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Old 04-14-2002, 11:12 PM   #1
Azalaszh
 
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Unhappy Ye Gods gimme a break....

Ok, so this is how it went for me and JK2....(bitterish rant forthcoming, sorry)

I buy the game, I install it, I devellop a massive addiction after about 10 minutes' play time...I'm sure you know the feeling.

But then the unthinkable happens. I realize I'm playing a game where marksmanship isn't too important...where coordination with saber and Force powers is secondary...to my ability to friggin' TIME MY JUMPS!!!!

I play lots of FPS games, and I vastly prefer the single player types...Undying, American McGee's Alice, Max Payne....games with good solid single player gamelay. Well one thing that drives me buggy is having to refer to spoiler or walkthrough sites for a game, and JK2 has me checking every ten minutes or so.

The level design is horribly convoluted and illogical...well it's good, but it's also anything but intuitive...rarely is their a "hint" as to what you're supposed to do, or a clearly logical pathway. So I'm guessing the designers set it up so that players need to try, die, and reload until they get it right.

Case in point;
spoiler:
the "Hop on the garbage Hauler and hop up into the tunnel" part of the nar Shadaa Streets level (I think). I somehow fell off the garbage hauler and landed on the ledge below...so now what? is there any way back up? The Hauler ain't coming by, I can't pull it, I can't jump on it, none of the doors will open, I have nowhere to go...so what to do? Quit the game and check a walkthrough...


This scenario has repeated itself a dozen times for me in this game already. Darnit, I wanted to play a grand old game like Jedi Knight, not some wannabe console hop-hop-hop-on-the-baddies game.

*sigh* Sory for the pointless ans frustrated rant. S'cuse me, I need to start the game up and figure out where LEC wants me to jump to next....
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Old 04-14-2002, 11:25 PM   #2
Emon
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[edit]nevermind can't get the spoiler code thingy workni[/ed]tsadfas


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Old 04-14-2002, 11:45 PM   #3
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if your checking walkthroughs so quickly, you are, in my opinion

a big wimp.

do you REALLY want a game that you can play through without having to work at some of the challenges?

for goodness sakes on regular difficulty I redid that section like 20 times, sure it was frustrating at times, but actually pulling it off, was quite satisfying,

geeze, you people, there are some primo scenes of a lone jedi against like 15 bad guys, where it's possible to kick all their asses without getting a scratch, I think those make a few jumping puzzles worthwhile,
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Old 04-14-2002, 11:59 PM   #4
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I play to have fun....endlessly jumping jumping jumping = not fun. And besides, as stated in my original post, I despise using walkthroughs. The fact I've done so often already with JK2 is a testament to the sheer "Let 'em croak and figure it out, they'll think the game is longer" mentality that's involved here.

Don't get me wrong...the fact that the designers DO have me coming back and hopping up and down like a mindless ball of flubber is a sign that the game's got hooks. The problem is that the good stuff is too often marred (so far) by jumping from A to B to C to...wait, lemme quickload and try again...A to...lemme quickload and try again......

If the jumping eases up, I'll be the first to be thrilled. If it jus becomes more jumping jumping hopping leaping, I'll play it thru and shelve it.

Once again class...blasters, sabers and the Force = fun. Jumping from ledge to ledge to ledge for several levels = so 1990s.
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Old 04-15-2002, 12:59 AM   #5
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I think I'm dropping this class.
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Old 04-15-2002, 01:26 AM   #6
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What game were you playing where it was all jumping? I've been through the game twice now and don't know where you keep coming into situations where you have to time your jumps.


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Old 04-15-2002, 01:44 AM   #7
Wes Janson SMR
 
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I pledged to myself that I would never use a guide to complete this game. No matter how hard the puzzles got, no matter how convoluted things seemed, I refused to give in to my fustrations and look things up.

When I finally completed the game, I felt like I really accomplished something. Didn't need to look anything up. I solved everything myself, without the help of anyone. That's all well and good.

But Azalaszh brings up a very good point when he says that many of the puzzles aren't "logical", that is, in their given context. One of the fruitiest examples of this is the Doomgiver level. When it comes time to hunt for the consoles to activate your main objective, you're required to do long winds of cat-like Force Jumps to reach where you need to go.

My question: How the hell could you get a normal Stormtrooper into these stations? Completely isolated, I'd find myself ambushed by a couple of workers, when they had no right to be there - because they shouldn't be able to get there.

Lack of logic puzzles of this calibur have almost cost me my life (figuratively), or Kyle's I should say..

Unfortunately, I did get furstrated on a couple of levels - thoroughly enough that I had to shut the game off and come back to it later for the same puzzle. These include Nar Shadaa (nearly kicked myself in the arse for not seeing it sooner), the garbage mashing level (boy, that one was too damn subtle!!), Yavin (getting your 'Saber), and navigating the swamps.

The puzzles were cleverly concieved, just poorly implemented in the way of applicable logic. It makes you think why enemies could reach certain locations unreachable by you.

Puzzles should make perfect sense at the end. You'd feel better knowing you tried the right combination the first or second time because it should work that way, not by trial and error because you haven't a clue what the hell you're doing.

But again, I made it through. I hope Raven learnt their lesson. My brain got a good workout, though.


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Old 04-15-2002, 01:52 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR

The puzzles were cleverly concieved, just poorly implemented in the way of applicable logic. It makes you think why enemies could reach certain locations unreachable by you.

Puzzles should make perfect sense at the end. You'd feel better knowing you tried the right combination the first or second time because it should work that way, not by trial and error because you haven't a clue what the hell you're doing.

Ahhh, and essentially that's what I'm talking about...puzzles that you complete and then look back on, thinking "Well how the HECK was I supposed to know that???" The game's definitely entertaining, or I wouldn't want to play it as much as I do. But it would be so much more enjoyable if more of the puzzles could be completed through logic, and less through trial-and-error. Ah well..I'll finish it anyway.
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Old 04-15-2002, 02:00 AM   #9
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I think maybe the feel raven was trying to show us is that. In real life, when you come to a puzzle and such, your answer is not out in the open. I mean, your dropped into an Unknown Base and how the hell your supposed to know what does what and where something is.

Just MY opinion tho.
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Old 04-15-2002, 02:14 AM   #10
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Bah, its the bizzare puzzles that make JK games. Not to mention the fact that you should BY NO MEANS compare the levels of JK to Max Payne and... wait a second...

You say you like Alice (so do I , it rocks) but Alice has even worse jumping puzzles than JK2 (and considerably more confusing puzzles). I never played Undying past the demo, but I remember a LOT of jumping and od puzzles in the demo.

And as for Max Payne... well IMO those were the worst levels Ive ever played in a game (run shoot run shoot run shoot, no variety).
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Old 04-15-2002, 02:28 AM   #11
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I don't mind jumping puzzles in JKO. I think the leaping is immensely entertaining.

As far as unrealistic switches and such... in Ep:4 Obi Wan has to walk out on that tiny catwalk to the other side of those pillars with a thousand mile drop just to turn off the shields. WHo puts switches in a place like that!!!? WHy not in a heavily guarded room? Hehehe...

Maybe thats not a good point but... I came into a few snags playing through the game but I found that just a detailed examination of my surroundings... trying to force push and pull things usually helped me out.


Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter.
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Old 04-15-2002, 02:36 AM   #12
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Max Payne was a great game, IMHO, but it was the script that really made it. I laughed so much at the "I'm a character in a graphic novel" part - and the whole game was really quite clever. But yes, the levels did get pretty repetitive by the end - the only thing that really kept me interested was wanting to find out what happened next and that the whole thing was just so stylish.

And I agree that it is puzzles that really 'makes' JK/JK2 great games. Personally, I loved the Doomgiver Code puzzle - I thought that was very clever - and even the Yavin trials I thought were very good. The jumping can be hard, but I thought it was worse/harder in JK1 so I wasn't complaining too much, and tha ability to 'stick' a landing helped as well.

Anyway, I loved the whole thing - bring on more puzzles, I say!
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Old 04-15-2002, 05:01 AM   #13
Wes Janson SMR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Locke101
I think maybe the feel raven was trying to show us is that. In real life, when you come to a puzzle and such, your answer is not out in the open. I mean, your dropped into an Unknown Base and how the hell your supposed to know what does what and where something is.
Well, number one, that's just poor-assed planning. ;-) Talk to a SWAT officer, and he'll tell you the most important thing is to know your surroundings before you even walk onto the scene.

But that asside, all you need to do in JK is find all the buttons you can, and push 'em. I agree that the answers shoudln't be direct. That woudln't be fun. But JK has little logic to a lot of its puzzles. When you sove something and you look bakc, you might ask yourself, "Now why the hell would this activate that?"

In the garbage mashing level, I came to a complete halt when I needed to find the password. I had NO idea where I was supposed to go. I went back through every room, nook, and cranny.

It wasn't until I started randomly throwing my Lightsaber in peculior places was I able to proceed. Puzzles should have subtle - but not too sublte - clues to be solved. They should be challenging, but not downright headache-inducing. I literally slapped my monitor because of the puzzle placement. It was stupid. There was no clue what so ever that I needed to do what I did - completely random. That's bad.

But as illogical as some things are (like bizzare switch placement), the puzzles were pretty varried and fun to figure out. The Doomgiver switch hunt was pretty neat and fun, but why would a ship's comm system be devided up that way? What if they needed to make a call?

The majority of them would have no value in real life. Ravem made the Remnant Empire look very stupid in their structure designs. Fustrations asside, though, it was some fun stuff.


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Old 04-15-2002, 07:03 AM   #14
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To be honest, I really have no idea where some of you are comming from. I do agree that ther is a bit of a lack of logic in some place in the game. For example, the big circular room at bespin whith the rings you have to jump to avoid being fried, how did the guys who snipe at you as you progree get to where they are whithout the ability to force jump? But as for needed to look up walkthoughs, there really isn't any. I was able to get through the entire game without a single hint (and I'm not that smart either). There were a few spots that I kept dying and had to try several times to figure out what to do, but I never really felt stuck. Maybe I'm just more patient than most people (doubtful) or just play way to many games and am used to the kind of puzzles game developers use (probable). The only time I think the game became almost too hard was when I decided to play at a higher difficulty and certain places, like saving the prisoners on Artus, seemed to really kick my butt. There have been games in the past that threw me for a loop but usually the answer to my problem was staring me right in the face, but I was blind or too focused on finding a different type of solution. Anyway, good luck to those having problems and I hope you can go on without having to look up answers on the internet too much
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Old 04-15-2002, 12:06 PM   #15
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Jumping

spoiler:
True, the Doomgiver level where you have to jump into the the rooms and hit the right switch to set the communications to Rogue Squadron's fequency, did seem bizarre. But at least it was challenging


I'm proud to say that I did that part without dying and/or cheating, although there were a few close calls.

Besides, being a jedi is not all about slaughtering stormtroopers. (They slaughter battle-droids too ) Seriously, you know what I mean. It'd be boring if you just had to cut a swath through stormtroopers and didn't have to use your brain ever now and then.



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Old 04-15-2002, 02:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR
In the garbage mashing level, I came to a complete halt when I needed to find the password. I had NO idea where I was supposed to go. I went back through every room, nook, and cranny.

This puzzle was too freaking weird. I found it because after awhile I was getting bored, so I was just running around, shooting bowcaster bolts around corners and stuff, and for some reason that wall blew up. (I actually did this BEFORE I ever found out how to get up on the walkways, and would have seen the grate).

So I never got stuck on the password, then when I played it the second time, I kept standing in that room going "Didn't I blow this wall up last time?"
Shot some bolts and stuff at the wall. Didn't seem to make much of a difference. Hmm..

It took me longer to get through the SECOND time than it did the first time.

Most of the other puzzles were quite alright, even if a little too much of the "just push everything and see what happens".
Or, for example, the chamber where the pod is being made. "There has to be a way out of here," says Kyle. Yeah Kyle, I agree.
That the things behind that grate then make the welder go faster and blow up the door? Pretty far fetched in my opinion.

Still, I've never had too much of a problem with the "why are these troops even here?!" problem. If they don't put enemies to fight in the midst of a puzzle, then there is no breakup of the puzzle monotony.

I solved it without help, and it DID make me feel kinda proud that I had managed to do so.

Creston
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Old 04-15-2002, 02:28 PM   #17
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I really do love this game and don't mind some of the puzzles. But I do scratch my head when I spend 30 minutes or so jumping around trying to get to some totally out of the way place, only to find 2 storm troopers sitting up there. How the HELL did they get there...did some dark jedi use the force to move them all? And sometimes the enemy AI can be REALLY stupid...but that's a whole nother post.
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Old 04-15-2002, 02:34 PM   #18
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it was the script that really made it

The horror... the horror...

truely, this describes the game so perfectly...

I hated the script, I liked the opening line but after that it became irritating. However I do admit that one of my favorite bits of dialog was the "im in a comic strip" and the (even better) "Im in a video game" parts.
"out of the corner of my eye, weapon statistics hanging in the air, time slowing down to show off my moves... I was in a video game!"

That rocked

What really was good though was the conversations that the characters would have, like the storm troopers in JK.

As for irritating puzzels, the one that got me the most was that one in the mined where you had to blow up the.. wahtever the **** that thing was... irradiator?... and then hop aboard the shuttle.
The password wasn a problem becasue I didnt look at it like "ok, have to g ofind pass word know" I looked at it as "cant go through here, lets find another route", and ended up stumbling upon lando.

Oh man... I think I have to go play that now...
and yes, the garbage facillity is the worst level in the game. I wis hyou could play the first few levels with a lightsaber...
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Old 04-15-2002, 02:46 PM   #19
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I agree with Azalaszh 100%, this game is ridiculous!! I had the same problem with the garbage thing; I missed it and I was like "ummmm...now what!?!?!!". Also, the code thing on the Doomgiver was too tricky and I fell a few times. Raven should've made this game fun like Elite Force where you could get into the story. Jedi Knight II really needs to be redesigned or something, eventhough that's impossible now
Elite Force was meant to feel like a Star Trek Voyager episode. Thereforce, JK2 should've been made to feel like a Star Wars movie based on someone who's not a member of the Skywalker family . Now you mean to tell me that the Star Wars movies where these 8 hour movies where the characters wandered around in circles because they didn't blow a hole in a wall which required to jump 100 feet in the air and some sharpshooting sniper would kill them as soon as they tried to jump. Then after miraculously surviving that, a ****load of stormtroopers with superpowerful rocket launchers blow you them up into itty bitty pieces. I've seen the originial trilogy 200 times and don't remember any of these things happening, nor in Episode 1 .

I also did like the stormtrooper conversations and stuff like that though.
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Old 04-15-2002, 04:21 PM   #20
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the garbage level

i found the password almost straight away, while bouncing bowcaster bolts through the slits that the rodians fire out of, i must've hit a barrel or something, because the wall blew up...third time through, i did the same, and found the grate that you're supposed to find later, that looks down into the same room...but i don;t see how it would've been that hard to work out..if you take the time to explore the enviroment, and just don;t run through looking for the next baddy to kill..

doomgiver comms array=cool puzzle, loved it, i have no problem with the jumping

also if you tap the 'use' key you don;t slide about when you land a jump...makes things a lot easier ^_^
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Old 04-15-2002, 04:43 PM   #21
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What that guy posted is absolutely nasty. I hope he gets banned for that.
Now, as for the level on bespin with the rings...you were NOT supposed to use force jump. If you do the level correctly, you're supposed to wait for the force field to turn on the ring where you're at, and you can calmly run across...Someone w/o force powers could easily navigate that. As for comparing this game to Elite Force...DON'T. Star Trek sucks.

Edit: To the man who said "Blasphemy" below me...I'll say it again...Star Trek sucks.


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Last edited by Foxbatkllr; 04-15-2002 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 04-15-2002, 05:00 PM   #22
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"Star Trek sucks."

BLASPHEMY!!!
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Old 04-15-2002, 05:29 PM   #23
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FPS games r not supposed to be waltzed through, they shud b fun but challenging, thats y cheating sucks apart from if it means u can cut ppls limbs off easier
dont jus look at a guide cus its difficult work it out and for everyones sake stop whining, this game rocks
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Old 04-15-2002, 06:01 PM   #24
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Puzzles that rely on jumping, re-loading, and retrying just to make something seem hard are not puzzles. It is the sign of someone that is just not able to think of anything better, so they just throw it in there just to make it seem hard, and make the level seem big. That's okay though, not all games can match the greatness of Dark Forces or Jedi Knight.


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Old 04-15-2002, 10:03 PM   #25
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agreed. anything causing imminent death should have a warning, and the puzzles (jump die reload) should be gone altogether--takes away from realism. i dont think a jedi would have a hard time jumping onto a crate and then sliding off the other side...
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Old 04-15-2002, 10:26 PM   #26
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i had very few frustrating moments in this game. in all of them, there was a clue as what to do, i was just stupid. the third level was the hardest part for me, it took me foreever to see the retractible pipe thing. my fault though, should have looked at the camera longer. i don't know why people have trouble with the swamps?? it seems pretty straight forward to me. and jumping puzzles?? what jumping puzzles. i don't remember having to reload much because of jumping.

oh another part i just remembered in the 4th level, when you have to jump down where the fan is? i had to restart and get 5 tanks of bacta to compensate for the health... was there another way around this? hehe
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Old 04-15-2002, 11:05 PM   #27
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One or two jumping puzzles in a game is alright.. or where you occassionally have to leap onto a ledge to break a grate and crawl through vents to bypass a closed blast door... but please, as mentioned before, some of them are just plain ridiculous, with logic dictating that stormtroopers, and standard imperial officers could not under any circumstances get to where they were.

Even in Episode 4 when Obi-One walked around the ledge to turn off the tractor beam, at least a stormtrooper could have done that. The reason for the switch being positioned there... well that's a whole nother story.

Someone said that Max Payne was boring because it was just run and shoot, run and shoot. Sure, at times it did get rather repetative, but picture this:

A Starwars game. Set, sometime when the Jedi were fairly numerous, (so you could play as a Jedi who isn't Luke).
No crazy jumping puzzles, but with the occassional crafty solution needed to a seemingly impossible situation....

Lots of action, wading with your lightsaber into the midst of a horde of stormtroopers, reflecting their blaster shots back at them, swinging to chop a few more down.. Straight from the movie FUN... no more having to stop every ten minutes or so to solve a puzzle that involves jumping from place to place, flicking a switch, and then jumping back again.


Or even, an MMORPG, where the player can choose between numerous character types, from Jedi and Sith, Bounty Hunter to Trader, Imperial Officer to Rebel.

As an even more interesting twist.. imagine, if only two people, on the entire server could be Sith.... if you wanted to be a Sith Lord, you would have to hunt one down, kill them, and become and apprentice to the Master.

My point, is that there is so much more that could be added to Starwars computer games than what they are currently.

If there were only more Game Designer Jobs available in Australia *Sigh*


Oh and whoever said Startrek sucks... that IS as blasphemous as saying Starwars sucks... I forsee a painful death by Force Lightning for you, young Jedi.


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Old 04-16-2002, 03:49 AM   #28
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A lot of these people probably never played JK 1. Jedi Outcast captured the JK feeling perfectly in my opinion, and that's a good thing. I can't believe people are having so much trouble on the puzzles. I guess people are used to having things handed to them on a silver platter. Put a little effort into it. It's not that hard, I haven't used a walkthrough once. And jumping through the garbage masher was great.
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Old 04-16-2002, 04:02 AM   #29
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It's stupid. JK1 and MotS aren't prime examples of "logic" either.

There's a difference between being "handed" something, and trying to find the answer to something that doesn't make sense.

Like it or not, the puzzles in the JK series are too trial and error. They rely more on convoluted, press-every-button type architecture rather than sensible logic. Now if you ask yourself, "Why the hell is this here?" or "Well, isn't this supposed to be somewhere around here? The hell is it supposed to be?" Then you've lost yourself into a illogical puzzle hunt.

JK1 and 2 were fun as anything, but the puzzle made no realistic sense. I know that word's strange to use with Star Wars, but some things seemed to wacky, even for the genre. Puzzles are welcome, but when the game forces you to think beyond normal logic, and delve into a bizzare, nonsensical way of thinking, well, it leads to fustration and headaches. Some like it, some don't, some couldn't care less either way. I just know that if I were in charge of the places we explored in JK2, I would definately not have it designed that ineptly.

And that's the bottom line.


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Old 04-16-2002, 05:11 AM   #30
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Whether or not your use a walkthrough or cheats, the objective of a game is to have fun.

If I get insanely frustrated then I will look at a walkthrough, I WILL NOT read ahead. If a person feels like they want to look at a walkthrough then that is their choice, and that person doesn't need to explain that to anyone else, BUT THEMSELF. People can be so judgemental and they forget that the objective is to have fun and to enjoy the game.
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:16 AM   #31
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True that.

But it's fun to critique after you've completed the game. '-)


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Old 04-16-2002, 12:00 PM   #32
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Personally I found the garbage level's puzzles to be quite linear. The architecture on the other hand, was convoluted, which made navigation a matter of getting to know the place. Having said that, I completed the level in about forty minutes, because I didn't give up, and didn't get annoyed.

Naturally people are going to complain if they have difficulty solving a puzzle... Back in the JK day, people complained about the door puzzle on level 6: 'Into the Dark Palace.' Or the MOTS puzzle on level 12: 'Dromund Kaas Swamp.' And frankly, both those puzzles, and the garbage level puzzles, are fairly easy, solvable quickly through a process of elimination, as long as the player has patience. If you want puzzles that have obvious solutions, there's the Monkey Island series. (The so-called "puzzles" in such titles are hardly worthy of the name, however.) For everyone else, there's DF, JK and JO.

I think a game is more interesting when it's challenging. I think it's more interesting when it confuses me, and that's why I've enjoyed the DF series so far, because it's not a collection of linear, soulless 2D scrollers, but puzzling and navigable locations, full of new things to discover.


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Old 04-16-2002, 02:47 PM   #33
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I think some of us are missing the point. There's a difference with being challenging and logical, and being challenging and downright absurd - which makes it even needlessly more challenging to a lot of players, because things don't make sense.

After plaing JK and JK2, you slowly get the sense for the questionable level design, and learn to just press buttons and blindly make your way throughout the level.

spoiler:
Why the hell would the fuel pump switch be in code and be far out of reach to the mere mortal with no Force Jumping abilities? Why would it be there, if only to throw the player off.


It's things like that which puzzle me when I look back. It's like...stupid when you really think about it - which is what I tend to do. Think.

If you don't know (and why should you?), I'm studying to become a game designer. I take it upon myself to really study a game's mechanics when I'm done enjoying it - like when I beat JK2. The game was the most fun, entertaining, and engaging game I've played since Final Fantasy X. It's great! But, I need to criticize the logic behind the puzzles.

No one here's asking to be handed the next clue. That wouldn't be fun. But the game would be even more engaging if it forced the player to think logically, and look for clues that make sense.

spoiler:
Why a starship would segment its com systems with broken ledges over a bottomless pit, and still place troops in the most isolated room
is really beyond my comprehensive thinking. Nobody would do that, I mean, really... So why would I want to look there, since I knew no one would be stupid enough to design a ship in that way? Why? Because there was no place else to look. Which is another problem...

95% of the time, I loved figuring out these puzzles. But the point that I was trying to make was not the lack of fun, but the lack of logic. It's this lack of logic that would have made the puzzles even more engaging if it were corrected.

People may not mind them, but any way you slice it - a lot of it just wouldn't work in a real situation. I know it's just a game, or else this would be absolutely inexcusable (don't ask). But if I learned anything, it is to make things work out in a logical fashion, but by no means make things less challenging. You'll get more satisfaction when you look back and see that things should have worked out that way, and you figured it out in a timely and well-thought out mannor; and to let the puzzles have multiple ways of being solved.


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Old 04-16-2002, 02:48 PM   #34
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cry more n00b
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Old 04-16-2002, 03:02 PM   #35
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?

I've been on this board and bought the game the first day it came out. How the hell am I a noob? Especially when I've registered before you, and have more posts?

Learn some manners, or I'll report you to an admin.


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Old 04-16-2002, 03:49 PM   #36
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Quote:
After plaing JK and JK2, you slowly get the sense for the questionable level design
Actually, as a "prospective game designer," you should remember that JK's sprawling, non-linear levels were one of its most feted features in the gaming press... and in fact there were worries that the Quake 3 engine might not be able to supply such large, interesting levels. Fortunately it was able to do so.

Quote:
and learn to just press buttons and blindly make your way throughout the level.
Every switch has an easily identifiable purpose in JK and JO, and every level has clearly defined objectives. I don't know where you got this from.

As for the Pump-switch comment, on the one hand, you want JO to be uber-realistic, yet you want it to have linear and consecutive puzzles on the other? In real life, things are rarely Monkey-Island-esque, they rarely fit into anything as neat as: "Use rubber chicken-with-a-pulley-in-the-middle with wire." As for the pump station itself, the techs may carry some ladders in there with them when they want to traverse the gaps, or they may be carrying remote controls that activate a fleet of giant hovering plushie toys for them to ride around on, who knows? Over-analysis doesn't make you a good game designer, rather you should appreciate the Ravenites' player-sensitive philosophy, as they are currently some of the best in the business.

Finally as a "prospective game designer," you should be aware that great gameplay experiences do not depend merely on some sort of interpretation of the realistic. Rather, one must find a balance somewhere between "cool, realistic-looking levels," and "puzzles simple enough for a two-year old with both his hands stapled to the desk to solve." In my opinion (and that's all it is, just as your opinion is merely that) DF, JK, MOTS and JO found that balance admirably, which is why the series is so popular, well-respected in the gaming press, and fun.

Wait a moment... weren't you the author of that... er... "alternative" Jan-death plot? As a "prospective game designer," you should be told that: The "She was really a dummy!" ploy has been done to death. I mean, look at the first ten minutes of Austin Powers 2 for an example of how cliche it is.

Oh, and I'm not sure whether you've heard the expression before, but "Do not feed the trolls." LInKINParkD00D is such a one. He lives off your indignation.

Quote:
stupid when you really think about it - which is what I tend to do. Think.
And don't presume that those who do not share your opinions are unthinking. Humility is the mother of great deeds.


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:29 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL


Actually, as a "prospective game designer," you should remember that JK's sprawling, non-linear levels were one of its most feted features in the gaming press... and in fact there were worries that the Quake 3 engine might not be able to supply such large, interesting levels. Fortunately it was able to do so.
I guess I don't know the limitations of the Quake engine...yet.

Quote:
Every switch has an easily identifiable purpose in JK and JO, and every level has clearly defined objectives. I don't know where you got this from.
I "got this" from going back through the game, and realizing that I didn't necessarily need to understand my objectives to complete them. If I ran around the level and just pressed all the buttons I could, I'd more or less get through. A very good example of that can be found right on the first level. You can explore to your heart's content without knowing that you've "researched a needed code". It's when you actually have to impliment the codes to complete the levels when you say, "Oh, that's what it's for."

Quote:
As for the Pump-switch comment, on the one hand, you want JO to be uber-realistic, yet you want it to have linear and consecutive puzzles on the other? In real life, things are rarely Monkey-Island-esque, they rarely fit into anything as neat as: "Use rubber chicken-with-a-pulley-in-the-middle with wire." As for the pump station itself, the techs may carry some ladders in there with them when they want to traverse the gaps, or they may be carrying remote controls that activate a fleet of giant hovering plushie toys for them to ride around on, who knows? Over-analysis doesn't make you a good game designer, rather you should appreciate the Ravenites' player-sensitive philosophy, as they are currently some of the best in the business.
I never said I wanted JK or JKO to be "uber realistic". If I wanted that, we would't have a Star Wars game on our hands. Believe it or not, I think I understand what Raven tried to do - and that accomidation you're talking about is to cater to the player's new-founded Force powers. That's why the most basic things are up and out of the way - like the main fuel pump controls - and catwalks with no real entry way to them.

In this game, I can't really ask myself, "Now where would something like this be?" 'Cause when I find it, I'm usually asking why it's at that location in the first place. There were a few logical ones:
spoiler:
Like the door overrides for the Lady Luck.
Like this example, not all of them are so far-fetched.

And for the record, Elite Force was exceptionally done.

Quote:
Finally as a "prospective game designer," you should be aware that great gameplay experiences do not depend merely on some sort of interpretation of the realistic. Rather, one must find a balance somewhere between "cool, realistic-looking levels," and "puzzles simple enough for a two-year old with both his hands stapled to the desk to solve." In my opinion (and that's all it is, just as your opinion is merely that) DF, JK, MOTS and JO found that balance admirably, which is why the series is so popular, well-respected in the gaming press, and fun.
You're absolutely right. I'm even said that I did enjoy about 95% of my puzzle-solving experience. That's not what I'm saying. And I dissagree with that very last comment about "balance" in that respect. Again, refer to my comments - because all I'll do is repeat myself.

Quote:
Wait a moment... weren't you the author of that... er... "alternative" Jan-death plot? As a "prospective game designer," you should be told that: The "She was really a dummy!" ploy has been done to death. I mean, look at the first ten minutes of Austin Powers 2 for an example of how cliche it is. :D
I said it wasn't my best work. I wrote that in about ten minutes. '-) But I guarantee that I could come up with a more convincing (and believeable) scene than the one they have in the game now. I'd probably skip the dummy ploy, and go right to what someone had already suggested: the ol' Jedi Mind Trick. But I also ran a poll, and found that less than 30% had doubts about Jan's death. Where as the majority knew she was alive. That's too many. ;-)

Quote:
Oh, and I'm not sure whether you've heard the expression before, but "Do not feed the trolls." LInKINParkD00D is such a one. He lives off your indignation.
He's an idiot. I've already reported him to the moderators.

Quote:
And don't presume that those who do not share your opinions are unthinking. Humility is the mother of great deeds.
[mumble]Damn. I can't believe I'm defending myself here...[/mumble]

Ahem. Anyway, I really didn't intend for that interpritation for that comment. Looking back, I could see how insulting it must have been. I merely meant that I don't always take things in stride when I question it. If I see something goofy, I ask why. I think about it, and try to rationalize why these levels are designed the way they are. And I do this for almost every game, not just JKO. And I really didn't mean to imply that others don't "think". I appologize.

But in any case, I don't presume to know everything about game design. That's why I'm just a "prospective student". But as of now, I have my own ideals to think about - and JKO's logistics did bother me somewhat. It's something that I'll think about when I actually sit at a desk when I work for my Game Design degree.

And, dude, thanks for the show of respect in your intelligent response.


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Old 04-16-2002, 07:17 PM   #38
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I didn't necessarily need to understand my objectives to complete them.
As I said in my previous post, the game designers must find a balance that will allow those with relatively little gaming experience to solve most of the puzzles without difficulty.

However, I was, confidentially and only momentarily, dissappointed at times with how UN-complicated some of the puzzles were. Take the Yavin floor block puzzle for example:

spoiler:
Upon seeing it for the first time, I envisioned at least ten minutes of me finding a subtle pattern in the symbols that linked the line... I rubbed my hands in glee, hoping that I'd have to dig my trusty pencil and paper out... but then immediately it occurred to me that FPShooters rarely contain such brainteasers, and I scanned the walls, to find the depressingly easy tile-pushage aspect of the affair.


But as I said before, such puzzles are necessarily easy, to accomodate the many types of people who will play the game. I appreciate that fact. And even then, people such as yourself, who are studying to become game designers pop online complaining about the difficulty level of some of the puzzles. For the game developer, it's a no-win situation, he/she can please the "run through the levels blasting everything that moves and not thinking" brigade, or he can please the slightly more cerebral folks. He cannot please both. And even then, there are many levels within each type.

Quote:
If I ran around the level and just pressed all the buttons I could, I'd more or less get through.
Hmm, no doubt correct, however most games consist of "fighting through enemies to get to the buttons," and most have less plot-driven objectives than JO. As I just remarked, games can't be too tough, lest they alienate a huge proportion of their players. As for the garbage level et al. I personally think that with the rest of the game not being too tough at all, players have no leg to stand on if they complain about a puzzle or two that stump them for a while. Let's be honest, the garbage level's problem for most people wasn't the logic behind the puzzles, but the navigation of the installation. Even I must admit that at first glance it all looked a bit samey, but after a quarter of an hour running around it, one has gained a measure of familiarity, and one can legitimately move on to wondering "now, what next?" If one has patience, the next step presents itself. If one has little patience, one pops online and looks at a walkthrough.

What I found to be the most pleasant aspect of the puzzles in JO was the interaction of the NPCs. (The same sort of affair as System Shock 2, among other games.) Jan, in the case of the aforementioned first level, provides less moribund guidelines for the JO novice than there would be if all the player was able to do was read his/her PDA to ascertain the objectives. In the case of the "lady luck" puzzle arc specifically, I found, as with the rest of the DF series, that the sheer scale of the levels at least made the game of "hunt-the-buttons" more exhilarating, and listening to good old Billy's instructions every so often was just the icing on the cake.

One must ask, will game developers ever get away from button-hunting in the FPS, and find-and-fetch quests in the RPG genres? Personally I don't mind, I have a hell of a time hunting buttons if the levels and opponents are well designed, and I have a hell of a time finding and fetching if the RPG is likewise well scripted. JO was thus well scripted, and therefore I, unlike yourself seemingly, have no complaints about the "depth" of the puzzle matter.

Quote:
I dissagree with that very last comment about "balance" in that respect. Again, refer to my comments
No need, I specified that it was my opinion that JO was exceptionally well-balanced. It is merely that, my opinion, and if our opinions are not the same I feel no need to force the issue.

Quote:
But I also ran a poll, and found that less than 30% had doubts about Jan's death. Where as the majority knew she was alive. That's too many.
Come now, JO's a Lucasarts game. Lucasarts is famous for the lack of death in their titles, it wouldn't take a genius to guess that Jan's death was faked, regardless of how it was portrayed. Personally I believe anything except the road they took, (averting the camera, as it were) would be as cliche as the dummy/fembot ploy. (Which the mind-trick option is merely a more mystical take on.) Besides, it's a family game. Don't want to distress the kiddies by showing the death-by-plasma-blade of one of the main sympathetic characters, mind-trick or not, do we?

Quote:
He's an idiot. I've already reported him to the moderators.
He won't care about that too much, I think. He's probably been banned once already, and unless they block his ISP he'll probably be back. One gets rid of trolls by starving them, and they eat discord. He's been doing the rounds on several threads today too. Bet he's positively full by now.

Quote:
Anyway, I really didn't intend for that interpritation for that comment. Looking back, I could see how insulting it must have been.
Don't forget your: "I think some of us are missing the point." I wag my finger at you sir, you and your ambiguous use of language.

Quote:
I really didn't mean to imply that others don't "think". I appologize.
Bah. I hate it when people apologise.

Quote:
And, dude, thanks for the show of respect in your intelligent response.
What?..

Oh, yeah... erm... respect = me. Mm-hmm.


[FW] Spider AL
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