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Old 05-15-2002, 08:51 PM   #1
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Baby's First Steps: The Ice Cave

I had this great idea for a duel map: the duellers get dropped into an ice cave. So you've got twisty floors, stalagtites and stalagmites (some breakable?) and some impromptu lights stuck to the walls.

I've done some preliminary work, mostly on using the 'simple patch mesh' method of terrain creation. Here are some screenshots of the little I've done so far:

Test Shot 1

Test Shot 2

Test Shot 3

Test Shot 4

This terrain method is a little hit-and-miss. Anyone got any better ways or tricks to use?
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Old 05-15-2002, 09:04 PM   #2
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Looks good... the key to an ice cave will be making it look natural... random humps of snow and such that have no apparent pattern.

You might even have a hidden jedi temple filled partly with snow (blocking off some areas) that part of it could be in... or maybe the entrance to a jedi temple covered with snow? So you could duel on the snow covered steps or further away from it in the cave...

Just ideas.


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Old 05-15-2002, 10:45 PM   #3
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those ideas sound really cool and i agree have a partly snowed in Jedi Temple
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Old 05-16-2002, 06:42 AM   #4
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Hmmmm.... Good ideas there.

My original idea was just to have a cave the duellists were somehow lowered down into through a hole in the ceiling (loooong hole, no jumping out!).

But instead, now this: A cave set into a cliff, the duellists blocked in by a forcefield; a big cave with rolling floors and ceilings spiky with stalagtites and stalagmites (some breakable) with a small, half-buried Jedi temple at the other end.

Sounds a bit more interesting, yes?
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Old 05-16-2002, 07:02 AM   #5
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OOH You could half both of the player spawns be above ground with an auto-opening door that whisks them into a series of snowy chutes (slick texture) down into the main area!

Damn, I should stop giving you ideas, I almost want to make this myself now.

But yes! Very good ideas!

Make the snow look natural and blend the temple in well enough and that would be a very good map indeed.


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Old 05-16-2002, 11:03 AM   #6
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I'll give the chutes some thought, once I've experimented with them a bit....

Otherwise, yeah, sounds great!
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Old 05-16-2002, 11:48 AM   #7
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I would like to issue a little constructive criticism. The shots you showed looked like a square room with piles of snow in it. You really need to ditch the corners as it kills the illusion of a natural cave. I would make it multi-leveled too if you can pull it off.

Or better yet, a small outside portion with a cave enterance, a medium sized enterance cave with 3-4 tunnels leading to one large main cave filled with stalactites and stalagmites.


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-16-2002, 01:23 PM   #8
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Yeah, I know. It's just a test at the moment, for perfecting the lumpy snow effect. I'll deal with the harsh corners when I do the real thing.

How about several levels/rooms, separated by slippery tunnels that force the duellists down to the lowest level, where the temple/shrine is?
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Old 05-16-2002, 02:18 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by RelFexive
Yeah, I know. It's just a test at the moment, for perfecting the lumpy snow effect. I'll deal with the harsh corners when I do the real thing.

How about several levels/rooms, separated by slippery tunnels that force the duellists down to the lowest level, where the temple/shrine is?
If you could pull that off, that would be slick.

Sorry, I couldnt help myself. But I do like the idea of slick surfaces. Especially with the shrine at the bottom of it all. It would kinda be kool to have someone encased in ice somewhere on the level too. Just for the look of it. Maybe Dessan...


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-16-2002, 05:14 PM   #10
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For a really cool effect (if you want to create a damn nice effect), you could even try putting in brushes against a wall of ice to make the effect of a fossil of some sort of ancient hoth beast...

And if you want to try to "force" duelists to the lowest level, you're going to need to make sure that both duelist can pretty much always see each other on each level, otherwise one may drop down and the other won't know it.

The excitement of a duel might be cut off when one of them has to say "Uh hey... I dropped down another level."


There are three things that I paricularly hate: kids, animals, and women with attitudes.

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Old 05-16-2002, 11:37 PM   #11
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everyones idea are really good and if Relfexive does alot of them : )
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Old 05-17-2002, 09:46 AM   #12
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I'll do my best. It is the first map I've ever really done, after all.

Nothing like a challenge....
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Old 05-17-2002, 07:25 PM   #13
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I've done a bit more work on it....

Test Shot 2.01

Test Shot 2.02

Test Shot 2.03

Test Shot 2.04

Test Shot 2.05

Test Shot 2.06

The sliding tube/tunnel was a serious bitch to figure out and get working, but I got the hang of it in the end....

I'm not really sure about the floor and ceiling. They seem a bit off to me.

The forcefield barring exit from the cave can be walked through at the moment. Anyone spot any threads/know any tutorials that tells me how to set up a proper, reflects blasters type forcefield?
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Old 05-17-2002, 09:56 PM   #14
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Oh pfft, you don't need a forcefield... just make it the side of a giant snowy mountain where you can fall to your doom!


There are three things that I paricularly hate: kids, animals, and women with attitudes.

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Old 05-18-2002, 12:54 AM   #15
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That map looks so simple but i'll bet it's not. That just seems like it would be so fun. I can't wait to play it.
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Old 05-18-2002, 06:23 PM   #16
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It was a bit of a trick getting the hang of making the tunnel, I can tell you....

I need to add, sculpt and connect a few more rooms (another three?) and put the temple/shrine in the bottom.

And I might add the cliff face outside too....

And I'll experiment with monster 'fossils'....

I'm not sure how to add a frozen Desann, though.... Anyone got any ideas?
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Old 05-18-2002, 06:58 PM   #17
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this sounds really cool lol i wanna play on it how far done is this like 40% 60%? lol ahhh i can't wait anymore lol
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Old 05-18-2002, 09:57 PM   #18
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You've seen the second set of screenshots? Just that room so far I think it needs another four chambers, the last with the temple/shrine at the end of it. The lower rooms should be easier, as I think I'll be sticking to curved floors with lumps and spikes on instead of the 'terrain floor' of the topmost room.

I've got quite a ways to go, mostly because I'm still perfecting my techniques (such as they are) and learning as I go. So it will take some time.

Questions That Need Answers:

1. How would I add a Desann to this MP level, just to stand still 'frozen' in a block of 'ice'?

2. How the frell do you do fog? If I can't get it to work I'll have to resort to using the 'forcefield stops you getting outside' trick instead.
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Old 05-20-2002, 09:17 PM   #19
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Okay.

No word on the Desann-icle yet, but I have made some inroads on the fog to create my exterior canyon....

Test Shot 3.01

Test Shot 3.02

Test Shot 3.03

Test Shot 3.04

Test Shot 3.05

What do you think?
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Old 05-20-2002, 11:03 PM   #20
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it looks very good so far good job on that
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Old 05-21-2002, 01:41 AM   #21
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Well, if the only problem with the forcefield is being able to walk through it, you could just put a thin clip brush in front of it. As for being able to reflect shots, there are some forcefieldy (yes, that's a word) shaders in a few of the texture sets that are solid and reflect energy projectiles. I don't remember exactly where, but check the imperial sets and doomgiver, there'll probably be some there, though in the editor they often look like the default checkered pattern.

On the other hand, if you could make one of your snowbanks into a func_door just above the cave entrance, you could have it collapse on anyone who tries to leave. It would make it seem more like you were inside an unstable cave if you pulled it off right. I think you'd need to set the speed high, set the crusher flag and give it a high dmg value, and probably set it to start open with the angle set to stright up. But that's just my three cents (inflation).


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Where's this handbasket going anyway?
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Old 05-21-2002, 06:59 AM   #22
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I'm not really concerned about blocking the entrance now as I've sorted out the cliff + fog problems I was having.

As an addition, I was thinking of adding a few of the small skiffs from Nar Shadda and have them floating out of jump range around the canyon.

As for the aforementioned Desann-icle, I'll post a thread about it....
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Old 05-21-2002, 02:20 PM   #23
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here is another idea that fixed my fog sky prob
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...950#post558950


-VIO
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Old 05-22-2002, 06:43 AM   #24
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Here's some more pics dealing with the lighting....

Test Shot 4.01

Test Shot 4.02

Test Shot 4.03

I might retry spotlights again, but they did not look right before.
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Old 05-22-2002, 05:03 PM   #25
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Hmm... don't use light entities... you should make those lights into simple light-emitting shaders to make it look better.


There are three things that I paricularly hate: kids, animals, and women with attitudes.

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Old 05-22-2002, 06:01 PM   #26
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I liked the first screens that you released on this post the best of all. I would just keep it like that except make it larger. Just my opinion.
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Old 05-22-2002, 06:57 PM   #27
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So how do you do that, RichDiesal? I'm not much cop with shaders yet.
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Old 05-22-2002, 10:11 PM   #28
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yo dude your map looks sweet so far!!!

this is just a crazy suggestion, but you should place luke skywalker upside down on the ceiling like at the begining of ESB

that would be cool


I don't believe it...

That is why you fail - Yoda
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Old 05-23-2002, 01:57 AM   #29
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Yeah, if you could, do the Luke hanging upside-down and your other idea of Desann frozen in ice. Those would be sweet.
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Old 05-23-2002, 02:22 AM   #30
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It's really not too difficult... but more difficult than I can explain in a few secs.

Basically, you need to make a second jpg the same size as the JPG you want lit... make the entire jpg black... then make the areas equivalent to the ones that you want lit in the first image white.

THEN find a light-emitting shader script in imperial.shader or bespin.shader and copy the script into your own shader file... adding the name of your shader file to your shaderlist.txt.

It's really difficult for me to explain because I just screwed around until I figured it all out, but there are several shader tutorials out there that you could use.


There are three things that I paricularly hate: kids, animals, and women with attitudes.

http://richdiesal.jedioutcastmaps.com - Map Showcase and Tutorials!
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Old 05-23-2002, 07:06 AM   #31
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It looks good, but you should have the light sources coming from multicolored icecicles...

You are losing the "natural look". Unless of course that's what you wanted...


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-23-2002, 08:23 AM   #32
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Lights = very very unpleasant. When I first saw those things I thought they were flashy, temporary, lights (I just slap light entities down) Needed:

1. Shader lights

Defiantly, no ifs buts or maybes


2. ICE

Not completely necessary and probably a head ache. You'll need to work out how to make translucent shaders, and get a texture that works... Have you got Counter-Strike? Theres a level called DE_Survivor in there with ice that only has a few problems. As I said ice will be a headache, or at least it would for me if I was gonna try it. Ten Tigers mentioned putting lights in ice, could be very VERY sweet.

Good Luck
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Old 05-23-2002, 08:25 AM   #33
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Looks good, one recommendation I'd make is thus:

Your floor looks great and natural, the walls and the ceiling though look like they're patch meshes coming off of a square wall. Which also takes away from the natural look of the floor as well.

Try this, this is long, but it will give you a much more naturally looking room, there's examples at the bottom if it gets confusing:

(And I'm not talking down to you if you know the hotkey for the clip tool and what not, just pointing it out for completenesses sake. )

I'd recommend you do this with all walls and possibly the ceiling if you're not gonna do a patch mesh off of the entirety of it but I'm gonna use the example of just one wall with your patch meshed floor. Take a wall and clone it then put it flush with the true wall (Or you could just make them the wall either or, but it's easier to just do this and shrink in the edges to insure you don't have leaks, you can just caulk the back walls afterwards)

Now, extend this cloned wall a good distance into the room. Now, change your x/y view to a side view, and select the wall and the floor patch mesh so you can see how high your patch mesh floor comes on the walls. Now, use your clip tool (x default) and draw a line where the highest point on your patch mesh rises to vertically (Remember you're in side view). Now, clip it, this will remove the lower part of your cloned wall, and insure that your patch mesh which extends to the true wall isn't interfered with. If you kept the edge vertices of your patch mesh all on the same z plane then you can clip right down to it and it'll look much more natural, if not, no biggie.

Ok, now you have the cloned wall that is up above your floor patch mesh. Take that and cut it up into as many as you want. Use shift + enter as you clip and you'll split them into multiple brushes, more than a few is overkill, but get as detailed as you want, this looks like a pretty small room so it shouldn't be a big issue.

Now, take one of those, and clip them up from different views (control+ tab) scale your clips inward to give a smooth look, if you keep doing that on all edges you'll eventually get something that resembles a somewhat smooth face (not as nice as a patch mesh but isn't as poly intensive either.)

From there you can leave those there, or... you can clip them inward rounded and leave a flat plane at the end, and you can extend a patch mesh off of that for flavor.

Here take a look at these two examples:
http://www.tribalpharmacy.com//Hubstuff/meshclip1.jpg
http://www.tribalpharmacy.com//Hubstuff/meshclip2.jpg

When you clip into that flat area keep your grid high so it's easy to stretch a patch mesh to cover the entirety of it and you'll have a very smooth transition from a semi rounded brush to a gorgeous mesh. (Note I didn't stretch the mesh to the flat area in that example, but it's very easy to do if you keep your grid high. I also made a few other mistakes like some duplicate planes, but you get the idea. )

You could also just clip the edges of those off into random points heading out and have some nice rocky crags extending out from the walls.
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Old 05-23-2002, 08:35 AM   #34
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I should also mention, when/if you apply that to all four walls, remember you can select multiple brushes when you clip, so it's ok if the crags coming off of the walls overlap initially (it will actually look more natural if they do) because you can just select the ones bordering each other, and then swap to the overhead view, select both, and then clip down the line where you want your centerpoint to be, hit shift + enter and then deselect the brushes you want to keep, then hit backspace. That will leave the brushes appear to be overlapping, while removing the excess that was there. The end result to that would be a great room with natural walls forming together in the center.

You could also try thin at the bottom getting wider as you head up if you opt not to extend a mesh off of them.

And PS, your map looks great as I said, I wouldn't have typed out all of that above if I didn't think it would help ya along. My first project was a natural looking map too, and it's by far one of the hardest to do, if you wanna keep performance it then becomes even harder.
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Old 05-23-2002, 08:49 AM   #35
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Okay. All good points and helpful thingies.

A: The lights are currently being altered to be illuminating shader surfaces instead of light entities. They look a bit rough at the mo but I'm learning.... I may put up some shots when I get the opportunity.

B: The 'natural look' is only really intended to extend to the structure of the cave itself. The lights are supposed to have been added by the people who go there to duel.

C: Yes, Hubris, the ceiling and walls are patch meshes, as is the floor I'll review your technique later and see if I can get the hang of it. Clip tool? It's just a button I've not used to me, so don't be afraid to instruct me on it's use

Thanks all.
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Old 05-23-2002, 08:54 AM   #36
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The clip tool is the most useful tool in Radiant in my opinion. Once you get the hang of it you'll be making stuff that takes your breath away, more importantly you'll be doing it in ten minutes instead of hours. Those four brushes I used in my example took me about three minutes to do, if I were to use an edging tool on a 20 faced brush or another technique to elicit that effect, even a patch mesh, it would take for friggin' ever.

Try here for a good tutorial on clip basics.

http://fps.brainerd.net/clipping.htm
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Old 05-23-2002, 09:50 AM   #37
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It all sounds very complex at the moment, but then I don't have JKradient open infront of me; I'm at work.

When I get home I'll give it a go and let you know how I get on.

Ditto on the shader lights front.
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Old 05-27-2002, 09:07 PM   #38
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Okay, here's some more:

Test Shot 6.01

Test Shot 6.02

Test Shot 6.03

Test Shot 6.04

The lights are shaders, and you can see those skiffs I mentioned (complete with sound).

I'm currently reworking the 'terrain' of the first room and I'll put more up once I get further with it....
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Old 05-28-2002, 12:20 AM   #39
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Your latest shots are a little dark. I can't tell what I'm looking at. The first one was good and the map looked sweet in that shot.
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Old 05-28-2002, 06:55 AM   #40
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Shot #2 is basically the other side of the arch leading out to the cliff Kyle is standing in in #1; there is another light below the one seen on the far wall. In shot #3 Kyle is standing on that other light looking up and right to the upper skiff, which has it's own light. Shot #4 looks down and left at the second skiff.

As for shot #1, I'm reworking the 'terrain', as I said, so we'll see how it goes....
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