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Old 04-10-2002, 05:47 PM   #81
Craggeh
 
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Booted for strafe jumping?

The day that happens is the day I start to really question the servers I play on...


... ¬¬
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Old 04-10-2002, 05:58 PM   #82
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Maybe you should.... if you came my game and started strafe-jumping... I MAY boot you. Depends how I'm feeling. People certainly don't HAVE to let you play if they don't want to.

As I said ... I think it looks ridiculous and I find it irritating. I might boot you. And don't misunderstand that as meaning I find it more difficult to kill you. I have no trouble killing bunny hoppers in Quake and I am sure the same will hold true for JKO.

You should question who you're playing with. Some people just aren't in it for the win but the fun and the atmosphere and the argument that strafe-jumping makes you a more effective player just doesn't hold water with those types because they are looking for fun and not kills.

In the Rune community there were a lot of people that I played with that were in it for a good solid fight and not for the kills... a lot of people. Even if they lost a fight they might rave about it because they had fun. That didn't make them any less skilled as players, it just means their priorities are in a different place.


Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter.
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Old 04-10-2002, 06:04 PM   #83
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*sigh*

I don't see strafe jumping as a crazy advantage - it's habit. I don't strafe jump to gain the upper hand, I do it because it gets me around the map faster, which means I'm in the action more, which means ... *GASP* more FUN!

I love a close fight - win or lose I'll come out of it having enjoyed it - hindsight will also help me find flaws in how I was playing and next time maybe get that final jab/swipe/shot.

Generalisation... ¬¬


... ¬¬
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Old 04-10-2002, 06:15 PM   #84
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wow.this is getting heated

I think a big problem here is a misunderstanding. I think the majority here are not saying strafe-jumping is a hack or a cheat or even unfair. I think the majority of people are saying it looks silly. We want the game to look and feel diffrent from other First person shooters thus the desire to get rid of it. There is some players in here who love the Star Wars universe and play the game for that look and feel of Star Wars. They don't want the game to be like every other shooter. I personally don't care about it but I do feel as if "it's not quite right" to see someone jumping down the Bespin shafts jumping every second. I can do it and do it well but I tend to refrain because I want to preserve that semi-real feel to the game. It is a technique (not a hard one though) and it is probably something the developers do themselves. It is in every first-person shooter I can think of so I can't see them missing it. But I must say again don't people want to do something different than all the other First person shooters? Really if you insist on using guns and strafe jumping then how different is it from other ones? Let's face it the saber is underpowered compared to the alt-fire of almost every weapon so you can own with guns only but then it really it makes the game no different from the Quakes and UT and every other shooter. Sometimes I think people just jumped on Outcast to show off the skills in other shooters cause the know the common techniques. It's almost like jumping on newb servers. You know you will win with some of these techniques so why bother even coming here. Let's break the mold.


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Old 04-10-2002, 06:37 PM   #85
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I just love this

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Old 04-10-2002, 06:37 PM   #86
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Really if you insist on using guns and strafe jumping then how different is it from other ones?
I didn't see any force powers in quake or ut O_o;

I think that's why I enjoy Outcast so much - it's different and it has a large userbase. Mods that really pushed the boat out in other games were shunned most of the time O_o

Oh, and the fact that it's Star Wars related helps a tiny bit, too


... ¬¬
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Old 04-10-2002, 07:24 PM   #87
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Right, we have Force powers, so instead of hopping around like some hardcore l33t d34thm4tchz0r in Quake, people hop around like some hardcore l33t d34thm4tchz0r in the Star Wars Universe. Just because they traded in rocket-whoring for grip-whoring doesn't make me feel "wow, STAR WARS!"
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Old 04-10-2002, 07:28 PM   #88
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Grip whoring isn't nearly a problem... nor is rocket whoring in any other game O_o; Not that that's particularly on topic - moving swiftly on...

What would make you feel "WOW! STAR WARS!"? It seems like some people are never happy unless they're complaining...


... ¬¬
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Old 04-10-2002, 07:30 PM   #89
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Bunny Hopping vs Strafe jumping

There are two styles of speeding up using jumps. The first is bunny hopping, and that is pretty much relegated to Quake 1 engines. In this, You get a boost either from a conc grenade, a rocket, or some explosive, OR you can use a ramped surface to give you an extra edge of speed. Then, using ONLY the strafe left or right keys and the mouse (along with jump, duh) you hop along, using the mouse to steer you. You can get a ton more speed with this than you can with the Q3 engine. Bunny hopping is something the oldschoolers know of more.

Strafe jumping is the function in the Q3 engine where you can use that little boost of speed you get at a strafe and continue it while hopping. However, the Q3 engine (and JKII, consequently) have retained the ability to use an angled surface to catch speed. Find a hill, jump off the top with no force boost, and when you hit, jump again immediately. Notice how fast you get going - and how you can continue moving that fast as long as you hop.


The only time I use it is in FFA games with duels where I want to get to the action quickly. =] I feel the same about CTF as some of you - it just doesn't feel right to me in this game.


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Old 04-10-2002, 07:35 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by Craggeh
FC has a very valid point - if it's a sad world we live in where the need to win comes above all else - how the heck are league games supposed to go?

That's taking it to extremes, but the need to win is always primary priority in a team game - striving to win IS fun! For me, anyway ^_^
Yes, he does, but as he pointed out there is a difference between public and league games. If the league spirit is about win, win, win (and I haven't ever taken part in it so I don't really know) then that's fair enough, since the organisation is about victory. Public servers are something else though. Please don't bring that mentality into those areas, that is what I ask. Keep it in one place.

Quote:
Originally posted by hughJ
-other games were brought up in reference to bunnyhopping.. speaking of it in poor light in other games in addition to JO.. I was merely pointing out that its case isn't the same in every game, as variables such as game balance change from game to game...
Ok, but my comments are directed at JO. as I said, I don't care what they do in Quake.

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-perhaps technique 'can' be related to strategy, but it doesn't need to always be..
It is always related to it. What you do will be related to how you do it, and vv.

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... bunnyhopping doesn't upset personal game balance (as anyone can do it if they learn how), but that doesn't opt it out from the issues of gameplay balance (which exist in JO)...
Of course it does in JO. It nulls the use of force speed.

Quote:
-I was pointing out that there is some validity in learning new techniques...
I know that is what you said, but you started off trying to point out that bunny-hopping is not a hack. Well, as I said before, neither is spawnkilling and for some that is fun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
Bunny-hopping... Frankly, who cares? No, I'll rephrase... who SHOULD care? It's been said before, but Whether it's in or out, it's one of a thousand tricks that players will use to increase their effectiveness. Removing strafe-jumping won't allow poor players to win, nor will it disadvantage better players. So... There. It'll make no difference to me.
Perhaps you should play more CTY. That is where it seriously annoys me; being unable to catch up with someone who has stolen it because he's just as fast as you on speed.

Quote:
Likewise, those who bought JO "just because it's Star Wars" seem rather silly to me. I mean, I would assume people would buy a game because they believe they may have fun actually playing it. Call me crazy.
Yes and no, but as we can see for many people here the Star Wars element is important... it certainly was for me. I don't own, or plan to own, Quake (1,2,3), Unreal or Half-life. If the game looked ****ty, then I wouldn;t have touched it, but there is no doubt in my mind that the Star Wars theme drew man, many people.

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but please, don't command other players to conform to your view of what the game should be about. [i]
That's the problem, because I, and others, when experiencing some guy bunny-hopping have visions of Quake being "forced" upon me. The argument goes both ways. Ignore the issue of whether you think it should be in the game, but whether bunnyhopping is part of the Star Wars universe. Then your next question is whether you think the game should try and conform to that universe.

Quote:
As for me, I've become very tired of reading insulting texts from people I kill with the - (Insert Gun Here.) -
Well you have my support here. There is more to Star Wars than sabres and I do enjoy using the guns. I also enjoying battling, with my sabre, gunners. As a child I never wanted to be a Jedi anyway. I was always for those Stormtroopers.

Guns should be easier to play with anyway. It should take some skill for a Jedi to be wielded in battle so well that s/he can be used against all gunners, but once at that level they should be a mighty force. From one of the e-mail replies from Raven I've seen we might get this with the banning of force powers for gunners.
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Old 04-10-2002, 07:44 PM   #91
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Don't flame me because i want to know/learn this but how do you bunnyhop? Is it running forward + jumping and the second you hit the ground you tap the jump key again and again and again?
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Old 04-10-2002, 08:05 PM   #92
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Raven and strafe jump

The question of having strafe jumping in Jk2:JO should be answered fairly easily by Raven.

I would just like to know if they want to keep it or not, so i can decide if I want to learn to do it.
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Old 04-10-2002, 08:08 PM   #93
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Public servers, to my way of thinking, and this comes from my background in Training and teaching Tribes/Clans are filled with a wide variety of players. Some good, some "elite" some brand new, just opened the box, and many average players. My goal is to have fun, and by doing so to allow the other people to have fun on a server as well. (I am speaking in the context of the team based modes of play)

In Tribes 2 this meant no baserape with small teams on public servers and no turtling with the flag. It isn't a situation where you can mount a coordinated offense and defense. You are lucky if you can get 2-3 people to even acknowledge your presence.

The trick is to guage the other players on the server and their relative strengths and weaknesses. If they are ALL wearing clan tags and ALL strafe-jumping then by all means, do it. If there are a bunch of people named: padawan, chances are the only thing you'll do is piss off some newcomers to the game and turn them off to a gametype that you like.

In the end it's about being observant and polite. If you want to foster a community and help newcomers to become average players that will stick around, you answer questions, you listen to them, point out mistakes in a polite manner, teach them rules of ettiquette.

Strafe-jumping isn't wrong in and of itself. It is the use of it in specific situations that seems to annoy people. It has it's place, the trick is to figure out the proper time and place for it.
By my book, public servers would not be the place for it.


The contractors on the second Death Star knew the risks when they took the job. All contractors have to take these things into consideration when they take a job--Clerks
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Old 04-10-2002, 08:33 PM   #94
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Nice

Excellent post Fyunch.

It's about the entire community, not *just* win at all costs.
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Old 04-10-2002, 11:26 PM   #95
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Just something I want to say.

How do you feel it is not a cheat? It exploits a bug in the physics of the engine. A cheat like "wallhack" exploits a bug by using a differen't file which allows you to see through, you people seem to think that because it's a bug and not a program, it's ok to explot.

Lets, just for kicks say there WAS an invincibility crouch-jump bug, would people use it? You better believe people would, because it would give them a huge advantage, not being able to die. This gives an advantage of speed, if you dont want to take so long to run (which really is NOT that far, and if your so impatient, well put points into force speed instead of being an ******* and cheating.)

It really astounds me at how ignorant people can be, ignorant to the fact that it's BUG ABUSE, the SAME as a cheat, you use it so you get that many more points into other things so you dont need to use force speed?

Hows that right? The whole point of the force system is so people have to pick and choose, you dont want to wait to get to a battle? You put those points into force speed, instead of putting them into grip/drain. You know it's wrong, yet you do it anyways, I just cant express how much it astounds me.

I know I'll probably get what I've said used against me, and probably have contridicted my self, but I'm too lazy to check it. This is my opinion, and I'd really like someone to change my opinion so I can see it from your point of view.
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Old 04-10-2002, 11:52 PM   #96
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Perhaps you should play more CTY. That is where it seriously annoys me; being unable to catch up with someone who has stolen it because he's just as fast as you on speed.
Why does it annoy you? I presume it's because you want to win. If you want to win, bunny-hop right on after him, until the day Raven decides to remove it. Perhaps you have difficulty learning the bunny-hop? If not, it must be a "moral" thing. I may point out, nowhere in the Star Wars universe do the words "Thou shalt not Bunny-Hop" appear. If you don't like bunny-hopping then by all means, petition Raven to remove it... but if you want to win your CTY matches in the meantime, perhaps you should bunny-hop.

And I play quite enough CTY thank you. Perhaps you should play more Quake.

Quote:
but as we can see for many people here the Star Wars element is important... it certainly was for me
That's your decision, your prerogative. However, don't be so disdainful of people who actually want to play the game as opposed to your preferred sort of person, the Jedi-wannabe.

Quote:
I don't own, or plan to own, Quake (1,2,3), Unreal or Half-life.
That's your loss. They're all uniquely interesting games. Unreal and HL especially have enjoyable single-player campaigns too. It strikes me that you appear closed-minded on the subject of First Person Shooters. Again, your loss.

Quote:
Ignore the issue of whether you think it should be in the game, but whether bunnyhopping is part of the Star Wars universe.
I personally have no interest as to whether it is included in the game, or not. It's entirely irrelevant to me.

As to whether hopping is part of the SW universe, I might say for a start, that the "force crystals" mentioned in JO, and popularised throughout the SW literary community, are tenuous at best, as the Lucasian canon does not focus on the inner workings of lightsabres, and at no point suggests that the Force powers the sabres. JK and JO are full of little oddities that are arguably not part of the SW canon. I for one don't care. I don't care whether Stormtroopers are clones, or whether Vader's gauntlets are "supar powar glove0rz." I find the game fun. Fun, being the most important aspect of a game. By picking out aspects you wish to change, you merely tell me that you're not happy with the game as a whole. In which case, you'll be here, picking at loose threads (like bunny-hopping) for all eternity, because there will ALWAYS be oddities in the game's engine that fast-learning players will use to their advantage. I think there are better uses for one's time, like actually playing the game, and having fun playing it, while accepting any little foibles it thrusts upon you as part of the game. By all means, if bunny-hopping is ruining your game, petition Raven to remove it. But you must draw the line somewhere. You can't petition them to remove... say... the Strong sabre stance.

And some people would like to, you know.

Quote:
Then your next question is whether you think the game should try and conform to that universe.
Actually, no, that question is so nonsensical it beggars belief.

Quote:
we might get this with the banning of force powers for gunners.
Ah, my next question has arrived: why would anyone wish gun-users to be disempowered, unless they dislike the practice of gun-using? What a ludicrous idea that truly is, penalising players who actually want to play the mode the server is set to play.

Frankly, those who complain about so-called "imbalances" between guns and sabres merely wish for their particular force config and playing style, to be the most powerful. Sabreists want the lightsabre to be uber-powerful. Fast stance users want the fast stance to be uber-powerful. Force drain users want Force Drain to be uber-powerful, I mean, good lord! It's a game! Play the game! Make mods for the game if you must, but don't force your view of what the game should be like onto others! Let's make no mistake, you're talking about changing the game ITSELF, seemingly just to spite the gunners, and this barely TWO WEEKS after the official release.

I say, LEARN the most powerful config, that works best against the most opponents, and use it. Anything else is laziness and malevolent apathy. Plastic sabres ahoy.


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 04-11-2002, 12:06 AM   #97
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I noticed this in a CTY game the other day on Warring Factions. I was sniping defensively and was at the spot where the disruptor rifle spawns. Most people didn't make it to the flag with me up their. And if they did they didn't bother to kill me. So after they started running back it was a very easy shot in the back to finish them off. Since after you get the flag their is no force power whatsoever that you can use its a real easy target. So one time a group comes up and then I get the group to 1 and the last one had Force speed on when he got the Yaslarmi. And then he started bunny hoppying across the map and was incredibly hard to hit and at first I swore it was force speed because he was moving just as fast as he was before he got the Yaslarmi. It kinda reminds me of skiing back in Tribes 1 Also when playing CTY it is extremly easy to bunny hop after you have taken the Yaslarmi because their is no force usage. Therefore you don't risk force jumping instead of regular jumping and screwing your momentum up. Not too many people can do this but its not TOO hard to kill them, just have to have a little better aim


I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather...not sreaming and yelling like those in his car
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Old 04-11-2002, 01:58 AM   #98
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If I'm not mistaken strafe-jumping was originally a bug way back when but was intentionally left in Quake 3 because it had become a standard and a favorite by the time quake three came out. But don't mistake this game for Q3. Just because it shares its engine doesn't mean its the same game or should be treated the same. In fact, I long for an FPS that differs itself from the norm... one with some atmosphere, a story or a background and this game should be just that. Not just another FPS.

I don't want to be a jedi and I don't want to roleplay... but being able to suspend a little disbelief for a little while and immerse myself in another environment is just what I want to do. And thats not easily accomplished when some guy hip hops across the map like he's got Flubber™ on his boots.

-"but don't force your view of what the game should be like onto others!" -Spider Al
Spider, I know you've said that you don't care if strafe-jumping is in or out but would you be upset if people kicked you from a game or all left as soon as you came in and started strafe-jumping? Maybe... maybe not but I know that there would be more than one person to come here and post about how all the big losers left because he/she was strafe-jumping. And yet, the people who refuse to play with him/her are just trying to play the game the way they want it to be played. They don't want strafe-jumping FORCED on them either. I personally don't give a crap if people do it. It all depends on my mood. On the whole I would prefer it wasn't there but if its going to upset so many people to have it removed... if they simply can't do without it in one game... then they should expect people who don't want to deal with it to not play with them when they use it. And that should be the end of it.

Agree to disagree. Perhaps a codeword... if you don't want people strafe-jumping on your server/in your game then add NSJ (no strafe-jump) at the end of the server name or something we can all agree on. Compromise anyone? I certainly hope some of us know how to do it....


Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter.
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:16 AM   #99
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Spider Al

I feel compelled to reply, since you put me as the subject of your post, and then proceeded to quote someone else for the entire thing

I see where you're coming from on this issue. It's pretty much a matter of how "little" you think a particular oddity is, and that will be directly proportional to how much you either like or could care less about the star wars universe. The whole Dark Forces series is pretty unique as far as FPS'es go. Neither Quake, UT nor even HL took place in a setting that was pretty much pre-defined. No where in the forums discussing the storylines or mods or skins of those games will you ever see the word 'canon' even brought up.

Picture this: you're playing the infinite reincarnation of the venerable football series Madden 2003 on your PS2. Funny thing is though there's an exploit in the game that lets you throw a ball 100 yds when your QB jumps to the side and pump fakes before throwing. Is this a problem? Depends on how much you care. To someone who is primarily a baseball fan (sorry for the American slant) and could care less about football, probably not. They're just playing the game to have fun. To someone whose idea of fun is to stay within the realm of possibility for that environment, it is a problem. That's kind of what we have here.

Note that you can want things to 'jive' with SW movies without being a closed minded fanboy. The appropriate term I think that is escaping us all is "continuity". You can have continuity without incorporating every small detail of an environment, in this case the world of Star Wars. But elements like bunny-hopping totally break that continuity.

************************************************** *
quote:
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Then your next question is whether you think the game should try and conform to that universe.
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Actually, no, that question is so nonsensical it beggars belief.



***********************************
Actually, that question isn't so nonsensical. Please enlighten us as to why a game set in a particular setting doesn't have to adhere to that setting at all? Does a football game not have to take place on a football field? If a basketball video game comes out, and it takes place on a baseball field (or cricket field for the European crowd), I guess other people can't complain as long as you find it fun, heh?

TDS
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Old 04-11-2002, 05:18 AM   #100
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My favourite goofy pro bunny argument above is the 'If they bunny hop away from then bunny after them' line. This one amuses me immensely. Kind of like the best way to combat an aimbot user is to get an aimbot. Duh duh duh.

Now I've played pretty much every FPS game there is. And I think we all want JK2 to be different. ---Quoting "That's your decision, your prerogative. However, don't be so disdainful of people who actually want to play the game as opposed to your preferred sort of person, the Jedi-wannabe".---- It's pretty clear you disdain those people that are jedi-wannabe's so don't be surprised when they don't exactly want to bend over backwards in bringing these questionable "skills" (looks at the bind to do it and thinks "skill"???) into a game I think is fair to say was designed for them.

I really don't want to see what happened to games that allowed this to happen to JK2. It looks like it has a bright future with the next patch as many of my complaints are seeming to be corrected.

PS. Jiro Kage I don't know where you got the idea that bunny hopping is only bunny hopping if started with a rocket powered speed up. It's always just been the another term for strafe jumping. And a usefull one too as it's clearer to describe what it does than how to do it.
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Old 04-11-2002, 06:32 AM   #101
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Exclamation

Interesting discussion... again
I've seen these pop-up so many times after quake(world). My take: Originally bunnyhopping was same kind of bug as rocket/granade/conc jumping. It abuses physics engine but since it's been around so long, it's been evolved to "feature" status in quake based games.

I've always sucked in bunnyhopping but I still like it in games. It requres skill to use and if player is skilled enough to use it, more power to him. Btw, can you get even higher speeds in JK2 when you bunnyhop while speed power is on and gain even higher speeds ?

I think I played against HughJ (in TFC) when he was in NULL... I bet he rememebers times when HWs moved as fast as Scouts in TF
Maybe that was bit too much (some still argue) and maybe Devs could neft bunnyhopping little so you couldn't get same advantage as speed power. I don't know, I have played too few MP matches and I haven't even seen bunnyhopping in action in JK2.


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Old 04-11-2002, 07:42 AM   #102
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Comparing JK2 to a football... let me rephrase that and retain my English identity ^_^, an "American Fotball" game just doesn't work.

Football is reality - we... well, you can see it day in and day out, know exactly what happens where, when and how and what doesn't happen... ever.

Star Wars is science fiction, it was created in a chap's mind for goodness sake - it isn't real, you can't say what would or wouldn't happen - if George Lucas wished it everyone could be strafe jumping all over in Episode 3... not that it's gonna happen, but I'm sure you get the point.

If you really wanted it to be super "realistic", I'm sure you'd argue with a big bunch of jedi knights diving into an arena and slogging it out to see who could get the most points - or teams of lightsaber wielding stormtroopers running back and forth trying to nab a blue flag.

*sigh* - I didn't come to the forums to argue about guns / grip users / strafe jumping...

*zips his mouth up on the subject*


... ¬¬
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Old 04-11-2002, 08:15 AM   #103
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I've agreed with pretty much everything SpiderAL has said, but I'm gonna state my opinion also.

The star wars fanboys are the ones that are complaining the most. They heard the hype, they eagerly awaited the release, and when they finally got their hands on it and started playing MP a revelation struck them! "I suck!" Instead of training with other FPS, honing your skills so you could win, you were too busy watching the trilogy over and over shouting "Use the force Luke!"

They are the ones who think they deserve to win just cause they only use a lightsaber.

Instead of adapting to tactics deemed "cheap", they started whining. I've whined about a bunch of things, but I stopped once I realized, they're just playing the game, better than me, so they're not the problem, I am.

Many of these "jedi-wannabes" would be content with everyone joining a server then sitting there with our thumbs up our butts going "Well...wha...well I can't do that...a real jedi wouldn't do that."
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Old 04-11-2002, 08:37 AM   #104
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I may point out, nowhere in the Star Wars universe do the words "Thou shalt not Bunny-Hop" appear.
Of course, nowhere in the Star Wars universe does it make any reference to jumping around like an idiot which makes you move faster than normal.

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Perhaps you should play more CTY. That is where it seriously annoys me; being unable to catch up with someone who has stolen it because he's just as fast as you on speed.
I agree with that, people bunny hopping once they've got the Ysalamiri is annoying as hell, especially when they get up to if not faster than the speed of your force run.

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Why does it annoy you? I presume it's because you want to win. If you want to win, bunny-hop right on after him, until the day Raven decides to remove it.
Yeah 'bunny-hop right on after him', yep, that's all well and good to say, but when you get level 1 force jump by default, you can't bunny hop as effectively as you can when you get the ysalamiri. When you've got the ysalamiri, you don't have to worry about your force jumping at all, which will happen if you hold space bar just a bit too long.

Therefore, people with ysalamiri who bunny hop faster than people who can force run, and are able to do it easier than people who can still accidentally force jump, have a greater advantage in CTY games.

Bunny hopping does not suit this game (and yes, I know how to bunny hop perfectly fine thank you, I did play quake 3 and rocket arena, so its kind of a known skill), or the style of play.


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Old 04-11-2002, 08:55 AM   #105
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Originally posted by Spider AL

Why does it annoy you? I presume it's because you want to win.
Please don't put words in my mouth. It annoys me because a) I believe it is cheating and b) it is not part of the Star Wars "spirit". I am certainly not a Star Wars fan-boy. But you'd know if you'd read my previous posts.

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Perhaps you have difficulty learning the bunny-hop?
If you read my posts you'd see that I've already stated how easy it is to pick up. I can do it with little problem, but I don't.

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but if you want to win your CTY matches in the meantime, perhaps you should bunny-hop.
This is the problem we have. You're one of the win, win, win mindset. You have to appreciate that there are people who play for fun and to be involved in a limited, but as close to as possible, Star Wars universe. I have no problem losing, perhaps you should learn to accept that too.

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That's your decision, your prerogative. However, don't be so disdainful of people who actually want to play the game as opposed to your preferred sort of person, the Jedi-wannabe.
I've played Unreal and all the Quakes and they didn't appeal to me... quite simple. And where have I been disdainful? You sure enjoy putting words in my mouth. I simply said I have no interest as to what happens in those games.

As for the Jedi-wannabe comment.... again, you don't seem to be reading my posts. I suggest you back and have a look at what I've actually said.

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By picking out aspects you wish to change, you merely tell me that you're not happy with the game as a whole.
Please stop putting words in my mouth. I've never said that. The game is great fun, I am merely arguing against a certain feature which I see as a bug.

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In which case, you'll be here, picking at loose threads (like bunny-hopping) for all eternity, because there will ALWAYS be oddities in the game's engine that fast-learning players will use to their advantage. I think there are better uses for one's time, like actually playing the game, and having fun playing it, while accepting any little foibles it thrusts upon you as part of the game.
lol. Ohhh the irony. Just look at what you've said and then realise what you've done.

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By all means, if bunny-hopping is ruining your game, petition Raven to remove it. But you must draw the line somewhere. You can't petition them to remove... say... the Strong sabre stance.

And some people would like to, you know.
That's their business, not mine. I can appreciate it if they come up with a good reason, but simply arguing it, e.g. bunny-hopping here, is there and thus is ok is a weak argument.

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Actually, no, that question is so nonsensical it beggars belief.
No point in answering this.

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Frankly, those who complain about so-called "imbalances" between guns and sabres merely wish for their particular force config and playing style, to be the most powerful.


Do you not see the irony in your posts? By simply defending such settings you are yourself imposing your values upon others. Your arguing that it is alright to distort the Star Wars universe. These games are built on players' responses. Perhaps you should be posting this in every thread requesting changes telling people to shut up... I hope you will. If we don't like something then we voice our concerns.

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I say, LEARN the most powerful config, that works best against the most opponents, and use it.
Sigh.... it is a sad world we live in with so many obsessed with winning.

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Football is reality - we... well, you can see it day in and day out, know exactly what happens where, when and how and what doesn't happen... ever.
Well that's the end of fantasy as we know it. Even imagined worlds have rules and laws and that is what makes them so interesting. I guess using your argument it is no problem having laser guns in Lord of the Rings then.

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Instead of training with other FPS, honing your skills so you could win, you were too busy watching the trilogy over and over shouting "Use the force Luke!"
Actually I was too busy outside enjoying the sunshine to focus my time on video games "honing my skills".
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Old 04-11-2002, 09:00 AM   #106
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Damn FWB, like Joel Siegel, you're a quote *****, though not in the same meaning. You just like picking apart everything someone says.
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Old 04-11-2002, 09:07 AM   #107
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Originally posted by VaderJM
Damn FWB, like Joel Siegel, you're a quote *****, though not in the same meaning. You just like picking apart everything someone says.
It helps people recall what I'm replying to. I've had too many experiences where people keep contradicting themselves or get mightly confused at what is said. It seems Spider AL has got lost part of the way. Apart from which, it is the way one debates. If you don't like the format I advise you stay away from political forums. You'll be in for a nasty shock.

Besides which, you wrote the paragraph, not me.
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Old 04-11-2002, 09:26 AM   #108
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...but when you get level 1 force jump by default, you can't bunny hop as effectively as you can when you get the ysalamiri. When you've got the ysalamiri, you don't have to worry about your force jumping at all, which will happen if you hold space bar just a bit too long.

Therefore, people with ysalamiri who bunny hop faster than people who can force run, and are able to do it easier than people who can still accidentally force jump, have a greater advantage in CTY games...

...yes, I know how to bunny hop perfectly fine thank you...
Hah. This is complete rubbish If you knew how to strafe jump perfectly fine, you wouldn't be taking off into a level one force jump at all - once you've mastered even the basic strafe jump it's childsplay to string them into a chain without force jumping. As for not being able to keep up with the ysalamiri runner with force run enabled...

Are you crazy? A force jump whilst force running is all you'll ever need to catch one of those guys O.o some people need to work on their skills before complaining ^_^


... ¬¬
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Old 04-11-2002, 09:36 AM   #109
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I would never go to a political forum. That is completely futile.

Another, kind of unrelated thing, how come whenever someone doesn't win they say "Well, I'm just trying to have fun, unlike you, the win at all costs type." As far as I know, the title of the game is Jedi outcast, not Jedi loser (but enjoys it anyway). Winning is always gonna be fun.
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Old 04-11-2002, 09:57 AM   #110
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Oh jeez! First of all, strafe jumping doesn't make you "win." It only makes you faster... not invincible. Not ONE of us has complained about how we lose all the time. We have had issues with it causing an imbalance in the game and that its taking its toll on the atmosphere of the game but not that we continually lose to you.
I find your logic to be extremely assumptive. Complaint=loser? WhatEVER dude.


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Old 04-11-2002, 10:28 AM   #111
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I said it was unrelated sort of.

Besides, I don't even bunnyhop, haven't figured out how to do it yet, and doubt I'd use it if I could.
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Old 04-11-2002, 11:03 AM   #112
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Yeah 'bunny-hop right on after him', yep, that's all well and good to say, but when you get level 1 force jump by default, you can't bunny hop as effectively
This is incorrect. Bunny-hopping is a technique people use regardless of force level, all it takes is a little practice.

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It annoys me because a) I believe it is cheating and b) it is not part of the Star Wars "spirit". I am certainly not a Star Wars fan-boy. But you'd know if you'd read my previous posts.
Cheating, aka hacking, is the manipulation of a game's files/code to give an advantage to the cheater. Strafe-Jumping is a bug exploit. The fact that you can even confuse the two is laughable. Bugs can be exploited by everyone without altering the game in any way.

Not that I use bunny-hopping myself, as I've said before, it's irrelevant to me.

And, with your insistance that JO conform to your idea of what "Star wars should be about," you are making it clear exactly how much of a "fanboy" you are.

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I can do it with little problem, but I don't.
Then that's your problem mate.

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This is the problem we have. You're one of the win, win, win mindset.
Oh please, you wouldn't even BE here complaining about bunny-hopping if you were only in it for the gameplay. No, you're here ranting about how evil it is, because you want to win, but can't, and bunny-hopping is your excuse of the day.

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lol. Ohhh the irony.
I don't think you truly understand the definition of irony, my friend. And no, you can't extract it from any Alanis Morissette songs.

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No point in answering this.
Good, since it wasn't a question, but a statement. Now here's a question you haven't answered, regarding your stance on gun-users. Do you wish gun-users to be disempowered by having their Force removed in FFAs? It certainly seemed that way in your previous post.

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By simply defending such settings you are yourself imposing your values upon others.
Defending what "settings" exactly? Are you referring to the bunny-hopping? As I recall, I stated twice that "It's irrelevant to me." It's irrelevant to me, because I have better things to do than to complain about it. And people who do complain about it, have ulterior motives for doing so.

What I have defended, and do defend, is the right of those who go onto a FF guns FFA server to use both Force powers and guns.

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Your arguing that it is alright to distort the Star Wars universe.
lol, unlike you my primary concern for the game is not whether Jedi Outcast "conforms to the Star Wars universe." Now you're really sounding like a fanboy.

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Sigh.... it is a sad world we live in with so many obsessed with winning.
Perhaps you're unaware that Jedi Outcast is... Shock horror - a game. Games are fun, but they also have winners and losers. Without a goal to accomplish, a game is no longer a game. And why do people want to win? Because winning is the goal of the game. Whoever reaches that goal first, gets a buzz.

Yes, I enjoy winning, I'd be a liar if I said I didn't. But somehow, I don't think I'm the one obsessed with it... Those who complain about the way in which others win a game, do so because they wished to win in his/her stead, and become obsessed.

If all you wanted out of Jedi Outcast was the opportunity to pretend to be a Jedi, you should be happy as a clam from the moment you start the game to the moment you end it, regardless of who wins. You are not happy as a clam however, so by a logical deduction, you wished to win. As I said previously, people who are so vehement about such bugs, tend to be the ones who cry the most sour grapes while losing.

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Actually I was too busy outside enjoying the sunshine to focus my time on video games "honing my skills".
I find this on the one hand perilously hard to believe, and on the other, merely a statement of the obvious.

It's obvious to me that you have neither the interest in, nor the dedication to JO to become one of the so called "elite." And that would be fine, if you weren't so bitter. However, your obsessive insistance that JO conform rigidly to the alleged rules of the Star Wars universe, show a level of commitment to Star Wars that makes the "busy outside" and "enjoying the sunshine" portions a little too hard to stomach.

However if we take it on face value, there remains only one thing to say:

Return to your enjoyment of the sunshine. Outside.

Spider AL
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As far as I know, the title of the game is Jedi outcast, not Jedi loser (but enjoys it anyway). Winning is always gonna be fun.
Absolutely priceless Vader, priceless.


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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 04-11-2002, 11:10 AM   #113
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OMG that is the funniest thing I have ever heard. Bug Exploitation is cheating, full stop! The isnt any argument that you could put up to promote your points of view.

Take the Grenade Cheat in RtCW for example. That is a Bug Exploit and anyone implemementing this bug is CHEATING.
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Old 04-11-2002, 11:26 AM   #114
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The star wars fanboys are the ones that are complaining the most. They heard the hype, they eagerly awaited the release, and when they finally got their hands on it and started playing MP a revelation struck them! "I suck!"
Hahaha.yeahhhh. What is a fanboy anyways? Sounds sexist to me. Like most others who picked up this game I like FPS's AND SW. Sorry to burst your bubble but I don't suck. Yes I prefer using the saber, and I'm fairly good at it. I use guns too, and I'm pretty good at that too (9 years of FPS playing tends to have that affect on you)

"When I finally got my hands on it", the revelation that struck me was the imbalance between the guns and the saber, not that I suck. Winning with a saber is hard (mostly) and winning with guns is not (mostly). To SpiderAl and you VaderJM, this is perfectly acceptable (along with other FPS issues like bunny hopping/strafe-jumping) because to you, this game is a FPS first and a game based in a certain setting second. To a good chunk of the people who are playing this game, it is a Star Wars game first and an FPS second.

For the record, there isn't a single person here who thinks the SW universe is REAL for a second! But just because it isn't reality doesn't mean that you can disregard things that don't mesh with it. A game about Superman that uses Kryptonite as a way to give Superman strength instead of weakening him, well then it really isn't a game about Superman, is it? You're changing the rules? And what if in the next Batman and Robin movie that comes (side note: I hope another one never does) they cast Robin as 55 yr fat drunk guy. Hey it's not reality! Do whatever.

Look, I've been playing these types of games for a loooooong time, and not just FPS. Combat flight sims and space sims have a good on-line/mp aspect to them too. I've done the "winning uber alles" thing for a good deal of time, and eventually it became boring. Now instead of just trying to win, I've found that I have the most fun (in any game) trying to win in certain way, a challenging way. Using my Madden football analogy above, it's super damn easy to win if you choose a team like the Rams, but whats the real fun in that? I play as the Browns, one of the worse teams in there and in r/l, and try to make them the champs. It's a better affirmation of your skills to take a worse setup and win with that, than to take the most powerful setup and plow over. In this game, I try to stick to the saber, LJ setup. Yeah it contradicts my name, but when I signed up here, I had no idea how many people would be going the Dark Jedi route, and felt the first couple times I played that there weren't enough Light guys running around. Now I'm hooked. Interesting to note, most of the gun users you'll find choose the DS, I don't think I've yet to run across a primarily gun guy that was heal-whoring me

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Instead of adapting to tactics deemed "cheap", they started whining. I've whined about a bunch of things, but I stopped once I realized, they're just playing the game, better than me, so they're not the problem, I am
I've adapted to plenty of tactics that are "cheap" including the drain grip and throw, heavy stance jumpers, arm skin users, etc. Absorb/guns for the first, light stance mobility for the second, and arm skin users you just need to have good eyes

I'll quit my so called "whining" now. If you want to bunny jump, whatever, go for it. You want to call people fanboys go for it. I highly anticipate the next FPS coming out, cuz the ppl left will be the ones who actually do play for fun (my opinion).

TDS
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Old 04-11-2002, 11:36 AM   #115
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Lets put it this way, what if someone exploited a bug which enabled you to fly in spectator mode, and kill people, go through walls, capture the flag, yadda yadda yadda...much like the Spectator Hack for Half-life.

But this was simply by using the games engine instead of another program...would you deem this fair? And by all accounts should be used? If you would, then you have problems.

The whole reason ID left it in the system in the first place, was because they didn't know how to fix it when they first discovered it was there. But when they did find out, and wanted to, people whined about not being able to exploit the game anymore, so they left it in. If they had known how to fix it when they first discovered it, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The issue at hand isn't weather it's fair or not, but weather the game was meant to be played with it, and since no where in star wars do you see idiots hopping around like monkeys, I'd have to say no, it wasn't meant for people to jump around.

I dont even know why I bother replying to threads, it's not like I can change anyones mind or anything. As in my before post, I'm sure I've contradicted myself and whatnot, but I dont care, I know what I mean .
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Old 04-11-2002, 11:38 AM   #116
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Oh please, you wouldn't even BE here complaining about bunny-hopping if you were only in it for the gameplay. No, you're here ranting about how evil it is, because you want to win, but can't, and bunny-hopping is your excuse of the day.
First of all, as I have previously stated, strafe-jump does not = win. Second and more importantly, I HATE it when people assume that you MUST be like them. Just because a chap is complaining about strafe-jumping doesn't mean that he is complaining because he loses. Your assumption is insulting and ignorant.

Who gives a crap that the guy may be a fan of Star Wars!!!? I am willing to bet that a majority of people who bought this game did so because of the Star Wars license. Is it then so unreasonable to understand that for them to see a bunch of guys bouncing around a level makes the whole experience kind of cheesy?

When it comes down to it neither of you will ever agree with the other so why don't you just not play with each other? Just stay away from each other, play with people who you enjoy playing with and end of discussion. This is going nowhere.


Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter.
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Old 04-11-2002, 12:11 PM   #117
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I think a lot of people have given a very valid reason to use strafe jumping: to get to the action faster. I've seen that mentioned a couple of times, and I agree totally on that. JK2 levels are pretty big, and when I die and respawn at the other side of the level where no action is, I'd like to get to the action ASAP.... Cuz action=fun fun fun!!
running towards the action takes too long, so I either roll my way over there, or strafe jump. Both look stupid, but I'm not spending half an hour running a marathon at JK2's normal snail speed to get into the action.

So either leave strafejumping in, or make us run faster.. (or even make the levels smaller lol)... just don't leave us with that slow running!!

and please don't tell me to use force_speed, because I am one of those many players who plays on NF-servers.

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Old 04-11-2002, 12:24 PM   #118
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Originally posted by Craggeh
Hah. This is complete rubbish If you knew how to strafe jump perfectly fine, you wouldn't be taking off into a level one force jump at all - once you've mastered even the basic strafe jump it's childsplay to string them into a chain without force jumping. As for not being able to keep up with the ysalamiri runner with force run enabled...

Are you crazy? A force jump whilst force running is all you'll ever need to catch one of those guys O.o some people need to work on their skills before complaining ^_^
I said I know how to strafe jump (which you didn't seem to read, or just ignored the fact that I said it), however, if I wanted to do mindless strafe jumping, getting the ysalamiri is an easier way to do it, because then I don't have to worry about holding space down just a little too long (which isn't too much of a problem, but if you've been jumping around crazily in a FFA game using force jump, it can happen ). Which I said in my post

I can strafe jump fairly easily (the joys of quake3 and ra3, where some of the maps are fairly huge). But why don't I mind strafe jumping in those? Because those games aren't based around any particular universe, or background. Whereas JK2 is. Strafe jumping does not suit the Star Wars universe, nor does it suit the gameplay of JK2.

And in regards to all the "fanboy" name calling thats happening in here, its funny that people think calling someone a Star Wars Fanboy is some awesome insult. It's not even insulting. Puh-lease.

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Take the Grenade Cheat in RtCW for example. That is a Bug Exploit and anyone implemementing this bug is CHEATING.
Wasn't that patched in 1.1....

Hrm, to fix the strafe jumping, all Raven would need to do is tweak strafe speeds a bit. At least, you'd think that'd fix it. But then would we have the strafe jumping people crying about that?


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Old 04-11-2002, 12:45 PM   #119
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"How do you feel it is not a cheat? It exploits a bug in the physics of the engine. A cheat like "wallhack" exploits a bug by using a differen't file which allows you to see through, you people seem to think that because it's a bug and not a program, it's ok to explot. Lets, just for kicks say there WAS an invincibility crouch-jump bug..."

as long as the technique doesn't upset gameplay balance to the point where it hurts the game, makes it less skilled, etc it's fine... it's probably arguable in JK2 whether or not bunnyhopping will seriously hurt gameplay... as it stands, it does have issues with the current implementation of force speed, so it probably will wind up as being more frowned upon than it is in Quake, etc... but one would really have to see how the competitive community in JK2 pans out with it being around.. if matches wind up losing something over this, then likely you'll have an answer as to whether or not this is good/bad for gameplay..

"Bug Exploitation is cheating, full stop! The isnt any argument that you could put up to promote your points of view."

bug exploiting doesn't always = cheating.. everything from rocket jumping, to concussion jumping (TF) were never originally intended to be there... but they were discovered and the gaming community wound up making a decision on a case-by-case scenerio as to whether or not the unintended result was something that deemed removal/fixing or at least tweaking in that specific game..

in TFC, bunnyhopping has since been toned down, so that class balance issues no longer are hurt.. in CS it was given a much more strict limitation, due to a much more fragile gameplay system..

I doubt that the double-jumping that exists in Quake2 was something that was thought up from the start, but after it was discovered, it was altered and developed more into a feature.. maps have been designed now to take advantage of it... it's even been intentionally added as a feature to Q3F...
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Old 04-11-2002, 01:21 PM   #120
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HughJ, thanks for not quoting every single thing I said, and insulting...(at least I dont THINK you insulted...)

You talk about hurting gameplay, what could hurt gameplay more, than being able to outrun everyone, when your not even supposed to have ANY force powers at all. (I'm refering to CTY) The whole point of CTY, was for people who wanted more of a challenge, there is NOT a challenge in someone getting the yasil...little anmial thingie guy, and hopping all the way back to base, with having 0 chance to stop him. I've never seen bunny hopping on any server except CTY, nor do I think it's impact is as strong, I think it's more the principle of the thing, rather than the act itself. (with the exception of CTY)

Bunny-hopping in Q3 is fine, it's accepted, theres nothing to base it on except blatant rocket spamming and such, in JK2, it's based on a universe, and you people using BH, talk about us not being happy with the way the game was meant.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeellooooooooooooooooooooooooo...your abusing a bug that wasn't meant to be in the game, and really ruins the atmosphere of the game for other people. In a sense, your forcing your own rules apon us, (bunny-hop or you get screwed) but there can be so much debate on what "forcing rules apon others" are.

You're obviously not happy with the game, since you want to abuse a bug in the engine, theres just so many points of view that can be taken, it's impossible to really end the debate.

Ugh, I'm probably speaking in gibberish, it's light outside, and I havn't been to bed....BLAH!
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