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Old 04-06-2000, 05:15 PM   #81
Vagabond
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wiz,

My mistake, it was TAF who was advocating prohibition.

Anyway, back to this valedictorian that drank himself to death. One thing I've noticed in life is that a significant portion of people with a high level of book smarts, tend to be deficient in common sense. Let's face it, it doesn't take genius to reach the brilliant conclusion that drinking 21 drinks as fast as you can will likely lead to your own demise. He may not have been suicidally stupid, but he was stupid nonetheless. Like I said, I believe this is a classic example of natural selection in an urban environment. You apparently have a different belief, and so here we are



------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...



[This message has been edited by Vagabond (edited April 06, 2000).]
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Old 04-06-2000, 05:18 PM   #82
Ikhnaton
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taf, I have to say that your last post really made me sick. Your whole attitude that this substance that is only used for personal pleasure is a bad thing made me want to puke.

You really show your ignorance of alcohol.
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Old 04-06-2000, 05:19 PM   #83
wizzywig
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Thumbs up

Actually, Vagabond, I agree with you on the book smarts/common sense distinction. Good point.

--wiz



[This message has been edited by wizzywig (edited April 06, 2000).]
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Old 04-06-2000, 05:54 PM   #84
Vagabond
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wiz, thanks.


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All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

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Old 04-06-2000, 06:46 PM   #85
theahnfahn
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Roughly one in eight American adult drinkers is alcoholic or experiences problems due to the use of alcohol. The cost to society is estimated at in excess of $166 billion each year.

Alcohol is a key factor in 68% of manslaughters, 62% of assaults, 54% of murders and attempted murders, 48% of robberies, and 44% of burglaries.
I make myself sick too, Ikhnaton. Now listen to me, and PLEASE stop treating me as someone who doesn't even have the right to tell you why I feel this way. Every solid point I have made, every question I have asked the drinkers to answer, has been left untouched with a measly response like "You make me want to puke." Fine, you simply can't stand me, and I can't help that. I say the things I do because I care for your situation, and if you cared for mine you would do more than refuse answers to my questions and disrespect my opinion without backing up yours. I hardly have the time to keep defending myself here, but now it seems I am defending someone else entirely. Will everyone please stop pinning things on me and taking offense at things I don't even say?

Vagabond says "My mistake, it was TAF who was advocating prohibition." What in the world?!? The second Wiz the Prohibitionist declares for the 10th. time he doesn't want a ban on alcohol somebody else needs to be the unlucky target? I can't see how I could possibly make my point any clearer, but I will go ahead and take another hour out of my day to express this to you.

http://www.health.org/pubs/catalog/RP0s.htm#Alco
That is a website. As we all know by now alcohol is a drug, and should be treated as such. Read the affects of abuse AS WELL AS mild, moderate use.

http://www.health.org/pubs/qdocs/alcohol/bac-chrt.htm
Another website, more informative than the last. For men, IMPAIRMENT begins with one drink. If you don't know what that means:

impair(v)-to make worse, less, weaker; damage, reduce.

Impairment on any level has shown to have disadvantages, so it can be said drinking on any level has disadvantages, which is a totally truthful statement.

http://www.health.org/pubs/qdocs/alcohol/teenalc1.htm
A good article with many points, of which I will qualify.

"Information from the 1998 NHSDA shows that the level of alcohol use is strongly associated with illicit drug and cigarette use...53% of current alcohol users also smoked cigarettes as did 71% of binge alcohol users and 77% of heavy alcohol users"

"People who begin drinking before age 15 are four times as likely to develop alcohol dependence and more than twice as likely to develop alcohol abuse than those who delay drinking until age 21 (Grant and Dawson 1997)."

The article goes on and on, explaining the vast number of drinkers UNDER LEGAL AGE who drink alcohol. Under parental supervision or not, alcohol consumption is ILLEGAL until the age of 21.

No Vagabond, I do not wish a ban on alcohol. That, after seeing the affect I had on drinkers for just expressing my dislike for the substance, has shown me how much some of you praise this substance. I wish that everyone would make the realization of what this substance has done to humanity, and make the conscious decision, to CHOOSE not to drink. I can't force this on you, but when drinkers openly express their disgust for my opinion and their understanding that I am an ignorant fool, then what am I to do but abstain from expressing my opinion? Well, I never get my feelings hurt, so keep up the disrespect and I will keep telling you what I feel.

Now, again, why I feel this substance is bad. As of yet I still haven't heard an answer to a question I have asked repeatedly - What differentiates alcholic moderation from moderation of "worse" drugs? As seen from one of my above quotes, drinkers also smoke cigarettes. The also have a higher percentage of other drug use. Now, answer this for me, please. Why is it correct for the government to declare some drugs illegal under your train of thought? I should be allowed to do whatever the hell I want, just as long as it doesn't get out of hand. YOU TELL ME how I can know your drinking is and will always be under control, so I don't have to worry that you are living an unhealthy lifestyle or will kill someone under impairment.

I presented a valid proposition earlier. I asked what would be wrong in banning HARD LIQUOR, the kind with a high alcohol percentage meant for the sole purpose of getting drunk. If you don't drink for that reason then what is the problem? I don't think I was out of line for asking everyone's opinion on that.

So what is my position, you are asking. Here is another website, with the positive health affects alcohol has.

http://www.health.org/pubs/qdocs/alcohol/alcohol45.htm
This website goes into many details on why MODERATE drinkers may have reduced risk of heart disease. Now, I argue that one could just as easily seek a prescription that would be less expensive, have no risk of forming a fatal addiction, and do just the same for heart disease, but nothing is stopping you from drinking. But the article also says:

"The apparent benefits of moderate drinking on CHD mortality are offset at higher drinking levels by increasing risk of death from other types of heart disease (5,16,32); cancer; liver cirrhosis; and trauma, including trauma from traffic crashes (47). Moderate drinking is not risk free. The trade-offs between risks and benefits can be exemplified by the fact that alcohol's anticlotting ability, potentially protective against heart attack, may increase the risk of hemorrhagic stroke, or bleeding within the brain (12)."

So, like always, alcohol is a tradeoff. I have admitted this all along. You drink it for personal satisfaction, and it has its advantages and disadvantages. IN MY OPINION, the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages, but that is my opinion and I recognize it may be flawed. As I have said repeatedly, which has made many people wish to puke, I advise you to see a doctor about your drinking. That is all I ask, all I wish of you. Is that not totally innocent? In all likelihood both perspectives we argue are flawed, but for anyone who drinks what harm could it do to seek medical advice outside of what you believe yourself, have read, or have heard from me?

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn
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Old 04-06-2000, 07:09 PM   #86
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TAF,

Quote:
I do not wish a ban on alcohol. That, after seeing the affect I had on drinkers for just expressing my dislike for the substance, has shown me how much some of you praise this substance...
I don't praise alcohol. I praise my freedom, and don't like people telling me what to do or how to live my life.

What you are observing is a manifestation of me fighting for my individual liberty. If I want to drink an occasional alcoholic beverage, then I will fight for that option. I would be just as vocal over my right to watch porn, burn the American flag in protest, for a woman to chose to terminate her pregnancy, or for a terminally ill person to terminate his or her own life.

So long as what I do doesn't harm anyone else, then what I do is my business. I'm all about freedom and choices, and I will fight viciously to preserve these freedoms if necessary.

P.S. I do not want to enter a debate on flag burning, porn, etc.


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All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

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Old 04-06-2000, 07:15 PM   #87
Ikhnaton
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taf, i never stated that i couldn't stand you, but your whole position on this just shows a narrow mindset and ignorance of anything other than stats. Statistics never lie, but liars use statistics. I'm not saying you're a liar.

Hard liquor is NOT for the sole purpose of getting drunk fast. People who pound shots, yes, but those who drink sex on the beach, or rum and coke or whatever is a totally different story.

ever read warnings on the back of certain cold medicines? They warn about drowsiness and other possible impairments. should they be banned too? I mean, you're only taking it to relieve symptoms so that you feel better. Isn't that selfish? Why not suffer?

The fact is, if you say that drinking is always wrong for the reasons you do, you have to condemn a lot of other things.

If, by your drinking, you seriously damage your health, or cause any kind of injury (physical or mental) to someone else, then that is bad. But just to drink in moderation is NOT BAD!! If it was bad, then Jesus was a sinner. But since I don't know whether you believe Jesus was God or not, I don't think that carries any weight with you. But since I still consider you, in my mind, as being an agnostic, why would you be concerned about a "vice" such as selfishness? What merit do you see in being unselfish?

Just as there is nothing wrong with eating food that tastes good, or eating candy, or taking medicine to make you feel better, there is nothing wrong with drinking in moderation. If you think all drinking is bad, try to convince my 83 year old grandmother's doctor of that. She has been prescribed 2 highballs a day (those contain hard liquor which you want to ban). Would you deprive my grandmother of her medicine?
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Old 04-06-2000, 08:05 PM   #88
wizzywig
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Arrow

Just an observation:

It seems to me that TheAhnFahn has taken the high road of factual discussion, backed up by data. Vagabond, too, expressed himself admirably, clarifying the real source of his feelings in the matter.

I'm troubled that Ike resorts to ad hominem attacks of this sort:

Quote:
taf, I have to say that your last post really made me sick. Your whole attitude that this substance that is only used for personal pleasure is a bad thing made me want to puke.
You really show your ignorance of alcohol.
I also think it unwise to widen the war into the realm of religion (I should talk, right? )

Ike-- You do have me intrigued. What conceivable medical condition is treatable with a coupla highballs a day? Sounds like placebo therapy to me, but if I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected.

--wiz

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Old 04-06-2000, 08:25 PM   #89
Ikhnaton
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I don't know my grandmother's medical history, I just know that she said the doctor told her to have 2 highballs a day. Are you going to argue with a doctor?
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Old 04-06-2000, 08:27 PM   #90
Ikhnaton
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btw, wiz, I didn't attack his person in any way except to say that he is showing his ignorance of alcohol. I said that his arguments and his position make me sick. I've been reading this thread a lot and posting a lot less, but most of ahnfahn's arguments just upset me.
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Old 04-06-2000, 08:38 PM   #91
wizzywig
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Unhappy

The fact that TheAhnFahn doesn't drink doesn't make him ignorant. In fact, the information he presents gives me the impression that he is extremely well versed in the subject. At the very least, he's done his homework.

A person doesn't have to have been to Jupiter to be a very knowledgeable astronomer. A person doesn't have to be a drug addict, or even a one-time user, to be an authority on addiction.

You certainly have every right to disagree with TAF, but the term "ignorant" seems wildly inappropriate, from where I'm sitting.

And the intense expressions of disgust (puke, etc.) bothered me a lot.

--wiz

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Old 04-06-2000, 09:20 PM   #92
theahnfahn
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Just as there is nothing wrong with eating food that tastes good, or eating candy, or taking medicine to make you feel better, there is nothing wrong with drinking in moderation. If you think all drinking is bad, try to convince my 83 year old grandmother's doctor of that. She has been prescribed 2 highballs a day (those contain hard liquor which you want to ban). Would you deprive my grandmother of her medicine?
Ok, let me just add to my last post. Ikhnaton and Vagabond and everybody else - I don't think ALL DRINKING is bad. This has been my indirect point all along, but I guess you have missed it. But in this manner, any and all substances, when used in moderation, are not bad. Don't you see this? Nobody has answered my question yet, why we would outlaw some drugs and not others. My stance is that ALL substances should be treated with respect, and you obviously treat alcohol in this manner. But respect isn't always enough! You keep going back to the argument about candy. Let us just say we compare drinks, root beer to alcoholic beer. It would take months of soft drink abuse to have an affect on your health, and I argue it would never affect your mental judgements. But two drinks of alcohol and there is no argument that something COULD happen. I'm not saying it ever will, but you run a FAR greater risk.

Your grandmother serves my argument more than yours. She was PRESCRIBED two highballs a day. A ban on hard liquor would only stop easy access to abusers of this substance, whereas your grandmother could still go to her local pharmacy and pick up her prescription under medical supervision. Again, all I am asking is to have respect for the substance (which you do), NEVER abuse it, and do not simply rely on your judgement on the level and frequency of your alcohol intake. Any drug of this sort, a depressant, should always be taken under medical supervision. But when you are also tagging terms to it like "tasty" I fear your judgement may be skewed by other aspects of the substance. If I ever started to like the taste of codeine I wouldn't under any circumstances trust my judgement to use it in moderation as a relaxant. As always, I admit my opinion serves little to you, but don't treat yourself as something greater than a statistic until you go to your doctor and in complete honesty, without sugar-coating anything, tell them exactly your drinking habits and your uses of any other harmful substances (i.e. tobacco, mirajuana, etc.) for personal pleasure.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn
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