good point was brought up a few posts back about inserting something crazy like a gun that shoots lightsabers into Medal of Honor, or a crouch jump invulnerability exploit, using your logic of "balance" and "fun", how would you explain to people that it is ok when they complain "hey, these lightsaber wielding nazi's are tearing up the 82nd airborne, what gives?"

Would your response be to suspend your 'fanboy' fascination of what should have been going on in WW2 for the sake of a balanced and fun game? (Both pretty subjective terms).

As to the two games you mentioned, one of them is console only, and the other would be GREAT if it wasn't going to cost 14.95 a month to subscribe like every other MMRPG out there.

One last point, in all the pre-release, development hype in all the magazines, websites, etc, I don't recall ever seeing a phrase like "JK series is back, it's time for Jedi all over to fire up their trusty spam cannon and send the stormtroopers packing with their alt fire!" It's been about the saber

TDS
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Old 04-10-2002, 02:53 PM   #52
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It is quite simple. You want to bunny-hop, go and play Quake. It looks completely out of place here. A jedi simulation this may not be, but there is no need to deliberately destroy the Star Wars atmosphere.

There seems to be a strong correlation between supporters of bunny-hopping and those who wish nothing more than to win, win, win in the games. Perhaps you need to learn to appreciate gaming as a fun activity, something that is not connected with "owning", "dominating" or "being a pro". Some very pathetic people here.

Just a note on the gun issue though. That is something I have little problem with and in fact encourage. It seems quite strange having so many Jedi running around. The "special ability" of them is lost.
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Old 04-10-2002, 02:59 PM   #53
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FWB - You may only have to wait until June when Unreal Tournament 2003 is slated to come out. I'd be willing to bet that quite a few of the win,win,win types will be hauling ass to DOMINATE in that game.

TDS
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Old 04-10-2002, 02:59 PM   #54
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the thrill and challenge of learning something difficult, becoming good at it, and facing the new challenges that pop up in competition is what draws some people to playing FPS games also, that is the experience that makes it "fun" for them... what you may find fun about a game can differ completely from what others may feel, neither is right or wrong, just a difference of opinion and taste..
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Old 04-10-2002, 03:03 PM   #55
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I played quake 3 a lot and strafe jumping made it much better. It made travelling around the map bareable because you didn't spend ages running from place to place. Furthermore, as in jedi knight especially with lightsabers, it doesn't help you when your actually fighting. It makes it more difficult. It is an effective method of escape but there are many others that people would use, It is not hard. The only issue is in cty when it does cause an imbalance. I don't use strafe jumping because with force jump its too difficult and to be honest i haven't seen many others using it either. On the whole i don't think its a major problem because cty is a load of crud anyway , its difficult to do and not many people are doing it anyway.


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Old 04-10-2002, 03:03 PM   #56
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oh, so lukey boy destroyed the death star by sheer will power? or with a light saber?

dark ones dont either?
i guess kyp durron killed millions without a supernova causing weapon...im sure that using a shotgun is COMPLETELY out of hte realm of star wars...after all, something that causes a star to go supernova is COMPLETELY reasonable, but a shotgun...pff...that is soo...stupid...

COME ON PEOPLE...by definition star wars is fantasy...why are we banning things out of our fantasy? i think this is a ridiculous notion...

by the way, if the name jedi outcast does denote 'supposed to be used without shotguns' why should we be able to use a disruptor? hmm?? that has been outlawed....a jedi wouldnt be breaking the law would he?

maybe we shouldnt use some force powers because they would portray negative connotations to those we are using them on...the golden rule should apply...

maybe we should take out the weapons altogether...hmm..not a bad idea.....well, maybe we shouldnt use the name outcast...it could make someone feel badly about themselves...hmm...maybe jedi is too strong of a word....after all, we dont want to make those who arent a jedi feel left out...and i also know a few people who arent knights...hmm....maybe we can just call this 'the politically correct game' hmm...some people arent politicians...how about the game!! that would work!!!

we could just run around and live in real life!!! it could be like the sims!! the star wars community would love it!!!

therefore, im not going to play jedi outcast..its too awful.....



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Old 04-10-2002, 03:11 PM   #57
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Quote:
If you want a perfect "jedi simulator" you won't find one.. anywhere. Games are meant to be played.. and when multiplayer comes in, the developers seek "balance" and "fun," and strict adherence to canon and fanboy rules takes a backseat. That's just a fact...
I'm sure Raven did their best to stay true to the SW universe. The game is supposed to revolve around a person being an Jedi, and the game is set in a preset universe who apparantly haven't invented any form of jumping boots or any other device capable of making people fly around like some damn monkey! And I quite frankly can't see neither "balance" nor "fun" in strafe jumping, much more the opposite is witnessed when you play a multiplayer game of JK2 today....so thats simply a silly comment....

I agree with you, games ARE meant to be played, but why on earth do we have to learn to exploit a bug in the game to be on par with other players? I can't really see who benefits from this. The fan of racing games? People with a need for speed perhaps? This just doesn't fit into the game.....

Quote:
The shooter genre has its limitations
It sure has, and it's even possible to fix it....but there seems to be a group of people who opposes the hords of people who wants to remove bugs from the game....strange isn't it?

Quote:
Personally, I think that some people will never be satisfied. It just isn't the game developers job to disable every single feature he put into his game that doesn't fit into your view of what "Star Wars" should be, sorry to say.
It doesn't matter what universe we are set in! Human beings DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO FLY!


CAT-scan

Bleh...bunny jumping
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Old 04-10-2002, 03:17 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheDarkSide
FWB - You may only have to wait until June when Unreal Tournament 2003 is slated to come out. I'd be willing to bet that quite a few of the win,win,win types will be hauling ass to DOMINATE in that game.

TDS
I hope so. OFP was great in that you never got those times. If you are concerned about losing or dying then it certainly wasn't the game for you.

Quote:
Originally posted by hughJ
the thrill and challenge of learning something difficult, becoming good at it, and facing the new challenges that pop up in competition is what draws some people to playing FPS games also, that is the experience that makes it "fun" for them... what you may find fun about a game can differ completely from what others may feel, neither is right or wrong, just a difference of opinion and taste..
There's a difference between wanting to improve and going on about using techniques just to win or to get the most kills. These tend to be the same guys who will swear and curse if you kill them, then spend the rest the of the game trying to hunt you down. It is a typical mindset that I've come across online and I don't like playing with them. They're simply not fun, have no thought for others and are rather "unsportsmanlike".

Quote:
Originally posted by thrEEpaGe
COME ON PEOPLE...by definition star wars is fantasy...why are we banning things out of our fantasy? i think this is a ridiculous notion...

Sorry, but did you not read half the posts people have made here? There are certain features in each genre. Using you're argument, we could put laser guns into Medal of Honour, or B-17s in Star Wars. Just because it is fantasy does not mean it doesn't have borders. There's a reason I own JO but none of Quake 1, 2 or 3, Unreal or Half-life. I didn't/don't care for their settings. I certainly don't recall anyone in Star Wars bunny-hoping.

Last edited by FWB; 04-10-2002 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 04-10-2002, 03:21 PM   #59
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riiiiight....

"the game is set in a preset universe who apparantly havent invented any form of jumping boots or any other device capable of making people fly around like some damn monkey! "

so i guess the force is all a hoax....

well, how much in the books OR movies do you hear people complaining about their mana running out? or that they are switching to a different saber stance? or that they cant force jump that high....

all star wars games cannot compare to the sheer openness and freedom offered by the movie force...while this isnt directly related to bunny hopping, it shows that no game can be perfect



find me a first person shooter that doesnt have exploits!!!!!!!!!!!

you are naive to think that this is the only problem with the game...

you are supposed to operate within the environment of the game, and strafe jumping is within this....everyone can do it!!!! it doesnt require skill!!!...what is the problem? it gives those people who 'know the trick' to have an advantage to those who havent played much multiplayer....which should happen already!

maybe we should take away aiming all together, because some people might not have as good aim as others....hm?

it offers dynamics, to stay ahead of the curve, to get better at people

again, try to find another game without exploits....

stop whining....



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Old 04-10-2002, 03:26 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by thrEEpaGe

again, try to find another game without exploits....

stop whining....
Ohh, I see, just because other games have problems we shouldn't be voicing our discontent and asking if some of the issues can be fixed. Right, I get where you're coming from. We're supposed to keep our mouths shut if we're not quite happy with something. I wonder how many of the current game features have been taken from fan comments from the past ones. What about patches? The fans' voices play the major part in helping to design them.

If you don't like the compliants... well you can always stop reading.

Quote:
you are supposed to operate within the environment of the game, and strafe jumping is within this....everyone can do it!!!! it doesnt require skill!!!...what is the problem? it gives those people who 'know the trick' to have an advantage to those who havent played much multiplayer....which should happen already!
Why should this happen? This isn't Quake.

You're also contradicting yourself here. Firstly you say it is part of the game then you suggest that its exploitation.
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Old 04-10-2002, 03:31 PM   #61
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"There's a difference between wanting to improve and going on about using techniques just to win or to get the most kills. "

it's not the existence of the technique that causes you to win.. this isn't some aimbot (or whatever) that magically makes you a better player... it's not a technique that when suddenly learned turns you from a good player to a great player... it's just the fact that the majority of experienced players whom strive to improve and be the best they can tend to also be the ones whom are willing to learn new things wanting to challenge themselves...

"These tend to be the same guys who will swear and curse if you kill them, then spend the rest the of the game trying to hunt you down..." "...They're simply not fun, have no thought for others and are rather "unsportsmanlike". "

imo that's really too much of a personal judgement to be classifying "types" of people as 'this' or 'that' simply based on whether they use a technique or not...

not to jump on my elitist pedestal or anything, but most of the actually great players I know (in various games), really tend not to say anything at all when playing on public servers... public servers are a place to relax in a laid-back atmosphere, without any of the pressures that can go along with actual competition.. people whom complain like that on public servers tend to *think* they are better than they actually are (imo)..
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Old 04-10-2002, 03:36 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by hughJ
it's not the existence of the technique that causes you to win.. this isn't some aimbot (or whatever) that magically makes you a better player... it's not a technique that when suddenly learned turns you from a good player to a great player... it's just the fact that the majority of experienced players whom strive to improve and be the best they can tend to also be the ones whom are willing to learn new things wanting to challenge themselves...
May I ask you this... if bunny hoping was specifically designed to be in the game what is the point of force speed? Combining the two does not make you go faster, but a bunny-hopper can out stay ahead of someone using speed. I think it quite clear that this was an oversight on the developers' part.

And this "best they can" comment you make... where does that end? The arm only skin that is in the engine can be accessed without cheating... is that then acceptable because I want to be "the best I can"? Or in MOHAA.... you could make yourself invisible by using a skin no-one else had... again, not a hack, or any kind of programming, a very simple "technique", should I be allowed to use it? I fail to see why people are incapable of playing a game along a normally. What is wrong with simply enjoying taking part? What about spawn killing? That'll get you many kills and sometimes is a great tactic if you want to stop the enemy from attacking your base. That is a technique, but is it alright? Or base raping? Did you ever play OFP? You'd get the odd cock who would fly over the enemy's base and bomb the crap out of all their vehicles so they would take 30 mins to reach your flag and the game would slow to a crawl for one side. 95% of servers I went on had unofficial rules that banned this.

Quote:
imo that's really too much of a personal judgement to be classifying "types" of people as 'this' or 'that' simply based on whether they use a technique or not...
No, I simply said that they tend to hold specific mindsets. This is from my experience. Those who tend to use the bunny-hopping and the arm skin have been quite nasty. You ask them questions (not even asking them to stop), they start to go off at you on one. They also tend to be the ones writing "owned" and "I rule" at the end of rounds. Hell will freeze over before you see them complimenting someone on a good shot/move.

Last edited by FWB; 04-10-2002 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 04-10-2002, 03:43 PM   #63
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can we please stop with the 'bunny-hopping' thing..
i'm not trying to be elitist or something like that but it does sound gay.

it was first called 'strafe jumping', and it should be still. because that's what you use, jump and strafe.

something got skewed on CS and the new comers, oh well.

JK2 issues, strafe jumping is easily countered.. in jk2 you can't just start it.. you have to jump a few time first to gain a lot of speed. just force pull when victim is airborn and the victim will have to start again.
this is without counting with absorb on though.

another flaw is that if you bump into something your speed is also reset and you have to start again.

and as stated previously, it's hard to do since force jumps goes off auto and resets your speed.

so you could still say absorb overpowers a bit. just like drain.. but drain is just cheese.. that needs to be fixed.
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Old 04-10-2002, 03:46 PM   #64
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"May I ask you this... if bunny hoping was specifically designed to be in the game what is the point of force speed?"

-from one of my prior posts:
"however I will agree that bunnyhopping in JK2 is perhaps imbalancing and more exploitive, due to the fact that it negates the need for force speed in some ways (although you still gain from the increased attack rate, etc).. but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing in ALL games"

"Those who tend to use the bunny-hopping and the arm skin have been quite nasty"
-then I'll stand by my statement that those people who are like that, likely just think they are better than they actually are.. (an undeserved large ego)
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Old 04-10-2002, 03:48 PM   #65
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Kurgan == True

// eof



Seriously though, I'm not gonna argue in strafe jumping's favour - it's been done and countered so much so it's nearly a moot point. I'm gonna say:

All you guys complaining strafe jumping offers an unfair advantage, and that force speed is rendered useless against a strafe jumping yaslamarlamarema... "that animal thing" carrier must have your heads screwed on backwards. Level three force speed combined with a force jump or roll and you're on ANY strafe jumper with no force powers.

I'm a strafe jumper whether I think it fits the SW universe or not - old habits die hard - playing any FPS after UT was a bit difficult, dodging across platforms and out of the way of rockets often met with an untimely demise O_o

Where was I? Oh yeah - strafe jumping - deal with it. It's there, and there's next to nothing you can do about it - as many people want it removed as want to keep it, so Raven would do better to keep it in and maintain a huge fanbase that play the game because they have to, than lose it and lose the quake 3 bandwagon jumpers.

That last sentence was AWFUL. Ah laziness, why do you always prevent me from sorting it out...

ME DONE


...

Last edited by Craggeh; 04-10-2002 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 04-10-2002, 03:53 PM   #66
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I started a poll here:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...threadid=41849
Go vote so we can get an accurate assessment of the community.

I am personally against strafe-jumping. I am in perfect agreement with everything that 70-228 and TheDarkSide said, so I won't repeat their arguments.

Edit: fixed link
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Old 04-10-2002, 03:54 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by hughJ
"May I ask you this... if bunny hoping was specifically designed to be in the game what is the point of force speed?"

-from one of my prior posts:
"however I will agree that bunnyhopping in JK2 is perhaps imbalancing and more exploitive, due to the fact that it negates the need for force speed in some ways (although you still gain from the increased attack rate, etc).. but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing in ALL games"
It's use in other games is of little concern to me. If Quake/Unreal players want to do it, fine, they can. I'm arguing for it not to be in JO, because a)I don't think the developers thought it was supposed to be used and b) it doesn't fit.

Would you care to respond to my comments spawnkilling other such techniques?

Quote:
Originally posted by metsu
JK2 issues, strafe jumping is easily countered.. in jk2 you can't just start it.. you have to jump a few time first to gain a lot of speed. just force pull when victim is airborn and the victim will have to start again.
this is without counting with absorb on though.
You assume that they guy who has it is right next to you. What if it is CTY and you're trying to catch up with them? You can't.

Quote:
another flaw is that if you bump into something your speed is also reset and you have to start again.
My heart bleeds for them. They shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Quote:
and as stated previously, it's hard to do since force jumps goes off auto and resets your speed.
I'd disagree. It took me all of 15 seconds to do it once I'd been told how to. Tapping, as opposed to holding, the jump button is not hard.

Quote:
so you could still say absorb overpowers a bit. just like drain.. but drain is just cheese.. that needs to be fixed.
The force powers are another issue.
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Old 04-10-2002, 04:02 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Craggeh
so Raven would do better to keep it in and maintain a huge fanbase that want to play the game because they have to, than lose it and lose the quake 3 bandwagon jumpers.

...

That last sentence was AWFUL.
No offense... but if people bought this game JUST for the bunny hop... then I couldn't care less if they threaten to quit if Raven fixes the bug!

My sentences are awful too :P
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Old 04-10-2002, 04:12 PM   #69
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I didn't mean the people that bought it just for the strafe jump... do these people exist? I meant the people that bought it because it was "the latest thing", and stuck with it because they liked x and y. If X was strafe jumping, and Raven wrote it out, I could see a lot of people leaving - it REALLY changes gameplay.

I know I'd stick around, strafe jump or no - I'm addicted ^______^


...
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Old 04-10-2002, 04:15 PM   #70
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"Would you care to respond to my comments spawnkilling other such techniques?"

a technique is something you can learn, improve at.. it's a personal-level skill, that doesn't need to be related to gameplay strategy, etc..

"The arm only skin that is in the engine can be accessed without cheating"
-not a technique

" in MOHAA.... you could make yourself invisible by using a skin no-one else had"
-not a technique

"What about spawn killing?"
-strategy, not technique

"base raping?"
-strategy also

"Did you ever play OFP? You'd get the odd cock who would fly over the enemy's base and bomb the crap out of..."
-strategy

most of what you listed there, really needs to be looked at on a per-game basis anyways...

one of my prior posts:
"...bunnyhopping..." [or any technique or ingame strategy] "...is fine when it adds something to gameplay, without causing imbalances..."

like I said, you need to take a good long look and see if you can rationalize the technique (or strategy for that matter) as being imbalancing (on a per-game basis)... most of the things you listed there, could very well be frowned upon in whatever respective games they can be in...

I'm not supporting 'cheap' strategy in general, as there is plenty of it in games that I do play competitively in, and are just as much frowned upon as comparable things can be in 'OFP'...
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Old 04-10-2002, 04:17 PM   #71
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i forgot about that capture the y-thing. but then again.. don't expect everything to be served in a platter. change your play style.. don't just all gang up at the flag and put some intercepters in mid field.
that's also another argument.
-
one could also make the same argument about strong slashes, but hey.. you can do it too. all players have the same abilities(discounting force configurations).
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Old 04-10-2002, 04:17 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Craggeh
I didn't mean the people that bought it just for the strafe jump... do these people exist? I meant the people that bought it because it was "the latest thing", and stuck with it because they liked x and y. If X was strafe jumping, and Raven wrote it out, I could see a lot of people leaving - it REALLY changes gameplay.

I know I'd stick around, strafe jump or no - I'm addicted ^______^
Weird. Although I am complaining about it, I should make it clear that I don't find many people doing it... only a few. In fact, I've seen the exact opposite response with other players starting to get frustrated everytime someone does it.

If it "REALLY" changes the gameplay for you then perhaps you need to learn to play a bit better.
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Old 04-10-2002, 04:21 PM   #73
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30 seconds in a game of CTF often means the difference between winning or losing O_o Strafe jumping makes that difference.

In FFA, you rarely need to strafe jump, so I don't think it's about me playing better at all



That has to be the best smilie EVER!


...
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Old 04-10-2002, 04:29 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by hughJ
"Would you care to respond to my comments spawnkilling other such techniques?"

a technique is something you can learn, improve at.. it's a personal-level skill, that doesn't need to be related to gameplay strategy, etc..
Check out your dictionary. The two words are closely linked to the idea of an "art". Of course technique is related to gameplay strategy, for example, in this case, the need to move fast(er).

Quote:
most of what you listed there, really needs to be looked at on a per-game basis anyways...
No offense, but then I don't understand why you're posting. We've established that it is imbalanced in JO. No one here is moaning about banning it from Quake, but from JO.

Quote:
like I said, you need to take a good long look and see if you can rationalize the technique (or strategy for that matter) as being imbalancing (on a per-game basis)... most of the things you listed there, could very well be frowned upon in whatever respective games they can be in...
Well you're changing your stance now. Before you were discussing "being the best you can". That is something completely different from balance, which would imply everyone being on the same level.

Quote:
I'm not supporting 'cheap' strategy in general, as there is plenty of it in games that I do play competitively in, and are just as much frowned upon as comparable things can be in 'OFP'...
You're argument was "this isn't some aimbot (or whatever) that magically makes you a better player". Spawnkilling, base raping etc, none of them are these. It has nothing to do with whether you hack into the game or not, but playing it in the right spirit. As we've established, the "bunny-hopping" (sorry I don't really care what the official name is ) makes speed pointless in this game. It is not a legit technique OR tactic.
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Old 04-10-2002, 04:30 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by Craggeh
30 seconds in a game of CTF often means the difference between winning or losing O_o Strafe jumping makes that difference.
Exactly. And we're back to where we started... the need to win. Tis a sad world we live in.
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Old 04-10-2002, 04:45 PM   #76
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Having read through the thread I wanted to post my small opinion:

In pubs, I don't do it. There's no need. There isn't enough organization on an opposing team usually to require it. I also view it as a cheap tactic on a pub. I'm on a pub to play for fun, generally you are playing cowboy unless you've got some clanmates on as well and it isn't about winning it's about playing for the heck of it.

In league play....it depends. If my force level is down, my force speed is about to run out and I'm low on shields and health I've got a 50/50 shot at doing it depending on how close I am to my flag stand. If it's a difference between a loss or a tie; or a tie and a win? Heck yeah I'll do it. The idea is to move up the ladder and defend your position. That's competitive play, you use the tools available to you: guns sabers, physics of the engine. You don't cheat, you don't script, you use the game and your skills.

If Raven takes it out or nerfs it, it's no big deal to me. I love the game with or without strafe jumping.
Geez, folks sure get heated about the smallest things on these forums. I'm not flaming here, but it is a game you are supposed to enjoy; not raise your blood pressure to feverish levels over.


Have a day!


The contractors on the second Death Star knew the risks when they took the job. All contractors have to take these things into consideration when they take a job--Clerks
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Old 04-10-2002, 05:08 PM   #77
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FC has a very valid point - if it's a sad world we live in where the need to win comes above all else - how the heck are league games supposed to go?

[clan]player1: Hey! We made that cap over ten minutes of holding ground, getting backup in there and some develishly clever use of force push - what happened?

[clan]player2: A guy challenged me to a duel! Hella fun!

...

That's taking it to extremes, but the need to win is always primary priority in a team game - striving to win IS fun! For me, anyway ^_^


...
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Old 04-10-2002, 05:12 PM   #78
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"No offense, but then I don't understand why you're posting"
-other games were brought up in reference to bunnyhopping.. speaking of it in poor light in other games in addition to JO.. I was merely pointing out that its case isn't the same in every game, as variables such as game balance change from game to game...

"Of course technique is related to gameplay strategy, for example, in this case, the need to move fast(er)."
-perhaps technique 'can' be related to strategy, but it doesn't need to always be..

"Well you're changing your stance now. Before you were discussing "being the best you can". That is something completely different from balance, which would imply everyone being on the same level"
-I haven't changed anything... from the very start in my posts, I have been speaking of technique being fine, as long as it doesn't upset game balance and ultimately hurt gameplay... gameplay balance is referring to whether or not the use of a certain technique upsets or bypasses the other built in elements of a game.. it is perfectly possible to have a competitive mindset with the urge to learn new things, without being win-at-all-costs to the point of not caring about game balance... bunnyhopping doesn't upset personal game balance (as anyone can do it if they learn how), but that doesn't opt it out from the issues of gameplay balance (which exist in JO)...

"You're argument was..."
-I was pointing out that there is some validity in learning new techniques, and that learning bunnyhopping doesn't simply yield immediate gains and make a person a better or more effective player... but that doesn't have to mean that someone willing to learn something new doesn't care about what's best for the game, they just perhaps have a different opinion of what the game is or should be (mainly due to what each person considers as 'fun', to them)
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Old 04-10-2002, 05:18 PM   #79
Spider AL
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Bunny-hopping... Frankly, who cares? No, I'll rephrase... who SHOULD care? It's been said before, but Whether it's in or out, it's one of a thousand tricks that players will use to increase their effectiveness. Removing strafe-jumping won't allow poor players to win, nor will it disadvantage better players. So... There. It'll make no difference to me.

Now to a point of contention:

Quote:
Yes it's a FPS game, but what is it called? Bounty Hunter Outcast? Repeater Whore 2: Gunner Outcast? No. It's Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast
If you want to be so utterly picky about the title TDS, then I must say the key word here is not Jedi, but OUTCAST. The character the entire series of DF games is based around is not a normal Jedi, but a mercenary and covert operative who uses all weapons, not just the sabre.

Having said that, it should go without saying that the title of a game and the reality of a game, are two different things. I very much doubt residents of San Francisco or Japan bought "Quake" in the hope that it was a useful simulator to prepare them for their next earthshaker. Likewise, those who bought JO "just because it's Star Wars" seem rather silly to me. I mean, I would assume people would buy a game because they believe they may have fun actually playing it. Call me crazy.

If you want to go onto JO servers, sit around on platforms taking turns to duel each other with your sabres, merely because you can't be bothered to find a duel server that gives you a decent ping, that's fine, but please, don't command other players to conform to your view of what the game should be about. I bought the game, not because I want to pretend that I'm actually a Jedi Knight, but to play the game.

As for me, I've become very tired of reading insulting texts from people I kill with the - (Insert Gun Here.) - These folks seem to believe they're the pinnacle of sabreing skill, and about two minutes after each gun kill, when I meet them around a corner and run them through with a nice medium/strong stance while they flail around ineffectually because they haven't figured out how to change stances from "fast" yet, I feel a warm glow. Of course, they then respond with several stock phrases:

1. j00 LUCKAY!!!11
2. j00 H@X!!!11
3. h@ ha ha ah Th@T reD stance is s0 l@me!!!11
4. 0h w0w, n1ce k1ll lam0r, when I was... 3rrr... 0n teh ph0ne...

Or my personal favourite:

5. kick?? KCIK? WAT IS KCIK? j000 HAX!!11

And sometimes, they try to have you voted off the server, just to prove how mature they are.

It has to be said, that people who complain loudly about being shot, are usually people who are incapable of using the guns effectively. They're usually not very good with the sabre either, come to think of it. Guys, if you just want to pretend you're a Jedi, there are plenty of plastic lightsabres on the market.



If however, you're really serious about winning games, (and why would you complain unless you wish to win?) an acceptance of the reality of the game is necessary. There are guns (astonishingly) on guns FFA servers. If you don't use them, chances are you'll lose. If you lose because you haven't bothered to learn how to use the guns, then it's your own fault! Don't blame the guy who just shot you.

Actually I just realised I'm tired of the whole subject. Bedamned to those who bandy insulting terms about like "gunwh0re," because it's all sour grapes. My last ever word on the subject.


[FW] Spider AL
--
Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 04-10-2002, 05:43 PM   #80
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-It boggles my mind that some people are SO ompatient that they can't stand to run across the map with force speed on or even at the regular pace.

-"Bunny hopping" you don't like the term because you're not supposed to. Its a form of insult. You call it strafe jumping... people who don't like it call it bunny hopping.

- "JK2 is a first person shooter.. you know what that means? It means it isn't a Star Wars movie.. it's an action game, about blowing stuff up and shooting things. Sure, there's lightsaber action in there too, but the essence of the Dark Forces series has always been the first person shooter. "

Those of us who are against strafe jumping are against it because we feel it ruins the ambience of the game. This IS a first person shooter but its a fps called JEDI KNIGHT. If you were to strafe jump in Quake I wouldn't give a crap because the game isnt based around a certain reality which JEDI KNIGHT is. The whole reason that the majority of us bought this game is because it is Star Wars affiliated not just because we wanted a new FPS. We don't want to role play anything but we certainly want the image of the Star Wars world to be upheld and a bunch of guys continually leaping about to move faster is, sadly, not part of the Star Wars image.
Now I personally can accept the fact that those of you who choose to use it do. I don't think that it should be in the game due to balance issues but regardless, if you want to use it, go right ahead. But don't be suprised if you are on a server and find yourself booted or that most of the other players have left... and don't chalk it up to the fact that you think we can't handle your 133t strafe-jumping skills... we just find your ridiculous antics irritating.


Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter.
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