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Old 05-15-2002, 03:56 AM   #1
Hemi-Cuda
 
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Angry multiplayer is absolutly disgusting now

last night i was on a server, and there were the usual backstabbers who topped the scores. but then one guy came on who had seemed to make a script that would turn 180 degrees, hit attack, then turn back around with the single push of a button. this allowed him to use the backwards heavy slash while he was facing you. and since scripts execute their commands so fast, you couldn't even see him turn around at all.

this made me leave the server in disgust. not only did he have no trouble getting the top score every map with this tactic, he won every duel as well, since the heavy backwards slash kills in one hit and is unblockable

MP is a disgrace now. i've never been as annoyed at a game as i was last night. Raven went and turned the best online game i have ever played into the dumbest

lets all go make scripts so the game is a cakewalk


p.s. sorry for the whinning type post, but this really pisses me off. i had so much fun playing the game before the 1.03 patch, and even a bit after before the backwards swing was known. but now its impossible for me to find a fun game (even duel servers are full of these types of lamers)
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:03 AM   #2
Tummy
 
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Yeah i think the whole pull backswing of any type is kinda gay and unbalancing lets just hope that raven fixes it
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:04 AM   #3
G0G0GadgetForce
 
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Hey man I understand what you mean but don't start the scripts are for kids crap. If you blew off a few fingers you might see a good use for scripts and binds.

The real solution isn't to nerf the back slash either.

The solution is to create a counter attack or vulnerability for every major force and move! Why the game designers havn't done this is unforgivable.

BTW-If a patch comes out that actually does this I will buy the game and purchase GameCommander2. This is a voice recognition program. Instead of playing keyboard gymnastics, I say push and I force push. I say mind trick, and he doesn't see me. I'll leave my fingers (or the ones I have left) to moving my character and clicking the mouse. I think 5 fingures and 2 thumbs should do it.
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:28 AM   #4
KnightHawk420
 
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Go back to 1.02 and I'll show you how you can be raped just the same with the backstab.

It was a problem then, it's a problem now. And yes it needs to be resolved.
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:31 AM   #5
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Quote:
multiplayer is absolutly disgusting now
your mother is absolutely distgusting now... oh wait
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:31 AM   #6
Hemi-Cuda
 
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i never said scripts are for kiddies. i myself have spent a lot of time creating custom ones that do everything from toggle between gamma settings for different maps to give me rainbow rail colors for Q3

whats gay is when scripts give an easy way to make the game really stupid, like the backslash one. a script like that turns an already lame attack into an utterly disgusting one

i personally have sworn off JK2 entirely until a new patch comes out to address some of this bull****, which i hate to do

Rocket Arena 3 is again the only game i play now
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Old 05-15-2002, 12:28 PM   #7
Silent Wolf
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im glad you dont like the game anymore, one less n00b


I sense you...Jedi!!!
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Old 05-15-2002, 12:36 PM   #8
JediKnight Dave
 
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you people stfu i agree with his post. you guys are noobs who like to ruin a good game with this ****. You flame people because you at last can win at the game using cheap tatics. f off
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Old 05-15-2002, 12:44 PM   #9
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The funny thing about backstab = in an email from a dev in another post in this forum the dev says it was an 'oversight' that backstab damage wasn't changed when all other saber damage was reduced.

So, you could call the backstab move an unintended result in gameplay by the devs. in other words, an exploit.

I don't really care about the move, I can counter it with moderate success- my problem is that since autoblock/damage reduction and the changes in damage based on where you are in a swing backstabbers are 3x harder to kill making it 3x easier for them to preform this lame move OVER AND OVER.


"The King is gone but he's not forgotten. This is the story of Johny Rotten."
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Old 05-15-2002, 12:45 PM   #10
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just to understand...

To silent wolf...


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Old 05-15-2002, 12:52 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Demise_SOK
The funny thing about backstab = in an email from a dev in another post in this forum the dev says it was an 'oversight' that backstab damage wasn't changed when all other saber damage was reduced.

So, you could call the backstab move an unintended result in gameplay by the devs. in other words, an exploit.

I don't really care about the move, I can counter it with moderate success- my problem is that since autoblock/damage reduction and the changes in damage based on where you are in a swing backstabbers are 3x harder to kill making it 3x easier for them to preform this lame move OVER AND OVER.
See the whole "3x harder" to kill is my problem with this patch, primarily. The saber was the right strength in the original game. Had DFA been modified as it HAS BEEN, and this backstab modified like the DFA, with everything else left alone, I think almost everyone would be happy with the sabers.
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Old 05-15-2002, 12:59 PM   #12
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The problem isn't that the backstab is too powerful, its that all the other moves have been made nearly impotent. If there were other moves that were actually viable tactically, then people would use them. Unfortunately, there aren't. The game revolves, as I state in my guides, around Push/Pull Backstab. There are no other strategies that can even approach the effectiveness of this combo.

I liken this to taking one of the old Street Fighter II games and allowing the Ryu character to do normal damage, but nerfing all others so that they only do 10% of normal. Result: everybody who wants to win plays Ryu.

Prediction: Raven will nerf all backstab/sweep moves and thus make duels last 10 times longer so that you have to wait 30 min. between duels in an 8 person duel server.


Artifex *ASC*
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Old 05-15-2002, 01:02 PM   #13
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Old 05-15-2002, 01:07 PM   #14
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Im not trying to say im a know it all but both patches have +'s and -'s.
I say bring back dfa ( with the turn )so when pull and backstab doesnt work you pull and get dfa'ed
When you turn your back there should be a one hit head attack ( executioner style counter) so if he misses you can one hit kill- counter. Now I know not many people miss when they have practiced this extremly annoying move.
But its a start and not a flame. We need ideas to pass along to Raven.
Another idea you should still be able to push while on the ground
A true "jedi" can focus and use his powers in any situation (e.g., Luke in the swamps of dehgobah(sp?) uses push/pull while handstanding with yoda on one foot) for true realism ( or movie action) this is not a bad idea imho.


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Old 05-15-2002, 01:12 PM   #15
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See the whole "3x harder" to kill is my problem with this patch, primarily. The saber was the right strength in the original game. Had DFA been modified as it HAS BEEN, and this backstab modified like the DFA, with everything else left alone, I think almost everyone would be happy with the sabers.


Right on. I agree 100% and I would bet that 50% or more of the die-hard saber only players would too.


Like a midget at urinal , I had better be on my toes.
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Old 05-15-2002, 01:13 PM   #16
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What I don't get...

Is why would you reduce the damage a lightsaber does? Gui-Gon can make it melt a blast door, which means, if it touches you, you are either dead, or you are losing a limb. Why reduce it?

Saber users had enough trouble trying to get kills before the patch, now you add this one shot deal which is the only attack worth using apparently and it takes every ounce of skill away from saber fighting.

PS. Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A Select Start
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Old 05-15-2002, 01:19 PM   #17
BlackDove
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Skyw@lker


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
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Old 05-15-2002, 01:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Prediction: Raven will nerf all backstab/sweep moves and thus make duels last 10 times longer so that you have to wait 30 min. between duels in an 8 person duel server.
Damn I hope not. That would totally suck.

I played this one dude where all he would do is pull knockdown and backstab. Yes this is an effective move and I use it myself sometimes to surprise people but those who use it all the time or walk around "ass fighting" are just dumb n00bs.

I was able to beat him every time because I knewn exactly what he was going to do by using this technique:

1) fast stance
2) stand still or walk toward him always directly facing him
3) as soon as he gets close forward lunge special attack
4) throw saber if his saber gets parried (is that how you say it?)
5) repeat from step 2

This won't work against skilled players that vary their attacks often but against n00bs that do the pull backstab most of the time this worked wonders for me.

Also if you do get pulled down try to get up quickly by pressing attack and then try to kick as you get up by pressing foward and double tap the kick button.
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Old 05-15-2002, 01:34 PM   #19
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Prediction: Raven will nerf all backstab/sweep moves and thus make duels last 10 times longer so that you have to wait 30 min. between duels in an 8 person duel server.
OH YEAH, HELL YEAH...

I HOPE that happenes...


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
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Old 05-15-2002, 01:41 PM   #20
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On a few exceptions, this thread is extremely stupid. It contains no usefull information and it even includes something that I actually find offensive. Please, no more talk about America and their "war against terror". I don't want to hear anything about it.
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Old 05-15-2002, 02:03 PM   #21
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I played against someone last nite who used this tactic (on a NF FFA server, with Throw disabled too).

No scripts on my end, just practice and a lil thinking ahead. I'm no where near being one of the top players, I just have fun and keep my head.

I've found that constant movement is the key against this script. Strike, move. Stike, move. Triple Stong combos seem to interupt the animation, so they can't land the hit, or don't land it clean.

Someone runs towards me ass-first, I strafe to the side and either drop a DFA on 'em, or hit them with a mid-air Blue forward lunge. Another thing I'll do is jump-flip over them in Blue, and hit 'em with my own backstab when I land.

Personally, I enjoy the challenge of beating someone either 'ass-fighting' or using a script to do the sweep.

In FF servers, I use Absorb and DFA when someone is a pull fiend. The other nite, a guy was calling me a n00b for taking him out with this. My response was, "I'm a n00b but you're still dead. Explain...."
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Old 05-15-2002, 02:18 PM   #22
w1ggl3s
 
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Raven needs to make every backstab like the Blue backstab

DONT change the lethality of it. Its a finishing move.

However change the "run into crowds backwards sweeping as many people dead as you can" tactics



Backstab needs to be just light the light backstab and everything would be fine
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Old 05-15-2002, 02:48 PM   #23
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Quote:
Raven needs to make every backstab like the Blue backstab
I disagree, the sweeping style of the medium backslash should remain, but the damage should be gradient, so that players hit immediately behind you (that would've been hit by light backstab) should get full damage, as the players are hit further to either side of the slash, the damage should reduce dramatically.

I mainly say this because it would be a shame for the graphical style to be sacrificed.

Anyway, I always incorporated the back slash moves (light and medium, anyway) into my playing,. along with many other moves.. I'm not going to stop because of a patch.

If all you people who scorn these, and other, tactics were obeyed, there would be hardly any moves left to use in the game.

I'm not accusing all of you of this, but part of me suspects that the increasing amount of 'unspoken rules' is being used mainly for Noob persecution.
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Old 05-15-2002, 03:22 PM   #24
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LMFAO!

Hey I'm sure glad I didnt buy this stupid game seeing that saber fighting is a joke with or without the patch. Just use my money for q4 or sof2 and not worry being backstabbed HAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Old 05-15-2002, 03:47 PM   #25
C'jais
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tekken
My response was, "I'm a n00b but you're still dead. Explain...."
I don't know how u fight or what your philosophy is on skill, but u sure do sound like an idiot i met online a few days ago...

He claimed that "winning is skill". No more, no less. BTW, I asked him because he seemed to support a player who used nothing but light lunge and *sigh*... "backstab", with the occasional regular swing.

Now, do all of u people believe that if somehow the developers added a BFG from q2 or something similar, and using it solely to kill people with, then that said player using it would be very skillful indeed? Or what if some player used a cheat, where he simply typed "K" and then won the game?

Or what if a player used every special move in the game, with moderation, employed all the stances, rarely got hit because of his lightning reflexes and had a sixth sense of where his opponent would strike?

Or what if some player comes along who ONLY thought of his own score, not his enjoyment or others, but ONLY his score. That player only knew only 2-3 moves in the game which he had developed to such a degree that he could kill anyone who was foolish enough to stand in the way of his preprogrammed step-by-step fighting system. This player could not adapt to any new situation or vary his attacks at all, and so got brutally slaughtered by another player who learned from his mistakes and wiped his arse with a pink lightsaber.

What is SKILL? What is fair play?

Backstab as it is now is a joke, a bug, a mistake.... an exploit.
No more, no less.

Backstab should be used in those rare occurences where you find yourself with your back to your opponent. The so called "arse mastas" running around backwards trying to hit something they can't see are spoiling the fun for me. This can sadly be done because some developer thought it could be fun if players could block attacks coming from behind by some pure f*cking magic. Assmasters shouldn't be able to do this, it's pure logic. And the term is wrong as well: last i checked, a "backstab" is where you strike the BACK of your opponent who has his BACK turned towards your FRONT. Not the other way around. Please correct me if i'm wrong, english is not my first language.

Thus, i propose they add a new move to the game: the forward stab. This is a quick direct jab forward with your lightsaber just like the blue "backstab", but directly in front. This move could be easily blocked, and the animation takes as long as say, the new DFA, so the defenders could simply block it, sidestep and strike their attacker. It could, however, be used to quickly strike your enemy if he has your back turned to you, of if he spams the strong stance without thought. And it shouldn't deal an insane amount of damage either.

I take playing multiplayer as seriously as playing any other sport. If you met a footballplayer or golfplayer who misbehaved and played unfairly, kicked his opponents if the game was going against him etc, wouldn't you guys react offensively? I would, and I do. Contrary to what many people say, you CAN misbehave in a multiplayer game, and there ARE cheap moves.

This is my opinion, flame me to hell and back if you like.
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Old 05-15-2002, 03:51 PM   #26
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On a few exceptions, this thread is extremely stupid. It contains no usefull information and it even includes something that I actually find offensive. Please, no more talk about America and their "war against terror". I don't want to hear anything about it.
One--what, exactly are you talking about I seriously just went through this thread three times and couldn't find that to which you refer...could you quote it for me?...

Two--don't read it if you don't want to hear anything about it. You read the title--you knew what you were getting into.


Vestril was here!!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:00 PM   #27
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to have only said one sentance you sure did "gleam" alot from that veslex, you sad sad human being. I stick by my comment, this guy IS n00b and so are his supporters.

DISMISSED


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Old 05-15-2002, 04:02 PM   #28
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o==8

Yeah, take that in your mouth, 'cause that's all that's going to result from your whining.
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:06 PM   #29
Vestril
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Quote:
Originally posted by Owen Yu
o==8

Yeah, take that in your mouth, 'cause that's all that's going to result from your whining.
Precedence shows that this is not the case. Raven catered to the most vocal people when they released 1.03... it stands to reason that they would do things this way again.


Vestril was here!!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:13 PM   #30
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still doesnt explain why people lose sleep of a game, of any type.
i think it goes back to the way our society functions, basically people feel everything must exist to fullfill there own inate desires. Personally i hate movie critics because i really dont care what someone thinks about a movie as long as i like it. Same goes for anything else. And if i dont like something, oh well onto the next. I guess i can understand being turned off when people change something you immensly like, for me that was cs, i was great at it, loved it and they changed it drastically. My comment/response, stopped playing. I didnt lose much sleep over it because i didnt create the game, i just enjoyed it. People act like the game companies owe them there first born just because they paid for a product. My thought on it is, sure i paid for what "they" gave me. If i dont like it, thats my problem, not theirs. I didnt ask for a patch for jk2, but i sure as hell got one, and i feel the fact that raven was considerate enough to try and enhance the game,then ill be considerate enough to get with the program or get out.

nuff said,
-wolf


I sense you...Jedi!!!
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:16 PM   #31
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Hey Silent Wolf...I'm back (if you remember me at all).

I don't have this game yet so I can't voice my opinion. I'm gonna say right now, whining isn't gonna do ANYTHING. Look at all these stinkin threads. Do you think we need another about this? If your mad go post in one of the hundreds of others. All the threads might as well have the same subject line.


All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost

Strider
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:17 PM   #32
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uh, yeah whatever. People hate critics and then post their thoughts thus in essence being a critic. Then there are those that whine about "whiners". I would think that if u really thought that way u wouldn't post at all and be busy playing the game.
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:19 PM   #33
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hey strider,
good to see a friendly face, im living in troll hell.

stop by irc sometime #jediknight


I sense you...Jedi!!!
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:34 PM   #34
C'jais
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I don't know if you guys are referring to my whining, but basically, this is what a game forum is for. Whining, complaining, voicing your opinion, sharing the love of the game, comment on playing the game etc.... it's all in a game forum, and you can't do much about it.

But this community sure is one of the most offensive, complaining and self-destructive I have ever laid eyes on. And you seem to attract the most ignorant, immature posters of all time, but that's probably just because of the starwars aspect.

Whining and complaining GETS you somewhere, but only if done in a civil, behaved, relaxed and constructive manner.

What i mean is that its not just enough to say that you are against this, this and this, but you also have to mention that you are FOR, and support this, this and this, and the game would be better if we replaced this with this. I know many do this, but at the same time, this forum has a TON who don't.

And please, quote the poster you are referring to, so I don't have to be confused finding another poster you guys hate.
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:45 PM   #35
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Quote:
but basically, this is what a game forum is for. Whining, complaining, voicing your opinion, sharing the love of the game, comment on playing the game etc.... it's all in a game forum, and you can't do much about it.

You sir have it backwards, forums are for intelectually expressing ideas in a non-combative manner. I nor anyone else has any problem with a good debate, however posts such as "This game0rz sux0rz" or "omfg patch is the ghey!" coupled with poorly written debates are grounds for punishment. The forums were not always like this belive me, they were kinder, and a hell of a lot smarter. However, like all popular things in life comes the advent of the bandwagon jumpers, they are here to stay more or less, i just dont mind making them feel unwelcome.

As a final thought, intelligent posts are welcomed and encouraged, even if a person disagrees they are more likely to support your idea or give you the time of day if it doesnt include profanity, simplistic thoughts, or blatent negativity. Because really, who likes people who are negative anyways?

-Wolf


I sense you...Jedi!!!
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Old 05-15-2002, 04:48 PM   #36
Vestril
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Quote:
My comment/response, stopped playing. I didnt lose much sleep over it because didnt create the game, i just enjoyed it. People act like the game companies owe them there first born just because they paid for a product. My thought on it is, sure i paid for what "they" gave me. If i dont like it, thats my problem, not theirs. I didnt ask for a patch for jk2, but i sure as hell got one, and i feel the fact that raven was considerate enough to try and enhance the game,then ill be considerate enough to get with the program or get out.
I disagree with that concept. I paid for a game that had acertain sort of flow and dynamic to it. There are some people who put a lot of research into the game beforehand, to see to it that they bought a game worth playing. By changing the game around drastically, in the first patch, Raven kind of gave the finger to all the people who spent time looking into the game, and to the people who were enjoying the game as it was.

They rushed to patch the game, and though I applaud their willingness to attempt at support, it was a poor attempt. I think that they should have trusted there QA people, who must have been satisfied with the game when they released it, rather than taking the advice of virtually all of the most vocal complainers. Rather than releasing the changes subtly, one patch at a time, or taking the time to put some thought into the patch, they pushed it out as quickly as possible.

I suppose it makes a certain amount of sense to change the game quickly, if you're going to change it--that way people don't get too settled into their routines, but I think they could have released a much more balanced and fun patch if they had waited another month.

Yes, they tried to enhance the game--but they haven't finished at that yet, and if they think they have, and this winds up as the last patch, I will seriously reevaluate Raven as a company.


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Old 05-15-2002, 04:50 PM   #37
Vestril
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silent Wolf
im glad you dont like the game anymore, one less n00b
Yes Wolf, I see your point, intelligent, well thought out posts are the way to go

--Edit--
I mean...if you had posted that like a month ago, I wouldn't be complaining, but you posted it something like 4 hours ago, and then proceeded to harp on trolls. I suggest you take your own advice.


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Old 05-15-2002, 04:55 PM   #38
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Re: just to understand...

Quote:
Originally posted by Verlex
To silent wolf...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STANDARD IDIOT REPLY FORM ( version 1.1.2 )
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(check all boxes that apply)
Directed to:

[ ] Llama
[ ] Clueless Newbie
[ ] Lamer
[ ] Flamer
[ ] "Me too"-er
[ ] Pervert
[ ] Geek
[ ] Spammer
[ ] Racist
[ ] Freak
[ ] Troller
[ ] Fundamentalist
[ ] Satanist
[ ] "Expert"
[ ] Pool of Slime
[ ] Redneck
[ ] Shameless Punk
[ ] Twit
[ ] Wannabe
[ ] Dumbass
[ ] Waste of Skin
[x] Other: "your a n00b!"er

You Are Being Flamed Because:

[ ] You obviously don't know anything about the topic at hand
[ ] You posted a ?False Advertisement? post.
[ ] You posted something involving legal crap.
[ ] You quoted an ENTIRE post in your reply
[ ] You started a long, stupid thread
[ ] You continued spreading a long, stupid thread
[ ] Your lack of understanding of the fundamentals is disgusting
[ ] You posted a racist message
[ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
[x] You posted low-IQ flamebait
[ ] You posted a blatantly obvious troll
[ ] You followed up to a blatantly obvious troll
[ ] You said "X rules, Y sucks" and gave no support for your lame statement
[ ] You said "me too" to something
[ ] You make no sense
[ ] You made a post yet failed to say anything
[ ] Your sig/alias/server is dreadful
[ ] Your post contained nothing but psycho-babble.
[ ] You are claiming that you know more than Newton, Ohm, Pavlov, etc.
[ ] Your margin settings (or lack of) make your post unreadable
[ ] You made a baseless assertion
[ ] You posted SCREAMING in RANDOM CAPS (OR IN ALL CAPS) for NO APPARENT REASON
[ ] YoU tYpEd SoMeThInG lAmE lIkE tHiS
[x] You say your ?L33t liek ae n00b.?, Or your spelling is so bad that no one can read it.
[ ] Your a heartless, braindead waste of space.
[ ] You claim the US is a big bully trying to take on "poor innocent little countries/people"
[ ] You support the terrorist actions
[ ] You support the Islamic Extremists and their "Holy War"
[ ] You support the Taliban.
[x] You didn't do anything specific, but appear to be so generally worthless that you are being flamed anyway.
[ ] You posted an off-topic thread on the wrong board.
[ ] You can't spell worth beans.
[ ] The world would be better off with people like you NOT in it.

To Repent, You Must:

[ ] Refrain from posting until you have a vague idea what you're doing
[x] Read every group you posted to for a week
[x] Give up your AOL account
[x] Bust up your modem with a hammer and eat it
[x] Tell your Mommy to up your medication
[x] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor (monitor must be plugged in)
[x] Actually post something relevant
[ ] Read and memorize the FAQ
[x] Print your home phone number in your ads
[x] Be the guest of honor in alt.flame for a month
[x] Never have children.
[x] Drive off a cliff.
In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

[ ] Get a clue
[ ] Get a life
[ ] Go away
[ ] Grow up
[x] Never post again
[x] I pity your dog
[ ] You need to seek psychiatric help
[ ] Morons like you give ammo to pro-censorship morons
[ ] Take your gibberish somewhere else
[ ] Go back to school and actually learn something
[x] Learn how to post or get off the site

[ ] All of the above
HAHAHAH this is too funny!!!

//me steals form!

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Old 05-15-2002, 04:58 PM   #39
Dace
 
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Quote:
forums are for intelectually expressing ideas in a non-combative manner. I nor anyone else has any problem with a good debate, however posts such as "This game0rz sux0rz" or "omfg patch is the ghey!" coupled with poorly written debates are grounds for punishment
uhh, didn't u just post "im glad you dont like the game anymore, one less n00b". Or are there extinuating circumstances that i'm not aware of? A clause of some sort? Maybe u have to be in a special club that has a secret decoder ring in order to be allowed to post like that and then say other people shouldn't?
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Old 05-15-2002, 05:06 PM   #40
C'jais
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silent Wolf



You sir have it backwards, forums are for intelectually expressing ideas in a non-combative manner. I nor anyone else has any problem with a good debate, however posts such as "This game0rz sux0rz" or "omfg patch is the ghey!" coupled with poorly written debates are grounds for punishment.

As a final thought, intelligent posts are welcomed and encouraged, even if a person disagrees they are more likely to support your idea or give you the time of day if it doesnt include profanity, simplistic thoughts, or blatent negativity. Because really, who likes people who are negative anyways?

-Wolf
Pardon me, but i can't really see why i have it backwards. Did you read everything i wrote? I say "whiners, complainers" because you people seem to think that everyone who dislikes something is per se a "whiner". Then, i continued to say that i like the people that posts constructive criticism and well thought out posts.

What my point was, is that a game forum can't be rid of "whiners" = people who dislike certain aspects of a game and voice their opinion out loud(preferably in a constructive manner) I think i got that quite clear in my post.

I can't, however, see you point other than that you agree completely with me.
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