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Old 05-12-2002, 07:14 PM   #81
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it just makes more sense to have a standard set of gameplay rules for every server.
Ah but we've already established that the ruleset of 1.03, which caters middling well for Duellists, is a terrible ruleset for FFAers and CTFers. Absolutely awful, IMO. No pace, no fluidity, and very little use for the sabre other than to backswing people.

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it would discourage all around players
Speaking as an all-round player, it would encourage me quite a bit. I simply don't bother playing CTF now. It's boring. FFA is boring too, but I resolutely refuse to stop playing it, due to the commitment I've made to it as a game style. Only duelling still contains that buzz, that essence of tension that 1.02 contained. Really, 1.03 has restricted me, a dedicated all-rounder, to two modes, and one of them is boring anyway. Any alteration that restores the pace of FFA and CTF without removing the style duellists like so much is A-okay with me.

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it discourages game growth. It'd be annoying enough for the experienced player but imagine how long a new player would stick around if the gameplay seemingly changed every single time they changed to a server duel server from an ffa server or ctf server.
CS and TFC are two of the more notably popular game mods in recent years. In those, the rulesets not only changed from level to level, but from patch to patch, and from character class to character class. I don't think that discouraged players at all...

Frankly, I believe that this patch has not only crippled the pace of FFA, and imbalanced CTF incredibly, but it's also taken the game further away from competitive success. I can't imagine that any large leagues will offer any sort of desirable prizes for CTFers or FFAers in the game's current state.

On the plus side we've got new maps, good bugfixes and some more options... but the problems shouldn't be ignored by anyone. The only way the game will become a success in all areas is if Raven addresses the needs of the community who play the game, and at the moment, CTFers and FFAers are in the muck up to their elbows. A change is needed in the next patch, that much is certain.


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Old 05-12-2002, 08:07 PM   #82
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We'll, aside from all other changes involved, I still think you've only got to do one thing to reinclude CTF and FFA into the current ruleset.

Just make the sabers a 1 hit kill against gunners and un-nerf the guns. Personally, I'd like to see the guns made MORE useful.

Another thing that could be implemented and would change the balance quite a bit would be area effect damage with shields. Right now area effect doesn't seem to come into play until after you've broken down your opponents shields entirely.

As for the grapple changing the gameplay dynamic, it'd definitely do that. I think it would add to instead of detract from however. Possibly limiting the # of shots you have with a grapple to 2-3, and making it an item pick up would force you to save it for times when yer thrown off a ledge. Making it ranged as well, would limit its use to times when you find yourself looking down at a bottomless pit.

On top of that, implementing a method of cutting the line thats suspending the person that's using the grapple would still make it fairly easy to follow up and kill folks trying to save themselves, however it would give them another option other than simply self killing.

At the moment, I have a key bound to self kill when i get knocked into a drop in CTF, mostly so whoever knocked me off doesn't get any points if I have the flag and so I can spawn faster. I know a lot of other CTF'rs have similar binds. I'd love to have a grapple to rebind that key to.


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Old 05-12-2002, 08:58 PM   #83
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Okay, just a little heads up... I got a reply to an e-mail I sent to ChangKhan. It's very nice of him to respond at all btw. There are a couple of points that are relevant to this thread, though I'm sure a few people will have received similar responses, who have tried e-mailing Raven.

He addresses the problem of CTF ammo consumption directly, saying that the team is unsure of what, if anything, they intend to do about it. But hey, at least they're looking at the problem.

With regards to my concerns over backstabs and FFA playing problems, the news is less encouraging, as he suggests that I concentrate on challenging people to duels if I don't want a messy sabre fight, or play on a larger map... I fear this is not for me, however, as the reason I don't like FFA v1.03 is because I preferred the faster pace of 1.02. The last thing I want is to slow the game down further by challenging people to duels. Furthermore nobody can win an FFA in this manner, and if I want a duelling competition I go to a duel server. His next piece of advice is excellent for me however, in that he says Team FFA may not be as messy a hotchpotch. He's right of course, but only because Team FFA isn't as prone to backstabbing in groups.

With regards to my concerns over the three "force weaknesses," the pull/backswing one-hit-kill and the general slowness and cumbersomeness of 1.03 deathmatch modes, he makes no comment, which is perfectly understandable considering the volume of e-mails he would have to respond to. Still, very disheartening for me.

I think we must impress upon Raven the fact that a lot of players feel the same about the FFA/CTF problems with 1.03 if we are to get anywhere with the next patch.

/me trundles off to his workroom and puts his thinking cap on.


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Old 05-12-2002, 10:43 PM   #84
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Huh, thats a lil discouraging in general. Maybe it was a form letter, but it sounds like he addressed specific issues.

I still stand by my proposal of one hit kills for saberists swinging at gunners.


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Old 05-12-2002, 11:34 PM   #85
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Spider AL - If you read my thread in game feedback, I got an email from ChangKhan a couple of days ago, in which he said that in a 1.04 patch (if they were going to do one) he had noted down the backstab and ammo consumption issues.

the relevant part of his reply looks like this (I'm cutting out the beginning because it has no real relevance to the game itself, and the end because the Jar-Jar joke would just confuse people)

Quote:
These are very good suggestions (I definitely want to fix the backstabs, I thought they had been fixed, but apparently the other programmer never got around to it, and I like the idea of more ammo per pickup and/or faster respawns... and I've always been in favor of moving slower when running backwards) and I have written them down on my list for a second patch (if we do one).


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Old 05-13-2002, 12:23 AM   #86
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Well that's a little more encouraging... but we must make sure they don't just nerf backstabs and restore ammo, the overblocking will negate the use of the sabre in FFA at all, if that's all they do... hum...


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Old 05-13-2002, 01:32 AM   #87
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I dunno, man. I just got off another two or three servers, and I definitely think that the backstab needs nerfing.

People really WERE running backwards. They were doing nothing BUT the backstab move. Not just, like, two or three out of twelve. I'm talking like EVERY player. It's incredibly stupid looking and REALLY boring to play. It reminds me of the way play was with 1.02, where it became a question of "what's the point?" Honestly, when a move is unbeatable except by doing it back to the other guy (kicking down one or two guys is one thing. Having to kick down an entire team...that gets old VERY fast.) there's just no point in playing. Why? Because you KNOW that these ass masters out there will continue to spam it. Or if there's some other move that sneaks through in the next patch, they'll spam that. Put simply, if you make an easy-to-do move that has no down side to it, people out there will do it.

That's why I think these moves need to be nerfed. There should not be one-hit kills in this game. And if there are moves that dish out SERIOUS damage, IE: anything above 60 hit points or so, then they should be SLOW moves or moves that are EASILY countered if they're fast moves. There should be a downside to using a move like that.

What they did with DFA is just fine by me. What they did with heavy stance and adding blocking is also fine by me. Why? Because it levels the playing field. AND it means that you actually have to practice and work at this game to kick major ass and kill people easily. To me, that's fun. If I fight a good tough fight against someone, and they beat me, I don't mind. A good tough fight is fun. But this BS with people spamming one uber-move is boring and is not at ALL fun.

So, I think Raven should definitely nerf these moves. I don't mind leaving them in the game, they just shouldn't be an uber move. Put simply, there should be NO uber moves in the game.

That is what we call BALANCE. And it is what makes games fun.
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Old 05-13-2002, 12:25 PM   #88
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Wow... this thread has stayed good.

That is a bit discouraging that Raven doesn't sound to sure about future patches. It must be the work load that they have on them at the moment.

Well... I have settled into my game now I think and (sadly) I will now only play No Force Duels. I love them, but the rest of the game has really been turned into a sad parody of Star Wars which should be called "Fart Wars". Really too bad.

I am sure that the MODers will step up soon and create some really great FFA/CTF content that will bring the spark back into the game. The game is really solid, but small things just need a bit of tweaking to make it a near perfect game.


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Old 05-13-2002, 12:31 PM   #89
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I definitely think that the backstab needs nerfing.
I think everyone agrees that the backstab has to be nerfed in the next patch,.. but the game needs more than just that one nerf. Force powers imbalanced, FFAs slow and unwieldy... There's quite a bit to do.

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What they did with heavy stance and adding blocking is also fine by me. Why? Because it levels the playing field. AND it means that you actually have to practice and work at this game to kick major ass and kill people easily.
Hmm, the playing field is always level per-se, in that everyone has the option of using any technique they want, to win, but it's certainly not balanced at the moment.

As for having to be skilled to kick ass, well one always must be skilled to win, and the most skilled players will always win, no matter the rules of the game. All increased blocking in FFA has done, is slow everything down, and encourage bigger groups of sabre fighting people, who die when someone a: Flechette spams them, or b: backstab spams them. That's not my idea of fun.

Quote:
there should be NO uber moves in the game.
That is indeed the point, put concisely and simply. When we're forced to use a single effective move to win, the game's lost its point totally. However nerfing in isolation is not the answer, as that's what has put us in this abysmal situation now.

My message to Raven: nerf the overpowered backswings, yes... but not so much that they're useless, and restore the force balance 1.03 has nerfed, along with the ammo consumption, and the effectiveness of the sabres... because once the backswing has gone and ammo consumption has been restored, the sabre will be no use in FFA at all, unless blocking is reduced too.


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Old 05-14-2002, 01:56 AM   #90
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Al,

I think some force power should remain as it is now. IE: absorb is perfectly balanced at the moment.

They've made it so that if you have absorb 2 and someone hits you with lightning 3, you'll absorb the force power, but your health will drop faster than Ted Kennedy's pants.

But, if you have Absorb 3, you cancel the effect out.

I do think that grip could stand to be beefed up a little, although I don't see how exactly that'd work, since I rarely use grip. I like the idea of maybe dealing out reduced damage, depending on whether you were absorbed or not.

Also, maybe absorb should only cancel out the damage, but not the move itself. IE: if someone grips with 3, and you absorb with 3, you will
not take damage, but will still be held (and must therefore push or sabre throw your way out of the move). At the same time, the enemy's movement speed is reduced, so you don't get people gripping and racing around like Speedy Gonzales after just doing an eightball.

As for the blocking radius, I do think that either a straight out reduction in the angle of protection for blocking would work well for FFA and CTF only (leave duels as they are with blocking). Alternatively, since Raven seems to prefer a uniform method of play, have blocking work less effectively if you're moving (which logically makes sense anyway).

That said, if you're playing on a true FFA server, with guns and sabres, I've had no trouble killing jedi. The weapons still work, if you use them wisely. Same goes for CTF. Someone can charge me with a lightsabre, but if I've got a rocket launcher, your ass is going flying.
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Old 05-14-2002, 01:28 PM   #91
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I think some force power should remain as it is now. IE: absorb is perfectly balanced at the moment.
balanced with what though? As Absorb stands, it makes the Light side far more powerful than the dark. The solution is to beef up the dark, but people hate that idea, because they are fearful of mad drainers and grip bunnies. So Raven has a choice really...

A: Beef Dark!
B: Nerf Light.
C: CUP OF COFFEE!

Undoubtedly "C" will be their first choice. I'd reccommend "A" though, as beefing up the dark side again is only fair.

Quote:
maybe absorb should only cancel out the damage, but not the move itself
Well that's a fine idea, and it was similar in JK1 too. But grip was useful without being unstoppable in version 1.02. If I was slow with my absorb, I could get tipped off a cliff. If I was on the button, I'd save myself. Now, grip poses no threat to lightsiders, and I think that's very unfair to the poor Darksiders wandering around trying to kill us. They should at least get a chance.

Quote:
I do think that either a straight out reduction in the angle of protection for blocking would work well for FFA and CTF only (leave duels as they are with blocking).
Hear hear! Take note Raven, this is the concensus. Overkill with the blocking doesn't help FFA or CTF, even though it makes duels better.

Quote:
Alternatively, since Raven seems to prefer a uniform method of play, have blocking work less effectively if you're moving (which logically makes sense anyway).
Sadly I think you're right, Raven may well choose to simply ignore the fact that FFA and CTF players require different things from the game than duellists... But movement related blocking is better than nothing I suppose... even though it should be implemented anyway, as well as reduced blocking in FFA and CTF.


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Old 05-15-2002, 03:25 PM   #92
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why not just a MOD?

in all the deiscussion about how to turn JK2 from the saberist friendly Jedi game intended by LEC and Raven into just another Half-Life gun clone with swords and magic, why hasn't anyone mentioned simply doing a "Dark Forces" MOD with no sabers or Force powers? from the 1st mention of JK2, the dev's have tried pounding the fact into everyone's heads that this is NOT your average FPS shooter. the game was always intended to focus MUCH more greatly on the saber... in fact, they specifically said their intent was to force the players to focus more on the saber and actual "tactics", rather than being tempted to run around shooting everything in sight... now, it seems the majority of "complaints" about the game or the patch have nothing to do with the game itself, but rather what the old JK community thinks they want at any given time... which, of course, is what MOD's are for! leave JK2 alone, and if anytihng needs to be "fixed" in a patch, then let's try to keep it limited to things which are actually "broken" and not try changing all aspects of the game into something it was never meant to be, simply because of a gathering of opinions...

as someone here mentioned before, the whiners are the ones who post the most, while the ones who enjoy the game are too busy playing it, so no matter how many of you here think the game needs to be more "gun friendly", there's no telling how many of us actually enjoy a saber focused game for dedicated saberists. WHERE IS OUR GAME IF THIS IS NOT IT?! stop telling Raven how you think they should have planned the game, and try telling them things are or appear to be actual glitches in the game. Sith-grip in JK was a glitch, but nobody ever tried to fix it but instead labled it a cheat or a cheap move. why is it now, that everyone expects the game to be constructed around this need to be able to shoot people in the back? when was the last time you actually saw a Jedi in a Star Wars movie or novel shooting a rocket launcher at a stormtrooper? i mean, if you're a Jedi, you act like a Jedi. if you don't want to act like a Jedi, then don't play Jedi Knight, or make a Dark Forces MOD where you can all be merceneries and play with your guns...

DON'T KILL THE ZEN OF A GOOD SABER DUEL...

that's all i ask. don't kill this game or mutate it into a clone of all the other games out there... and if Raven actually allows this small group of the public to do so, then shame on them, as well. if i have seen anything that needs to be fixed, it is the fact that in SP or MP, when using less than 3 stars for Saber Throw, the saber seems to get stuck in mid-air about 3 feet in front of my player... i've seen it happen with others online before the patch, and perhaps for many of you it has never happened or ceased to happen after the patch, but i still have a saber with a mind of its own... not only does it defy the logic of the Force by continuing to float in front of me without being able to drain the last of my mana enough to drop to the ground OR return to my hand so i can continue battling. THIS is a glitch, whether it is a common glitch, or a rare one... let's try fixing things like this before we start talking about a "need" for grappling hooks...

oh, and STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS A SHOOTER GAME! that is something it was NEVER meant to be... tell them, Raven dev's! TELL THEM!

sincerely,
anty
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Old 05-15-2002, 05:18 PM   #93
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in all the deiscussion about how to turn JK2 from the saberist friendly Jedi game intended by LEC and Raven into just another Half-Life gun clone with swords and magic
Anyone who's asking for JO to be turned into a half-life clone should be shot. Of course, nobody's asked for such a thing in this thread.

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Sith-grip in JK was a glitch, but nobody ever tried to fix it but instead labled it a cheat or a cheap move. why is it now, that everyone expects the game to be constructed around this need to be able to shoot people in the back?
The reason Sith Grip was never patched, was because Lucasarts never bothered to patch it. Everyone (like myself) who refused to use Sithgrip because it was a seriously imbalancing bug, wished that it could be patched. However we were realistic, and knew that LEC would never bother, as the size of the JK community never warranted much effort on the part of LEC.

Now, Pre-patch, I disliked Drain's power, and felt a twinge of fear every time someone ran at me who had Drain. I wouldn't call Drain's initial power a bug, because it wasn't. But, I could have lived without drain being patched at all. I could have survived as a lightsider, against darksiders who used it. And, as you know, I did.

Now, the sides are imbalanced, because it's SO HARD to achieve balance in a game. Dark is now... weak. That's the effect of 1.03. JO also belongs to the Darksiders'. It's been taken away from them.

Quote:
in fact, they specifically said their intent was to force the players to focus more on the saber and actual "tactics", rather than being tempted to run around shooting everything in sight...
Firstly, it takes exquisite skill to do the things that experienced gunners do. That needs to be made clear for those unaware of the fact. Secondly, the sabre has been DISEMPOWERED by this patch, not empowered. The damage hits do, has been decreased, so the only way to defeat people quickly, is if you're willing to be cheap, and use the backswing repetitively. Now, if the backswing is nerfed in isolation, what do you think will happen? People will use GUNS MORE. Only, since ammo is so scarce, they will camp more. This is just human nature, to adapt to changes. Now hopefully, imbalances like this will be taken into account for the next patch... The backswing can't simply be nerfed in isolation, because sabres will be less desirable than guns if it is so nerfed.

Sabres, my friend, were VERY useful before the patch. A lot of people had trouble with them, to be sure... but that doesn't mean they weren't effective. Often, people complained that the sabres were weak when they got shot... And they do the same thing now. This patch, and subsequent patches, won't alter the whiners one bit... they will continue to whine, because whining is what happens when the score at the end of the game doesn't live up to the expectations of someone's over-inflated ego. The fact is now, I'm less likely to spend the thirty seconds it'd take to duel one or two people to the death, than I am to shoot them. So from my perspective, the perspective of someone who takes pride in winning too, the patch has nerfed the sabres and slowed down the gunplay without reducing its damage.

This has also encouraged people to group together in big tight sabrefighting bundles, so there are MORE kills when someone fires a flechette into the middle of the group.

The patch... has NOT improved FFA. It's made all the problems worse, without fixing any. As for CTF, it's not currently my favourite mode, as the gameplay has been horribly reduced by the patch. Just ask any CTFer more experienced than me.

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if you're a Jedi, you act like a Jedi. if you don't want to act like a Jedi, then don't play Jedi Knight, or make a Dark Forces MOD where you can all be merceneries and play with your guns...
This, I find less than pleasant. In JK, guns were popular. In JO, guns are popular. There are SO MANY non-guns players and servers out there, why do people feel the need to ridicule and exclude those who enjoy gunplay? It's snobbery, and worse, it's deeply unfair and insulting. When I want to play with the lightsabre, I play with the lightsabre, whatever server I'm on. BUT, and here's the key difference between me and some other people, I do NOT complain when I get shot. Far from it, if it was a good shot, I compliment my opponent on it! But I have honour. Not everyone has honour. Those without honour will always complain if they get shot on a server SET TO USE GUNS. They will always complain if they get pushed to their death ON A SERVER SET TO USE FORCE.

That DOESN'T mean that they have a legitimate point. I love the guns in Jedi Outcast, and I love mixing them with using the sabre, and I love using both with the force powers. A lot of people, most of whom don't post here, share that love. The love of Full Force Guns. But I play FF sabres only too! And NF sabres. Duel, Jedi Master is one of my favourites! As is holocron Sabres only. When I want to duel properly 1 on 1, I go to a duel server, as that's what its for. When I want to shoot some people and sabre them a bit, I go to a guns server. When I want to destroy people with the power of the force, I go to a full force server.

I never complain about those who enjoy other game modes. I don't ridicule them, or tell them to "go away" or "stop playing JO." To do so is very very bad, in my opinion, and should be the first thing we in the JO community strive to stop, and never allow. It's jingoism.

Quote:
DON'T KILL THE ZEN OF A GOOD SABER DUEL...
Nobody in this thread has suggested that duels be changed in any way. In fact, most of the people posting in here, myself included, have remarked that the general flow of duel mode has been improved by the patch, and we have further said that we must take care to preserve this feeling of duelling if there is another patch.

Quote:
and STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS A SHOOTER GAME!
I'm appalled at this. The combination of guns and force powers is both a staid tradition, and also immense fun for those who play it and love it. Let's make this clear, while accusing others of forcing their view of what JO should be like onto the players of the game, you yourself are insisting that those who love guns with sabres and force should quit complaining and go away. That's like going onto the zone, going into a clearly labelled Canyon Oasis game, and screaming at the happily gunning players that "you're NOT PLAYING RIGHT!" It's like going onto a CTF server and shouting "DUELS IN THE MIDDLE GROUND ONLY!" I play sabres only, I love sabres only, but when I want sabres only, I go to a sabres only server. The lord sayeth: Thou shalt always define thy games correctly, and furthermore thou shalt not complain if thou hast joined a game which was clearly a guns game, about said guns.

The game is for EVERYONE except cheaters. The fact that so many players are so intolerant of other players who enjoy different things than themselves, is most dark and depressing.


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Old 05-15-2002, 06:28 PM   #94
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i'm sorry, did i say "remove all guns"? no? oh, i didn't think so. the point you think contradicts mine only proves my point...

YES guns add diversity to the game, just as adding sabers and force powers to any other Q3 game would add to that game's diversity... but what fun would Voyager be if you try to blast a Kinlgon with a phaser and get Froce gripped and a saber thrown at you? just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should. if it's a bug, fix it. if it's a matter of wanting the game to be different from what is supposed to be, then why not go the way of a MOD? that's the point of them, right? Q3 games are SO very MOD friendly, that non-essential changes do not need to be forced onto everyone. i don't hate gunners, and i don't hate getting shot, but i would hate for this game to be ruined for me.

now, all i have left to say is that you, too, are aware of the saber throw glitch, as i have seen you effected by it personally. do you agree that this is something which takes priority over fne tuning ammo consumption in ctf games? or is your argument for nothing than sake of argument?
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Old 05-15-2002, 06:52 PM   #95
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i'm sorry, did i say "remove all guns"? no? oh, i didn't think so. the point you think contradicts mine only proves my point...
If I'm not mistaken, your point was that you think sabres should be indisputably more powerful than guns, no? And that you think that certain measures being discussed in this forum and thread may make guns equal or more powerful than the sabre, therefore you oppose it?

If so, then I feel my post addresses those points. If not, I've gotten the wrong end of the stick completely.

But I, only I mind you, I'm not speaking for anyone but myself, think that sabres should be equal to guns, but not more powerful. Likewise guns should not be more powerful than the sabre. It's just my view, but it's what I'm campaigning for in the next patch, as sabres are just not as powerful as guns in 1.03, unless one uses cheap techniques. I want the sabre to be re-empowered to negate the usage of backswing, but I want ammo consumption values to be restored so that there will be less camping, and more fluidity. I have no objection to rates of fire being reduced, nor do I have any objection to damage of guns being reduced a wee bit.

Quote:
but i would hate for this game to be ruined for me.
So would I. But, the game HAS in many respects been ruined for me.

Hmm, do you prefer 1.03 to 1.02? If 1.02 was good for you, then I don't see what we're arguing about. I wish a return to the 1.02 FFA and CTF dynamic, while maintaining the feeling of the current duel.

Quote:
now, all i have left to say is that you, too, are aware of the saber throw glitch, as i have seen you effected by it personally. do you agree that this is something which takes priority over fne tuning ammo consumption in ctf games?
I don't actually use Sabre throw in FFA or CTF at all... when I do duel, I use it certainly. But I have to say, the glitch has only affected me once or twice, but once or twice, all my buttons have done nothing but +taunt, for no apparent reason. So it doesn't affect me all that much. If it affects you a lot, then it is a serious bug! And must be patched, if there is to be a next patch.

Quote:
or is your argument for nothing than sake of argument?
Well that's not cricket! I only argue over what I truly believe in. Anyone who thinks otherwise is incorrect, to put it mildly.


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Old 05-15-2002, 07:11 PM   #96
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ok, so we can agrre that a bug is a bug and should be fixed, although not everyone experiences the same bugs. your taunt bug does not affect me in any way, and i never would have known about it if you hadn't mentiponed it, as many probably think the same about the saber throw glitch... and of course, there's the chance that somebody out there is going insane because their taunt command is out of control and calling them a "fodder eating nerf herder" or something ridiculously close to Stephen King's cameo in Maximum Overdrive... SO, THAT is another BUG which should be fixed, correct? if we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that such a change would be best fixed BEFORE implementing game play changes which alter the balance of not only power, but desirability. perhaps the notion of being more or less powerful is too vague for my point. a lightsaber should not be able to block a rocket launcher or other explosive, and i would not expect a lightsaber, even in the hands of Yoda himself, to be able to block ALL the firepower coming from a heavy repeater or secondary attack on an ST-rifle, but i think if the dev's decided less ammo would make the sabers a little more desirable than the guns, and thus encourage more saber use, then why argue with them?

in all the well thought out, mature discussions regarding these changes, can you answer me two things? why not a MOD for the changes to balance in powers of weapons and sabers? why does it have to be a patch in an "all or nothing" scenario... and i must repeat, as none have answered... where is our saber friendly game, if this is not it?
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Old 05-15-2002, 07:40 PM   #97
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Absolutely bugs should be fixed, which is not to say gameplay should not be tweaked, but I'm sure Raven would be grateful to hear about any bugs that come our way. Bugs, like the overkill of DFA, as Sithgrip was before, must be fixed. I don't think anyone disagrees with that at all. Backswing's as bad as any bug though.

As for

Quote:
why not a MOD for the changes to balance in powers of weapons and sabers? why does it have to be a patch in an "all or nothing" scenario...
Well, first of all (and only my opinion) competitive scope is important. I wish for JO to be successful in the competitive arena with prizes and tournaments. Why d'you think I've spent all this time getting good at the game? As it stands, I don't foresee JO being a major CTF or FFA sport, because of the detrimental effects of 1.03, that have slowed the game down considerably and made both guns and sabres cumbersome in a free-for-all or deathmatch style game. Competitive leagues and so forth tend to use the latest patched version because of bugfixes, and they're less likely to employ a mod.

So there's the competitive, and then there's the fact that we feel something which we had, has been taken away from us... That sick feeling in your gut, the fear that you may lose what you LOVE about JO... the thing that makes you post here...

We've gone through that. We're on the other side. We've LOST something we love. We're fighting to get it back. That sick feeling has turned to a stone... weighing our elation down. Barely a month playing the game we love, and suddenly it's snatched away. Okay, so I'm a dramatist, sue me. The feeling's there though.

Then, there's the difficulty of finding a server that runs the mod you like. It's easy to find a 1.03 server now, but it's already getting harder to find 1.02 servers.

Finally the poor Darksiders. I'm a lightsider so I have an unbiased opinion of this: The Dark Side is now no threat to we lightsiders. None at all. The only threat, the only person whom I fear may defeat me on a server... is another lightsider. Surely that must be fixed in the next patch, the two sides are there for a reason.

Quote:
where is our saber friendly game, if this is not it?
Now you know I love sabres. I love them. That's why I play JO really, for the sabres. Pre-patch, I think sabres and guns were pretty well balanced. With the aid of the force, there wasn't a gunner I couldn't evade long enough for their absorb or dark rage to wear off... THEN I would STRIKE! mwahahahr. I won games by huge margins, because I knew when to use each weapon available. Including the sabre.

But sabre only servers are rife! More than plentiful. How would decreasing ammo costs in CTF again affect how sabre-friendly the game is?


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Old 05-15-2002, 08:24 PM   #98
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Quote:
Okay, so I'm a dramatist, sue me.
Why? I feel a little drama is appropriate considering what might happen to this game. I had never ever been so enticed by a game before, and since 1.03 I hardly play it anymore. I installed, it played with much joy. For a while. After day three I was getting bored. I found myself going back to real life, which is fine, but there are always periods in which it isn't avaliable due to work/whatever... Why? Bunch of reasons explained above. It just doesn't feel right.
I really liked JK2. I thought 1.02 needed work. 1.03 definately needs work. After a demo I saw today together with a bunch of things I had already seen for myself I'm convinced that 1.03 is not stable. Many things are obviously not working the way they were intended.
Now we might never get another patch... maybe.
I feel sad. My favorite game isn't as enticing anymore.
OK, I'm done being a melodramatic prick...
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Old 05-15-2002, 08:32 PM   #99
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Aren't we all, Nill old bean.


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Old 05-16-2002, 03:05 AM   #100
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The biggest problem facing Raven in terms of balancing JK2 is the large discrepancy between each of the game dynamics. It seems as if Raven just took a hodgemosh of issues from various posts regarding various imbalances and addressed them all simaultaneously. The result? Skills that were imbalanced in one dynamic (such as FFA) are now counter-productive to use in duel, or in gun servers, etc.

Some examples:
Increased Lightsaber blocking + Lower Damage:
-CTF on saber-only server is now a joke (and it arguably had been even in the last version.) Not only does absorb+speed make you essentially invulnerable (sabers too slow to hit you when you run past, absorb negates force powers), but the enchanced blocking and lower damage now makes it so anyone can run flags. CTF used to work vaguely along these lines:
Blue Team flagrunner absorb+speed whores the Red Flag.
Red Team flagrunner absorb+speed whores the Blue Flag.
Both flagrunners hide in their base. Each team attempts to mob flag carrier on opposite team and kill him by surrounding him and drain+gripwhoring him while simaultaneously beating on him.
Now grip is nerfed, drain is nerfed, absorb is nerfed, and with increased blocking / decreased damage (compounded with the abundance of healing kits/shields at home base on virtually every CTF map), it is nearly impossible to kill the flag capper unless he plays extremely poorly.
-Gun servers: Lightsabers are now even more useless on gun servers. Even if we set the obvious ease-of-use differences aside, the fact that the person who uses the gun has 26 more force points to spend on force skills since he doesn't have to invest in saber attack/defense already indicates a clear imbalance. This balance has been fixed in the realm of secondary-fire whoring (the alt-fire on repeater still fires more quickly than one can force push), however, the decrease in lightsaber damage further reduces the lightsaber to a weapon of desparation in a gun server, much like the knife/gauntlet in other DM games (except the lightsaber does less damage and if the gunner is jumping w/ absorb is untouchable.)
-Duels
If Raven had toned down damage proportionally, then duels would only be prolonged and their dream of having an intense close up melee fight would become reality. However, Raven did not tone down damage universally. As a result, we have moves that rarely connect and do low damage (normal swings), moves that rarely connect on a good player and leave you exposed (yellow/red finisher), and moves that instant kill and are unblockable (backstab).

DFA:
-FFA: DFA was very effective in FFA because of the crowding factor. Most victims of DFA were unable to dodge due to crowding and were probably paying more attention to the mob around them than the DFA whore perched outside the mob. Thus, DFA was essentially a crowd-clearer. Since no one would be focusing on the straggler, no one would prepare for his customary DFA + spin-mouse-like-madman-to-hit-everything-around-him maneuver. The effectiveness of DFA as a crowd clearer is now toned down since you can only hit what's in front of you, and only while your in the air. However, it is still a functional skill in FFAs.
-Duel: DFA in duels post-patch was almost useless. The move was easy to dodge by an attentive player, and despite being able to rotate after the DFA, a red side-swing would still be able to connect (dealing 100 dmg) without endangering the swinger. DFA in duels now is a suicide maneuver that only works out of sheer luck (your target wasn't able to move in a direction), and after landing your open to a backstab from any direction (even if the guy walks onto your saber and takes minor damage) since you are immobilized.

Drain/Absorb:
-FFA: Drain was powerful for the same reason DFA was powerful in FFA. Not everyone would be attentive enough to immediately hit absorb. As a result, you'd usually have a large mob of people with no force (pull/backswing bait), and a few people with force (the drainer/absorbers). Drain in FFA now is still viable for gaining health (since you drain from a crowd your health still rockets up), and is much more balanced from its previous position of negating the force capabilities of crowds.
-Duels: The balance between Drain/Absorb varied depending on the map. Since duels revolved (even post-patch) on the pull-backsweep combo, drain only dominated on maps where the drainer could run away in order to outlast the absorber. Now, drain is useless in duels as it can't drain enough force to stop the lightsider from re-activing absorb immediately after the drain.
-CTF: The only purpose drain played in CTF was to negate the flagbearers force so that he could be gripped then ganked while he was hiding in his base. The decreased effectiveness of drain and grip combined with the increased effectiveness of absorb has now made it literally impossible to kill a competent flagbearer who is trying to stay alive (as opposed to trying to score kills.)

In other words, the role various elements had on Jk2's gameplay varied drastically with the game type being played. I personally believe that balancing these skills requires either:
a) The skills be tweaked differently depending on the gametype
b) The gametypes be tweaked in order to equalize the roles played by various saber/force/gun skills in the different gametypes.
c) Make every saber/force/gun skill so ridiculously powerful that differences in balance would be miniscule. This would be akin to the "Rocket Arena" mod for Quake 3.
Otherwise, "balancing" an issue for one specific gametype will only imbalance it for all the other gametypes.

Here's an breakdown of the fundamental factors behind each
gamteype:

Saber-FFA:
-Large crowds.
-Difficult to discern the health of each player, or even to target specific ones.
-Distracted players.
-Wide range of health amongst the players (thus you want high damage moves in order to maximize the amount of players you kill, since injuring a player only makes him vulnerable to death by another player.)
-"Harvesting" of the newbies (when players constantly run from the good players / long fights in order to gain frags by quickly killing the easiest targets.
-Abundant healing
Duels:
-1 on 1
-Focused players
-You generaly have a good idea of the other player's health.
-Knockdown plays a prominent role (guaranteed hit.)
-No healing.

CTF:
-Large crowds again (even more tightly packed than FFA due to prescence of
-Revolves around two objectives, each usually carried by a player who becomes purely defensive.
-Uber-abundant healing.
-Coordinated force (when the teams work together to use force powers, such as drain/grip, simaultaneously .)

That's all I have time for right now since I have APs tomorrow and, in order to not fail like the inane dolt I am, I require rest. I am pleased that Raven is showing an interest in the gaming community (although as of this patch it seems directed towards the less competent faction of the gaming community), and I hope Raven will continue trying to balance this multi-faceted game.
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Old 05-16-2002, 03:32 AM   #101
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My opinion.

I for one liked 1.02. Yes, you had DFA spammers, but fights were more lethal. A few hits ended the fight, which made for faster and better fun IMO. Now people fight, and fight, and fight, and fight. One Saber fight I had lasted five minutes. I'm not a very skilled player, but I can't remember ANY match with a single player, in ANY game, lasting so long.

I don't like the time it takes to kill an enemy, it doesn't feel right. A saber should kill with a few blows, not eight. The predominant tactic post 1.02 is Push/Pull repeatedly, Backstab. I can't say since I didn't play it for long, but 1.02 never had such 'Push/Pull enemy to ground, win' situations.

Also, I think blocking is a tad too powerful. Why you ask? It has a BIG radius. Also it seems that no matter how you move, as long as the enemy is not attacking, Medium and Light land NO blows. I think that is wrong, at least the radius should be toned down.
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Old 05-16-2002, 03:27 PM   #102
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Quote:
In other words, the role various elements had on Jk2's gameplay varied drastically with the game type being played.
You've hit the nail RIGHT on the head with your post Stratus. The balance across the board was better in 1.02 in my opinion, but what's more important is that Raven listens to the legitimate argument that different game modes require different things from the ruleset. What has made Duel mode much more interesting in NF, has not made CTF or FFA better in FF. If anything, it's made it worse.

Quote:
I don't like the time it takes to kill an enemy, it doesn't feel right. A saber should kill with a few blows, not eight.
Absolutely correct Kf, I couldn't agree more.


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Old 05-16-2002, 10:05 PM   #103
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The most direct effect that backstabbing has on gameplay right now is that its the only viable move to do in a close up melee. Actually, viable is an understatement. Its a guaranteed kill close up in a melee. That's the issue that needs to be fixed- not slowing down backpedalling.

All of the effective backstabbers that I have seen run forwards and spin around quickly when they are in range to do their backstab. However, I assume Raven is like most developing companies and prefers to not be told how to fix their game. Instead, I'd like to bring to light some other/future imbalances that will arise when backstab loses its position as the dominant close-up skill.

Saberthrow: This has already been mentioned by many people, but the degree to which it is imbalanced, I believe, is severely understated. The basic procedure for hitting someone with a saberswing is to:
1) Begin your swing
2) Move in to him
3) Remain with him until the saberswing completes.
Now, anytime during this process you are open to a hit since you can't block while prepping your swing. Thus, the good players time it so that they are out of range until their swing is in the arc that deals significant damage. However, as soon as you throw in saberthrow, this system gets screwed over. All the thrower has to do is jam mouse2 at any point in this process and then roll backwards, thus dealing 30 damage (which equals that of a maximum-damage blue/yellow normal swing and is half of a red swing), and putting them out of range for step 3 since their speed becomes higher than the attacking player. Even in full force duels, normal swings are almost always counter-productive. Healing 25 (out of 30) points of the saber damage w/ lightside would cost 50 force points (half your pool on force master level), while draining as darkside would cost you about 38 force points (assuming the other player had no absorb and had a full pool of force.)

Of course, if you nerf throw too much then saber becomes even more useless in comparison with guns.

Force Kick:
They did not fix force kick in 1.03. Adding in the "double tap" has only made it better. The double-tap allows you to force kick later into your jump, thus extending the range at which it can be used. Granted, the damage is slightly reduced (27 I think), it is still better than all the normal saber swings in that
1) Its unblockable
2) It pierces shielding
3) It has a chance to knock the player down
4) It cancels the other player's swing thus keeping you safe after the attack has been executed.
5) Unlike a saberswing, you are able to block at every point leading up to, and during, the flipkick.
And it is still possible to flipkick crouching players, you just need to turn your mouse so that you are flipkicking them from your side rather than your front.

And finally, pertaining to the balancing of saber-styles across the spectrum of gametypes, I personally don't think it can be done with simply tweaking speed/blocking/damage because the costs of each saberstyle vary with the mod type.
On no force servers, everyone has equal access to each style (no force servers are max offense/max defense and oftentimes, max throw as well.) In this case, the styles should be balanced equally so that each plays an equal role.
However, on low force servers (say, you have less than 50 points to distribute), the offensive style costs 13 more points to get than the defensive style. These 13 points could have been otherwise spend for a greater access to force powers. Making offensive stance be equally effective to defensive stance would be analogous to making level three absorb as effective as level one absorb. In otherwords, if you have to invest more force points into a skill, it should be better.
This investment of force points isn't as noticeable on full force servers in this current version since there are only 4 force powers worth getting (jump, push/pull, absorb), and you have enough points to max out these, saber offense/defense, and protect (in order to recover from being pulled.)

In short, making the defensive/medium stance as effective as the offensive stance may balance the gameplay on no force servers since everyone always has all three stances at their disposal, but it would imbalance the stances on force servers since the red stance would essentially be the blue stance minus 13 force points.
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Old 05-17-2002, 05:54 AM   #104
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Excellent post fgStratus! This thread is getting better and better, but at the same my hopes are going down because only now I'm starting to understand what a difficult task balancing this game would be (relative balance). Right now I'm pretty content to wait until 1.04 comes out. Perhaps they try to tweak things heavily, if they do I've got a feeling it's going to be a stab in to dark just like 1.03 was. Maybe they will pull it off and we will have a good game in our hands, but I doubt it. The other possibility is that they tweak couple of the biggest issues people are having with the game and then let it be. After all they got SOF2 to support as well and new games to make. Raven isn't exactly famous for their customer support even if they make high quality games (which JK2 is).

Now I'm going to ask you a question. If the 1.04 will make gameplay better, but (probably) only in most mandatory ways, are you going to continue playing it? This question is especially important for people like Spider Al who aim for the (hopefully) big upcoming competitions.

I play for fun, and because playing JKO isn't very fun for me right now I've stopped playing it. I still haunt these forums and I still make maps (that's my other gaming related hobby), but before gameplay is heavily tweaked I'm not going to touch the game itself. One of my biggest gripe with this game is that it's so good. And now in my eyes Raven either by ignorance or lazyness is throwing this game away... I can't stand it. Second part of my question is, although we know that it would be though to get players for a MOD, would you play it? Because I would, but on the other hand I've got no interest in competitive playing unless the gameplay is top notch. And a MOD would probably need pretty big user base before anyone would make competitions for it.
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Old 05-17-2002, 08:15 AM   #105
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Unhappy sob... boohoo

The one thing I don't get is why they beefed up things in respect to other things they nerfed. If you make one thing more effective you certainly shouldn't tone down other things that directly relate to it.
They added extra blocking AND toned the saber damage down.
They beefed absorb AND nerfed drain and grip.
The blocking radius is huge now AND you hardly get any ammo.
I would have said one or the other, not both like this.
Sigh, I gave up on JK2 now, I'm waiting until 1.04.
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Old 05-17-2002, 11:45 AM   #106
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I think Raven's just tried to please the vocal minority in this patch. But what else can we ask them to do? It's a tricky, dangerous situation.


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Old 05-17-2002, 01:36 PM   #107
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Yeah... that it is. The truth is I'm probably going to organize a mod no matter what kind of patch Raven puts out. Simply because I believe there are things inheritent to JKO, like the shield system that need to be changed (imho that is).

I've never tried anything like it before, but I'm hopefully about finding people who feel as I do about this game. Some of the things I'd like to see changed, or at least tested would be:

- Lightsaber is not affected by shields (which I would change to armor, just in the spirit on Star Wars).

- Kick damage down to 10 or so, it should be difficult to kill someone wielding lightsaber with simple kicks. (edit: actually perhaps not, maybe the 18-20 it's now is better, but the person using kick shoudl also be vulnerable to saber attacks during the kick to allow counters).

- Up lightsaber damage so it would only take 1 (clean hit to torso / head) to 3 hits to kill a person with 100 health.

- Change blocking somehow, perhaps only thing that needs to be done is the reduced blocking radius, perhaps something else is needed.

- Balance the force powers better, I also feel that lightsaber combats with force shouldn't turn into push / pull fest which they are now.

- Absorb should be invisible but it should eat mana much more rapidly and perhaps have a initial cost.

- Healing should be more effective, but should also have a drawback like meditatio etc.

- I think Drains primary effect should be draining enemy force as dark side is more attack oriented, healing should be a side effect, yet usefull.

- Grip... perhaps hard to believe but I haven't even tried this after 1.03 so I'm not sure how severe the nerf is. Should be made usefull which people are saying it's not right now.

- Sabercombat... probably the trickiest part of them all. I'd want to make different moves for each stance and have them separated. To actually make you able to specialize in single stance. Each stance should also have enough depth to it. Of course there shouldn't be anything to stop you from using all the stance should you choose to do so.

- Guns... these need to be balanced with rest of the game somehow. Guns are obviously the best weapon from afar, but close up saberist should cut gunner to pieces unless the gun toting rambo could evade somehow .

There's more than this of course, but that's the list that first came to my mind.
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Old 05-17-2002, 04:15 PM   #108
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Quote:
If the 1.04 will make gameplay better, but (probably) only in most mandatory ways, are you going to continue playing it?
Well, yeah. But only for fun, and probably only in single-player. It's depressing really, 1.02 was the best competitive game I'd ever played.

Quote:
Guns... these need to be balanced with rest of the game somehow. Guns are obviously the best weapon from afar, but close up saberist should cut gunner to pieces unless the gun toting rambo could evade somehow
This is the point I agree with most violently. Sabres just don't do enough damage in 1.03 to make them dangerous against gunners, unless you knock them over and hit them.

And Nill, you're on the ball as ever. Perfectly put.


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Old 05-17-2002, 09:06 PM   #109
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Since we've discussed this as a potential patch change previously in this thread, I felt the need to post this info here....this comes from Kenn Hoekstra's updated .plan today:

Name: Kenn Hoekstra
Email: khoekstra@ravensoft.com
Description: Project Admin
Project: General
Web Page: Kenn's Web Site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Friday, May 17th, 2002 - A few things for
the weekend:

...<edited>...

2. For those of you unhappy with the increased
saber blocking in CTF and FFA modes in the 1.03
patch for Jedi Outcast, you can turn off the
changes by setting the CVAR g_saberTraceSaberFirst
to "0" in your server configs. Setting this
to "1" = More Blocking, "0" = Less Blocking. It
defaults to "1" in 1.03.


TDS
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Old 05-17-2002, 10:03 PM   #110
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Well that's an excellent piece of news! May I commend you with this orange, TDS?

/me chucks an orange at TDS

Enjoy! Citrus goodness, well deserved... Now to inform me server admin mates...


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Old 05-18-2002, 01:58 PM   #111
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Has anyone actually played against humans to see what the game plays when the blocking is decreased? I'm going to try it against bots tonight but that's not the same thing.

Btw, I've almost finished my first JKO level (and my first level since the original Quake ), here are two screenshots.

Screenie one:


And screenie two:


Sorry for stealing your thread for my sinister purposes, wont do again, promise
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Old 05-18-2002, 11:08 PM   #112
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The only sinister thing about your post, Etz, is that you must have sold your soul to one of the denizens of the lower planes in order to make a level that looks that nice. :P


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Old 05-19-2002, 04:52 AM   #113
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Never!
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Old 05-19-2002, 12:10 PM   #114
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Are there 'gunners' or simply people that play dm and ctf servers that have guns?

You might consider me a gunner, because thats about all i use, however i switch to a saber when i need to, mostly for mobility and when i get pulled.

I'd gladly use the saber *more* if it were more effective. Ive been saying that sabers against anyone not holding one should equate to a 1 hit kill or close to it. I want *more* viable options in CTF, i don't want less.

The only thing that needs to be done to balance ctf in regards to sabers vs guns is to make the saber more powerful so that its on par with the other weapons.

And I can guarantee you won't get any complaints from any serious CTF'rs, we want *more* methods of wreaking mayhem. I'd say most of us are concerned with the dynamics involved in getting, keeping, protecting etc rather than upset with saberists.

Sabers only ctf is essentially ridiculous with the current maps. I could see it being fairly interesting in a map with no powerups and a very varried interior design that let people lurk around, however the current maps need long range and powerful weapons to allow you to defend your flag.

On top of that. I dunno how many of you know about rage/speed, but lemme inform you: You can turn both of these on at the same time. This makes you extremely mobile and powerful. You take less damage, you clear a lot of ground because both rage and speed increase your movement speed and the effect is cumulative. + you do more damage.

Its difficult to kill someone with rage/speed as it is, since you can cut thru unprotected people like butter with a golan. You've got to run like lemmings and pull the person around until his rage runs out or yer in trouble.

With the 1.03 ammo constraints its damn near impossible to kill someone rolling thru yer base with rage/speed. You've got to rely on pulling them, and that doesn't work if they have a teamate energizing them.

I love the rage/speed combo, but its nearly an exploit in 1.03 simply because you don't have enough ammo to fight back. In 1.02 you've got a lot of options in dealing with attackers using the combo; not so in 1.03.

If rage/speed gets nerfed because people start to figure it out im gonna quit playing. Its the closest thing to JK1's speed that you can get in this game, and its brilliantly balanced in 1.02.

How bout the yavin roof? You guys prolly don't even know about that, but people are gonna figure it out eventually, and you'll be sorry. Sit up there with absorb and a sniper rifle and yer essentially untouchable. Its pretty difficult to get someone down now, but not as bad as it is in 1.03.

Guns and the saber need to be useful for CTF to work right, im pretty confident Raven will figure it out with the next patch.

BTW for all of you who tell us CTF'rs/Gunners to go play q3, i'd like you to tell me which q3 mod other than Jk2 has the complexity of the force in JK2? there's a reason so many of us stuck to JK for so long, even playing guns. It has nothing to do with starwars, its because we like the gameplay dynamic. Nothing else makes the cut.


Lucky


Crackas, always wastin my flava
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Old 05-19-2002, 12:31 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheDarkSide
Purplwolf,

I've been trying to make that point for a bazillion threads now.
The backsweep is in v1.02, and it's even more powerful than it is in the new patch.
yeah couldnt put it better myself. I used it far more in 1.02 and all you DFA abusers have stolen my favourite move
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Old 05-20-2002, 10:30 PM   #116
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Quote:
BTW for all of you who tell us CTF'rs/Gunners to go play q3, i'd like you to tell me which q3 mod other than Jk2 has the complexity of the force in JK2? there's a reason so many of us stuck to JK for so long, even playing guns. It has nothing to do with starwars, its because we like the gameplay dynamic. Nothing else makes the cut.
Hear hear!


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Old 05-21-2002, 06:22 AM   #117
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great post lucky.

but spider, i always found in .02 that saberists had an advantage vs gunners anyway. with all the changes in the new version AND killing gun ammo seemed redundant and just eliminated gun viability completely.
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Old 05-22-2002, 09:38 PM   #118
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Quote:
i always found in .02 that saberists had an advantage vs gunners anyway. with all the changes in the new version AND killing gun ammo seemed redundant and just eliminated gun viability completely.
No gunner worth his salt would have trouble with sabreists in 1.02 Nathan mate... at least not with absorb!

Yep, a gunner with absorb, as in JK1, is fairly unstoppable. Now in 1.03, absorb has been made more powerful, and with the sabre damage being reduced as it has been, I can trundle round with my ST and Flechette for hours without even drawing my glowstick once. Yes, I have to be more careful with my ammo and yes, games progress slower, but absorbant gunners were always the strongest in 1.02, and in 1.03? Even stronger. Everyone else has been made weak.


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Old 05-22-2002, 10:15 PM   #119
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spider, i cannot tell you how much i love your last post. it proves the argument that ive been having for days about the visibility of absorb being ESSENTIAL in the balance. (i may need to come back and quote it)

I could always beat a gunner with my saber. Personally, i dont feel that that's much of a brag. That i could always beat a gunner with my gun, an assertion that i am also willing to make, is another story entirely.
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Old 05-22-2002, 11:07 PM   #120
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the argument that ive been having for days about the visibility of absorb being ESSENTIAL in the balance.
Frankly Nathan, Absorb was perfect in 1.02, and as you know I'm a lightsider. The only thing that was wrong with 1.02 was the DFA's bugs. That's all that should have been fixed... the forces were perfectly balanced, the weapons were all useful. Er, except the DEMP of course.

It's a real shame that they felt the need to fix, that which was not broken.

Tonight, on a 1.03 duel server with medium force, (full powered jump) Two fellows banded together to tell me how lame I was for using the kick. According to these two fellows (OneDrop and Boba Fett/Reborn Jedi were their names) kick is lame, as is hitting people when they're on the floor, using red style, not bowing before every duel... the list goes on.

It was THOSE kind of people, the... let's put it bluntly, the whiners, the young kids who simply could not stand to lose against someone who had figured out a way round their cunning "flail in light stance" plan, that convinced Raven to tweak JO so massively. According to my CS playing friends, the same problem has occurred in CS to a lesser degree. And some people have said on this very board that Tribes 2 has been newbienerfed beyond all recognition.

WHEN will it end? Can't the developers see that they're only ruining the game for people who have played it for more than two minutes? Can't they see that it would be a bigger competitive success if it was left in the state in which it was released?

God knows, I don't. I wish I understood. Thoughts, anybody?


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