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Old 05-23-2002, 08:52 AM   #41
She'ba Katana
 
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I think Caliban had a good point.

After AotC there are millions of Clone troppers, and they are going to wipe out the sepratists. As they showed in AotC they are superior to the droids, so still maybe millions of clones will survive the Clone wars.

(By the way, the Clones are troops on these Ships looking like Star-Destroyers)

And as we see, the Kamonians are still producing millions of them. So you can't say, that there will be no clones left at ANH.

It may be possible that the Jedi (or the rebbels), had been clever enough to destroy the cloning facility.

So a mixture of clones and recruits makes a lot of sense.
(By the way. Cloning Officers would make no sense at all. The imperial Officers had to manage a great variety of jobs, while the clones just had to fight or lead a war. But as we heard in AotC they modified the DNA of Jango to make the clones more compliant. That wouldn't be effective for the imperial Officers.)
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Old 05-23-2002, 11:00 AM   #42
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The clones wouldn't live long enough to be in ANH.

They were only 10 years old in AOTC and looked about 25-30 years old. That means the 1 million more on the way would be about 50-60 by the time ANH rolls around.

Not much of an army.


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Old 05-23-2002, 03:02 PM   #43
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Okay, so much to post...

First to say Stromtroopers are not clones based on books is like saying Boba Fett is named Jaster Mereel and used to be an imperial journeyman, um... not anymore! So, books are not canon and are obviously subject to being changed and/or refuted.

Secondly, the accent thing. Sure Clones of Jango are going to have an accent, but Jango's dead. The next "template" for the clones may not have an accent. Something to think about...

Then, who would have outlawed clones after the war? Well, it's kinda obvious... that's right... Palpatine. Now tell me that makes sense. Palpatine is going to eliminate his source of a fast and extremely loyal army right when he's about to rock the boat by declaring himself Emperor. I don't think so! Maybe he would make it illegal for other people to be making clones, but do you honestly think that this purely evil man who uses clones as the backbone of his rise to power is going to stop using them because people don't like them? right...

Yes, Leia says to Luke in the detention area "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?" This implies that Stormtroopers are a set height. But this is not damning evidence, just a little help that's all

But here's another food for thought:
In Episode 4: A New Hope the Imperial officer on the Death Star called for teh Stormtrooper who was ambushed by Luke, Chewie, Obiwan and Han on the Falcon. Remember what he called him? That's right TK421, a serial number. That's all clones are: numbers. If they were conscripts , then why not call them private smith or trooper smith. We already see the definate conscripts (The Generals, Admirals, and officers) being referred to by name, not number. i.e. General Veers, Admiral Needa, Captain Piet. Are you telling me they started out as numbers and then get names? That doesn't work so well.

Also, As far as being to old and dying too fast. They were accelerated to full maturity, but then are allowed to grow at normal rate. They don't continue to grow at an accelerated rate after they mature. They need an army fast, not a bunch of kids. But what would be the point of making an army that grows to old to use in a matter of 10 years! Look at Boba, he was taken off the accelerated growth at a youg age, he ages normal now. The Clonetroopers are taken off it at around the age 18-25, then grow at normal rate. Clones don't just age that way because they are clones. They are injected/fed/etc something that allows them to grow faster, but then grow at normal rate when that stimulant is not used anymore. Otherwise Boba would have been ancient by Episode 4-6.

The idea that Stormtroopers are a mix of clones and conscripts is certainly viable. But to say that stormtroopers are not clones at this point, is a bit rash and basically throwing out logic in favor of saving your EU stories being shattered and rendered moot.

Clonetroopers are the Republic army, but when Palpatine becomes Emperor, he makes some changes. The armor will change and he'll call them Stormtroopers for a fear factor and most importantly, to signify taht the Old Republic is truly dead. The clones are led and commanded by conscripts, the officers, Admirals, Captains, and Generals.

Republic-> Clonetroopers
Empire-> Stormtroopers

Same thing!


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Old 05-23-2002, 03:12 PM   #44
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May be the first million of Clones would be too old to fight. But what about the millions of Babyclones you can see at Kamino in AotC ?
And what about the next order, which the Kaminoian mentioned, which they will need more time for ?
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Old 05-23-2002, 03:25 PM   #45
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The fact that Jango Fett died answered the question. They kept having to take blood samples, and if he's around no longer, then the army will not survive for long. It's only a matter of time...
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Old 05-23-2002, 03:29 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by She'ba Katana
May be the first million of Clones would be too old to fight. But what about the millions of Babyclones you can see at Kamino in AotC ?
And what about the next order, which the Kaminoian mentioned, which they will need more time for ?
That's right. The creature says that 200,000 are ready and 1 million are on the way, but it will take some time. How long? We do not know.
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Old 05-23-2002, 03:37 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darklighter
The fact that Jango Fett died answered the question. They kept having to take blood samples, and if he's around no longer, then the army will not survive for long. It's only a matter of time...
Right, cause as everyone knows, Jango Fett is the only man who can be cloned in the entire Star Wars Universe

Why can't they use someone else as the clone template? That would explain why the Stormtroopers of the OT don't have an accent.

And do you guys enjoy skipping over posts? I just posted a long post in the attempt to support the "Stormtroopers are Clones" camp. Please read that in it's entirety, then refute all points before posting stuff like:

"The fact that Jango Fett died answered the question"

to prove Stormtroopers aren't clones.


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Old 05-23-2002, 03:38 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darklighter
The fact that Jango Fett died answered the question. They kept having to take blood samples, and if he's around no longer, then the army will not survive for long. It's only a matter of time...
Why would they have to keep taking blood samples? They presumably have his genetic structure on file...


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Last edited by Vestril; 05-23-2002 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 05-23-2002, 03:56 PM   #49
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ANH shows that you're wrong in a rather clear way. Ben's point is good, but there is also the fact that Han and Luke are walking down the corridors and Han is obviously taller than Luke, Officers would notice this immediately if they were used to Troopers being the same height.
Lucas took that senario from old Flash Gordon serials; doesn't have to make sense, it just had to happen for the story. Lucas is writing a morality play, a fantasy, not something that's 100% realistic.
Quote:
What's more, since in AotC the officers are all Clones as well (Different colored uniforms), it would stand to reason that in the OT the officers would be clones if the troopers were clones.
The Troop officers were in uniforms, but they were still being commanded by the Jedi. Yoda was taking the place of General Veers in ESB. Stormtroopers are a different entity from any other branch of the Imperial army, and they can be commanded by the officers of any of the branches above them, the army Generals and the Fleet Admirals and Captains...
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Old 05-23-2002, 04:02 PM   #50
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you do know...dont you?

I keep seeing people saying things about the empire and the republic that differentiate between them. You do all understand that they are one and the same right?

The Republic becomes what is referred to as the Empire when the New Republic (rag tag freedom fighters anyone?) is formed. The New Republic is just a bunch of people who dont like what the republic has become (an empire).

The process really began in Ep2 with Palpatine being given dictatorial power.

Just thought I would point this out.

-TS02
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Old 05-23-2002, 04:06 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vestril


Why would they have to keep taking blodd samples? They presumably have his genetic structure on file...
Exactly. I don't know how anyone could've thought they had to keep taking more samples to create more clones. And even if they did, they have those millions of clones to take blood from. It's the same blood. You know; cloned blood.


-Skyro
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Old 05-23-2002, 04:13 PM   #52
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Re: you do know...dont you?

Quote:
Originally posted by Twinstar02
I keep seeing people saying things about the empire and the republic that differentiate between them. You do all understand that they are one and the same right?

The Republic becomes what is referred to as the Empire when the New Republic (rag tag freedom fighters anyone?) is formed. The New Republic is just a bunch of people who dont like what the republic has become (an empire).

The process really began in Ep2 with Palpatine being given dictatorial power.

Just thought I would point this out.

-TS02
I think I know what you're trying to say, but you hurt your case more than you helped it.

First of all, yes the Empire is nothing more than the Republic, come under Dictatorship and a few cosmetic changes. But the New Republic did not exist till after the death of the Emperor and the Empire's defeat at the Battle of Endor. Up until that point it was only referred to by as the Rebellion or Rebels, by in-movie characters and by George Lucas.

And though I concede that the Empire and Republic are basically the same, I did mention there are cosmetic changes. Like the Imperial Insignia, the abolishment of the Senate, the making of a large Imperial navy and army (Star Destroyers, Etc..) and renaming Clonetroopers to Stormtroopers and changing the look of their armor.

But, the Republic IS referred to as the EMPIRE after Palpatine declares himself Emperor. That's why it is called the Imperial senate in Episode 4, not the Republic Senate. So the name Republic no longer exists.


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Old 05-23-2002, 04:22 PM   #53
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man, u ppl played too much games, watched too much movies and drink too much coffee!! get a life man!


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Old 05-23-2002, 04:27 PM   #54
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The Troop officers were in uniforms, but they were still being commanded by the Jedi. Yoda was taking the place of General Veers in ESB. Stormtroopers are a different entity from any other branch of the Imperial army, and they can be commanded by the officers of any of the branches above them, the army Generals and the Fleet Admirals and Captains...
Are all of the men on the Star Destroyers the same? AotC suggests that these, too would be clones. It's more than just the senior officers who look different from one another, even the junior officers like the ones in the Detention Cell arejust people.



Quote:
Lucas took that senario from old Flash Gordon serials; doesn't have to make sense, it just had to happen for the story. Lucas is writing a morality play, a fantasy, not something that's 100% realistic.
In general, though, his story warps to fit the reality of the situation. To be honest it makes sense that they would make the shift from clone troopers to regular troopers, for a few reasons. Clone troopers are much more predictable than human troopers, they will react to a situation in the same way, and fight with the same powers. They all have the same weaknesses. This works much better fighting a robot intelligence opponent than a human intelligence opponent, in general. When they shift from fighting robot armies to fighting people, a shift in troopers would make sense.

Also, there are good political reasons to fight with enlisted troopers rather than cloned ones. When you enlist a man and indoctrinate him, suddenly his family is tied to you, his brothers/sisters/parents are all suddenly vested in the Empire--especially if he dies in the line of duty. To turn away from the Empire would be especially hard if it was in control of their child/friend, or even worse yet--his memory.


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Old 05-24-2002, 06:28 AM   #55
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Originally posted by TuskenUK
JEEEEEEEEEEZUZ you people lol

Well has NOBODY thought to look at the most obvious piece of evidence? Voices!

Jango Fett and HIS clones = Aussie accents
Stormtroopers = US Accents
Stormtrooper Officers = English, American
Hmm, I'd have to say that Jango, Boba, and the Kinoseans (sp?) have more of a New Zealander accent than Australian.

As well, I don't think the Ep4-6 StormTroopers are clones. The Clone Trooper forces probably evolved into what we know later as Stormies, but I don't think that force would last THAT long. It makes sense that they MAY still have some clones in their ranks, (a mixture) but we're talking MANY years later(plus their growth acceleration!?)

The Empire "supposedly" has RECRUITING standards in later times - even is against alien races joining up. And wasn't Han Solo in the process of joining up with their ranks before ditching?

Lucas would have to be a COMPLETE IDIOT to slap the Expanded Universe in the face that much (yet, . . erm, Midichlorians? Jaster Mareel? .. . I wouldn't put it beyond him). Plus, even apart from all the EU info, look at all the different heights in all the troopers! Surely clones don't grow to be different sizes?!


Quote:
Originally posted by Darklighter
So, does that mean the stormtroopers are just normal humans? That doesn't make sense, because the Empire has an infinite supply of them, almost. Are normal people really that willing to die.
Hmm, ever do much reading about the Third Reich and Nazi Germany? People can believe ALOT of wierd stuff!


Hmm, another thought that has puzzled me:

***Why did these "clones" not look like Jango??** Actually, I thought they looked EXACTLY like the Nabooian (sp?) Captain - the guy that replaced Tanaka!! (eye patch) Check it out!! I was like, "woah, maybe he lost his eye and they used IT'S DNA to clone that army!!. .. Naw, I know, stupid thought, but it REALLY does look like the same guy!
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