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Old 04-16-2002, 07:42 PM   #1
grandmasterlee
 
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Red face Saber Combat, How to Fix it:

The problem with saber combat as it stands, is that movement is tied to saber control.

Thus you have to move in a certain direction to also swing in that direction. This renders saber combat clunky and predictable, frustrating and imperfect.

You cannot run at an opponent and control your swings with any degree of exact control. While you can quickly tap strafe keys and resume forward movement, this is an obtuse way of controlling saber movement. Many of the swings feel randomly generated, and especially in the case of repeated swings the saberist can find himself performing spinning moves that are unintended.

All because movement is tied to the saber. Trying to dodge and swing with any real confidence is also impossible.

Solution

Bind the second mouse button to free saber movement.

Moving the mouse with the second button held would swing according to mouse movement. So for example:

Horizontal Swing: Hold mouse 2 and move the mouse right/left

If you want to repeatedly fan your saber back and forth in front of you then just hold mouse 2 and move the mouse back and forth.

Diagonal Swing from upper left to lower right: Hold mouse 2 and move the mouse to the lower right.

Spinning slash right Hold mouse 2 and move the mouse right and click.

Combo Example:

Horizontal swing right, diagonal slash down and left, spin left and slash left:

Hold mouse 2, move mouse right, down and left, left and click.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For opponents that are moving past you/over you, or in cases with multiple attackers you would need to turn with your swings.

If you held both mouse 1 and mouse 2, you could then have the players body rotate with the swings along with the camera.

So:

Mouse 1, same type of combat as we have now

Mouse 2, locks you facing forward, swings are performed by moving the mouse.

Mouse 1&2 (or any button), swings are performed by moving the mouse, in addition the camera and your torso rotate with the swings. Usefull when opponents flip over you, roll past you, or if you are fighting multiple opponents.

Sound good?


Last edited by grandmasterlee; 04-16-2002 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:52 PM   #2
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I remember Die By The Sword....booooooy did that control scheme need work...or maybe they fixed it. I never got used to it.

But if it's bound to mouse, then you'd need many more controls if you wanna move your body while controlling the saber.
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:59 PM   #3
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Lucas Arts tried the "sabre attached to mouse thing" in Obi Wan for the PC....the sabre combat was so difficult that they scraped the project.
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Old 04-16-2002, 08:01 PM   #4
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I like saber combat the way it is. I know find it simple to get in there and make the hit I want. Example: A guy had a strong stance, he was swinging, went in, made a perfect slice right through his midsection. I find it fine the way it is. Except that whole collision thing.
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Old 04-16-2002, 08:02 PM   #5
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....but if you could set attacks to your own custom mouse movements instead of predefined movements. That might be easier to learn.
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Old 04-16-2002, 08:04 PM   #6
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Yes that's a good point Jake.
I edited my original post to take your point into account, thanks.
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Old 04-16-2002, 08:31 PM   #7
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Oh yes grandmasterlee you are speaking what I'm constantly thinking. Sabercombat is so absolutely FRUSTRATINGLY unpredictable and random that I decided to lay multiplayer on hold for a while (maybe a patch will at least remove that there are various moves for one key/mouse move).

Even in games where I'm not one of the lowest scorers I don't really feel the satisfaction I have in Wolfenstein or Red Faction, simply because I don't feel I deserved these kills. Many of them are just lucky hits.

But what really kills my nerve is that some people really seem to be able to master sabercombat and obtain frags by controlled action. There must be some trick to it but I'll be damned, I just don't get it. And it's not about a lack of training. After playing the game for several hours each day since release, I do expect at least some visible improvement in control and skill. But I still get mostly lucky hits (and more often get killed).

Sabercombat MUST GET MORE CONTROLLABLE!
give me accurate feedback
give me control

I hate games where I win and loose without knowing why
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Old 04-16-2002, 08:42 PM   #8
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Theres this thing they put in JO called linking attacks. Basically all you do is hold down the attack button, and press forward, back, strafe left or right at the right times. Even a combination of forward/back and strafe will give you more moves to do. I don't see how more controlable it can get.


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Old 04-16-2002, 08:49 PM   #9
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If you really want a fix, correct the cruddy hit detection. When you do that, then cause the blocking detection to work better, and have heavy (red) stance attacks more blockable, possibly just knocking back the defenders saber.

Fixing the hit detection should be priority.


-- Jiro Kage
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Old 04-16-2002, 08:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hell Raiser
Theres this thing they put in JO called linking attacks. Basically all you do is hold down the attack button, and press forward, back, strafe left or right at the right times. Even a combination of forward/back and strafe will give you more moves to do. I don't see how more controlable it can get.
I think they also mean a way so that you don't stray too far off and accidentally topple over something to your death...or is that just me?

Oh and Jiro makes a good point.
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Old 04-16-2002, 09:19 PM   #11
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I meant that I want to have only one move per key combo. So if I Strafe + primary attack I want a swing to the left and NOT three variations of a swing to the left. Currently you are never sure which move EXACTLY you will get.
Therefore sabercombat becomes unpredictable.

And Jiro is indeed right. The hit detection is totally buggy. You can see your saber swinging right through the whole body of your opponent and doing NO damage at all, while on other occasions you kill someone by mereley bumping into him.

Also feedback is very bad. I often get hit for about 90% of my life and all I get as a warning is the same cry as always (no blood, no being hit hard animation, no flickering screen, nothing). The same is true for hitting an opponent. Most of the time I don't even know if I scored a hit or completely missed.
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Old 04-16-2002, 09:30 PM   #12
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One thing they should fix that would do alot for saber combat is the fact that when you're hit by a saber you're pushed back like if you were kicked by a T-Rex. Please when you get hit by a light saber you shouldn't move at all. Also make the visuals better when hit... it can be really hard to see. Enabling didmemberment in MP would be cool too. One fun thing about Rune was that you could get your arms cut off and still be alive... so much fun... they would grow back our when you healed though It would be cool to see something like that.
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Old 04-16-2002, 09:36 PM   #13
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My only prob with the saber combat as of now are that it can get too fast paced, (I would prefer ESB /ROTJ saber fighting than TPM) and like you said, that your attacks are linked with your movement. My only conclusion is that since this keyboard/mouse thing isnt working, and since games like obi-wan where you yoused to mouse to contral it are way to hard to do (if you havent played one before take my word for it, way way way way way harder than jkii sabering), is that if somehow LEC could be SURE that it would sell alot, they'd have to make some new controller thats like a modified joystick/keyboard thing where you control your saber fighting on, but they would never do it, so lets take what we can get and make some kickass mods for it when (if they ever get around to it ) the SDK comes out.


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Old 04-16-2002, 11:00 PM   #14
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I agree that it would be nice to be able to stand still and use different swings. I'm pretty happy with saber combat overall but some of the changes mentioned in this post would be nice
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Old 04-16-2002, 11:43 PM   #15
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I think for the most part, the saber combat is wicked, and I'm glad they somewhat-sorta-kinda modeled it from Obi-Wan. But I totally agree about hit detection being ridiculous on occasion. I've seen a few instances in sp and mp where my slashes go clean through my opponent without any damage.
Linking attacks could use a bit of work as well. I've got most of the moves down "ok" but I'd like to be able to link more of the moves together for an aggressive attack. And I'm still not comfortable just standing still so I can be in a defensive stance.
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:01 AM   #16
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Speaking of Obi-Wan, it certainly wasn't the best of Star Wars games, but the saber control was excellent. I'd take that over the saber control in Outcast anyday. With Outcast being a mouse and keyboard game, you really can't use the same model, but I wouldn't mind it if there was some controller that was "officially approved" by Lucasarts and allowed you the same control that the Xbox controller did.

Wow, I never thought I'd be praising the Xbox controller.
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:14 AM   #17
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How to master saber dueling.
...
...
...
Timeing, Strat, practice.
You need to know when to attack, which type of attack to use, when to use it, and be able to do that when called upon to do it.
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:26 AM   #18
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Az, it's not a matter of mastering the current system....if the saber fighting was simply one button that did only one attack you could still say there is strategy and tactics involved to win, and there would be.

It's that the fundamental system leaves much to be desired. Most people don't even know what we are talking about, but for those that do, we realize there is a higher form of saber combat that will only be possible if the system receives a little overhaul.

What I proposed is only an addition to the current system, it doesn't change the standard attacks with mouse 1.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On the subject of collision detection, I didn't address that as it deserves its own thread.....and there's quite a few out there already.
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:26 AM   #19
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Man, that would ROCK if they would allow ONE custom made saber move (legal of coarse, IE, not where his arm twisting 360 or something, but a realistic legal move)


Current in-game name is #include
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:31 AM   #20
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Perhaps, but from what I gather, that would mean alot more mouse movement. So if I wanted to do a left horizontal slash I would hold my 2nd mouse button and move my mouse left and press the left mouse button?
That would also eat up my mouse capibilities because I only have 2 mouse buttons and a wheel. Wouldn't this be easier for people with more then 2-3 button mouse? I think that is another reason why they made the interface the way they did, so they could try to balance the hardware bias that you get with fps.
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:44 AM   #21
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Not exactly Az,

A horizontal slash left would just be moving the mouse left while holding down mouse 2. If you keep mouse 2 held down, then wherever you move the mouse your saber would go.

The only clicking would be if you wanted to do a spin attack, then you would move the mouse in the direction of the spin and click mouse 2.

Make sense?
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Old 04-17-2002, 02:10 AM   #22
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The only reason why saber control is out of control is because of how random the swings are. There is no way to fix it unless Raven changes it so that for each direction there is only 1 kind of swing, like it is in SP. In SP you stand still and swing the saber does one thing every time. In MP, you stand still and swing and the saber does 4 different kinds of swings randomly.
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Old 04-17-2002, 06:18 AM   #23
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What would be interesting, seeing as how there are three levels of Saber Offence and Defence, is to have a Primary and Secondary button. One attack, one defence. Your character, depending on how skilled you are, will not automatically defend against anything but blaster shots. And you have to press defend to make him block the moves. The more skilled, the quicker you can keep blocking, and the more likely you are to stop all attacks coming at you.

The attack would make your character do the best attack, depending on their stance.

If both people pressed attack at the same time, or defence, then it would result in a saber lock...


Interesting at least, if not practical, as it would limit the fun of using the saber.


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Old 04-17-2002, 09:00 AM   #24
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Go here and download the demo of Die by the Sword. You'll see how the system works then... it's only 14-15 MB.

http://www.interplay.com/dbts/index.html
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Old 04-17-2002, 09:16 AM   #25
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bind [key] freesabermovement ?
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Old 04-17-2002, 10:01 AM   #26
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Lightbulb Saber Control Complaints Generally

There seems to be an awful lot of complaints about the saber system in JK2. Whilst the issues with collision detection are valid, I can't agree with those who feel the control system is poor. I think problems arise because people are literally "thinking" too much. This seems to be a problem with PC gamers....too much thinking, not enough reflex. I find that after a few days I can use the saber with precision and hit exactly where I wish to 90% of the time...not by thinking what key do I press but simply by doing so automatically. Those who find the system totally random need more practice in my view...whilst those who think the system could be better are probably right. However, as it is, I think it's great, as is the game as a whole.

First post, impressive site, thanks for listening.
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Old 04-17-2002, 10:27 AM   #27
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Oh and just so you know.... I posted the dbts link so people could see just how useless this free saber movement is... it handles badly, it looks ugly and you have to turn by using keys... bugger!
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Old 04-17-2002, 11:04 AM   #28
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Saber combat is by no means broken


it does mnot need "fixed"

it is not random

it is not awkward

i can control it perfectly


you need to stop posting complaints and PRACTICE!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-17-2002, 11:06 AM   #29
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Aahhhh the good old obiwan glyph system idea

now who was it who got fired for unsuccessfully trying to implement that?


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Old 04-17-2002, 11:27 AM   #30
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Die by the Sword. Wild and wierd game. Thanks for the link

VSIM on the other hand might have some usefullness in JO.

This would solve many of these concerns.

Allow players to setup custom linked attacks to certian keys ....something a little more powerful than editing the JO config file. Something in the User Interface that is easy for all to understand.
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Old 04-17-2002, 12:32 PM   #31
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Its pretty simple really, the saber combat will NOT change unless you get off your lazy buts and mod it. There will not be a new game for quite a while so either you get better at what we got (which imho is greatness) or you get the fluck out. All this ranting about saber control and what not....well its just fluff. I can understand the combat system didnt live up to your high standards, so just build a new one. Its not going to be tweaked in a patch, its not going to be an addon, i think raven did a wonderfull job of appealing to people of all types. Then again, i guess the natural tendency of people is to complain instead of complement.

-Wolf


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Old 04-17-2002, 12:45 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Valdarious
The only reason why saber control is out of control is because of how random the swings are. There is no way to fix it unless Raven changes it so that for each direction there is only 1 kind of swing, like it is in SP. In SP you stand still and swing the saber does one thing every time. In MP, you stand still and swing and the saber does 4 different kinds of swings randomly.
EXACTLY!

dunno why some people still insist they don't have trouble with that...
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Old 04-17-2002, 12:59 PM   #33
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Wolf,

Saying "get off your butt and mod" isn't really that helpful either. Honestly, I think the sabre combat SHOULD be changed, from the way it's done in SP to the way it's done in MP. As far as people voicing their opinions on it being more concerned with complaining than complimenting, I see nothing wrong with that, if it ultimately results in Raven sitting up and taking notice that a vocal portion of the people who play this game are dissatisfied with the sabre fighting in MP. I don't mind the current control method, but I think that there should be a bit better chance of blocking and that some smoothness of control needs to be implemented.

As far as modding goes, good luck on that without the SDK. And don't hold your breath on getting that any time soon. Like I've said elsewhere, RTCW has been out for 6 months, and we're JUST NOW starting to hear rumors that the SDK will be released in the not-too-distant future.
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:04 PM   #34
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So you can target correctly with this?:

"Originally posted by Valdarious
The only reason why saber control is out of control is because of how random the swings are. There is no way to fix it unless Raven changes it so that for each direction there is only 1 kind of swing, like it is in SP. In SP you stand still and swing the saber does one thing every time. In MP, you stand still and swing and the saber does 4 different kinds of swings randomly."

I wonder how - this is no matter of training.


But you are right, I don't think we can do this ourselves. All our hopes lie with Raven. Oh and Dunno about Wolfenstein and a public SDK but they recently published even the sourcecode!
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:31 PM   #35
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solo,
for raven to renig and revamp the lightsaber multiplayer combat would be essential to saying ...hey guys we Fked up...lez fix this pos. The system is not a POS, i fail to see how it is even "random" when i can duplicate the moves i need and want at anytime. From a business point of view, there is no way nor any reason to change the combat. They made the combat the way it is for a reason, tweaking the hit detection or the netcode are valid points i agree, however emulating something they obviously did not want to (the single playercombat) in a patch would be ludicrious. I for one have no problem owning with the lightsaber as it is now in multiplayer, to be honest i prefer it. The sheer thril of going up against a fellow "human" with a lightsaber excites me, maybe im simple.

-Wolf

p.s. Im not trying to be combative, sometimes my writting is edgy, i enjoyed your read very much solo


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Old 04-17-2002, 02:49 PM   #36
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Hey Silent,

I've played the blue print for the JO sabre system, Heretic 2 for quite a while. Context sensitive attack is the ONLY way to do it.

I think this thread started as a discussion for suggestions, tweaks and changes to the existing system.

First, Raven does listen to the community. They heavily patched the blade/staff system For H2. Are you implying that they are not willing to do this?

Secondly, I do not rant. I make suggestions for improving a small aspect of an already an excellent game. I've always been a fan of Raven's games.

Some may appear to rant, but look at them as only suggestions from those not as capable as you are at sabre-ing or posting.

And finally any change Raven does make will most likely be a well thought out needed change.

Good Luck
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Old 04-17-2002, 02:59 PM   #37
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what are you talking about with "randomness"????

the behavior is identical for me evertime!

if you dont want all the twirling and swooping, only tap the mouse button when you move lef/right etc
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Old 04-17-2002, 04:43 PM   #38
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Stand still and hit attack a few times, then you know what I mean.
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Old 04-17-2002, 05:28 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi-Bert
Saber combat is by no means broken


it does mnot need "fixed"

it is not random

it is not awkward

i can control it perfectly


you need to stop posting complaints and PRACTICE!!!!!!!!!!!!
I admit that I dont think it needs to be fixed.

It IS random in a sense, go in a game and stand still and swing about 15 times, you will see that it IS in fact random. You still kind of swing the same way all the time but it is still random.

True, its not awkward

I like the way the saber is controled, I just wish "sometimes" I could do the exact move that I wanted when I wanted. Its impossible to do that at the moment, but its still fun.
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Old 04-17-2002, 05:47 PM   #40
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Crusher,

Great points, i played heritic 2 alot as well, i remember some of the overhauls they made to that game which were all sweet imho. However the system was good to begin with, they were just minor tweaks. People are saying the system is "random" or implying that its utter crap, i do not belive this to be the case. To "those" select people i say boo urns , to those who want minor tweaks, more power to ye! :P


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