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Old 04-16-2002, 06:58 AM   #1
Darth Phodis
 
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Crappy saber interface...but a great game

I love the game, but Dont you all agree that they could have come up with a degree of actual Saber control....so you can swing ~where you want to swing~, not relying on stupid key combos that ultimately lead to you spinning out of control in congested situations.
Surely they could have implemented a system whereby you could..hold a key and move the mouse "with control", of where you want to swing it.
Bound to get flamed by those that love the current system, that fluke attack sequences.....pity they arent REALLY in control when they hit you......... I can hear it now..... "I dont have any problems"... "you dont know how to play".... whatever, but deep down you know its true.
What are your thoughts???..... a patch would be great for full personal customisation....
Flame away.
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:01 AM   #2
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I think you are right. I like Obi-Wan's saber control system on the XBox far better. Although it also isn't perfect.
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:13 AM   #3
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Yeah... I have Obi-Wan on X-box as well, and the control is way better, I didnt mention it as I didnt want to make this a "the X-box Vs the PC" kind of thread....
Anyways fingers crossed for a improved interface in the near future..
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:19 AM   #4
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No flaming here. You are absolutely right. The Saber control is too loose and wild especially multiplayer. They could have refined it a bit more and made it a bit tighter. Perhaps this will be adressed with the patch?...lets hope so


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Old 04-16-2002, 07:31 AM   #5
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I was looking at possible control schemes for the thrustmaster pads, and I think it might be possible to use the one with the right analog stick. It will not be as good as obi wan, but it would still be much better imo.
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:37 AM   #6
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the fighting is improved if you slow the speed to 200
g_speed 200
and if ur some1 who plays bots change where it says "1" in saberspecialist to 5 and the enemy bots can now block alot better and the fighting is more like the films
i like it that way
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Old 04-16-2002, 09:52 AM   #7
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Great but old idea...

Ever tried a game called "Die byt the sword"? Released in 98, it had a system for melee combat called VSIM. The main problem was that it was damn hard to get used to. I tried, but failed. But the word was that it was a great combat system, if you got it to work for you...

There was a demo released back then. Dunno where you might find it today...

W
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Old 04-16-2002, 10:06 AM   #8
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the idea SOUNDS great, but sounds like it'd have a hellish learning curve,

but, once you could do it... ooohhhhh, that'd rock.
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Old 04-16-2002, 10:06 AM   #9
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dude your obviously not being flamed, hehe =)

i think your totally right, and btw, listen to darthmark, slower speed make almost a new game

but the facts are still the same, it is kind of goofy that you have to be *moving* left to perform a left horizontal slash, isnt it
even if only briefly, it lets the enemy know what your doing
and worse it makes battles this kind of goofy flight sim where you have to "dive bomb" your enemy instead of just having it out

i turn on "g_sabermovespeed -1" when i play the SP ladder map as well as a few other tweaks like lowefing the basic move speed, makes for a more movielike feel

i dont have the the mp solution or anything
but im interested, how does the saber control for obi-wan work in that game then?
are you stuck in "stand still" mode when you go into saber combat in order to use the movement keys to control the saber?
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:02 PM   #10
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i agree that the sabre, while very cool, was not the best it could be... if fact it seems that all the swings are very similar, only each stance modifies the speed and damage delt. i really like the variety of swings in SBX3... there was good variety and not really any silly combos or anything... but, i guess were stuck with this until JKIII

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Old 04-16-2002, 05:13 PM   #11
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Re: Great but old idea...

Quote:
Originally posted by wheelkick
Ever tried a game called "Die byt the sword"? Released in 98, it had a system for melee combat called VSIM. The main problem was that it was damn hard to get used to. I tried, but failed. But the word was that it was a great combat system, if you got it to work for you...

There was a demo released back then. Dunno where you might find it today...

W
DBTS was cool and the addon pack gave it a little more variety.

There was a very high learning curve to that game and once you got the hang of it, look out..

The faster you move the mouse the more damage you do.
You can take off a head in a heart-beat, chop off a foot, hand, and even remove the arms.. Its funny to chop off the weapon arm and have the baddie try to blunt you with his shield or chop of an ankle and see them hop around.

Im sure all of you guys have seen the movie "Monty Pythons The Quest for the Holy Grail"
Remember how the Black knight got dismembered. Thats what Die by the Sword always reminded me of.

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Old 04-16-2002, 05:25 PM   #12
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Re: Crappy saber interface...but a great game

Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Phodis
I love the game, but Dont you all agree that they could have come up with a degree of actual Saber control....so you can swing ~where you want to swing~, not relying on stupid key combos that ultimately lead to you spinning out of control in congested situations.
Surely they could have implemented a system whereby you could..hold a key and move the mouse "with control", of where you want to swing it.
Bound to get flamed by those that love the current system, that fluke attack sequences.....pity they arent REALLY in control when they hit you......... I can hear it now..... "I dont have any problems"... "you dont know how to play".... whatever, but deep down you know its true.
What are your thoughts???..... a patch would be great for full personal customisation....
Flame away.
I agree about how more control is needed. I was suprised when I first saw the current system. You could have 2 ppl swing directly at each other standing 1 inch away and they might not connect.

With the current system(including poor ass collision detection) you have to learn where the saber connects. Wich is gay in my opinion. It took some getting used to swinging right through someone and the hit not being counted. Its a standard part of the game which is sad :/

I do not dislike it but there is A LOT of room for improvement. Sadly I doubt raven will do anything. Probably to much work.

Someone needs to make a really kick ass saber combat mod. For that is our only hope.
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:40 PM   #13
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Good point about the physics model from calculations replacing motion capture. Motion capture does look realistic sometimes, but it is fairly limited when you want to interact with it. Motion capture is adequate at best in sports games, but not action intensive games like FPS, imo. The true physics model is the way to go, like VSim. If more people adopted DBTS, VSim would have taken off and it could have seen major updates to address high learning curve, but it only gained a cult following, not much more. That's too bad. The new Unreal Havok engine should make things a bit more interesting, I hope.
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Old 04-16-2002, 06:37 PM   #14
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HereticII's blade movements were much better, and also done by Raven, so it's quite possible they'll fix the movements in the patch, or maybe make it a little more like the SP where you seem to have better control of your movements, especially for attacking in a streight line ahead of you, instead of having to always attack sideways or while strafing.

the purple one
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:01 PM   #15
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I see alot of problems listed here as well.

The collission system is pretty bad, like Tree pointed out.
The swing initian needs alot of tweakage as well, its the first sword style game I ever played doh so Ive no comparison. Id say workin with more attack binds, like 3 mouse buttons, and maybe let the direction of the mousemovement let control the swing, some more stances, combos and sabres and you have alot of fun.

Overall its still fun and I already posted a thread in the MOD forums asking if someone is workin on something like that, Id offer my help on modeling and game design.
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:10 PM   #16
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I'm going to start a new thread and explain how we can fix this
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:20 PM   #17
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There is a duel.cfg floating around the editing or Mod forums that allows you to push one key for a specific attack rather than several. It works farely well but you can't be moving or it will interfere with the script.

The problem with a keyboard mouse setup is that you need to be moving with one hand on directional keys, freelooking/attacking with the other hand on the mouse. You would need a third hand to press the eight different attacks available (in each stance) while moving. The setup Raven created is specifically for the Keyboard/mouse. It is the best way to do it in my opinion.

I use a mouse/stick combo that has an excellent button programing app. The Saitek SGE allows me to execute any attack moving in any direction, even crouched. This setup seems to execute attacks a bit faster than the Duel.cfg. My forward/back and strafe are controlled by the stick axis so I don't need that third hand. All eight attacks are controlled by thumb buttons and hat switch. This way I can move in any direction while attacking with any attack with the mouse in freelook. So far I have found little advantage in this greater freedom for attacks. Why is that you might ask? Well, it appears that the default attack that you execute when moving a specific way IS the best attack for that situation. The game and sabre system was specifically designed that way.

If, for some reason the combat was slower due to decrease in game speed or a more intense defensive style or stance were available, then more strategic attack sequences using specific attacks, blocks and parries might be viable.

Also, remember that the learning curve for this type of melee game could take some time. Maybe months? I tend to make lots of suggestions before I've mastered the game; that makes for lousy suggestions.

There is no doubt that the sabre system could use some improvement and if history acounts for anything, then Raven could release a massive Enhancement Pack similar to the one released for Heretic 2. That patch overhauled the the blade/staff combat system.

Last edited by MrCrusher; 04-16-2002 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 04-17-2002, 07:56 AM   #18
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Wow, never posted anything b4... its good to get some responses like this and realise that its just not me having control problems... I swear I've been playing this game for days on end....love the combat... but when it comes to a duel (exciting stuff), I dont think I've improved from day 1.
StellerWinds had a good question about the x-box control.. (how is it better)?.. well, its got 2 analogue thumpad controls... 1 for movement, the other for lightsaber swing, put simply it rocks.
I think I might have to try a gamepad for JKII, as a mouse may just be unable to implement movement and saber control at the same time..... but.... at them moment you cant do both anyway so I'm still screwed... ARGHhhh..
Kinda wish I hated this game, but I cant.... most games have teething problems....till then.
MAY THE PATCH BE WITH YOU
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Old 04-17-2002, 08:25 AM   #19
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I was thinking on how to improve attacks and came up with an idea. This will probably sound foolish but can anyone tell me the command to bind (if its possible) three commands to the mouse.

1) left mouse to slash left
2) middle mouse to slash top down foward
3) Right mouse to slash right

Hmm, I know it will limit my saber controls but... for me it would be quick and easy...remembering there are three stances, I would guess that the attacks on the coresponding mouse buttons would chane the attacks most times they are used.

Hmmm, until then I think I might do some private wall training, and try and get some control, I hate coming last on multiplay....although I am slowly crawling my way up to half way (sometimes) on the scores at the end of the match

Thanx guys...until next time
MAY THE PATCH BE WITH YOU....
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Old 04-17-2002, 11:14 AM   #20
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This is a cut from Duel.cfg with a few changes:

set lslash "+moveleft; +attack; wait; wait; -moveleft; -attack"
bind mouse1 "vstr lslash"

set rslash "+moveright; +attack; wait; wait; -moveright; -attack"
bind mouse2 "vstr rslash"

set dlslash "+forward; +attack; wait; wait; -forward; -attack"
bind mouse3 "vstr dlslash"


Read my first reply to your post... yes you can use any attack while moving in any direction but you will need a Saitek SGE like interface with a programable controller. You will also need a good JO profile for the SGE which I could give you, but just like the current JO control system there is a med/high learning curve.


The best way to improve your skills is to fight on a FFA server that is hosting only 1on1 duels, this way you can fight constantly, with more control and pick/choose who you fight.

Last edited by MrCrusher; 04-17-2002 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 04-17-2002, 11:41 AM   #21
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Re: Re: Great but old idea...

Quote:
Originally posted by Econ


Im sure all of you guys have seen the movie "Monty Pythons The Quest for the Holy Grail"
Remember how the Black knight got dismembered. Thats what Die by the Sword always reminded me of.

ITS JUST A FLESH WOUND!



What does Bob Dole think? Bob Dole thinks he's a doofus!

Later Losers!
OUT!
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Old 04-17-2002, 11:53 AM   #22
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oh changing the bots saberspecialist command, where is that located at? whats the filename i have to change?
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Old 04-17-2002, 12:49 PM   #23
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well i tried to edit the reborn bot file. i extracted it, changed it to 5, then tried to add it back into the pk3 file. but it says Error: Cannot create output file c:\Lucasarts\Jedi Knight II\Gamedata\base\assest0.pk3. so how do i change the file?
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:04 PM   #24
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Thanks Mr Crusher... I will give this try and let you know how it goes...its midnight now and I have to start early. When I try it i'll post what I think of the changes back here ASAP.
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:16 PM   #25
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if you want to change the saber specialist to 5
extract the file, make the changes
make a pk3 file called bots or summit in ur base dir
make a folder, "botfiles" add ur personality file
the files r the .jkb files in the botfiles dir
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:28 PM   #26
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whoa whoa dont go so fast darth LOL! ok so i extracted the reborn.jkb file. i changed it specialist to 5. then i put it into a pk3 file. now i made a folder named botfiles in gamedata/base directory.i put the reborn.pk3 file into that folder. is that correct? is there a command ingame to see if its working?
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:33 PM   #27
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no, sorry
in ur bots.pk3 that u created
right click and press new folder(or something along those lines)
add the .jkb into that new folder in the pk3
put the pk3 in ur gamedata/base dir
ask again if u dont understand
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:37 PM   #28
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the folder that u add to ur bots.pk3 has to be called botfiles
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:39 PM   #29
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ok i get what your saying but when im in the pk3 and right click theres no option to create a new folder. it just has a bunch of sort options and properties.
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:41 PM   #30
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easy!

go to any dir and press create new folder and call it botfiles
go to ur pk3 and press add, then add that folder
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:47 PM   #31
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hehe it wont let me add the folder. when i click on folder and hit add, it just opens the folder.
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Old 04-17-2002, 02:24 PM   #32
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ok i have another idea, put ur .jkb into the folder u created
then add it
if that still doesnt work i recommend getting a program called WinRar its much easier
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Old 04-17-2002, 02:29 PM   #33
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u can get WinRar from
www.rarsoft.com
thats much easier to use, my method works with that
i use it u see
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Old 04-17-2002, 05:41 PM   #34
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whew... ok darth i think i got it right. i downloaded the winrar (first time ive ever used this program). i put the modified reborn.jkb file into a folder called botfiles. then i used winrar to zip up the folder and called it bots.pk3. is this correct? how can i tell if its working ingame?
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Old 04-17-2002, 07:56 PM   #35
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bump!
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Old 04-17-2002, 07:57 PM   #36
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play a level like bespin (any mode) and put about 10 bots in, make them ALL reborn
lower the speed by typing g_speed 200 in the console (shift + `)
it doesnt matter wat mode but u shud c more blocking happen from them, theyll do more moves and dont run away very often unless there nearly dead
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