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Old 05-23-2002, 10:45 AM   #81
JK_Morovski
 
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oh dear everyone seems to be making rather a big deal of this.

my take on it was that sifa dyous (sp.) died, giving sidious/palpatine the opportunity the chance to order the army under his name.....10 yrs ago, around the time they met anakin

now 10 yrs later, as anakin is about to go dark the army comes o fruition as does his army

as he says everything is as he planned. of course sidious and palpatine are the same. and sidious was never on teh jedi council, he just stole that guys name. unless of course sifa dyous was dookus name b4 he left the council
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Old 05-23-2002, 02:20 PM   #82
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As far as the belief there can only be two Sith at a time, I dont buy it as a blanket statement. At the end of EP1, at QuiGon's funeral Yoda says exactly these words:

"Always two there are. No more, No less."

Mace's reply is:

"But which did he kill? The Master, or the apprentice?"

Yoda does not say there are only "two total" as a blanket statement. It is obvious the context of the topic related to a Master/apprentice relationship. I think it is a possibility with the Sith, Like the Jedi, Each Master only has one apprentice.

Tyranus, Jengo and Maul all three had to have been trained along the line somewhere, so for me, that along with the exact wording used by Yoda, shoots the theory of "only two total" down in flames.

We will see in EP3.

D4
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Old 05-23-2002, 03:45 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dark4ces
As far as the belief there can only be two Sith at a time, I dont buy it as a blanket statement. At the end of EP1, at QuiGon's funeral Yoda says exactly these words:

"Always two there are. No more, No less."

Mace's reply is:

"But which did he kill? The Master, or the apprentice?"

Yoda does not say there are only "two total" as a blanket statement. It is obvious the context of the topic related to a Master/apprentice relationship. I think it is a possibility with the Sith, Like the Jedi, Each Master only has one apprentice.

Tyranus, Jengo and Maul all three had to have been trained along the line somewhere, so for me, that along with the exact wording used by Yoda, shoots the theory of "only two total" down in flames.

We will see in EP3.

D4
Actually you're quite wrong...

There are only ever two at any point in time. It's been that was for several thousand years since the near destruction of the Sith.

EP1 there was Sidious(Master) and Maul(App.)
At that point Tyrannus\Dooku was still a Jedi. Dooku became the apprentice after Maul died and Dooku left the Order.
Jango(not Jengo) was never a sith he is CONTRACTED (not an apprentice) by Dooku.


Think about it. In EP5 & 6 Vader is trying to get Luke to join him on the Dark Side and kill the Emperor, not work along with him. Then Palpatine tries to get Luke to kill Vader and join him as his apprentice.


DarthNoodles out...
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Old 05-23-2002, 03:56 PM   #84
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Good points, but I still think, personelly, that Lucas has a big surprise planned. Play on words are a good writers best friend.
I am most likely wrong, but I just cant see their only being two Sith's in the entire scheme of things. If there are only two then the Sith is so much stronger than the Jedi the rest of the story is too unbelievable for me.

Also, the changling introduced in EP2 was for a Major reason to be revieled in EP3, me thinks.

D4
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Old 05-23-2002, 05:17 PM   #85
RichDiesal
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Just to clarify, Obi-Wan does say that Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago... just finally loaded up the damn thing and listened for it.

In any case, that just means that Sifo-Dyas disappeared nearly 10 years earlier... perhaps Dooku was one of the lost 20 who left the Order because he hated the Senate, and Sidious was a means to an end?


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Old 05-23-2002, 05:55 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceMonkey

Palpatine = Darth Sideous, Sypherdeous
Count Dooku = Darth Tyrannus

The reason that the Jedi don't know that Palpatine is evil/whats going on, is that the dark side is clouding the jedi's vision.
Quote:
Originally posted by etherealsilk
Wasn't it mentioned that he [Syfo Dyas] was on the Jedi Council somewhere? So he couldn't very well be just some made up name then.

Maybe he was a Jedi Master that got seduced by the dark side and is now palpatine, but then the other council member would recognize him.
I disagree that Palpatine is also Sifo-Dyas.


Quote:
Originally posted by Natty
... if Sifadous (the good jedi?) is Palpatine and Sifedous was thought to be killed 10years ago, wouldn't people have noticed when Palpatine rocks up a few years later and looks exactly the same as Sifadous? I mean I don't think they have plastic surgeons in the galaxy far, far away... do they????
Quote:
Originally posted by Vanor
...if Sifo-Dyas was a full fledged Jedi, then why don't any of the current Jedi refer to Palpatine as Sifo-Dyas? They would have to know it's the same person. And Sifo-Dyas died aroudn 10 years ago according to Ep2, or about the time of Ep1. Palpatine was a senator prior to this, and I don't think a Jedi could be a senator and member of the Jedi Console.
Right! Ten years ago was when Ep1 took place, am I right? Palpatine was already a senator, and was already Darth Sidious, yet Sifo-Dyas was supposed to be alive and on the Jedi coucil at that time, right? Even if they DID have VERY good plastic surgeons, the times don't work out.


Quote:
Originally posted by Perniciosus
The only OTHER possible explination is that Dooku went to Kamino on order from Sidious and presented himself as Master SifoDyas. That could possibly stay consistant with the time frame, but, again, gets lost because Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda appear to confirm that SifoDyas was, in fact, a former Jedi...
Sounds very possible!

I agree with RichDeisal's "Option 1". I think Count Dooku/Darth Tyrranus was once called Sifo-Dyas.

Evidence:
He was once a Jedi - even trained Qui-gonn - but ten years ago he "died" (probably under suspicious circumstances). This is right around the time...
-Maul died, and would need to be replaced as apprentice to the Sith Lord, Darth Sidious,
-as the defeat on the Federation's droid army,
-AND at the same time the order was placed for the clone army by Sifo-Dyas.

I just wish Obi-wan had made it clear whether or not he recognized dooku as Sifo-Dyas. > That is the biggest flaw in this theory.


Quote:
Originally posted by Hal_Horn
It is Sifo-Dyas, straight from the script.

I believe there was a real Jedi master named Sifo-Dyas, but after he died Sidious used his name to place an order for the clone army. Maybe Sidious even killed him in order to use his name.
Quote:
Originally posted by Blenny
After a little more thought it probably WAS Dooku impersonating Sifo-Dyas. After all, they must have had Jango right from the start of the process, and he did say he was recruited by Tyraanus on the moon of somewhere or other. ... It would be simple to use the name of a (conveniently) recently dead Jedi Master to make the request for a clone army...
Yeah, that's another good possibility.


Quote:
Originally posted by Baal Fett
the whole Jango/Dooku thing confuses me too...Jango Helps build the clone army...then leaves and helps build the droid army? but then the armies fight each other? why? Dooku is explaining to his allies about overthrowing the republic..but he help build the clone army to defend the republic? ....
Dooku was "playing" the Seperatists (including the Trade Federation) just to trick them into building another droid army, to supplement the Clone army. It's pretty obvious that the Clone army - originally ordered for use by the Jedi - later become usurped by Palpatine, and MUCH later take the form of Storm Troopers. Neither Dooku nor Sidious really cared much that some of each of their future armies would get killed fighting each other in the AOTC battle.


Quote:
Originally posted by Perniciosus
... Dooku's limited lines in AotC where he states that the Senate is under the control of the Dark Lords of the Sith. Dooku goes so far as to talk about Darth Sidious being aligned with the Trade Federation's Viceroy during the happenings that made up TPM.
Quote:
Originally posted by Naphtali
Now [Dooku] is likely trying to entrap sidious by slickly warning the jedi, thus to help himself beomce the new leader of the sith, leader of a new dictatorship, ...
I think Dooku WAS ACTUALLY trying to seduce Obi-wan in this moment, and so Dooku gave him some true "inside" info (hehe, reminded me of Saruman seducing Gandalf - showing him "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em," AND much like the Emperor tries to seduce Luke.) Yes, even though Dooku was "working for" Sidious, the way of the Sith is that there can only be two, always battling for the top spot, (or is this just "Expanded Universe" talk - therefore not "canonized"?) so it's possible Tyrannus/Dooku had his own plans to overthrow Sidious/Palpatine.

Quote:
Originally posted by dorain8
did anyone else notice papatne was rather pale in this movie
Yup! I totally did! As well as his being rather "sharp" and almost snide with everyone, not as goofily polite as in Ep1.


Quote:
Originally posted by Cobalt60
perhaps "Chancellor" Palpatine is a shapeshifter/changeling who is working for Sidious.

(why do you think they made a such big deal of introducing 'changelings' into the StarWars universe, with that female bounty hunter in the beginning of the film? the fact that she was a changeling served no dramatic purpose to the plot of Ep2. but this will serve a dramatic purpose in Ep3 , as we realise that NOBODY is who they seem to be)
Good point, Cobalt! The majority of viewers probably aren't like the rest of us who've seen the inside of the expanded universe. They may need "prepping" for the idea of shapeshifters in the StarWars galaxy.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nebelwerfer_
...why not just think that palpatine was a clone of sidious who is gaining power and just when he has enough power sidious will "dismiss" the clone palpatine and take over the position of chansellor of the senate and become emperor.
Wow! That does make sense! Except that I think Palpatine doesn't NEED to be replaced by Sidious; his nasty character is already coming out, and it's clear even from Ep1 that he had his eye on Anakin - who later become Emperor Palpatine's underling.
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Old 05-23-2002, 06:03 PM   #87
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my turn!

i believe that the clone war is to give palpatine power and he will act as the mediator and united republic and separitis. Thus creating the empire.. Somewhere along the way, a groups of people suspicious with palpatine, break off and become the rebellion.

Now, the most difficult thing, Palpatine has the apprentice maul.
Maul dies.
Yoda trained Dooku.
Therefore, Palpatine is not dooku master, yoda is,but Dooku is seduced by the dark side and becomes a sith. NOT AN APPRENTICE.

Dooku is the leader of the separitists and palpatine is the leader of the republic. They work together to benefit palpatine.

Syfo Dias(ummm...spelling) was a jedi master on the council.
dies nearly 10 years ago.(ep.1)
most likely dias is killed by dooku and uses his name to built the army.

Now as for dooku telling obi wan that there is a sith lord controlling the republic, it is to throw them off course and begin to turn on themselves. Also, it is to make palpatine innocent so no one suspects him of being the sith lord.

IMO, i think i figured it out!


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Old 05-23-2002, 10:54 PM   #88
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What happens in Episode II is all part of Palpatine/Sidious' plan, I believe.

I like the theory that after Episode I, Dooku (Tyrannus) became Sidious' apprentice, killed Sipha Dias and used Jango to create the clone army. The reason Jango works for the clones and for the droid army could either be that 1. He's a bounty hunter or 2. It's all part of Sidious' ultimate plan to rule the galaxy. Everything is a front the Palpatine is using to fool the Jedi, the Senate and the citizens. He sent Dooku to make this seperatist movement as a way to gain more power for himself, to use this army and crush the "threat", and it's working perfectly in Episode II. He has his enemies helping Dooku and the fake seperatist movement, and his enemies the Jedi helping the clone army. When he feels the time is right, he'll turn on everyone and crush them beneath his boot, becoming the emperor
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Old 05-23-2002, 11:27 PM   #89
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Just to prove the point that Sidious is using the Seperatists as a front, this is taken from the script:

Quote:
DARTH SIDIOUS
Welcome home, Lord Tyranus. You have done well.

COUNT DOOKU
I bring you good news, my Lord. The war has begun.

DARTH SIDIOUS
Excellent. (smiling) Everything is going as planned.
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