lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Official JK2 1.03 Patch Thread!
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 05-10-2002, 10:33 PM   #401
fitzwilliamd
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 265
Quote:
I was dueling one of my friends and he ran at me swinging, so I switched to Red and strafed off to the left. He went by swinging and keep running forward. I came up behind him and did the over-head Red swing, and it was blocked by his saber!

What the hell is going on!? That's stupid! How is it possible for him to reach around and block a heavy stance in his back?

If I take the time and effort to complete a strategy like that, I don't think it should be blocked, thanks to this stupid patch.

Not only that, but if people are running around swinging, it's almost impossible to actually hit them. No matter what I do, the saber is blocked. And they are swinging like crazy!

I don't get it. I try to put some strategy in and it gets unhumanly-possible blocked.
This is one of my problems with the new patch. Strategy is useless, if perfect execution results in failure. It is difficult to maneuver your opponent to be more open than smashing your saber into his unprotected backside.
fitzwilliamd is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-10-2002, 11:03 PM   #402
BlackDove
Resident Jackass
 
BlackDove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denial
Posts: 3,643
Hmm, I see everyones point, since that was what I was thinking when I first fired up this baby. However with time (one day after, I know, very short time), I realised it's not at all about the planing and tactics.

For example, I use yellow stance, hardly ever switching to red or blue. So, I'm like in this game, and I try to follow the jedi code, like maybe it will teach me something (I know, this really maybe sounds lame, but hear me out). So I somehow remember the phrase "A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack". Now you can learn a lot from that sentence. First, I check out what force is my oponent using. If he is using the dark side, then I know he will come off on me agressively and I know that he will be impatient and make the first strike. If he is using the light side, then I know he will be more like me (I'm a sucker for the good, sue me), which is more backed. Now this isn't a general rule of course, you have exceptions, but generally it is like that, since dark side users SHOW that they want to attack and destroy, and the light side users just want to defend, heal, or use the dark side to their advantage, not to mention there is protect which is blocking the sabre damage.

So to cut the long story short, I realised it's not really about thinking anymore, now you gotta rely on your basic instincts, or on what you know from before. I know that today, when I tried to keep it down, I had about 11-3 ratio of wins and losses in a big duel (were about 10 people). However later, I was nervous, and I just tried to attack, and swing and push, and it wasn't working at all...just kept SELF INFLICTING damage to myself at all times. Like I had a suicide wish.

So what I'm saying is, rely on your feelings more, and instincts, than on "Ok, he is left, so now I gotta take this stance, and then try and strike him on the lower part of the elbow, which will probably take off 34, and then I will have to change the..." *WHAM* you're dead.

Anyway, my second post here, so I am probably considered a newb, but seriously think about it. Try to rely your moves more on instinct, then on planning (considering that you know how swings work, since if you don't, you're dead anyway )


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
BlackDove is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-10-2002, 11:17 PM   #403
Nill the Mean
 
Nill the Mean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dimension Stress
Posts: 308
Timing/instincts/planning are all very important, admittedly. I have ADSL so I usually get a ping of around 50 when connceting to local servers. This eliminates the need for me to swing randomly for a start. The thing is, I was timing my hits during 1.02 and I am still timing them. Fight any match against me and you will see that I am not "flailing violently" even if you win. I SWEAR that I time ALL my hits. But timing has become partially redundant thanks to overdone saber clashing. Even if I time my attack properly it has a very large chance of being blocked in the most unbelievable times. That is why I still say it should be toned down. I am not kidding when I say I have seen impossible blocks. It really happens.
I saw one guy start a heavy overhead swing, I slashed at his gut with the strafe-swing. His hands hadn't even started coming down yet and my swing just went right through him causing NO damage at all. I don't know if this is the blcoking system messing with the collision detection, but it needs some work.

Before I get criticised...
I am not pro-1.02.
I am not pro-1.03.
I am pro-1.04.
Nill the Mean is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-10-2002, 11:24 PM   #404
BlackDove
Resident Jackass
 
BlackDove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denial
Posts: 3,643
Yes, another thing many people, including myself here, are in need, is a great patience developing. Usually I just want to "SABRE THE DAMN GUY AND BE DONE WITH IT, GIVE ME THAT DAMN KILL!!!" as I'm sure we all do. But lately I just take my time, and the duel maybe lasts for 5-10 minutes, before we are done...Of course lately accounts for the one game today, and the other two where I majorly sucked because I wanted to play "push/pull/throw sabre/get yourself hit without the other guy having to do anything" style...


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
BlackDove is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-10-2002, 11:25 PM   #405
fitzwilliamd
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 265
Quote:
I saw one guy start a heavy overhead swing, I slashed at his gut with the strafe-swing. His hands hadn't even started coming down yet and my swing just went right through him causing NO damage at all.
Previously, when an opening became available, either due to strategy on my part or my opponents carelessness, I could slash through his defenses and do damage.

This is not the case in 1.03. I can get an opponent open and slash his legs out from under him, but he mysteriously blocks from all angles. I would use terrain in the past to get above my opponent to slash down at him. Nothing works in this patch, even when the opponent is cooperating to test and learn the new game mechanics. Utilizing tools that require some modicum of skill are useless now: terrain, feints, and other thoughtful strategies.

Example: Before I was able to feign defensive action away from the intended target on my opponent’s body. I would spar with my opponents, diverting their attention away from my real purpose. With 1.03 this is useless as the intended target, once opened, is either blocked mysteriously, or is undamaged by a clean hit: e.g. their exposed back, or their open midsection as they swing overhead as you noted above.

Please dialogue with us, Raven. Tell us you are working to solve these problems.
fitzwilliamd is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-10-2002, 11:35 PM   #406
BlackDove
Resident Jackass
 
BlackDove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denial
Posts: 3,643
That's really odd, I used red stance today on an open feild against my oponent (two different games), and my red stance (normal swing) slashed right through their sabre, injuring him on the head and on the part of the leg...The other game, I did like a horizontal sweep, and it went from thie to thie, damaging both, and killing the oponent that was on 30 health (we lately ask how much hp does one have left)...Plus I wouldn't expect that my hit goes through his sabre. If the defense is what you are reffering to, I find it rather refreshing since before you could have swung blatantly all over the place and win a match (main reason why newbs were winning all the time, just swinging like idiots all the time).


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
BlackDove is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 12:48 AM   #407
XManny
 
XManny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Land of the Dead
Posts: 85
I've seen this over and over again.

Let's compare this to the Counter-Strike updates for a second:

People play Counter-Strike
50,000 Counter-Strike players exist 24/7
Word of a new patch, 1.4, comes along
Lots of hype, everyone wants the patch
Patch is released
counter-strike.net forums are spammed 2 seconds after the release
75% of the threads talk about how they "hate" the new update, how it's newbie bs, how the developers are a bunch of ****wirts with small wieners, etc.
After a week, every one is happy again.
XManny is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 04:20 AM   #408
CooLJoE
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 10
Well, to be fair, to many of the top Counter-Strike players it died like a year or 2 ago. I used to play that game alot and then cheating went rampant. Then punk buster and other anti-cheats came out. Then punk buster stopped updating and CS died again. Now supposedly there is a better anti-cheat thing and the new patch. Whats my point? CS is different from JK2. Infact I hope JK2 NEVER takes the route that CS has had to go through. So please don't compare the 2 as its a slap in the face to JK2 or any other game you compare with.
CooLJoE is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 04:21 AM   #409
CooLJoE
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 10
Here is my proposition to Raven and all others on here (more to Raven since they are the ones making the next patch). So PLEASE READ WITH AN OPEN MIND.

Here goes.


It seems to me that the Duelers are the ones who like the patch and the CTF/FFA people are the ones who do not like it. Or atleast the majority seem to think this way.

My idea is that Raven should make patch 1.04 to reflect this. Make it so CTF/FFA games use the original settings (ver 1.02) and have Duel games use the new settings (ver 1.03). I'm thinking that this will be ALOT better as a solution.

Here's my reasoning. CTF/FFA require fast quick movement and kills. You can't sit dueling 1v1, 2v1, 3v1, *gasp* 4v1 for 10 minutes in CTF/FFA (well maybe FFA, but CTF its out of the question as you need to retreive/capture the flag). Dueling is really all about the long battles.

So there you go. Thats what should happen in 1.04. Then after that happens, come back to here and find out what CTF/FFA people want changed and same for Duelers. But PLEASE do not mix the 2. They are played completely different and should be treated as such.
CooLJoE is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 08:09 AM   #410
Longshanks
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: England
Posts: 25
Thumbs up 1.03 KICKS SERIOUS ASS......i love it

Great patch......cheers Raven/LucasArts,you`ve just made multi-player even better...Yay.!!!!!!!!!!

3 cheers for 1.03!!!!....Hip Hip...hoooraaaaaaaa. !!!!!


I LOVE YOU RAVEN. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Longshanks is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 08:34 AM   #411
CooLJoE
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 10
Here's food for thought.

I just got done playing JK2 CTF on a 1.03 server for 4.5 hours. Yes thats alot of playing.

This patch is so bad, the only thing we saw THE ENTIRE TIME was people spamming the blue stance special moves. The spin move and the backstab move (more so the spin move though). I'm talking they would do it in large crowds, knock you down and do it, have someone else knock you down and do it, etc. etc.

Even after confronting them they never stopped. Made the game utterly boring and lame.

The worst part had to be when I had 100hp and grabbed shield so I was up to 80. So 100hp and 80 shield (or around that). Guy comes up, does backstab on me. BAM, I'm dead. 100hp and 80 shield gone with one move. I kid you not. This is how bad the patch has become. I can deal with DFA. This patch took a single 1-hit kill move and gave us 2 more. Hows that for quality.

Thank you Raven for making me pay money for a game and then destroying it for me. Its like buying a Porsche Boxster and then having the Porsche dealership take it back and give you a Ford Focus. Sure its driveable, but no where near worth the $50k you paid.
CooLJoE is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 10:23 AM   #412
BlackDove
Resident Jackass
 
BlackDove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denial
Posts: 3,643
50k$ for a Porscha?


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
BlackDove is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 03:08 PM   #413
GE Predator
 
GE Predator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: GE Clan
Posts: 121
Ehh what?

"My idea is that Raven should make patch 1.04 to reflect this. Make it so CTF/FFA games use the original settings (ver 1.02) and have Duel games use the new settings (ver 1.03). I'm thinking that this will be ALOT better as a solution"

No no no no no, put EVERYTHING back the way it was, guns, force, sabers. Then just keep
DFA and lunge

keep force absorb the way it is in 1.03

the fixed chopping off limbs

then to settle the drain/heal complaining. Just make it so they use 2x the force, THAT'S IT, don't make it half as effective, just make it cost more. Cause as it stands right now, 2x the price for half the effect is just wrong.

and keep the levels of course.


ATM I'm playing JO with the 1.02 patch. 1.03 sucked the fun right out of the game .
GE Predator is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 04:21 PM   #414
fitzwilliamd
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 265
Quote:
THE ONLY GOOD MOVE NOW IS BACKSLASH PLEASE FIX THIS!!!!!!
It is not completely accurate to say that only backslash is effective; it is, perhaps, the most effective. In addition to backslash, the medium special, and the strong DFA are still fairly useful in moderation.

Quote:
This patch sucks. Me and my friend tested HEAVY STANCE, I hit him 15 times, 13 out of 15 swings were blocked and resulted in NO DAMAGE.
I feel your pain. When an opponent swings wildly or slips up and you slash a heavy right down his throat, even if his saber is on the other side of his body at the end of his wild swing, he can magically block it. It is difficult to enjoy the beauty of a well-timed strike when a good hit results in no shield or health damage.

I have watched a talented player hit every opening on his opponent rhythmically, artistically, so that it takes your breath away. His opponent could not touch him. The resulting damage was negligible. This is very discouraging.

Before 1.03, I would work to create openings, slash them, and do damage. Now, taking a shot at a wide-open adversary does not mean you will damage them: skill, lightning reflexes, and adroit timing do not ensure damage, they can only ensure a clean hit. A somewhat guided randomness is the order of the day. 1.03 is so buggy that you can be completely immune to light stance attackers just by facing them, even while moving. If you do not swing or show them your backside you are invulnerable to their attacks.

Hopefully, Raven is play testing the new patch and will have some fixes available soon.
fitzwilliamd is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 04:46 PM   #415
qazzaq
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 12
Angry Recent Patch Ruined Multiplayer

The last patch that came out ruined a game that me and many of my friends truly loved.

You can now shoot people in their back/hit them in their back and they block the move when not even facing you. The blocking rate is so high now that even with heavy stance it is incredibly hard to hit people and have them not block.

DFA has been replaced with yellow stance backslash/stab which is the new "super move".

I understand nobody liked the one hit kill moves, I didnt either. But this patch has turned the game into a spam fest on almost every server where people dont even attempt to use strategy anymore.

Note: I moved your newly created thread into this official thread in order to cut down on redundancy on the next page. I also delted the two subsequent posts, because they were basically spam. -- Canoli

Last edited by OnlyOneCanoli; 05-11-2002 at 06:17 PM.
qazzaq is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 05:35 PM   #416
BlackDove
Resident Jackass
 
BlackDove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denial
Posts: 3,643
WILDCAT FOOTBALL RULES!!!!

no wait...it's...

PATCH 1.03 RULES!!!

Really much better than 1.02

Think about it. Everyone is complaining about 1.03 because they can't use the exploits of 1.02 anymore...one big shrink for everyone to go please..


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
BlackDove is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 08:00 PM   #417
idlemind
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally posted by =SSC=Kal-El
WILDCAT FOOTBALL RULES!!!!

no wait...it's...

PATCH 1.03 RULES!!!

Really much better than 1.02

Think about it. Everyone is complaining about 1.03 because they can't use the exploits of 1.02 anymore...one big shrink for everyone to go please..
hey wow thanks, I never thought of that. Because that's obviously what everyone is complaining about. Just look at the number of posts in this thread alone about no more DFA. /sarcasm

No one is complaining about that. And if you think there aren't anymore cheap moves, i just went onto a guns FF FFA server today. The only force move I bound was pull. I have no idea what any of the guns do. There must have been 20+ people on the server. I won easily by pulling people till they fell, then red backstabbing. It was cheap as hell and there was nothing anyone could do about it. Let me repeat, I had never played with guns before this one round. I don't even play 1.03 saber combat well. Sounds pretty lame to me. the only way someone else could have won was by employing the same lame tactics I used.
idlemind is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 08:22 PM   #418
BlackDove
Resident Jackass
 
BlackDove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denial
Posts: 3,643
Well I guess the patch 1.04 could abolish backstab, but the backstab was always there. It didn't come with 1.03...


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
BlackDove is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 08:43 PM   #419
Sabre_Slinger
 
Sabre_Slinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: MN
Posts: 2
Question uhmmm..

i just updated and restarted my comp, set all my multiplayer settings to defult, changed graphics to 600x800 and now when i refresh there are no servers at all... ive tried everything.


"Cowards die many times, heroes die only once"
Sabre_Slinger is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 08:58 PM   #420
BlackDove
Resident Jackass
 
BlackDove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denial
Posts: 3,643
a) check that your settings are correct (above the table with the list of servers)

b) if you had a lot of mods, and skins try reinstalling..worked for me


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
BlackDove is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 09:02 PM   #421
Sabre_Slinger
 
Sabre_Slinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: MN
Posts: 2
Unhappy

ive been playing for about a week online and i dont have any mods, this is the first patch ive dled.


"Cowards die many times, heroes die only once"
Sabre_Slinger is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-11-2002, 09:07 PM   #422
BlackDove
Resident Jackass
 
BlackDove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denial
Posts: 3,643
Humm, then I don't think I know, sorry...


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
BlackDove is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-12-2002, 03:23 AM   #423
CooLJoE
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 10
True, both the backstab and spin move were in 1.02. BUT, they didn't do much damage. Atleast not near as much as now. Those 2 moves can.....err WILL kill anyone they touch. Even with full health and none-partial-almost full shields....you'll die from those moves. I know cause it happened to me several times.

Just go back to 1.02. Raven obviously messed up and fixing it from here will only become more confusing and won't get us anywhere. Go back to 1.02, and then re-evaluate the situation.

- Force powers were fine (altho it shouldn't take 100 force to give 50 health, should be 100 force for 100 health. its a disadvantage to use force heal since you lose all your force).
- Saber blocking was better in 1.02. Infact I would rather have 1.02's blocking settings.
- The "less damage at start and end of swing" idea is good. Keep that one.
- Force absorb being invisible is ok.
- Force drain draining yourself equally is lame. I don't use it, but it should be more like 100 drain on enemy = 75 drain on yourself. That way you had a purpose to drain.
- DFA non-turning is great. Makes it less spammed. ALOT less.
- All 1-hit moves should either be removed, or lessened so no matter what, the max damage from them is only 90. 90 at the most. If person has shield, deduct their amount from total 90 (50 shield and 100 health + 1-hit move = no shield 60 health). Taking full shield and full health is just lame. And everyone and their family is using those moves. For 4.5 hours on one server they only did that move. WAY worse than DFA.
CooLJoE is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-12-2002, 10:58 AM   #424
BlackDove
Resident Jackass
 
BlackDove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denial
Posts: 3,643
Those are some very good points there, although I would have to go with this one:

(It was written by ArtifeX I think)

Quote:
When speaking about just the changes to saber combat in the v1.03 patch, I'd say that Raven failed (in part) to accomplish what they set out to do, which was (I hope) to make the game more fun by giving the players more winning tactical options to choose from. Reasons I believe this:

Things That Were Done Right
The removal of self-defeating spin swings from Medium style is a big step in the right direction. Think of it this way: if you're spinning 360-degrees through a swing, then you're spending half of your time with your saber pointed in the wrong direction. With regular swings, that happens much less. Plus, those spin swings are S-L-O-W and do the exact same amount of damage as the normal, faster ones.
The addition of Strong Style combos. This simply means you can add more attack options to your repertoire while using Strong Style. That's never a bad thing.
Repairing (not Nerfing) the DFA. Now you can't get killed instantly by a saber buried so far in the ground that you can't see it. Yay!
Making the Light Backstab and the Medium Finisher more deadly. Both of these moves were hard to do and left you open forever. Now they have the damage to balance out the risk. Good job!
Adding more duel maps!
Things That Were Done Wrong
Previously the ratios of attack damage were 30 damage for Light, 60 damage for Medium and 100 damage for Strong (reduced, 3/6/10). Now, damage has been lowered for all three, but look at the new ratios: 20-30 for Light, 30 for Medium, 40-60 for Strong. If you look at the minimums, you come up with 20/30/40 (reduced, 2/3/4); certainly more balanced, but if you look at the maximums you get: 30/30/60 (reduced, 1/1/2). How does this expand on viable choices of Stance? Looking at solely damage, why would you use Light or Medium over Strong? You can do double damage with Strong! More importantly, why use Medium over Light? It does the exact same maximum damage! What has been done here is narrow the number of winning choices, not expand upon them.
One useful tactic (maybe too useful) has been heartily nerfed: the DFA. Many will cheer this change that had difficulty defending against it, or were just annoyed by its constant use, but ask yourself how many times you've used it successfully in the new version. Would you still say it's useful? Maybe, but you will have to agree it is much less useful than before. Again, a narrowing of options.
The addition of Saber Throwing to No-Force games is ludicrous. It will just turn into a blockable boomerang fight, mark my words. Don't you think the addition of kicking into No-Force games would have been more interesting and fun? I just don't understand Raven's move on this one.
Why keep the Light Crouch Lunge swing from turning during execution? Did anyone have a problem with it? I sure didn't. Anyone? This will just cut down further on the people who actually try to use Light Stance. That==Narrowing of options.
All swings do less damage except for the backswings, which actually do so much more than before that they're almost always 1-hit kills. I've heard people tell of servers where people run around backwards trying to land these swings. That's a pretty strong statement about how much more effective these attacks are than all the others. If I gave you a butter knife, bag of rocks and a Rocket Launcher, and told you to go kill someone, which tool would you use for the job? There might be an occasional circumstance where you might use a bag of rocks, but how often would you use it in comparison to the rocket launcher? One percent? Half a percent? ...Narrowing,...Narrowing...
Double-tap Kicking. The technical problems of using this with a laggy connection and the extreme difficulty of kicking someone who is crouched forces me to give this a big thumbs-down. Now those people with modem connections or who simply have difficulty hitting their key that fast won't be able to use this attack. How does that give us more options?
Slowing down Medium swings. As if there weren't enough reason to give Medium a miss. Why was this done? To empower Light? Read carefully: Don't empower a Style by Nerfing the others! If you want to empower it, then just make it do more damage, give it more range, give it Defense Breaking, or any other number of things!
Lowered Damage for normal swings. Why lower the damage on swings that almost never connect? Light and Medium both can be blocked 100%! What difference does it make if you lower the damage? This only made sense in the case of Strong style which now requires 3 hits to kill in a duel rather than the old 2-hit kill. Light and Medium both now require at least 5 hits to kill if there is no Healing. That's a moot point when you consider that those hits will never land!
Now, to this, I would only add about the kicking part, and that is to abolish it for good. I was in a game yesterday, and there were two squad members (I forgot the name of the squad), so they were like TRAINING eachother how to kick all the time. They even had their sabres lowered. I mean I did kick both their asses, but it's not FUN anymore if people actually think that they can play like that. I hope you understand me heh


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
BlackDove is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-13-2002, 04:56 AM   #425
Doppelganger
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 11
I like most of the changes, just a couple things that irk me:

1) Saber throw is now abused; it is used even in the closest ranges because when it returns to your hand you instantly go to a ready stance. This makes it an extremely fast 30hp attack with many advantages: you are only vulnerable for a split second, you can retreat quickly, you have longer range (it takes slightly longer to do it from a small distance, but at these close ranges the time difference is pretty meaningless for all but the shortest of swings, i.e. light stance) and there is no chance of having your saber parried by a more powerful stance. I suggest a recovery time after catching the saber which may include no blocking ability for a time, reduced movement, or both. Hopefully it’ll be enough to deter wild swinging but will also not permit a person to use it when they are very close: the saber throw should be used when one clearly outflanks the enemy and gets behind them or when they make a totally superfluous swing, but the “run backwards forever and saber throw while they vainly try to swing at me until they die” routine is annoying.

2) The light stance can retreat too fast from battle…and then quickly use a saber throw. Actually, it’s these saber throwing retreating forever players that force me to use light the entire time the running battle persists: that way I can actually land a hit since I don’t slow down so much while taking a swing and I reset fast enough to usually avoid the inevitable saber throw. This lack of choice detracts from the fun in my opinion. Perhaps the movement should be slowed down while light is swinging to prevent ultra fast retreat. It’ll still be fast enough to give fast the hit and fade advantage, as light swings are very short. In ye olde days I used a DFA to get rid of these guys, but now that’s become far more difficult. (and justly so)

3) DFA seems to make much more sense now after the nerfing. Something that is odd is that I often land on top of the player I aim for and they swing at me while I’m on their head and hurt me some. It seems to me that the area where damage is dealt should be extended to right below the attacker’s feet as well.

4) On DFA: also, since there is splash damage, it looks rather funny when your saber doesn’t touch the person but you kill them anyways: perhaps some sort of animation that would turn you towards the person you hit. This is just an aesthetic thing, not a battle tweak. Not sure if that can be done gracefully.


5) Possible unintended balance change in 1.03: Many of us have noticed that after one completes a swing, most noticeably in strong, there is a period where you cannot swing but you will block. This blocking without attacking period DOES NOT WORK against saber throw, and it is this time when I most frequently get attacked by saber throw. (People can usually tell because your saber has movement blur during this stage)

6) And lastly, one tweak that would be revolutionary (and I’m not sure if it’d be good) and seems to fix many of the aforementioned problems (at least theoretically) is simply make backpedal speed slower than forward running speed, even if just a little. Often these times when I get worn down from saber throws while I vainly try to swing at my opponent and just miss by the barest of margins occur after a long, long pursuit where I try to make absolutely sure I can hit them with a swing, but after about 30 or so seconds of straight running and blocking saber throws and no swinging I get annoyed and careless.

Yeah, so basically that's it. Too much retreat+short range saber throw. fix it! and give me some comments and feedback.
Doppelganger is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-13-2002, 05:32 AM   #426
Demise_SOK
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 61
I totally dislike the new patch.

I agree with what most people have posted in here regarding how using timing and technique with the saber has been tossed to the wayside- unless you are using the newest one-hit wonder move like pull/push + backstab. Just learning how to time regular swings to kill opponents with the saber has been totally nerfed with auto-blocking and damage reduction. Hell, I swung a heavy-stance blow against the side of a medium stance user tonight and saw what pre-patch ould have been a killing blow get deflected by someone who was barely facing me. I have been playing this game on average for 2-3 hours a day since I got it like 3 weeks ago- I think I got pretty good at learning stances over that time and well-timed swings that before would not have been blocked or would have shattered saber defenses now seem to bounce harmlessly off opponents.

I also noticed that pull/push + backstab spammers are running up kill scores faster then I ever saw DFA users do it. It was almost like deja vu- someone would be owning groups of people at a time with this move and people would bitch and the reply was 'it is easily counterable' or 'you can block it' or 'just move out of the way'. ROFL just like the complaints people had with DFA. The funny thing is that when the DFA spammers said that they were more or less right(except in terms of blocking it). With DFA you could see it coming, you could force push the person away or move out of the way and you could usually get in a counter attack if you knew how to time your swing. The backstab move doesn't seem to be blockable, it is certain one hit death and try to score a hit on someone who is in the midst of this move without it either a) getting blocked or b) getting owned by their swing. So much for balance. A huge failure on the part of Raven IMO. Speaking about DFA, I love the changes they made to this overpowering move- making it so you can't rotate in midflight and stopping damage from when the saber is burried in the ground was a laudable move; to bad this needed change to DFA coincides with the stripping of saber powers in general and the ascension of the backstab move. FFA saber battles now consist of groups of people trying to back into one another, usually bent over waiting to fire off a backstab move. Don't believe me? Get out and play some and don't post in here about crap you know nothing about since you are an 3r33t du3l3R.

I like the force power changes. I like the invisibility until you are attacked when using absorb. I love the icons for servers and the added maps. As someone who loved saber combat I actually like the changes to weapons as well. But, I cannot stomach the changes to saber combat- the change to damage depending on where you are in the swing, the auto-blocking and the across the board damage reduction.

Let's face it, ass fighters and backstabbers are the only ones benefitting from this patch in saber combat. When people used these manuevers before they did so with some risk, that risk is no longer there.

I am not sure what I will do yet. Either put this game down or go back to 1.02 and miss the changes I actually like in the new patch. If they had just implimented the force changes, maps, icons and changed DFA and otherwise left saber combat the way it was I and many others I thinkwould be very, very happy.


"The King is gone but he's not forgotten. This is the story of Johny Rotten."
Demise_SOK is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-13-2002, 05:32 AM   #427
Demise_SOK
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 61
I totally dislike the new patch.

I agree with what most people have posted in here regarding how using timing and technique with the saber has been tossed to the wayside- unless you are using the newest one-hit wonder move like pull/push + backstab. Just learning how to time regular swings to kill opponents with the saber has been totally nerfed with auto-blocking and damage reduction. Hell, I swung a heavy-stance blow against the side of a medium stance user tonight and saw what pre-patch ould have been a killing blow get deflected by someone who was barely facing me. I have been playing this game on average for 2-3 hours a day since I got it like 3 weeks ago- I think I got pretty good at learning stances over that time and well-timed swings that before would not have been blocked or would have shattered saber defenses now seem to bounce harmlessly off opponents.

I also noticed that pull/push + backstab spammers are running up kill scores faster then I ever saw DFA users do it. It was almost like deja vu- someone would be owning groups of people at a time with this move and people would bitch and the reply was 'it is easily counterable' or 'you can block it' or 'just move out of the way'. ROFL just like the complaints people had with DFA. The funny thing is that when the DFA spammers said that they were more or less right(except in terms of blocking it). With DFA you could see it coming, you could force push the person away or move out of the way and you could usually get in a counter attack if you knew how to time your swing. The backstab move doesn't seem to be blockable, it is certain one hit death and try to score a hit on someone who is in the midst of this move without it either a) getting blocked or b) getting owned by their swing. So much for balance. A huge failure on the part of Raven IMO. Speaking about DFA, I love the changes they made to this overpowering move- making it so you can't rotate in midflight and stopping damage from when the saber is burried in the ground was a laudable move; to bad this needed change to DFA coincides with the stripping of saber powers in general and the ascension of the backstab move. FFA saber battles now consist of groups of people trying to back into one another, usually bent over waiting to fire off a backstab move. Don't believe me? Get out and play some and don't post in here about crap you know nothing about since you are an 3r33t du3l3R.

I like the force power changes. I like the invisibility until you are attacked when using absorb. I love the icons for servers and the added maps. As someone who loved saber combat I actually like the changes to weapons as well. But, I cannot stomach the changes to saber combat- the change to damage depending on where you are in the swing, the auto-blocking and the across the board damage reduction.

Let's face it, ass fighters and backstabbers are the only ones benefitting from this patch in saber combat. When people used these manuevers before they did so with some risk, that risk is no longer there.

I am not sure what I will do yet. Either put this game down or go back to 1.02 and miss the changes I actually like in the new patch. If they had just implimented the force changes, maps, icons and changed DFA and otherwise left saber combat the way it was I and many others I thinkwould be very, very happy.


"The King is gone but he's not forgotten. This is the story of Johny Rotten."
Demise_SOK is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-13-2002, 12:03 PM   #428
BlackDove
Resident Jackass
 
BlackDove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Denial
Posts: 3,643
Poor Raven ain't gonna be able to please everyone...well let's do what we can with 1.03, and let's hope they realise the problems in 1.04...


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
BlackDove is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-13-2002, 02:26 PM   #429
YodaJunior2
 
YodaJunior2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7
as much as the new saber system annoys me, i also find the forces to be more weighted towards light, ok, both heal and drain have been restricted, but it seems grip has been nerfed BIG time and absorb has been made better. i know a lot of people hate the "pick up, run and chuck" grip kills, but honestly, i cant see the use of it now, because even when you hold them until they have to gasp for breath, the wonderful new saber system means they usually block your blow, so I find grip next to useless now, I really dont think it was a problem before, i mean look how boring a light sider whacking on absorb then going for guns is, most lightsiders just ran around with absorv on all the time so there was no point trying to grip em, and most dark siders you had battles with.

maybe it was a little against the "spirit" of things to chuck people off ledges all the time, and you can still do it, but I feel it was just unecessarily nerfed so that now all you do is just pick em up and wave em around a bit, without forcing anyone to keep on their guard, for crying out loud, if you pick someone up and run with them they have ample time to push you away or jam on absorb again...

i just thought it was a silly nerf to make myself (I dont just get kills from chucking ppl but its fun! ) seems the game is being weighted against agressive ppl, i.e. dark side with heavy stance, towards a more lengthy (read boring) game....


....
YodaJunior2 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-14-2002, 12:15 AM   #430
JaledDur
 
JaledDur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Behind you, with a lightsaber.
Posts: 260
I wish they would fix the exploitable moves such as this classic favorite:

Push, turn around, down arrow, click, repeat.


All they have to do is push you down and then turn around and swing, thats it. At least with DFA you can get out of the way, but with this, you are totally helpless. And if you are moving trying to avoid their rear swings, you'll get your butt pushed on the ground a whole lot quicker...


Raven, I emplore you, dont go back to the way 1.02 was, but dont stay with this latest abomination. Just either:

A) Take out all the one hit kill moves or any other move that will be used repeatedly.

B) Make the special moves have a recovery time that is so great they are only used in special situations, and are not feasible for use all the time, such as what you did with the new DFA (bravo on that one btw).


Also, drain being made harder to use all the time was a great move, but the game does favor lightside at the moment because of the whole "backswing abuse" issue. Darksiders have no defense against push/pull other than putting stars on push/pull, while lightsiders can use absorb.
JaledDur is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-14-2002, 04:36 AM   #431
Doppelganger
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 11
Ironically, considering my last post, the best way to deal with the saber backstab/sweep is saber throw, a gun, or just frying them with force powers.

The backsweep does NOT block a throw, it will however deflect regular saber attacks.

Another thing that could be done is slightly reducing the arc which a player is protected when they are not swinging. This would leave someone doing backsweep more vulnerable, especially if someone expects it.
Doppelganger is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-14-2002, 04:38 PM   #432
fitzwilliamd
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 265
Quote:
As you get better the moves become more and more deep and with this patch.. im sorry to say.. there is NO DEPTH..
I agree.

Saber combat has been neutered, ‘washed down’ if you will, across all stances. Our play options have been severely reduced by this patch.

In 1.02, I liked to switch up lightsaber styles to keep my opponent off guard, but Medium was my bread and butter. With the advent of 1.03, this is not an option; granted, on occasion I will use the medium special finisher as a flourish to end a match—it still rotates unlike the light lunge special--or the silly backsweep if I happen to still be in the style when assaulted by a ‘Bun Backwards’ warrior. Those skilled with the yellow style were immediately surprised at the speed reduction garnered with the patch.

I am still at a loss to understand the new autoblock immunity that plagues light and medium users following the patch. Why was this done? Test it with a friend; he can swing all day long at you with yellow and light styles and NEVER HIT ONCE if you face them and do not swing. Where is the skill involved in that proposition? In addition, they lowered the damage on us and emasculated our ability to assault skillfully with deadly force; that is, you can make perfectly timed strikes that glance off of your opponent.

Yes, I still can kill. No, I do not enjoy it.

They should have fixed the bugs and kept the saber dynamics much the same. The fantastic ‘feel’ of the game has vanished. They were marvelous and complex.

Positives? They fixed the DFA, added some new combinations, and gave us some nice new maps. I thank them heartily for this.

Raven has foisted their new 'vision' on us: multiplayer is now like singleplayer. I find the replay value of the singleplayer to be negligible. Sadly, after being saddled with inferior saber dynamics, multiplayer has little replay value as well.

As Hamlet has it, "our withers are unwrung."

Last edited by fitzwilliamd; 05-14-2002 at 04:56 PM.
fitzwilliamd is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-14-2002, 05:55 PM   #433
fitzwilliamd
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 265
Quote:
the collision map seems screwed as well
Collision mapping does need work. Collision detection is SO important for realistic play dynamics. They have gone backwards in 1.03. A perfectly executed strike that is not blocked (rare :P) can pass right through the model without a point of shield or health damage. Tweak this please, Raven.
fitzwilliamd is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-14-2002, 09:05 PM   #434
fitzwilliamd
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 265
Quote:
Originally posted by Hado
Thanks for your comments but we, for the most part, obviously disagree. There will not be another official patch.

Michael Chang Gummelt
Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II
Raven Software
www.ravensoft.com
No further official patching. This is an odd move for a company that wishes to continue selling software in the future. This is a singular approach to product support.

Quote:
We feel sorry for people who got used to 1.02 and it's exploits and cannot adapt

Michael Chang Gummelt
Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II
Raven Software
www.ravensoft.com
Those in the community that are offering data and facts to back up their position should take great exception to such a generalization (not to mention the logical fallacies involved: ad Misericordiam, Converse Accident, etc.). I for one did not like the exploits mentioned; however, version 1.03 is fraught with bugs and poor coding choices. Perhaps Raven feels that its programmers are infallible and the bugs and gameplay problems we have identified are fantasy.

It seems that wanting to see positive changes made to the problems with the patch makes you an exploiter, incapable of adaptation, that needs to be pitied.

What wonderful hubris.
fitzwilliamd is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-15-2002, 12:19 AM   #435
flippo
 
flippo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 92
well, i'm done. this was the last straw. not only will i never ever ever ever ever buy another raven gameever, but i will take my jkii, and soldier of fortune cds outside, **** on them, then set them on fire. hey raven, take a hint from valve: PATCH YOUR GAMES AND APPEASE YOUR ****ING CUSTOMERS. this could have been a long term hit, but you just signed its death certificate. maybe if you never patched at all i might be happy, but 1.02 has problems, too. instead of listening to fans with justified complaints, you chose to completely ****ing ignore us.

i really wouldn't be that mad, but just before you decided to abandon the game, you released a patch that ****ing ruined it, first. thanks. this was my game, man. this was gonna be the game that took me away from counter-strike and half-life in general. but it's totally ****ed now. congrats, raven, you made a game that took me away from counter-strike, the world's #1 online action game. but, oh wait, you watered it down for the newbies who refuse to learn and just want to "swing dem there lightsaberz". 1.02 is still ok, but it's problems are still there, making this game have very limited replay value. without the promise of something on the horizon, people will abandon this games in droves. and the very newbies you designed the patch for will leave, too. newbies do learn after all, and they will realize, "swingin' that thar lightsaber ain't much fun anymo'." oh sure people on this forum will rise to defend the patch, saying they love it and will play it FOREVER. unlikely. they too will tire of no updates, and the "moppers" will take over every server.

i see myself playing on 1.02 servers for at most another month. it may take a few months for 1.03 to grow stale to the newbies, but it will happen. when a game takes no skill to compete in, and the players have no margin for improvement, death is inevitable.

in the end, i guess i really had your company pegged wrong. i thought you were the great 1st person shooter makers of our time. now i see you are just the "make game with someone elses engine, make millions, move on to next project" types. as it stands, you have zero, count 'em, zero games that have a great many people playing them. and now i see why. thanks for crushing my hopes for humanity.
flippo is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-15-2002, 12:24 AM   #436
flippo
 
flippo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 92
1 more thing. they closed the other thread about the raven emails, but i would just like to say that dace is one funny mother ****er.
flippo is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-15-2002, 02:46 AM   #437
fitzwilliamd
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 265
Quote:
I don't consider Raven to be the kind of company interested in building a solid community around they're game. Or at least whatever formula they extracted from the success of Q3 they are failing miserably at. Its just not in they're interests like it was ID software to build such a community. With ID software they also wanted to license the engine and as such make money by patching and upgrading that engine. But companies like raven care about no such thing. To them they want to put as little money out and get as much back in return, and if fixing some bugs we all hate doesn't accomplish that to they're liking then yes we as players are up a creek. But it's all quite simple, don't buy they're games, boycott them, talk bad about them. But the last thing you should do is buy they're game then complain. Cuz hey, after you bought it, they could care less what you say, they've got they're money.
Sadly, your statements seem accurate. Building a solid community is not a priority for them. Each time I hear Mr. Gummelt's responses, I am forced to agree.
fitzwilliamd is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-15-2002, 04:10 AM   #438
Lucky
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: alaska
Posts: 211
Drrr, is that quote for real?


Lucky


Crackas, always wastin my flava
Lucky is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-15-2002, 04:25 AM   #439
JaledDur
 
JaledDur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Behind you, with a lightsaber.
Posts: 260
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hado
Thanks for your comments but we, for the most part, obviously disagree. There will not be another official patch.

Michael Chang Gummelt
Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II
Raven Software
www.ravensoft.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We feel sorry for people who got used to 1.02 and it's exploits and cannot adapt

Michael Chang Gummelt
Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II
Raven Software
www.ravensoft.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have my doubts about the validity of those quotes, although it does seem logical in a way, and I have seen something along those lines in another thread, worded differently, in a response to a different question.


I have been in the Jedi Knight community since 1997. I loved JK, and when Obi-Wan was announced, I was extatic. Then it was cancelled for the PC. Jedi Outcast turned it all around, but now, too, because of complete ignorance and/or disconnection from the real world, the people working on this project have chosen to abandon it to the dark fields of the software graveyard, populated by such titles as Obi-Wan, Armada, Oni, and Halo. Fortunately, unlike many, this game has a group of dedicated fans that really want it to be more than it is, and to be the next BIG game.

Half-Life was played in multiplayer a LOT until Counter-Strike came along. I KNOW that there will be mods for this game, but what we need to do is get a group of mod makers to make a mod that simply fices issues with the game as it is, then, as a community, CHOOSE THAT MOD as the defacto standard.

I know there are a ton of mod makers out there working on many different patches that will do many interesting things, but I fear they will get too involved with their own agenda of making the "ultimate lightsaber combat system" with 10 buttons for blocking and 50 some odd attacks (Art of the Lightsaber mod....).

I beg of you, talented, brilliant mod makers, come together, form a team, fix the base game. Help this community stay alive. All of my friends that I had recruited to play this game with me, in my clan, for league play, etc as a replacement for Counter-Strike have all gone back to CS simply because the game is now "lame". Don't kid yourselves... It is. I am willing to donate my time to organize this if need be.

Off the top of my head, I would like to get the likes of Artifex and the team working on the Kaiburr Saga on this. I know there are many more people that could help. Please -- do so.




-JaledDur
email: jaled@sigma1.cc
JaledDur is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-15-2002, 04:57 AM   #440
Vestril
The Man
 
Vestril's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Jupiter
Posts: 2,062
I sincerely doubt that those were valid quotes, for Raven to ignore the fact that a large portion of their community would be rather silly, if they weren't prepared to make more balance changes they would have only fixed the bugs and left the gameplay the same.


Vestril was here!!!!!!!!!
Vestril is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Game Discussion > Jedi Outcast > Official JK2 1.03 Patch Thread!

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:16 PM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.