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Old 05-10-2002, 12:03 AM   #1
Spider AL
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Post patch: Yes, I feel cheap...

Those that know my name know that I am one of those evil fewls who gets his name at the top of the scoreboard as much as humanly possible. Yes, I DFA'ed. A lot. Yes, I pushed people over and shot them. Yes, I sniped, repeater-hogged, shot people fighting in groups...

But I did all these things with honour. I mean, I always gave my opponents a chance. I let them pull their sabre before knocking them off the cliffs... I let them pick up that rocket launcher before running for the compactor activation console and crushing them. I always fought sabre battles for a minute or two before finishing them off with a DFA.

With this new patch, I was hoping that I wouldn't have to DFA to win the match. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to slam absorb up constantly during duels to avoid drainers... In fact, I was hoping for balance.

But something strange has happened... Two days playing the patch, and I, even I suddenly feel cheap and nasty, and dishonourable. It's the backstabs you see. The backstabs can kill in one strike. They cut through blocks and shields like butter... And I can't stop using them. They work well. They do the job, and fast. But tonight, I was on a server and saw one man... who might as well have been me, for I have been doing the same thing... Strong style backstab. Over and over. He was walking around backwards... And I saw him work, and he racked up kills, because yes, he was skilled at using the backstabs... and I thought "how cheap." And then it hit me, that man... was me.

I've never felt cheap before. The same technique, over and over... That's what I have to use to win, because it's the fastest, most effective and most unblockable technique there is. If I were to sabre fight in other ways, I would be spending precious time on one person that I could be spending on grabbing ammo and blasting the rest of the people. And you'd better believe there's another guy on the server that will use that one technique over and over even if you're not willing to use it yourself. And he will win. On sabres only servers, what else can you do? And now on guns servers, with ammo depleted, what else can you use? I run out of ammo, I backstab. I've played for about ten hours since the patch was released, and it's gotten more and more repetitive and less and less interesting. I've suddenly realised that the one word someone used to describe the game post-patch, was absolutely apt. JO is now neutered.

I'm primarily a lightsider. When I realised how cheap the patch had made FFA winning, I played a match as a darksider to see what changes had affected them. I was astonished. Before the patch, a good darksider could challenge me. Now, what use is drain against lightsiders like me? No use at all. It takes a tiny amount of mana away even if I'm slow at activating absorb.

Before the patch, a fast gripper might have had a chance to grab me and throw me over the side of a cliff before I activated absorb. Now, no chance at all. Lightning? I've been killed by lightning a grand total of ten times since the game was released... Even if it were beefed up, what good does it do a darksider against a lightsider? Or against a darksider with a gun?

As for the light side, I don't waste my mana on heal now. It's no use in a duel match at all. It was never very useful in FFA.

And as for team games, at first I thought it might be a minor shift in power... But it seems I was wrong, having played some more matches tonight. CTF for example... Absorb has neutered defenders. An experienced attacker runs in with speed and absorb... he's quite likely to dodge all gunshots, and if he grabs the flag and legs it, who's going to stop him? push won't affect him, it'll merely feed him. Any sabre attacks on the way in or out will be blocked... It's a nightmare.

So let's recap: The patch has reduced me, an experienced duellist and FFAer to using a single, boring technique, over and over again so often, that it EVEN BORES ME.

It's annoyed experienced CTFers because of the neutering of gun-use.

It's made the Dark Side a pale shadow when compared to the sun-like glory of the light side, and I AM a lightsider, so it's hard for me to admit that.

People have always accused me of using the same technique a lot, because I've always done what works, what's necessary to win. But now, I'm starting to agree with them, which is terrifying.

The patch has made winning boring, in my opinion. I didn't think it was possible, but tonight, I'm bored of winning FF FFAs. I'm bored of defeating foes in CTF. I'm bored of duels which end when someone's backstab finally connects.

And I'm tired of running backwards. Maybe I should paint eyes onto Kyle's backside.

What I think should be changed:

The DFA's problem wasn't its power, it was the ability to turn, and the ludicrously long sideways and forward range of the attack. All that needed to be changed was the turning, and the attack range.

Too much blocking means slow sabre fights, so slow that I just give up and shoot the person or shove them over the edge, rather than fighting them. That's not the way things should be, surely? IMO the blocking percentages are way off base. In 1 on 1 duels sure, block all you want, because there's nothing else to do but sabre fight... but in FFA or team games, who wants to stand around slowly nicking away at one person's health?

The backstabs are ludicrously powerful. Another one-hit-kill has replaced the DFA, and one wonders... what was the point?

Drain has been stripped of any power at all. Too far in the right direction, methinks. It's just not a danger to anyone anymore.

Heal... what exactly is the point of this? Three points sunk into one power and what do you get? A single health pack's worth for half your stock of mana. Surely ALL the powers should be desirable and useful, or why have them at all?

Spider's verdict:

1.03 favours Lightsiders like me, disadvantages Darksiders, removes any need to duel with the sabre, (backstab instead) and (So WD_Rage and others say,) makes a mockery of CTF.

It also introduces two fun-filled concepts:

Running backwards while bent forwards so that you can see who's behind you, so that you look utterly and completely ludicrous, and miss all the scenery except the floor textures. Let the buttocks show ye the way forward, young Padawan.

And the second, the concept of utterly useless Force Powers. Heal and Drain now sit in a world of their own as the most completely feeble "powers" ever to possess the name. I hereby dub Heal and Drain "Force Weaknesses" rather than "Force Powers."

Let me finally make clear, I haven't lost a FF FFA, or a FF duel, since I downloaded the patch. This is not a rant born from the frustration of a loser, but instead the frustration of a winner.

I'm off to play 1.02. Yes, I'll have to put up with DFAers and drain-happy madmen, but in my considered opinion, it's preferable.


[FW] Spider AL
--
Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:10 AM   #2
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well I can't speak for the weapons aspect of the game because I'm a saberer, but as for the backsweep, guess what?

when you go back to 1.02, you're gonna see it used alot more now, and it's more effective pre-patch than it is post-patch.

the only reason you didn't see as much before was because so many people realized how easy DFA was and other spams, but now that a whole new crop of players has discovered it again, you can bet you'll be seeing it more and more no matter what version you're using, unless of course, Raven fixes that in a later patch.


the purple one


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Old 05-10-2002, 12:19 AM   #3
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You're right about the proliferation of backsweep Purpl, but I simply cannot stand the nerfing of drain, grip, heal, guns, and the slow, boring sabre fights.

As for the usage of backsweep, at least I'll be able to hit an opponent twice with heavy style and kill them, rather than waiting for their backsweep to connect while I chip mindlessly away at their health, lucky if they do not block me completely inadvertantly.


[FW] Spider AL
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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:24 AM   #4
Ko'or Oragahn
 
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because yes, he was skilled at using the backstabs...
What a skill !... *rolleyes*



I'm French, so excuse me for the lack of vocabulary, thx
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:25 AM   #5
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Thumbs up

Very well written Spider, sums up my thoughts perfectly.
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:27 AM   #6
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Saber fights in 1.03 are rarely slow and boring for me; many of them last no more than 30 seconds. The ones that are longer at least remain interesting because there's rarely a dull moment, as opposed to the constant running around in 1.02.
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:30 AM   #7
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Zek, a fight against someone like me (at least in FF which I frequent) will ALWAYS be short. One hit kill. One hit, and you're dead. I don't want to play like that, I doubt anyone does... But it's the way things are. All the patch has done is decreased Darksiders' defences against my one-hit-kills, and made headless-chicken-style the order of the day.


[FW] Spider AL
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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:30 AM   #8
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Spider....

I totally agree with you... (except for the fact that I'm not a spammer whatsoever )
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:31 AM   #9
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I was hoping that I wouldn't have to DFA to win the match
You dont have to do any such thing. If you do, it simply indicates a lack of skill on your part. That is not a justification for DFA whoring :-
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:34 AM   #10
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Headless-chicken-style is easily counterable though.

Try a nice little saber throw at your opponent, because there's no way they'll block while spinning like that. the light stance lunge and the medium stace special move do a good job at hitting the spinning top without hurting you as well.If you do a triple-chain of heavy attacks at a headless chicken, and keep your aim at them throughout the combo, they'll be dead atthe end of it, because they won't be able to block your moves very well.

Heck, every so often, one of the spins has that really slow bit where they're nearly standing still before bringing their saber back up. that's your cue to run in and hit them with a medium stance slash for 20-30hp.
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:35 AM   #11
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Purplwolf,

I've been trying to make that point for a bazillion threads now.
The backsweep is in v1.02, and it's even more powerful than it is in the new patch.

Your added point that now the community knows about it and will surely spam it worse in v1.02 is a good one. I've been on these forums standing up for the patch, and I'll admit it's overtweaked somethings, but you'll never get me to say the old version was better. In my mind, it simply was not.

Raven has already said they will tweak the backswing. I believe it is in one of the sticky threads up top....unfortunately for the 1.02 reverters it'll mean to get it, you'll have to live with whatever survives from 1.03 to 1.04

Folks listen, Raven does care about what you think, and if you post constructive things, like Spidey has here, you will find them more than willing to listen than if you post "patch sux, oh well v1.02 here I come".
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:43 AM   #12
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You dont have to do any such thing. If you do, it simply indicates a lack of skill on your part.
Oh what a load of rot. The point of a patch was to REMOVE cheap moves, not make a cheap move easier to do, which is the effect it's had! Since Raven have accidentally left the move in there, people will use it! Since I wish to win, I must match move-for-move, those players who rival me on FFA servers, thus I must use cheap moves in order to win. The fact that normal sabre swings do less damage now only makes it MORE likely that a player will resort to a 1 hit kill.

Quote:
Headless-chicken-style is easily counterable though.
DFA was easily counterable, but that doesn't mean it should have been left as it was, eh?


[FW] Spider AL
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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:48 AM   #13
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Originally posted by PurplWulf
well I can't speak for the weapons aspect of the game because I'm a saberer, but as for the backsweep, guess what?

when you go back to 1.02, you're gonna see it used alot more now
Well, let's go back to reality and fact. I run a 1.02 saber only server, and guess what? People in fact do NOT run around backwards trying to backstab others. In fact, I have seen zero increase in backstabs since before the patch was released.
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:49 AM   #14
Aiee
 
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I challenge you to find a single post by me pre-patch that mentions takng out DFA. ;]

I like the changes to DFA post-patch, because it makes SENSE that someone shouldn't be able to rotate in the air, just like they can't rotate in the light lunge. And it makes SENSE that someone poking your toe with the top of their lightsaber from underground won't kill you instantly.

Headless chickens are in there for now. I am not Raven. I cannot give you a patch that removes them. I merely present you with the methods I've found to combat them so far, in the hope that you will find them as effective as I have, and that you will find the game more enjoyable overall once you've mastered the changes put forth in the patch.

My motives, as always, remain entirely transparent.
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:50 AM   #15
Spider AL
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Geronimo's information proves one of my points to an extent, that the number of heavy-damaging moves that DIDN'T involve running around waving your buttocks in front of you, meant that backstab moves were undesirable.

(edit)

Quote:
I challenge you to find a single post by me pre-patch that mentions takng out DFA
My comments that DFA should indeed have been nerfed has nothing to do with you personally Aiee, I fail to see why you are taking it as such.

Quote:
it makes SENSE that someone shouldn't be able to rotate in the air, just like they can't rotate in the light lunge. And it makes SENSE that someone poking your toe with the top of their lightsaber from underground won't kill you instantly.
And it makes sense that all the force powers have a use, otherwise why are they there at all? Drain and heal are now of no use. They might as well have been removed.

Quote:
I merely present you with the methods I've found to combat them so far, in the hope that you will find them as effective as I have, and that you will find the game more enjoyable overall once you've mastered the changes put forth in the patch.
Well that's very patronising of you, and it presupposes that I have any problem at all winning with the patch. I have no such problem, quite the reverse, as I've made some of my very best times for making over a hundred kills, since the patch was released! Haha, no, to use common parlance I "own" with the patch. The fact that I'm still winning has nothing to do with my concerns however. The patch has imbalanced the game ludicrously, while trying to balance it. I do not wish to win by using exclusively cheap kills, and I wish that they be removed so that I might not be forced to use them, as I currently am.

Quote:
I am not Raven. I cannot give you a patch that removes them.
Once again you seem to be taking this as a personal request to you, from me, that you aid me in removing such cheapness. Rest assured I do not require your assistance in such a venture, nor should you trouble yourself further in this manner, as your involvement has no relevence to me personally, in this current debate.

(/edit)


[FW] Spider AL
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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.

Last edited by Spider AL; 05-10-2002 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:06 AM   #16
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I myself never really used DFA. I did decently well, I wasn't the best but I had a lot of fun. I prided myself on dodging and evading then strategically planning a heavy sideswipe. Unfortunately, the fun has been taken away because of things Spidey has already gone to great lengths to explain.

Just today I tried the backstab, I had never done it before. This move is sick. I got 40 on a server when the next closest person was 20. I am NOT a very skilled player. That is looney. I will admit that it was fun, if very unfair.

If I were to ask for changes...

Keep the DFA nerfed, that was wise.

Keep heal and drain nerfed. (People think this is silly but I'm thinking FFA balance here. This, IMHO is why everyone said heavy was cheap. In FFA with heal and drain it was almost impossible for anyone but an INCREDIBLY skilled player to get a kill with anything but heavy because of the fact that if someone with heal/drain was hit by light or medium, they immediately hit heal. Back to 100. The only solution was a heavy hit. Keeping this nerfed would give more validity to medium and light, particurally light.)

Keep light stance buffed, that was a good change to make a lacking stance better.

Get rid of the blocking, it prolongs fights, which is fine for duels, but just takes away a lot of the fast paced fun of FFA and CTF. Similar CTF problems to what others have said. There are plenty of other reasons for that too.

Revert heavy and medium. They were FINE. Medium was perfectly balanced, heavy was just right (it was easy to dodge and took skill to do effectively, so no screams please) outside of DFA.


I know many, many people will call me a whiner and say these changes would screw the patch they love. I'm merely stating what I would love to see happen.

And of course, NERF BACKSTAB!
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:13 AM   #17
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So what you are saying is that you have NO self control and your desire to WIN outweighs EVERYTHING else in this game.

"Yeah..its a shame what backstab can do...but I must use it because everyone else is...oh wait...now the game sucks"

Simple solution DON'T USE THE FRIGGIN MOVES!!!!. If you are so compelled to be the victor than USE THE FRIGGIN MOVES and shut up.

Your entire complaint is MOOT!
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:16 AM   #18
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This is not a personal flame, Googly, but I feel you missed his point.

What he is saying is that he just wants to have fun. Between the new patch causing fights to take forever (among other things) and many other players doing it, it is the only way for him to have fun. I can really relate to that because I very much enjoyed the faster paced combat of pre-patch. (That is how I interpert it)
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:19 AM   #19
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(edit) No, why bother responding to Googly. (/edit)

My point stands.


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Old 05-10-2002, 01:21 AM   #20
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Question Does anyone agree?

I have played a lot with the patch and I love it's depth and detail. The saber battles are indeed a lot more complex and require better timing. But I still think some things should be changed for the sake of balance/playability.

I won't be discussing force or guns because I don't think these things have been nerfed badly at all. I still find grip/drain/heal to be very usefull. The alt-fire guns just need more accuracy now... if you run out of ammo, you always still have the force/saber so that should do you good untill you get more ammo, I think.

1. Clashing during attack animations should either be delayed or toned down a bit. Right now the sabers clash very frequently during attack animations. Reducing it a bit would allow the battles to speed up a bit which I think would improve playability (fast = fun, ususally).

2. Bocking frequency is fine now, you feel a lot safer trying to block incoming hits. In 1.02 I thought blocking was a bit tame... Sometimes hits seemed to just break through for no apparent reason. However, if the radius was turned down to about 30 degrees, then I think there would be a lot more satisfaction in blocking. I tested today to see what radius you could block things in... I found that you can block things attacking 90 degrees to either side of you... a bit overdone. I'm really not pulling your leg here, try it, it works. In addition, on rare occasions, players seem to block things behind them. Thus, toning down the radius would make it more convincing and still far from usesless.

3. Up the damage on all attacks apart from backstab. I think people could stand to die a little quicker than they do now. Not that you would, you could play very carefully and not get hit, of course. It would make the fights seem more "lethal" in my opinion. I think it should never take more than 4-6 clean hits to kill someone. With the current blocking system, good players would still beable to survive for a long time, yet they have the potential to end it very quickly. As for backstab, I personally don't think it is such a big problem... however I have seen people do this and I don't think it should be encouraged. Make it less effective than attacking stuff in front of you, but not by much.

I suggested this stuff earlier for the next patch.
In addition to people saying Absorb is overpowered: How so? Absorb doesn't help you rack in kills, it merely defends you. It won't do you any good against someone with a gun/saber. As for drain being nerfed, good. Now people wil use it to get in that needed health instead of just draining like crazy. Heal is also fine the way it is, IMO. If you need to heal more, then just start playing defensively. And I don't see how grip is nerfed. On thin walkways you can still be flung off in no time whatsoever if you aren't carefull.
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:23 AM   #21
Spider AL
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In addition to people saying Absorb is overpowered: How so?
Just with regards to that, I think Absorb appears overpowered to some because it is so much more powerful than the dark side counterpart powers now. Drain and grip having been nerfed and all.


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Old 05-10-2002, 01:26 AM   #22
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LOL..I just find it EXTREMELY ironic that he admits to be a cheap-kill-whore...

POINT BEING:

It's the PLAY STYLE like his that caused SO MANY people to bitch and moan until the game was patched...LOL...don't you see?

Spider has no one to blame but himself. Poor lad.

Next!
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:27 AM   #23
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i agree with spidy

CONS:

they removed all the medium stance moves

the backstab is to powerfull

less damage, it takes to long to kill someone (boring)

very limited hit indication

the hit range seems a bit too extended in every stance (unrealistic)

allows saber throw (as an option) in no force duel



PROS:

no more death from above spam

nice force adjustments

fixed some minor interface issues on the multi screen select

the ingame chat pop up box is cool (although it is over used)


the patch was a step in the right direction but all they had to do to the saber system was take out the dfa spam
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:31 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cow_JK:O
This is not a personal flame, Googly, but I feel you missed his point.

What he is saying is that he just wants to have fun. Between the new patch causing fights to take forever (among other things) and many other players doing it, it is the only way for him to have fun. I can really relate to that because I very much enjoyed the faster paced combat of pre-patch. (That is how I interpert it)
No offense taken.

Mob Rules.

Sure Spider wants to have fun, but he never considered how he may be ruining other peoples fun. His point of view is entirely selfish. I'm sorry the new patch took away his "fun"...but in the long run many more people can now have fun because their goal IS to have fun and not win at ANY expense.

See my above post about the irony as well.

As far as I'm concerned one less player like him is a good thing.
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:32 AM   #25
Spider AL
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LOL..I just find it EXTREMELY ironic
Another one who doesn't understand the meaning of the word "irony." Seek a dictionary, not an Alanis Morissette song.

Quote:
It's the PLAY STYLE like his that caused SO MANY people to bitch and moan until the game was patched...LOL...don't you see?
Ahh so you're admitting that the patch has had a negative effect on the game,.. but you're accusing me of having a hand in it?

How very odd you are. Also you USE CAPS FAER TEO MECH!!!11



(edit)

Quote:
Sure Spider wants to have fun, but he never considered how he may be ruining other peoples fun. His point of view is entirely selfish.
Classic whining fare. How does my winning deprive you of your fun? I don't interrupt sabre duels, I don't crow over the fallen when I've defeated them... unless they do it to me first, of course. No, you and your kind whine about "not having any fun" because you lose, and can't explain it in any other way than "YUO R CHEEP!!11"

Quote:
I'm sorry the new patch took away his "fun"...but in the long run many more people can now have fun because their goal IS to have fun and not win at ANY expense.
And of course, you've proven my point here. Because, why would I be posting in this way, unless I didn't want to win at any expense. If I just wanted to win at any cost, I wouldn't care that I'm being forced to join in the cheap technique usage in order to secure victory. QED.

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned one less player like him is a good thing.
I think you've gotten the wrong end of the stick here. I'm not going to stop playing. I'm not even going to stop playing 1.03. No, what I'm going to do is constructively lobby for the changes I wish in 1.04. And by god, I'll give it my best shot. Ithankyou.

(/edit)


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:48 AM   #26
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This'll be my last post... my use of the word ironic was spot on in this situation.

I have nothing against you Spider..I don't want this to degenerate into a cat fight. You are entitled to your opinion and play style...but can't you see how your actions (pre 1.03) directly affected what got changed in the patch?. Now you sit here and complain.

i·ro·ny Pronunciation Key (r-n, r-)

Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain).

"Googly noted the irony of Spiders complaints about the game changes he himself caused to come about."
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Old 05-10-2002, 02:11 AM   #27
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This'll be my last post...
Good, you added nothing but ignorance to the thread. Begone.

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I have nothing against you Spider..
Could have fooled me... or do you always tell complete strangers to "shut up?" You insulting "person."

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I don't want this to degenerate into a cat fight.
You scratched my face, I'll scratch yours. Meow.

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but can't you see how your actions (pre 1.03) directly affected what got changed in the patch?. Now you sit here and complain.
Frankly no, your idea that people who won a lot affected the finished version of the patch is nonsensical. Those who WHINED affected this patch. The fact that people (like yourself) whine when I defeat them, is their fault, their problem and their character flaw. Whiners like yourself, are the people who are totally, and completely, to blame for the terrible monotony of version 1.03 of JO, in my opinion.

Quote:
"Googly noted the irony of Spiders complaints about the game changes he himself caused to come about."
Wow Googly, you really are damn good at this irony thing. I think you should be given an honorary doctorate in ironical studies.



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Old 05-10-2002, 02:37 AM   #28
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For some reason I feel this post will make me look bit stupid, none the less...

Spider Al, you can write, you're good player and most of all you seem smart. Now Raven is going to put another patch which will with no doubt tweak things again. It will probably kill the cheapness backsweep is right now and more. How ever I doubt they'll think of everything. That's the power we have, as there are only so many ppl working at Raven. Of course they'll have had lots of feedback from players and they've probably read some of the posts here at forums (but probably not all of them, there are just too many). How ever this is where you come in. Most people who write emails to Raven do it with good intention, but you know how to write well (if my english skills are worth anything ) so have you considered to write your own email to them?

What I fear is that Raven will make the changes too linear, they nerfed healing by making it less effective. Now with ppl saying it's not worth using anymore they may up the effect a bit, but do you think that will solve anything? Because what somebody said about healing in FFA fights was true, anything but red was rather useless (especially if you wanted to rack kills fast, which you I believe, want to do). So instead of just changing a numeric value (how much healing it does) why not forcing heal user to walk while healing, and remove the insta effect it now has. Make it heal gradually but still fast enough to be usefull. (No I didn't think about this overly much, so yes the above probably sucked in game, it's just an example )

Now the point of my post is not to lick thy arse, and much of what I say comes out rather cumbersomely (is that a word?) because I'm not native english speaker. What I'm suggesting is that why don't ppl like you (Spider Al), and few others on these forums who have actually written something intelligent compared to what most posters ramble, get together on an IRC channel or something (or on these forums), and put your heads together to think of good solutions for all the problems you see. And also to think what Raven (or even your selves) might not see at the first glance (like the backsweep problem we now have).

Then write a long and well articulated email to Raven. And no, I don't believe they'd just go "ooh, how wise these ppl are, let us just do what they say", but you might notice things they don't, and cause some more ideas to flow around at their end. No matter how professional game designers they are, they wont notice everything.

Just a thought.
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Old 05-10-2002, 02:40 AM   #29
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well, Spidey old pal, i have to admit something here... you do abuse certain moves and combos for the sake of winning above all else... it's the corruption of tournament living, my friend. before the patch, you used DFA but complained about it being overused. now you do and say the same about the backswing. you've known me for years, and i've always had the same attitude... i'd rather enjoy losing an honset round than depise winning a cheap one. i understand your reasoning behind the need to match your opponents' moves, which regretably means matching cheap moves as well, in order to score... but if you think about it... what good are points which are only counted by yourself? my suggestion to anyone who has complaints about the game or patch as far as balance in strengths and weaknesses is to just relax, calm down, and play the game the way you'd like to play the game... if that means you do your best to piss everyone off, then you'll get voted out... if you do your best to play a good clean game, then win or lose you're bound to be shown some respect... but if all you want to do is rack up as many points as you can, then why not just wait for a tourney when the points actually count for something besides ego? a game is a game, and nothing more... it should be played as such... competition leads to the dark side, Spidey, but you already knew this.
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Old 05-10-2002, 02:46 AM   #30
Spider AL
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*Spider AL squashes Anty*

Cheers Etz, I'll certainly write such an e-mail, but furthermore I'll organise as many people as I can to aid me in the cause. One voice alone in the wilderness, In space no-one can hear you scream etc. Ahem.


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 05-10-2002, 02:58 AM   #31
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I'm all for listing what we think should be changed. I'll help you out if I can. I owe you for that last duel you played me at. Remember me? I had half your frags without any spamming. You said you were going, I challenged you to one last duel... and I beat you! I'm sure luck won't favor me next time .
I'm not quite clear as to what you think should be changed though. You indicated what is wrong quite clearly, but how do you suggest it should be fixed in the next patch? I presume you realise that saying we should go back to 1.02 combat will probably never happen, in case that might be what you want.
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Old 05-10-2002, 03:24 AM   #32
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I doubt going back to 1.02 is possible (or even recommended) either.

One thing that bugs me is 'special moves'. I mean what the heck are these things? Perhaps they just named them poorly becaus the word that pops to my mind is 'manouver'. And why on earth does a backstab do more damage and goes through blocks more easily than a normal attack? Alright perhaps it's a "surprise" attack so the defender might not expect it and thus the higher probability of actually connecting with the hit. But if it turns the game into a backsweep / backstab rollercoaster... that's a game I'm not going to get into.

Another thing is Duel vs. FFA / CTF, these are two (possibly three) entire different kind of beasts when you consider game design. Even in real life (and this *is* a subject I know somethign about) rules of engagement for duels and mass battles were entirely different. 1.03 is great with duels, although no force duels would probably be better with out the throw ability as there aren't any real ways to counter it, except to throw your own saber.

How ever in FFA games I find that people are usually fighting in a big ball as almost every level has this one large open space which attracts people (rightly so, I can't understand what Raven were thinking of when they made that Raven labs level). I'm not claiming to be a great player but usually I most points I gather in such game are due wading in, swinging around wildly and usually hitting opponent who is already nearly dead due to someone else hitting him first. Trying to pursuit a specific enemy in FFA seems to be hopeless because there's so much health / shields around that with the blocking going on it's very easy to reatreat. Especially on servers with more ppl somebody else will usually kill your opponent from behind when you're chasing / fighting him.

Oh, and btw. I'm not playing to win so usually I don't use guns or any special moves except accidental backsweeps and occasional light / medium / heavy 'special move' when the oppoturnity calls for it.
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:25 PM   #33
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Remember me?
Err... Were you under this name in-game? doesn't ring a bell I'm afraid...

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You indicated what is wrong quite clearly, but how do you suggest it should be fixed in the next patch?
I'm glad you asked! Firstly the backstabs should indeed be lowered in damage, in my opinion. It would be hard to make them less desirable by other means, such as making the backstabber more prone to attack.

Secondly the two new "Force Weaknesses," Drain and Heal. I believe that Drain was disempowered too far in the right direction, so a small decrease from the original power would be enough of a change from 1.02. Heal on the other hand was likewise too far disempowered. Instead of nerfing the amount you heal, I believe Raven should restore the amounts in 1.04, and instead make the healing occur over time, and also include the "meditative stance" of Heal lv. 1 in Single player, as it would be an excellent deterrent for heal-happy-madmen to have to sit still with their sabre off for several seconds while healing.

Thirdly Absorb, as a lightsider it's tough for me to say this, but *gulp* I think the noise it makes should be audible over a wider radius, so that Darksiders at least have a chance to know there's an absorber appearing somewhere nearby.

Fourthly if grip-users are to be slowed to a walk, the damage the grip does should be increased. But really, I think a reversion is in order for this one, I don't understand why they slowed grippers down at all. It was never very powerful in the first place...

Fifth, blocking. The blocking radius is so wide that in FFA one simply has no incentive to waste time sabre fighting with someone in FFA when you could be backing into a group while backstabbing. To avoid cheapness, the allure of the cheap tactics must be removed, so I would therefore prefer that blocking be reverted to 1.02 methods in FFA, CTF, CTY and Team FFA, and I will be lobbying for precisely that.

There we have it, anyhoo.

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Trying to pursuit a specific enemy in FFA seems to be hopeless because there's so much health / shields around that with the blocking going on it's very easy to reatreat. Especially on servers with more ppl somebody else will usually kill your opponent from behind when you're chasing / fighting him.
In a post full of excellent points, this is perhaps the best. The pace of FFA is, and should be fast. Since the only fast moves are now cheap moves, we'll be seeing a lot of them. The answer is not just to nerf the fastest moves, as this would slow the game to a positive crawl, where even if your sabre runs true at an opponent, they'll block it, and get killed by someone else from behind. 1.02 definitely had superior FFA, and I'll be lobbying for the restoration of the fast and furious feeling.


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:35 PM   #34
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I think we need to keep this thread going as there has been lot of usefull discussion going on here. Below is what I replied to another thread, I decided to add it here because I'd like to know what Spider Al has to say about it. Most of it is not going to happen but let's see what we can think up.

I'm going to add my stick to the pile

Lightsabers by their very definition are lethal weapons, if you get cut with one, something will most likely drop off. I can see the reasoning behind light, medium and heavy stances, but lets face it. Having to slash someone multiple times with a weapon that can cut through steel isn't exactly realistic, but then games rarely are.

Somebody (quite few somebodies actually) mentioned that the arch with blocking should be smaller, I whole heartetly agree. Should Raven change this it would be very good indeed. Also although I mentioned above that lightsaber damage isn't very realistic at the moment I also understand that one shot kills aren't that fun either. How ever I think that you should be able to kill a person with 3-4 hits max. Now with shields added it can really take forever to bring a guy down. I don't remember seeing any personal shields in the movies, do you? Originally in Darkforces shields were simply a cool way of replacing armor that was used in games like Doom at that time. How ever now I feel it's more like a relic from that past age where three dimensional enviroments were only dreamt of and if I could make the choice, I would take them off alltogether.

Now most of you will probably flame me for saying that, and of course it will never happen so save your breath. But think about it, that would change the game quite a bit and although guns might be overpowered the lightsaber combat in FFA games and similar would become a lot more interesting. More tweaking in stance damages and blocking would be needed of course to balance things out.

Perhaps it would be better if actual armor rating would replace shields. It would work out exactly as now, except that lightsabers would pass it by as falling damage and kicking does now. People have said that double clicking jump makes kicking harder, it does. But it's not funny to see somebody to use only kicks. And why not? When you kick you'll by pass all defenses and shields. Five hits and the person is dead unless he gets medkit or has heal. Kicking is almost more effective than using your saber because while you kick you can still use block (except when you're upside down in the air). Using armor instead of shields would have the additional benefit to make kick more of a tool than a weapon. You could still kick someone over but armor would take the worst damage off.

That's the kind of stuff I would like to see implemented. And maybe I will, with the ability to create mods perhaps enough people would like to see that happen to make it possible. Do you?


There, I guess I could have posted link directly to the thread, but you've probably already read it.
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:57 PM   #35
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Somebody (quite few somebodies actually) mentioned that the arch with blocking should be smaller, I whole heartetly agree. Should Raven change this it would be very good indeed. Also although I mentioned above that lightsaber damage isn't very realistic at the moment I also understand that one shot kills aren't that fun either. How ever I think that you should be able to kill a person with 3-4 hits max.
These are all very good points. Blocking is... Well, it's slowed FFA down. Right down. And to win intentionally, it's almost a given that you'll have to use the backswing.

I never really saw the point of the fast stance as it was pre-patch, the damage it did was abysmal. Now, I don't have a problem with it, but because of blocking, I can swing at someone with heavy stance (and hit them, in the side) and they'll somehow block it, and rail off a bunch of light stance spins at me. Of course I avoid them, but the blocking kinda ruins the Strong stance's normal strikes. So now that the Strong stance is redundant, one is forced to use the backswing, which is universally accepted as being cheap.

Note, NF duels are fine with this patch IMO, I don't have a problem with duels at all. I'm talking about FFA here.

The armour idea is an interesting one, workable, but I'd have to give it some thought before commenting... Shield belts have been a part of the DF series from day one...


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:18 PM   #36
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Yeah shield belts have always been the trademark of the series among other things. In the original Dark Forces it just didn't matter as no one used lightsabers. Basically it was the same thing as armors in other games, just with a different name. They sticked with it in Dark Forces II and now it's here.

As for how to implement a personal forcefield? I'd rather see it as bonus item that for a given time (30 sec as other items I'd guess, until the battery runs out ) would either absorb percentile amount of damage from energy weapons or make the user immune to them complitely.

This would add a twist in FFA and CTF, you would actually have to use another weapon or use force to kill or avoid the person with the shield belt. I honestly believe that the armor idea would work better than the current one. But even if Raven would miracolously come to the same conclusion they would never change it, it's too late for that. Besides it's only my opinion and that doesn't really make it true. We'd would need to make a mod just to test it. That might be easy though, just make lightsabers to ignore shields for starters and see how that would affect the game. Probably very simple to implement.

As for heavy stance being ruined, I'm not the best person to talk about that as I rarely use it except as a bait to get the other person attack me. The way I see it you really need skill to use red stance now. First hit is almost always blocked, but the person you hit is also staggered for a second or two so with 2 and 3 hit combos you should be able to land some solid hits as well. Of course with the target moving around this would be no easy job.
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Old 05-10-2002, 02:02 PM   #37
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As for heavy stance being ruined, I'm not the best person to talk about that as I rarely use it except as a bait to get the other person attack me.
Absolutely, an excellent tactic... however, in FFA nobody has time to bait other people, it's all a big mishmosh. Someone comes in and backswings, end of game. This is unacceptable, and without the backswing, it would all just slow down. I'll be lobbying for removal of the new parries/knockaways in a toggleable 1.021/1.03 version style arrangement in the next patch.


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Old 05-10-2002, 02:17 PM   #38
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Originally posted by Spider AL

I never really saw the point of the fast stance as it was pre-patch, the damage it did was abysmal. Now, I don't have a problem with it, but because of blocking, I can swing at someone with heavy stance (and hit them, in the side) and they'll somehow block it, and rail off a bunch of light stance spins at me. Of course I avoid them, but the blocking kinda ruins the Strong stance's normal strikes. So now that the Strong stance is redundant, one is forced to use the backswing, which is universally accepted as being cheap.
I beg to differ. Strong style did receive an upgrade in the form of chainable attacks. While it takes a little more timing, it is very easy to chain up to 3 attacks after one another, and the two that follow the first execute at about the same speed as a medium style slash. Furthermore, the red stance attacks do an excellent job of shattering defenses, leaving players open for a while after the initial slash for your two follow-ups. A well-timed 3-hit combo can, in fact, kill a player who is at full health.

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Somebody (quite few somebodies actually) mentioned that the arch with blocking should be smaller, I whole heartetly agree. Should Raven change this it would be very good indeed. Also although I mentioned above that lightsaber damage isn't very realistic at the moment I also understand that one shot kills aren't that fun either. How ever I think that you should be able to kill a person with 3-4 hits max.
An alternative, which I also mentioned in another thread would be to keep the arc of blocking the same (roughly +/- 90 degrees from center, allowing players to block attacks from the side), but instead reward players for their accuracy in blocking. that is, make the percentage of attacks blocked inversely proportional to the angle they hit relative to the center of the player. that is to say, if someone attacked a player and their saber hit right in front of the player (at a 0 degree angle from center), 100% of their slashes would be blocked, unless the attacked player had left an opening, either by having his/her saber deflected, or by being in the middle of executing an attack. If someone attacks a player, and their saber hits them at an angle of say, 45 degrees, 55% of all attacks would be blocked. this would be halfway between right in front of a player and directly to the side, and a skilled swordsman (which a Jedi would have to be to use a lightsaber in the first place) could reasonably parry or block a large amount of attacks, even at this angle. If a player is hit directly on his/her side, only 10% of all attacks would be blocked (IE: almost none), reflecting that any blocks here would be due to sheer luck. While this may sound like a lot of blocking, and a very forgiving system initially, it is important to remember that nearly no saber attacks hit dead on center as it is, and I beleive that on a player who doesn't keep turning to face his player, roughly 1/3rd of all attacks would connect. At this rate, a few light swings to soften up, followed by a medium and a heavy would bring most players down. However, a skilled player could technically keep blocking indefinately.

Another thing that would be nice to see is blocking related to a players movement. I would suggest that in additional to said radius-related blocking, the players movement at the moment of attack would have an effect on the chance to block. If we say a player has 100% chance of blocking (I'm assuming a head-on attack here) while standing still, movement penalties could be induced that would reduce this to 90% if he was walking forwards or diagonally forwards. 85% if he was walking sideways or backwards, 80% if he was running forwards or diagonally forwards, 75% if he was running sideways (strafing) and 70% if he was running backwards. The logic behind this being that a person running sideways or backwards will need to concentrate on the placement of his/her legs, and some of the concentration needed to maintain an effective defense would be transferred to the legs. The lowered defense rating when moving backwards, along with the lowered defense when hit on the side or back would help discourage players from running backwards when fighting. Similairely, the lowered defense when running would perhaps encourage people to switch to walking in confined areas to increase their chance of blocking, adding another layer of thought to the current fighting model.

If the above is too complex, another way to discourage people running around backwards would be to bring in a feature from another game, the Baldur's Gate series: The backstab multiplier. The concept is remarkably simple, in the Baldurs Gate series, if you manage to sneak up on someone (using the hide in shadows feature) and attack their exposed back area, your attack will do vastly more damage. If a swift strike to the back in medium stance suddenly does double or triple damage, I'm sure you'll see far less people willing to risk running around backwards.

Regarding heal and drain, I would suggest that drain would be slowed down. Slowed down in the way that it would take less mana to use, but it would also sap the opponents mana and regenerate health at a slower rate. Also, if a player uses absorb, being drained would add mana to their force meter at a slower rate.

For heal, I would suggest that heal at level 3 would still take 50% of your force meter, but also heal 50hp. the catch being that rather than healing a player instantly, the health would regenerate over a short period of time, similairely to single-player. During this time, a player would have to stand completely still. If a player begins to run, healing would be interrupted, and the excess mana would be wasted. This would encourage players to heal between fights, rather than run around and hit heal repeatedly.

I do not use grip myself, by my impression of it is that it was fine in 1.02. I have force push bound to mouse3, and people rarely manage to cause much damage before I push them away. Why it was reduced in power is beyond me.

I like absorb as it is now. Personally, I don't beleive it should make any sound or have any visual effect while inactive, but instead make a loud sound and flash as soon as it absorbs anything. This worked fine in the original Jedi Knight (absorb had a very distinctive sound), and anyone with but a little sense in their heads would stop gripping/draining/lightening (I know that's not a word, but bear with me) as soon as they see it. To balance it out, my suggestion is to make drain sap less mana for attacks that cannot be aoirted, such as push and pull.

Regarding the weapons, the ammo costs were increased because of people spamming the alt repeater and flechette randomly, hoping to score a few quick kills. the problem the increased ammo consumption created was that there isn't enough ammo to go around anymore. My suggestion for solving this problem would be to increase the amount of ammo gained from an ammonition pickup. This would leave ammo for everyone to use, but still penalize people who wish to spam the alt fire. Someone with a halfway decent aim would still get 12 alt shots with the repeater rifle at full ammo (which would be easier to get if ammonition in pickups was increased), which should be enough to stop a retreating flag carrier.

Finally, while this has been suggested before, I would like to add some further weight to the argument of reducing the speed of running backwards. In CTF, part of the argument of needing to use secondary fire is that a backpedalling carrier in light stance with absorb can deflect everything else back at the pursuers. If you reduce the speed at which a player runs backwards, a flagrunner will be forced to either:
A) running backwards (you could add a further penalty to force speed when running backwards, but that's just a random thought-fart) and having the chasers catching up with him and using their sabers or primary-fire flechette at a range where he can't push.
Or B) Running forwards at full speed, leaving his back exposed to primry fire shots from the repeater, crossbow or pretty much any other weapon. In this case, of course, he will have to rely on his skill at dodging, as well as covering fire from his teammates to survive.
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Old 05-10-2002, 02:52 PM   #39
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I beg to differ. Strong style did receive an upgrade
Any upgrade it may or may not have received is vastly outweighed by its inferiority to mindless spinning in a group, and/or strong backswing in a group. Pre-patch you could hit someone twice with the strong style normally, and kill them. This meant that you had options to kill people quickly other than shoving them down and backswinging them. All the speed and pace of FFA is gone, unless one behaves cheaply. No fun at all.

Quote:
Another thing that would be nice to see is blocking related to a players movement. I would suggest that in additional to said radius-related blocking, the players movement at the moment of attack would have an effect on the
etc. etc. In my opinion it was overly contrived thinking like this that has left FFA and CTF players in the position they're in right now. Pre-patch, if you got hit, you got hit. It was your fault for not dodging. Now, even if someone's skilled enough to hit you, you may block it. That does not reward skill, it rewards a lack of skill.

And before anyone says it no, I have no problem winning sabre duels post-patch, and I don't even have to use the backswing. The point stands, that automatic blocking of this radius and type is merely a shield that those who cannot dodge, fall back on.

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I do not use grip myself, by my impression of it is that it was fine in 1.02. I have force push bound to mouse3, and people rarely manage to cause much damage before I push them away. Why it was reduced in power is beyond me.
Absolutely true and apt, I too have no idea why they nerfed grip to this extent. Now, darksiders have no weapons with which to fight me. This is saddening, as all the challenge of defeating darksiders is now gone.

I also agree that running backwards should mean a further reduction in speed.


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 05-10-2002, 03:20 PM   #40
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And before anyone says it no, I have no problem winning sabre duels post-patch, and I don't even have to use the backswing. The point stands, that automatic blocking of this radius and type is merely a shield that those who cannot dodge, fall back on.
While you have a valid point in that, I would like to point out that some of us do not like the idea of constantly hitting roll. I come from a background of playing JK2 where you did, in fact, move out of the way rather than block. What I found there, and in pre-patch JKO was that most of the time, opponents were running around, fighting a fight where there were constantly a gap of 10-20 feet or more between them. In my opinion, sabers are melee weapons. Melee weapons are weapons in which you have to get in close to a player to do damage. So it makes sense that to damage a player, you would have to be close to them for an extended period of time, which is what blocking requires of you. You'll find that if you do a diagonal swing at an opponent, your saber will often hit them in a 30-45 degree angle. If they were running around at the time of the collision, the system I suggested would leave them with roughly a 50% chance of blocking an attack - a vast reduction of the current rate of 80-85%.

What I am trying to say is that some people - me included - like the idea of more blocks, deflections and parrys. They make duelling - a game mode which previously consisted of running away from your opponent 80% of the time so you would't be struck by the tip of a saber you couldn't block with your own, even if you saw it coming a mile away. I understand that the changes have made FFA slower (although I find the idea that a player should be expected to dodge all attacks made from 4 or 5 opponents mplaced all around them a little silly), so I suggested a way that would hopefully allow us to experience the best of both camps. In FFA, you will be assaulted from all sides, and while the arc percentage and movement percentages may help you block attacks from one specific opponent, they will be far less efficient in fights against two or more, hopefully restoring some of the quick kills FFA players prefer.

1.02 was well-liked by CTF-players and FFA-players to a large extent, but many duellists complained because many of the moves that gave speed to CTF and FFA were being abused and made duelling less fun. 1.03 has changed many of these, offering a very good feel to dueling, at the expense of those who like to play FFA and CTF. What I'm trying to do is suggest changes that will please all 3 camps; Duellists, FFA and CTF players alike. Thus, making changes that increase the longevity of battles only if you focus your efforts on a single player seems to be the logical solution.

If you have any suggestions that will restore the pace to FFA and CTF, while still allowing me to have a good, long duel with an opponent where I use timing, blocks and deflections to trick my opponent into leaving himself open so I can move in for a finishing kill, I would love to hear them. Just please bear in mind that for every player who desires an intense 30 seconds where he through a few rolls and a well-timed sweep slays 3 opponents, there's another person whi likes 2 minutes of staying close to his opponent, trying to get an opening, and both players opinions are equally important - they paid the same for the game after all.
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