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Old 04-12-2002, 12:11 PM   #1
cj7816
 
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Kyle Katarn: Jedi Retard

Man, some the stuff in SP is so retarted. Like the fact that Kyle can't use force powers (specifically push and pull) under water or through breakaway grates!
And what's with Kyle not being able to use his lightsabre under water?! Hmmm... let's see... It can cut through just about anything, dismember an enemy in one slice, it's the most "eligant" weapon in the galaxy... but sorry, it won't work in water. Your "clumbsy and random" blasters will operate just fine in water but the lightsabre? ... sorry boys.

Maybe I'm being over-critical of Raven's efforts to balance gameplay. I'm just totally in love with the lightsabre and that's the only weapon that I ever want to use. Needless to say, Yavin Swamp is starting to tick me off.
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Old 04-12-2002, 12:22 PM   #2
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The lightsaber doesn't work underwater in Starwars, and thus, doesn't work underwater in JO.
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Old 04-12-2002, 12:27 PM   #3
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Correct, if you notice that if you go into water with the lightsaber and come out of it, the saber pops for a while since it just came out of the water, this was intentional since it is SW canon. You don't have a gripe with the game, your gripe is with George Lucas, but SW is his baby and he can do whatever he wants with it.


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Old 04-12-2002, 12:29 PM   #4
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Don't think I'd want to be underwater with a light sabre given how much energy those things seem to put out. Can you say "steaming boiled Jedi cutlets"? Although Blaster working underwater is pretty goofy too.
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Old 04-12-2002, 12:32 PM   #5
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Not quite. I pretty much dug into this lightsaber thing and it is nowhere stated anywhere in the SW canon that water would put out a lightsaber.

Let's see, if water would put out a lightsaber, then it might do so for two reasons:

a) it would seal all oxygen away so the 'flame' would die
b) it would lower the temperature so much that the saber goes out.

NEITHER OF IT IS THE CASE. Since lightsabers aren't fire. The aren't "light" in that sense either. And, although it might surprise you - they are not even HOT!

I can prove this with a plethora of movie scenes.

Lightsabers are neither dependent on surrounding air nor on temperature. There is simply no reason why water would put out a lightsaber.

Want me to prove it? Ask away, or simply believe me.

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Old 04-12-2002, 12:33 PM   #6
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the force powers ****** me off. when i got to get my lightsaber, it was just plain stupid. why the hell couldn't he just pull the damn thing out of the cage?!


DR: yah, i agree. lightsabres produce no heat until they come into contact with an object. the blade might as well not even exist until they make contact with something.

if they put out heat, that'd be pretty scwewy. i mean, those battles would be pretty damn hot.


:ity the raven::
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Old 04-12-2002, 12:38 PM   #7
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I think that if you ignite the lightsaber underwater that you turn that entire waterpool into one big lightsaber and fry yerself.
This may be reaching but wouldnt the technology exist to have a safety measure that detects water and disables the saber?

(I cant believe im discussing this)
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Old 04-12-2002, 12:42 PM   #8
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@Threetall

Well, that might be the case if one took the optical (i.e. light) approach to lightsabers, but since they aren't... although I cannot exactly tell what a saber would do underwater, I doubt that it'd influence water that way.

Oh yeah... ME<----- geekboy

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Old 04-12-2002, 12:43 PM   #9
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Threetall
Quote:
I think that if you ignite the lightsaber underwater that you turn into a flamer and fry yerself.

WTF dude, that was not very PC of you.


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Old 04-12-2002, 12:47 PM   #10
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since lightsabres dont exist and the way they work is completely made up aswell as from my own knowledge the crystals inside them dont xist so i think its pretty hard for either side to rgue with how they work dont work


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Old 04-12-2002, 12:49 PM   #11
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Lightsaber = fake.

Stop complaining.
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Old 04-12-2002, 12:49 PM   #12
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*cough*thecrystalsintherearemostlyirrelevant*cough *
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Old 04-12-2002, 01:01 PM   #13
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Ronin - you're sort of right at about it not being SW "canon" but apparently there is a deleted TPM scene where Obi-Wan falls into water with his sabre ignited and it "fuses". Qui-Gon then tells him off or calls him a lamer or something.

It was in the comic adaptation and novel apparently but never made it either into the movie or into the DVD cut scenes but there we go.

Personally I wasn't that bothered by it. Still, could be interesting for any future mods where action takes place under water...
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Old 04-12-2002, 01:03 PM   #14
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Post Geez

OMG, some of u guyz are real geeks.

I hate to see what u geeks would argue and complain about if SW didnt exist.

I say: SW has great stories, great movies, and great games . . . and it's all fiction . . . meant for entertainment, not criticism.
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Old 04-12-2002, 01:03 PM   #15
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Even though scenes were deleted from the movies to save time doesn't mean they aren't canon, George Lucas thought them up which therefore makes them cannon, they don't ignite in the game which has to be approved by Lucas which solidifies that viewpoint.


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Old 04-12-2002, 01:05 PM   #16
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The only cannon there is in SW is the information which comes from Georgey boy directly. There was a edited out scene in Episode 1 where Obi-Wan lands in water after escaping from the Trade Federation invasion force at the start and he gets his sabre wet and it wont work! That is why the next scene was Obi-Wan running from the STAPs and not doing what Qui-Gon did (using the sabre to deflect the lasers back at the STAPs). Then there was another edited-out scene about Qui-Gon lecturing Obi-Wan about "Don't wet your sabre blah blah blah")

I know for certain it was in the early drafts garunteed and I am 95% sure they were filmed but not left in the movie... I get "deja vous" about me actually seeing the scenes somewhere... It is driving me crazy trying to figure out where...

(5 min later)

Oh yeah and I know the sabre scenes where there now! I saw once on theforce.net some movie-pictures of Qui-Gon in mid-lecture about the sabre to Obi-Wan!
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Old 04-12-2002, 01:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Digital_Ronin
*cough*thecrystalsintherearemostlyirrelevant*cough *

the crystals is wat makes it "work" if it wer "real" so if the hole thing that makes it work is irelevent wat the hell r all u guys complaining bout?


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Old 04-12-2002, 01:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Digital_Ronin
@Threetall

Well, that might be the case if one took the optical (i.e. light) approach to lightsabers, but since they aren't... although I cannot exactly tell what a saber would do underwater, I doubt that it'd influence water that way.

Oh yeah... ME<----- geekboy

Digital_Ronin
I was thinking along the lines of electrical.
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Old 04-12-2002, 03:08 PM   #19
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hmmmm

Quote:
Originally posted by DarkRage
The lightsaber doesn't work underwater in Starwars, and thus, doesn't work underwater in JO.
This arguement is much disputed although this might answer a few questions. (either that or it's just a quickly thought up excuse for an inconsistency):

Lightsabers as a rule generally don't work underwater, and could potentially have trouble functioning in extremely moisture rich environments. When immersed, the lightsaber's delicate mechanics and circuitry tend to short out or otherwise malfunction. However, with proper construction, they can be made to function under such conditions.
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Old 04-12-2002, 03:15 PM   #20
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Re: Geez

Quote:
Originally posted by LedBullet
OMG, some of u guyz are real geeks.

I hate to see what u geeks would argue and complain about if SW didnt exist.

I say: SW has great stories, great movies, and great games . . . and it's all fiction . . . meant for entertainment, not criticism.
AAAAAAAhhh a NON geek!!!

get him emporer!!!! turn him to the dark side
muahahahahaaaa take that!!!
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Old 04-12-2002, 04:32 PM   #21
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you mean there's no fo-...but that would mean that...oh ****e...


:ity the raven::
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Old 04-12-2002, 04:36 PM   #22
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DR: yah, i agree. lightsabres produce no heat until they come into contact with an object. the blade might as well not even exist until they make contact with something.

Come into contact with something, like AIR or WATER... face it, lightsabers would NEVER work, however it doesnt matter because ITS A MOVIE!
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Old 04-12-2002, 04:41 PM   #23
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pol Favre

DR: yah, i agree. lightsabres produce no heat until they come into contact with an object. the blade might as well not even exist until they make contact with something.

[QUOTE]
there is a hell of a lot of stuff in the air at all times, like dust, pollen, and other stuff... so the blade would be in contact with something practically all the time.
Therefore the blade never has a chance to be non-existant.... ooo have i cracked how they work... Quantam trickery :P
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Old 04-12-2002, 04:42 PM   #24
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OMG, some of u guyz are real geeks.

And you are here because.....?
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Old 04-12-2002, 04:46 PM   #25
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hmm, i didn't thinka bout that. i was just quoting starwars.com.

anyway, i agree. it doesn't matter how they work. that's the joy of it.


:ity the raven::
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Old 04-12-2002, 04:48 PM   #26
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Not only that, but Lightsaber also have the facinating property of not giving off ambient light, and the blade has its own shadow.... In the movies.


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Old 04-12-2002, 04:51 PM   #27
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2 cents

They worked underwater in JK1. I believe there was one part where you were sucked underwater and you had to use your lightsaber to cut open a grate or the force of the water rushing through trapped you there and you drowned to death.
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Old 04-12-2002, 04:57 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Digital_Ronin
OH MY GOD I AM MAKING A LIGHTSABER IN MY OWN LIVING ROOM
Um, isn't Star Wars a movie? It isn't real, there aren't any LIGHT sabers... just friggin relax...the truth is if a lightsaber where to hit water it boil it,.. making massive amounts of steam.. the makers of lightsabers - GE Inc stated, "We don't like steam. We make our sabers with auto-steam detection cut off switches"

Raven stated in a later news press release, "Listen, we can't possibly code this game to generate the massive amounts of bubble and steam effects required to make the saber realistic underwater, at least not until the GeSaberForce 17 gfx card with 85 gigaquads of memory and a virtual titty pincher comes out sometimes in late next eon....so instead we followed GE specs, and cut the saber off. You'd be happy to know you can use standard issue Galactic Empire blasters underwater."


Get over it.
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Old 04-12-2002, 05:00 PM   #29
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While lightsabers don't emit heat, the actual core of the blade is very hot.
This would explain why wounds never had much blood. The heat from the core cauterises the cut.

Of course I don't know much, I've never read any of the EU books. (I really want to, though) I'm just going by what some knowledgable people have told me.
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Old 04-12-2002, 05:07 PM   #30
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And they told your the right things.

Only liquid and solid molecular states are dense enough to penetrate to a Lightsaber's core - which is what lets the blade cut. And that's why it doesn't disrupt anything in the gasious state - such as air.


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Old 04-12-2002, 05:11 PM   #31
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stop the pissing, guys. of course it's a movie, but it's also flawless for the most part.

we're just discussing the technology designed within it.


:ity the raven::
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Old 04-12-2002, 05:19 PM   #32
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OMG, some of u guyz are real geeks.

I hate to see what u geeks would argue and complain about if SW didnt exist.

I say: SW has great stories, great movies, and great games . . . and it's all fiction . . . meant for entertainment, not criticism.
WTF dude... why do you have to come in here and increase hostility in the world? Personally I love SW but not enough to know enough about it to debate like this but... so what if some guys want to come in here and discuss the descrepencies in plotlines and such!? They are all well aware that it is a fictional universe... they're just having fun. Why do you have to come in and start treating everyone like you are above them. FU!

What would they talk about if SW didn't exist? I dunno.... sports? There are great sports movies, games and they're all meant for entertainment and yet there is a HUGE industry in sports with TV SHOWS CRITICISING AND DISCUSSING various plays, strategies, people who are traded and signed and statistics and it all amounts to exactly ZILCH. Just like SW ... but if you like it and want to spend that much time talking about it and thinking about it then who gives a crap! Theres no need to come in here calling names and pretending that you can walk on water.


Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter.
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Old 04-12-2002, 05:24 PM   #33
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This is retarded...

Can the "serious" players of this forum get together and post what server IP's they frequent? Or Zone room or whatever? I like to play with hardcore fans.. end of story...

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Old 04-12-2002, 05:25 PM   #34
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I don't think the real issue here is whether or not it meets Star Wars canon...I have to agree with the original poster that the lightsaber should have worked underwater, and here's why...

...they set the precedent in JK and MotS, where you could use the lightsaber under water in both games. And Outcast is, like the previous two outings, a game. I don't think it should have to adhere to all the rules laid out in the movies.

The argument about bubbles and what-have-you is a weak one at best...because personally I would not have expected any at all. You didn't get any in JK or MotS, so why bother with them here?

However, the issue is largely academic, because you may have noticed that there were no underwater levels, or even situations, where you might have used the lightsaber in the first place. The Swamp is the only real level containing enough water to submerge...and it is simply not worth the effort to do so. The under water levels in JK and MotS were planned, and were sometimes necessary to navigate to reach another area, or to discover a secret. It is obvious that swimming under water was never planned for this game.

While on the subject of lightsabers, the precedent had also been set in the previous two outings that the blade would light up your surroundings. In this game, it did not. It only lit up the bodies of enemies in the dark areas - thus negating the argument that the lightsaber does not cast light. If it casts light, it should have lit up the immediate surroundings. If it doesn't cast light...it should not have illuminated the dead bodies. It would have been cool to see the lightsaber illuminate an area...and to use it as a glow-rod when walking through dark tunnels.

So I have to agree that the lightsaber could have been a little better implemented - and it detracted slightly from the game's enjoyment that it was not.

Just IMO.
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Old 04-12-2002, 05:45 PM   #35
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So you're saying that 'Sabers should work underwater, because they did for the previous two games... For the sake of inner continuity, it makes perfect and legitimate sense. I'm all for this future mod.


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Old 04-12-2002, 06:01 PM   #36
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Disregarding the game part from JK1 and MoTS.

More theories by me as to why a Lightsaber wouldn't work under water.

1) light refracts and bends light. As a lightsaber is basically a laser (focused light) focused even more through a crystal so that it makes an energy loop, putting a saber into light could further bend and bounce the light, breaking the loop, causing a power-surge (or black out not sure which) in the saber which would stop it working.

2) Light sabers only lose energy when they cut. As liquid can affect a blade so it would cut it, putting a saber into water basically gives it a HUGE amount of stuff to constantly cut through, which could also drain the power.

3) as stated above, lightsabers are delicate pieces of machinery. Elegant does not mean that you can drop ten ton weights on it, or even that it'll work under any conditions. It just means that it's not clumsy or random in skilled hands. Either way, as was also said, unless a lightsaber was specifically made to be water tight, it is VERY possible that water would get in and short out some of the circuits.


As far as it being Star Wars Canon, aside from the deleted TPM scenes, I believe it's also mentioned in a couple of the books where a saber was put in water and it almost immediately died out (very similar to the Predator's stealth technology. Useful, great defense and offense potential, but also fairly easy to mess up when you get down to it and know where to attack).



As to the person calling us geeks. yes, I am a geek. I'm a computer nerd and star wars nut. I play Role Playing games, I also play computer and video games. Guess what? I have fun doing it and couldn't care how you feel. People like certain things. One of the fun parts about liking something is being able to discuss it with other people who like it. I've discussed and argued about things in Rurouni Kenshin, Star Wars, and several other things. I enjoy it. What did you honestly expect to find coming onto a Lucas Arts forum for a Star Wars game? Personally, I was hoping to find everyone discussing Galaxy Quest or Ender's Game. Didn't think I'd find any other Star Wars nuts here..nope, no siree.

Oh, and in answer to your question "What would we talk about if there was no Star Wars"? Probably games, other Sci-Fi shows, sports, every day life. Anime, almost anything you can talk about you'll find people who love it to the point that they can discuss "trivialites" about it.


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Old 04-12-2002, 10:16 PM   #37
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If you have read 'Splinter of the Minds Eye', you'll see that Luke Skywalker uses his lightsaber under water successfully, and they even explain why it works.
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Old 04-12-2002, 10:48 PM   #38
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Splinter of the Mind's Eye? I don't mean to be rude, or a flamere...but...Splinter of the Mind's Eye??? C'mon...I mean...why would you bring that up?


Vestril was here!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-12-2002, 10:55 PM   #39
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Okay, here we go. It says in many of the books, some of the guides, that lightsabers can work underwater, but have to be built more carefully. If the lightsaber is Yun's from JK1, then it probably wouldn't, because a dark jedi is in a hurry. If not, then luke/kyle was in a hurry. Maybe luke busted Kyle's real saber, and had to build the other one.


Use the Force, however you like.

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Old 04-12-2002, 11:06 PM   #40
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I'm all for Raven making it more like the movies, in which it is GL's clear intention for the sabres not to work underwater. I don't care what the earlier games had; they had force powers like destruction as well.
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