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Old 05-18-2002, 01:10 PM   #1
ArtifeX
 
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ArtifeX's "What Needs to Happen in 1.04"

I've written a much-needed summation, based on all of my testing and research, of everything that I believe needs to be modified in a new 1.04 patch in order for JK2 to maintain long-term appeal and to repair the current community rift created by the 1.03 patch. Here's the link:

http://www.oculis.org/asc/features_104.html

I've got many fixes that would be very simple (seemingly) to implement, and others that are far more involved. Everybody give it a read and let me know what you think. Give me some good suggestions, and I may just add them to the list with a credit in your name.

Also, if anyone has an appropriate email address for someone at Raven assigned to JK2, then email it to me at:

arsartifex@msn.com

and I'll make sure to post it on that page so that Raven can hear about your reactions to my post directly.


Artifex *ASC*
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Old 05-18-2002, 01:26 PM   #2
Agen
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If they make the saber damage 10-25 hp more than it is now, it hink that would be better.

Quote:
Drain-- Put it back the way it was in 1.02, with one caveat: shorten the range to 1/2 of what it is now. .
2/3 of what it is nowo wuld be better i tihnk.

Quote:
Make Light Style a one-handed style and allow the free hand to be used for specialized melee attacks like grappling and punches.
Er... well what about they cna take there hand off ands do that but it slows em down and they have the chance fo getting it cut off?

Otherwise everything fine, but grip shoudl eb put back tot he way it was in 1.02, ebcause now i can't geto tu of it, because of my 56k they swing you abotu in the air and you warp ab bit and cant' see where they are.

And you forgot the backstab move, thye should make it less damaging, (about 75 hp) and only hits at stomach range which woudl stop the janitor being pulled off anit takes lnoger to recover.. that shoudls top most ass fighters.
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Old 05-18-2002, 01:34 PM   #3
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Well, I think the damage for the backslash in medium stance should have gradient damage, so it only really hurts people right behind you (middle of the swing). The hurther to the edge of the swing you get, the less damage you take (dramatically). Bakswings should also be given a 'recovery time' - this would stop all the backward running stuff, and still let the move be used in the beautiful way it should be.

Oh, and my other enhancement.. something that traces your computer's posts on forums.. the first time an opinion on the patch is posted, fine - after that, consistent whining and bitching will steadily lower your hit damage.... I'm going to be crucified for this, aren't I....
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Old 05-18-2002, 01:43 PM   #4
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Sometimes it's useful to get spammers off there winning sprees in duels wait for them to trryand DFA you and thne backstab them. Gets him off for a while until it's his turn again and goes aroudn abckwards in heavystance
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Old 05-18-2002, 01:54 PM   #5
C'jais
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Excellent changes Artifex, all of them VERY good!

But something should be done about the stupid backstab damage as it now.

And raven, please make it so you cannot block attacks coming from your rear.... that's just plain silly...
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Old 05-18-2002, 01:58 PM   #6
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two cents:

"Jump-- Allow Kicking and Wall moves at level 1."

Or instead of saberthrow in NF Servers, give force jump level 2. Kicking should probably cost you points in force-enabled servers (though, I don't think I've ever played with just force jump level 1 in force servers)

"Saber Throw-- Remove Saber Throwing from FFA duels."

Outside of duels, I don't see any use for saberthrow. It's far too costly in points which are 9 times out of 10, better off spent elsewhere. 30 damage for an attack that leaves you vulnerable that can be deflected and travels slower than a bryers shot.... wow. In duels it's powerful just because you can't heal and range is key. Outside of duels, healing is possible and their are a number of cheaper/more damaging methods of attack.

*shrug*, I'd rather see a more costly saber throw personally. Like half your force but it does some serious damage if it hits. It can still be blocked, which makes it less spammy but requires more of an opening/good timing. Would also make force usage a bit more tighter, should I use heal or save up for that saber throw which could end it right here.... etc.

"Add more acrobatic moves to Medium style.
Make Light Style a one-handed style and allow the free hand to be used for specialized melee attacks like grappling and punches."

I seriously doubt they'll release a patch and add more moves.

My idea on special moves is to have them all cost force to do. BUT, remove the lag time after all the special moves (sans DFA).

This does 2 big things: 1, spamming is dropped seriously now that they cost force to do (like 1-2 times the force required of a flipkick I'm thinking). Also puts more pressure on force management. Should I heal, saberthrow, or try for a pull/backstab when he might have absorb?

2. It removes the "cheap" kills people complain about. The reason backstabs, medium finisher, and DFA do so much damage is because the lag time afterwords still registers as a hit for full damage. By removing the lag, saber combat becomes more flowing (why I pause for 3 seconds after the medium finisher, I'm not sure) and people will be less likely to impale themselves on a seemingly idle saber.

Why idle sabers deal 1 damage but an idle saber being held backwords (faststance backstab) is 100 damage, I'm not sure.

On that note, idle sabers should either deal no damage or go back to 5 damage. The 1 damage has absolutely no use other than to mislead you so you don't know if you scored a hit or just gave your opponent a burn. The groan sounds should be removed unless you take 10+ damage.

On a semi-random side note, they never did get rid of the DFA bug. If you walk over the buried saber, you're still take damage. Only now it's harder to walk over since you can't turn.

Another beef I have, constant rolling should be gone. Why you can roll faster than you can run still makes no sense to me. It wouldn't bother me but keepaway to build up force duels (or just stall to annoy your opponent) is, well, annoying. Backpeddle speed needs to be lower too. Oh well.


I doubt they'll release another patch, but if they do, they probably won't do half the suggestions you made about saber combat. Anything that requires new art or animations probably won't happen.

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Old 05-18-2002, 02:16 PM   #7
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Quote:
Drain-- Put it back the way it was in 1.02, with one caveat: shorten the range to 1/2 of what it is now. That will put a Drainer in position for retaliation, and will force him to be aggressive rather than passive. This will also allow an absorber to conserve more of his Force Power by making it easier to stay out of range. Dark vs. Dark battles will become much more interesting due to the close-quarters nature of this kind of Drain battle.
My alternative suggestion for this was posted some time back, but I never saw any commnets on it: Remove the healing aspect of Drain entirely, apart from at level 3, at level 3 you get a beam (as per level 2). The Dark side is supposed to be much more about killing your opponent than healing yourself, and I feel that the array of offensive powers PLUS healing powers (some of the LS powers are worthless...Protect I'm thinking of you...) offset a lack of healing (and forces DS'ers to be more intelligent rather than lightning,drain, lightning,drain,lightning,drain,et.c while running away a lot)

Quote:
Heal-- Use the Healing amount from 1.02, but the Force Power cost from 1.03. This will make someone very careful about Healing, but also make it worthwhile when they do.
Absorb-- Put it back the way it was in 1.02, but keep the invisibile aura.
Yes, I think the combination of healing reduction AND increase in force cost was excessive, and has relegated the power to the
realm of the near useless. I never particularly used Abosrb before the patch, but I recall the high force cost/second made it far less useful than it needed to be. Also, as the ONLY worthwhile counter to the dark side powers, it needs to have a good "bang for your buck" ratio. Otherwise, you simply see a resurgance of the DSer waiting for the Absorb user to run out of force, then letting rip with all they have. This argument will always go one way or the other :>

Quote:
Jump-- Allow Kicking and Wall moves at level 1.
Saber Throw-- Remove Saber Throwing from FFA duels.
Hmm, I have to admit I'm not fond of the addition of saber throw to no force duels myself, but I would be more inclined to allow a max of Force Jump 2 instead of 1 in a no force game (which answers that problem). On the other hand, kicking is a tactic that could be overused in a duel, resulting in the so-called "ninja jedi" who never even bothers to ignite their saber (hmm...an interesting challeneg methinks)

Quote:
Mind Trick-- Make the range at which Mind Trick can be overcome by Force Sight dependent upon the difference in the number of Power Levels in each. A level 1 Force Sight should only be able to see someone with Level 3 Mind Trick within a few meters. A level 3 Force Sight should be able to see any level of Mind Trick at maximum range.
A VASTLY simpler solution to code is this: You need an equal or higher level of force seeing to penetrate a given level of mind trick. Simple and elegant - Granted it's not much, but it makes MT 3 a much more worthwhile investment (I rarely go beyond seeing 2 myself, neding my points elsewhere), and makes it a much more tactical decision in Knight level servers.

Quote:
Make Light Style a one-handed style and allow the free hand to be used for specialized melee attacks like grappling and punches.
I'm not so sure about this one myself, I can see it having some serious problems with usage alone - you would need to concentrate on saber fighting AND activating these secondary attacks. What about altering the animations so that in effect the saber strikes twice in quick succession, while only requiring a single attack stroke (eg a sideswing would give a high strike that is then pulled out and then flashes down into a low leg strike - the upper one may be blocked, but the second one is most likely going to penetrate everything bar a light style users defence - as well as being more of a low-damage-but-hits-often type of attack)

Quote:
Lower the chances of a successful block by an amount commensurate with the distance of the attacker from the defender's crosshairs. This will actually lend some skill to defending yourself. Having them close to your crosshair should increase the chances of parrying as well.
Do NOT make blocking manual. We have enough keys to worry with already! The above crosshair solution is much more elegant.
Allow Light Style attacks to hit someone using a Force Power
Hear hear, it's taken me a while to get used to the new saber blocking, but I think I've got it licked now. It just needs better reflexes or using a more powerful style (light is weak, but can get several blows in before the opponents saber is readied, you *have* to attack when your opponent swings to get in there - it relies on being faster than they are). Finally, if someone is concentrating on a force power they aren't defending themselves.

A few last things: The blue lunge didn't need to have it's turning removed, and I think that could go back in without too much fuss. I also think the real problem with the DFA was it's bizarre hitbox problems (where you got hit despite being nowhere near). Turning sideways being limited I can understand, but I KEEP landing on peoples HEADS for crying out loud! Couldn't it at least be aimed up or down so you can hurt someone instead of looking silly before they murder you? (In other words, at the end of a DFA strike you can pivot it vertically, allowing you to hit people directly below you)

Sorry about the long comments, but those are my thoughts on what you said. I also disagree with your "radical" saber changes, since they would place strong style at a severe disadvantage (mmm, slow single saber vs either twin sabers or a double bladed one? No chance), but it might make for an interesting mod. (maybe if you went for the blue==twin saber, red==double saber instead?)
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Old 05-18-2002, 02:54 PM   #8
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How about stopping pull knocking people down. That would completely stop the pull/backstab which is a cheap and very boring move as the whole game ends up with who can get a pull knockdown first.

Reduce the damage of backstabs to those of a normal swing (but have the normal swings at Artifexs suggested 30/60/90) and also have a separate, slower backstab for the heavy stance.Using the same animation as medium and just doing more damage makes the medium backstab pointless.

The blocking system with the crosshair is a good idea but would that be expensive on server cpu? Just reducing the radius of blocking would be good enough. There is a command to revert to 1.02 style blocking though.

Another possibility would be to remove the healing power of drain, just make it a tactical power, and keep heal as an expensive power. The darkside couldnt heal in jk1 and heal was very expensive, not sure why it was changed. Being able to heal just drags out duels.
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Old 05-18-2002, 03:14 PM   #9
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Question How about Speed and Dark Rage?

What's the opinion on Speed and Dark Rage? Outside of ctf I havn't seen Speed used to great effect. Using it for quicker attacks just seems an invitation for the opponent to push/pull sweep you. I'm not sure about the best ways to upgrade, but I think it definitely needs its power cost lowered. As of now it takes what- 1/2 of your total power? Seems crazy high to me. Helping you get up from a knockdown faster could be an added benefit. With the lightside having absorb, this would help out the darkside against being knocked to the ground. Hell, maybe Iím mistaken and Speed actually already does this, but with it costing so much energy it's of no use.

Dark Rage is another underpowered ability. The first step is to remove the red electricity when itís activated, similar to the removal of the blue light absorb received in 1.03. This benefit is again needed for the same reason absorb now has it, itís too easy to just run away and wait out the dark rage power. Seeing as this power is a sort of "berserk" mode, making the user immune to force powers while its activated isn't out of line IMO, this could be balanced by the inability for the "berserker" to use powers himself. (is this already the case?)
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Old 05-18-2002, 03:18 PM   #10
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I don't think that's a solution, it would cause more annoyance than any real effect, since the real problem is those who insist on running around backwards.

an occasional pull/backswing attempt isn't too bad either, it's when people use it as their primary attack ALL THE TIME. A better solution would be to reduce the blocking levels slightly, to allow more of the normal strikes to go through, and bring the saber damages back to their normal levels (the 30/60/90 is a fine setting). If you did that, then I think you'd find that fewer people would resort to constant backswinging when they could at last get a normal strike to connect. (Besides, aborsb neatly counters the pull part, and you can try holding the jump key to take off and away from the stab)
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Old 05-18-2002, 05:41 PM   #11
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Well, your ideas for a 1-handed light stance and the Boc/Darth Maul sabers seem more in line with a JO version of SBX than any sort of gameplay fix. Other than that, I agree with everything else except the no saber throw in duel and acrobatics with level 1 force jump.


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Old 05-18-2002, 06:39 PM   #12
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Smile

Great suggestions... I agree with pretty much everything, except the Kick-Flipping in No-Force duel servers, and the ability to turn with the Blue Stance Crouching-Thrust attack.

I find kicking incredibly annoying because it's so random, and there is really no way to block against it. To me, it seems like it detracts away from some of the skill of the game, because a lucky kick can knock you down and easily cost you the match. On a Force Powers server, flip-kicking is more balanced because you can use Protect (while on the ground) or heal or drain or something to gain back the 20 hitpoints you lost... but not in No Force duels.

As for the Blue Stance move... I think it was too easy to hit with before, and there is really no way to counter the move if the attacker is allowed to turn. It's pretty hard to counter as it is right now because the recovery time of the move is so small. Plus it can be done from the air and thrown into blue-combos... I would say I like it the way it is. :)

All in all though, some great suggestions. I hope Raven can take some of them to heart, and maybe even come up with some other intelligent changes that we havn't thought of yet.

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Old 05-18-2002, 07:16 PM   #13
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I must say that I agree with most of these suggestions that ArtifeX writed. The best way eliminate these special move whores is to decrese damage special moves make and increse damage of normal attacks. There isn't much to add thing that have been said earlier... but something must be done for this rageus back stabbing...

And one other thing, it would be very cool if players could choose between normal and double bladed light sabers, ofcourse i would need lot of work like coding and making new animations but it would open so maaaany possibilities
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Old 05-19-2002, 01:28 AM   #14
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I agree with most of your points, but you are forgetting about guns completely.

In CTF games, it is impossbile for defenders to do their jobs properly with so little ammo. I mean, I can take any pub server regular, but skilled players aren't going to be as predictable, and are generally harder to kill. If we don't have a repeater, flechette, rocket or thermal, we're screwed. The carrier can easily pull his saber out and block everything else. This is retarded.

In scenarios where both teams have the opposing team's flag at their base, the match can drag on forever with nothing happening. You can go back all you want, but 4 ****ing shots to kill a skilled player with 100/100 and bacta is impossible, even 12 is difficult . Not to mention your gun can be pulled.

Gunning is a joke, raven needs to fix this. Some people want to compete. We didn't all come here to play sabers., even though I started out playing sabers only until about a month after release.
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Old 05-19-2002, 01:35 AM   #15
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I agree with most of your points, but you are forgetting about guns completely.

In CTF games, it is impossbile for defenders to do their jobs properly with so little ammo. I mean, I can take any pub server regular, but skilled players aren't going to be as predictable, and are generally harder to kill. If we don't have a repeater, flechette, rocket or thermal, we're screwed. The carrier can easily pull his saber out and block everything else. This is retarded.

In scenarios where both teams have the opposing team's flag at their base, the match can drag on forever with nothing happening. You can go back all you want, but 4 ****ing shots to kill a skilled player with 100/100 and bacta is impossible, even 12 is difficult . Not to mention your gun can be pulled.

Gunning is a joke, raven needs to fix this. Some people want to compete. We didn't all come here to play sabers., even though I started out playing sabers only until about a month after release.
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Old 05-19-2002, 01:42 AM   #16
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I agree with most of your points, but you are forgetting about guns completely.

In CTF games, it is impossbile for defenders to do their jobs properly with so little ammo. I mean, I can take any pub server regular, but skilled players aren't going to be as predictable, and are generally harder to kill. If we don't have a repeater, flechette, rocket or thermal, we're screwed. The carrier can easily pull his saber out and block everything else. This is retarded.

In scenarios where both teams have the opposing team's flag at their base, the match can drag on forever with nothing happening. You can go back all you want, but 4 ****ing shots to kill a skilled player with 100/100 and bacta is impossible, even 12 is difficult . Not to mention your gun can be pulled.

Gunning is a joke, raven needs to fix this. Some people want to compete. We didn't all come here to play sabers., even though I started out playing sabers only until about a month after release.
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Old 05-19-2002, 03:24 AM   #17
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Backsweepers are annoying, really...really...annoying but I've learnt to deal with them by using grip and swinging them like a rag doll (works most the time). What really ticks me off is lightning now. Someone uses lightning and my armor and health drop insanely fast. Now it should do this amount of dmg....cuz its a super powerful move but just bump up the cost for it. You can kill people with lightning without losing much force...thats tough stuff.


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Old 05-19-2002, 03:28 AM   #18
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ArtifeX,

Just wanted to say thank you for your guide on saber dueling. I have to admit I learned all of my styles and tricks (1.02 of course) by reading your guide. I saw my abilities go through the roof in a short time.

You're also dead on about what's gone wrong with 1.03. Keep up the good fight.


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Old 05-20-2002, 04:31 AM   #19
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Guns. As far as guns go... I like it the way it is. Saber is the main weapon and guns are used in special case scenarios. A master will use all weapons and swtich when the moment is right...

I also think push/pull are too powerful.

My friend and I's duels consist of trying to pull the other person to the ground and then backstab them. If you fall over its almost impossible to avoid that backstab or back sweep.

Its kind of stupid that saber duels are now push/pull fests.

You should be able to push or pull yourself while on the ground, so if someone pulls you, you can push them away from you.

Maybe a nice delay between pulls/pushes as well. so someone cant stand still spamming push/pull and whenever you get close your on the ground and dead in two seconds.
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Old 05-20-2002, 05:30 AM   #20
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I see only a few problems with the fixes I have read.

The nature of the dark force powers in jk are close up melee attacks that take quite a lot of time to seriously damage an opponent; lightning and of course grip.

The instantaneous effect of the light sided counter still make these relatively useless in the new version of jk.

There would need to be a power like force destruction from jk1 that is both powerful and instant to balance out the force powers (and then that would still be the only power that was effective against absorb).

The fact that absorb was used to discourage darksiders more than counter them actually gave darkies a chance to use their time constrained, offensive powers. If their opponent was blue, you didnít go shooting off lightning. The fact it is now invisible makes the short-range dark powers completely useless, as well as push/pull on maps with bottomless pits.

If absorb is invisible, then all dark powers, including drain grip and lightning should be invisible.

2

The second problem with the fixes is the fact that drain would still be a short-range power, as with all the dark powers. That would make dark vs. dark fights still come down to who could drain who the fastest and not who could use saber/force powers/guns most effectively.

3

As far as dark rage and speed go, those powers worked with guns primarily, as they should. Now that guns are impotent, these powers are as well. (Protect was a crappy long range absorb after all, which should have been used to discourage gunners and encourage close up dark powers/saber fights, as all ranged damage was weapons damage.)

Finally

I like the saber changes for the most part, but I say increase the potency of saber throw. This could be used to offset drain and some of the close up dark powers. This should get rid of the drain problem completely without having to get rid of the usefulness of drain itself.

PULL AND PUSH should be used to stop gunners. But by fixing drain, I donít see why gunners should still be castrated. Push and pull countered them very well in .02 and they can be used the same way in .04


If raven does anything, they should test the new version first. I personally volunteer, as I think artifex and the others would happily do as well.
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Old 05-20-2002, 12:29 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sutek


My alternative suggestion for this was posted some time back, but I never saw any commnets on it: Remove the healing aspect of Drain entirely, apart from at level 3, at level 3 you get a beam (as per level 2). The Dark side is supposed to be much more about killing your opponent than healing yourself, and I feel that the array of offensive powers PLUS healing powers (some of the LS powers are worthless...Protect I'm thinking of you...) offset a lack of healing (and forces DS'ers to be more intelligent rather than lightning,drain, lightning,drain,lightning,drain,et.c while running away a lot)
No, your suggestion would unduly cripple the dark side by giving it no way to heal. Also, Protect is no longer worthless. It, along with Dark Rage, can protect you from a one-hit kill after a knockdown.

Any idiot who does nothing but lightning, drain, lightning...ad nauseam will be quickly wiped out by a good player. For instance, Absorb requires only 10 points to turn on. if they use lightning on you, then you can cut absorb on in the middle of the blast and regain whatever force power they use up.

Quote:

Yes, I think the combination of healing reduction AND increase in force cost was excessive, and has relegated the power to the
realm of the near useless. I never particularly used Abosrb before the patch, but I recall the high force cost/second made it far less useful than it needed to be. Also, as the ONLY worthwhile counter to the dark side powers, it needs to have a good "bang for your buck" ratio. Otherwise, you simply see a resurgance of the DSer waiting for the Absorb user to run out of force, then letting rip with all they have. This argument will always go one way or the other :>
Absorb only needed to be empowered in 1.02 because Drain was overpowered. If they cut the range in half as i suggest, that won't be a problem any longer. My Absorb suggestions stands.

Quote:

Hmm, I have to admit I'm not fond of the addition of saber throw to no force duels myself, but I would be more inclined to allow a max of Force Jump 2 instead of 1 in a no force game (which answers that problem). On the other hand, kicking is a tactic that could be overused in a duel, resulting in the so-called "ninja jedi" who never even bothers to ignite their saber (hmm...an interesting challeneg methinks)
Saber throw in 1.03 no force is no longer an issue. This is a server administration problem as ChangKhan has explained. There is no Saber Throwing in a true no-force server.

Kicking is pathetically easy to avoid and counter. The addition of it to no-force games just expands on the attack options available--that is never a bad thing.

Quote:

A VASTLY simpler solution to code is this: You need an equal or higher level of force seeing to penetrate a given level of mind trick. Simple and elegant - Granted it's not much, but it makes MT 3 a much more worthwhile investment (I rarely go beyond seeing 2 myself, neding my points elsewhere), and makes it a much more tactical decision in Knight level servers.
Simpler, yes. Better, no. I'd rather have a more complicated solution that fixes the problem than a simple one that doesn't. Whatever level you pick of Sight currently is of no consequence. I am talking about a proposed version of the game.
Not being able to see someone with lvl 3 Mind Trick at all even when you have level 2 Sight is ludicrous.

Quote:

I'm not so sure about this one myself, I can see it having some serious problems with usage alone - you would need to concentrate on saber fighting AND activating these secondary attacks. What about altering the animations so that in effect the saber strikes twice in quick succession, while only requiring a single attack stroke (eg a sideswing would give a high strike that is then pulled out and then flashes down into a low leg strike - the upper one may be blocked, but the second one is most likely going to penetrate everything bar a light style users defence - as well as being more of a low-damage-but-hits-often type of attack)
Let me clarify. A secondary attack could be initiated by being in extreme close range and hitting some combination like back+attack. That might swing some kind of punch, or kick, or whatever. I'll let the animators figure that out.

I don't see any problem with usage there. It's very similar to the way kicking is now. Do you have problems saber fighting AND kicking?

Quote:

Hear hear, it's taken me a while to get used to the new saber blocking, but I think I've got it licked now. It just needs better reflexes or using a more powerful style (light is weak, but can get several blows in before the opponents saber is readied, you *have* to attack when your opponent swings to get in there - it relies on being faster than they are). Finally, if someone is concentrating on a force power they aren't defending themselves.
Reread my comments about problems in 1.03. You can defend against Light style swings even while using a Force power such as Drain or Lightning. I'm simply saying that needs to be fixed.

Quote:

A few last things: The blue lunge didn't need to have it's turning removed, and I think that could go back in without too much fuss. I also think the real problem with the DFA was it's bizarre hitbox problems (where you got hit despite being nowhere near). Turning sideways being limited I can understand, but I KEEP landing on peoples HEADS for crying out loud! Couldn't it at least be aimed up or down so you can hurt someone instead of looking silly before they murder you? (In other words, at the end of a DFA strike you can pivot it vertically, allowing you to hit people directly below you)

Sorry about the long comments, but those are my thoughts on what you said. I also disagree with your "radical" saber changes, since they would place strong style at a severe disadvantage (mmm, slow single saber vs either twin sabers or a double bladed one? No chance), but it might make for an interesting mod. (maybe if you went for the blue==twin saber, red==double saber instead?)
How can you say that Strong would be at a disadvantage when I have placed no other specific differences in my article other than Damage values?

And your solution to this "strong style disadvantage" is to switch it with what would be Medium style? Wouldn't Medium style be at even more of a disadvantage then with the lower damage?


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Old 05-20-2002, 12:45 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bambers
How about stopping pull knocking people down. That would completely stop the pull/backstab which is a cheap and very boring move as the whole game ends up with who can get a pull knockdown first.
Which is why you empower OTHER TACTICS rather than just nerfing the ones that CURRENTLY WORK. Jesus people, do you want all of the moves to equally suck?? How about making more of them NOT SUCK??

Quote:

Reduce the damage of backstabs to those of a normal swing (but have the normal swings at Artifexs suggested 30/60/90) and also have a separate, slower backstab for the heavy stance.Using the same animation as medium and just doing more damage makes the medium backstab pointless.
Again, if you make the backstabs do the same amount of damage as a normal swing, then why do the damn backstab in the first place???

Quote:

The blocking system with the crosshair is a good idea but would that be expensive on server cpu? Just reducing the radius of blocking would be good enough. There is a command to revert to 1.02 style blocking though.
No, it won't be expensive on the server unless high school trigonometry suddenly got more difficult overnight.

Blocking in 1.02 was random. What I'm proposing is an end to both randomized blocking and 100% blocking. Blocking should take skill like anything else.

Quote:

Another possibility would be to remove the healing power of drain, just make it a tactical power, and keep heal as an expensive power. The darkside couldnt heal in jk1 and heal was very expensive, not sure why it was changed. Being able to heal just drags out duels.
<rant>
I'VE GOT AN IDEA!! LET'S JUST NERF EVERYTHING SO NOBODY GETS INJURED, EVER!! THEN EVERYONE CAN JUST JOIN SERVERS TO CHAT WITH THEIR SABERS OFF ABOUT HOW MUCH BETTER THE GAME IS NOW THAT NOBODY EVER LOSES!!!
</rant>

dipsh1t whiners like you are the ones who got us saddled with the 1.03 patch in the first place. learn to play the ****1ng game!


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Old 05-20-2002, 12:53 PM   #23
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IMO, all they need to do is put the saber combat back to the way it was in 1.02, except: Fix the medium finisher so you can actually hit because there is a huge delay time after you are done, Fix the DFA damage, but not as much as it is in 1.03. I loved all the different saber moves that 1.02 had for each combonation. The sp saber sucked. It wasn't fun. The mp saber was fun, but now they just ruined it. This is by far the worst patch I have ever seen done to a game.
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Old 05-20-2002, 01:00 PM   #24
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Re: How about Speed and Dark Rage?

Quote:
Originally posted by HKPhooE
What's the opinion on Speed and Dark Rage? Outside of ctf I havn't seen Speed used to great effect. Using it for quicker attacks just seems an invitation for the opponent to push/pull sweep you. I'm not sure about the best ways to upgrade, but I think it definitely needs its power cost lowered. As of now it takes what- 1/2 of your total power? Seems crazy high to me. Helping you get up from a knockdown faster could be an added benefit. With the lightside having absorb, this would help out the darkside against being knocked to the ground. Hell, maybe Iím mistaken and Speed actually already does this, but with it costing so much energy it's of no use.
Speed is mainly useful in other gametypes than duel. In those contexts, it doesn't need any adjustment.

As far as using it to get up faster..
<secret>
Dark Rage already does that
</secret>

Quote:

Dark Rage is another underpowered ability. The first step is to remove the red electricity when itís activated, similar to the removal of the blue light absorb received in 1.03. This benefit is again needed for the same reason absorb now has it, itís too easy to just run away and wait out the dark rage power. Seeing as this power is a sort of "berserk" mode, making the user immune to force powers while its activated isn't out of line IMO, this could be balanced by the inability for the "berserker" to use powers himself. (is this already the case?)
Making a Rager immune to force powers isn't justified, nor is it required to balance anything out. This is already useful as a defensive power just as Protection is on the light side. The advantage it has is that it only has a one-time cost, so won't continually drain your Pool while in use.


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Old 05-20-2002, 03:55 PM   #25
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Apart from you radical suggestions which I dont really agree with there isnt much you suggest that cant be done with server settings. I only play NF Duels so I wont comment on Force Powers.

If servers would (and could?) lower the health to around 25-50% in the beginning of the match it would bring the damage ratios down. Now a lunge or heavy strike would be just as lethal as a backslash.

The ability to customize force levels is already in there so if servers want force jump/kick on a NF server they can turn it on.

The ability to turn off auto-blocking has just been anounced also. But honestly I think you give way more credit to auto blocking. The idea that somebody can just stand there in Red and block all Blue attacks is B.S. That may work in a test where all attacks are from the front but in a real duel all it takes are some low or back directed blue attacks to do damage. It is quite easy for Blue attacks to chip away at a heavy defender. In fact I usually use Blue against Red attackers to get in and hit then evade their counter-attack.

We need more creative server admins not a patch.
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Old 05-20-2002, 04:21 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by TexRoadkill
Apart from you radical suggestions which I dont really agree with there isnt much you suggest that cant be done with server settings. I only play NF Duels so I wont comment on Force Powers.

If servers would (and could?) lower the health to around 25-50% in the beginning of the match it would bring the damage ratios down. Now a lunge or heavy strike would be just as lethal as a backslash.

The ability to customize force levels is already in there so if servers want force jump/kick on a NF server they can turn it on.

The ability to turn off auto-blocking has just been anounced also. But honestly I think you give way more credit to auto blocking. The idea that somebody can just stand there in Red and block all Blue attacks is B.S. That may work in a test where all attacks are from the front but in a real duel all it takes are some low or back directed blue attacks to do damage. It is quite easy for Blue attacks to chip away at a heavy defender. In fact I usually use Blue against Red attackers to get in and hit then evade their counter-attack.

We need more creative server admins not a patch.
I disagree completely. Setting server variables (which wouldn't be detectable using the in-game browser, gamespy, ASE, or qtracker) to change the game away from its default gametype values would cause utter confusion when trying to join a server. It would also badly limit how many servers you had at your disposal when looking for a particular set of rules. Everyone would have different settings.

The changes I am proposing need to be made official in a patch so that those paying for a remote server (who may know little about how to run one), and ladder and tournament admins (who almost without exception go by default values) both have their games set up in a predictable manner so that you don't have to join and play for a while before you even realize what the rules are.

Once more let me reiterate that I still have an open challenge to anyone who thinks they can beat me using only Light style. I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong.


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Old 05-20-2002, 04:35 PM   #27
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You are assuming everybody would agree on any one standard and you should know that will never work. Different leagues should adopt the standards that they think will draw players.

Different strokes for different folks.

In regards to your challenge fighting in any one style would be foolish. I bet I can damage you in light but I would use other styles as any well balanced fighter should. If somebody could beat you using only blue then that would be an imbalance. Your challenge doesnt really prove anything.
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Old 05-20-2002, 04:49 PM   #28
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Post

Saber throw needs to be fixed too. I don't want saber throw removed from duels as you suggest just these changes:

1) saber throw from in close does little to no damage and a saber could be knocked to the groung as in SP. This will put an end to the backpeddling throwing whores.

2) lower the damage slightly that saber throw does this will make it less appealing to use throw as a primary means of attack.

The point is to make throw into a good couter attack to certian moves. It has its place in the game but its too powerful in its current form. It should be used as a counter attack not as a primary attack.
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Old 05-20-2002, 05:30 PM   #29
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Jump no kick

For 1.04

they should have the option to have jump without kick, kicking is for tekken man.

they should make all the power moves linear like the dfa,

they should make power moves harder to pull off, or make normal strikes more landable.

active blocking would be goodas it would be more like in the films then.

cant think of anything else.

dont play force servers so dont really care about that!

Jah
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Old 05-20-2002, 05:33 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX

Once more let me reiterate that I still have an open challenge to anyone who thinks they can beat me using only Light style. I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong.
hehe sounds like you are setting yourself up for an embarresment man
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Old 05-20-2002, 06:02 PM   #31
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Anyone know raven's offical email or what I can do to contact them? I know they might not read it, but heck, it would make me feel better to let out the steam that has built up inside me after they ruined this game with the 1.03 patch.
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Old 05-20-2002, 06:04 PM   #32
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Oh, one more thing. I am thinking about uninstalling jkii then reinstalling it so it has the original specifications, but... is there a way so I would only see the 1.02 servers? Thanks.
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Old 05-20-2002, 08:29 PM   #33
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I noticed you think the removal of the medium spin move is a good thing, I disagree.

I do agree that it can be a problem, but not if used right, I found it extremely useful in duels and fights. Perhaps if they make it more difficult to do, but not so hard so that it is obsolete. The spin now, if you can call it that, is clumbsy and too difficult to be used effectively. With this new patch, the only thing medium can do is the simple normal swings, the finsher, and the back sweep. Which is decent, but it is also a problem. The patch seemingly makes it more difficult to do combo's because there are less moves per button command. The small combo's in conjuction with the swings (which were faster before), and the spin made the medium stance such the widly used stance that it was. This patch has taken away the good qualities of it. They have made saber combat more like it was in sp, which is a bad thing. Sure, we all like long drawn out fights, but what they did to the sabers was horrible. The original programming for sabers in MP was much better then the original saber in SP. With the old style of combat, the moves could flow together better. With this new style, I feel like this is JK1 again. I really enjoyed the saber combat before this patch, now they have taken that away. I am going to uninstall this patch and go back to 1.02. If I cannot find enough 1.02 servers, I will be uninstalling JK2. Thank you raven, in your attempts to fix the game you've caused more problems then you fixed and completly ruined this game imo. I don't think I will be purchasing any more Raven games in the future. I was looking forward to SOFII: Double Helix, but if you guys can't even patch a game properly, I don't want to buy the game then have it ruined by a patch a few months later.

Well that's my rant. Please make the saber combat like it was in 1.02. It doesn't matter if you want the saber combat all long and drawn out, it's what we want. Sure some people like it long and drawn out, I am one of them, but this is not the way to do it.
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Old 05-20-2002, 09:49 PM   #34
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they should also make wall kicking the way it originaly was. Just hit the jump button once, not twice. Its not realistic to bunny hop to someone and then kick them in the head.

Artifex, think that idea is worthy of your list?
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Old 05-20-2002, 10:08 PM   #35
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Quote:
Saber throw needs to be fixed too. I don't want saber throw removed from duels as you suggest just these changes:

1) saber throw from in close does little to no damage and a saber could be knocked to the groung as in SP. This will put an end to the backpeddling throwing whores.

2) lower the damage slightly that saber throw does this will make it less appealing to use throw as a primary means of attack.

The point is to make throw into a good couter attack to certian moves. It has its place in the game but its too powerful in its current form. It should be used as a counter attack not as a primary attack.
I also forgot one other big thing that you can add to your list:

FORWARD STAB - we need a forward stab move in every stance. This will get us fighting face to face again as opposed to ass to ass. Back stab is meant to be a counter move or a surprise attack not a primary offensive move. How could there be a back stab and no forward stab. Jedi's haven't figured out this move yet? Come on. If you make these additions / changes to your list then it would be complete.
Peace!
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Old 05-20-2002, 10:36 PM   #36
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No, your suggestion would unduly cripple the dark side by giving it no way to heal. Also, Protect is no longer worthless. It, along with Dark Rage, can protect you from a one-hit kill after a knockdown.
Compare protect against Dark rage - Dark rage makes you INVINCIBLE while the power is active, whereas Protect uses your force bar as a shield bar, and a poor one at that. Where is the comparison? Protect might let you survive with a hp or two, but dark rage lets you ignore *IGNORE* the blow, jump up twice as fast, beat the living snot out of them and carry on. How is that not more powerful than Protect? My point WAS that the Dark side is more focused on damage and attack, whereas the Light side is focused on healing and defence - they are opposite viewpoints. Please bear in mind that this is *my* opinion on how the force is divided, but yes, this *might* not allow for balanced gameplay. I think that it needs testing and consideration (it may have been, in which case I stand corrected), rather than total dismissal. The above merely requires the Dark side player to concentrate on making a quick and brutal kill, while the light side player should be thinking more about defence than offence. Just an opinion, no need to jump on me. Sheesh.

I only offered an alternative idea to yours on Drain for consideration. That was all. I did not say yours was bad, I just offerend my own and my reasons for thinking it *might* be better suited. Up to you if you agree or not.

Quote:
Any idiot who does nothing but lightning, drain, lightning...ad nauseam will be quickly wiped out by a good player. For instance, Absorb requires only 10 points to turn on. if they use lightning on you, then you can cut absorb on in the middle of the blast and regain whatever force power they use up.
I *know* that. Do you not think I eliminate them for breakfast? (sometimes literally, I play when I feel like it). It is simply a tactic I have noted, and thought it particularly worthy of derision.

Quote:
Absorb only needed to be empowered in 1.02 because Drain was overpowered. If they cut the range in half as i suggest, that won't be a problem any longer. My Absorb suggestions stands.
I think then that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one, but I will point out that there are more considerations here than Drain alone - the pull/backstabbers, the grippers, the push-you-off-ledges-as-you-swingers, etc. In an extended fight against some of these you might want it for short periods (against the grippers), or for long periods (as you saber fight a pull/backstabber you is really only waiting for an opportunity to play his favourite move).

Quote:
Kicking is pathetically easy to avoid and counter. The addition of it to no-force games just expands on the attack options available--that is never a bad thing.
I was thinking of the people who kick you over, then kick you over again as you get up and try to move away, and who then do it again, and again, and again. Most of my problems are with people who spam one move, and against them I eventually leanr what is the best way to counter. That was my only concern here. I don't really object to the use of kicking on NF duels, but I'm still unhappy with Saber Throw.

Quote:
Simpler, yes. Better, no. I'd rather have a more complicated solution that fixes the problem than a simple one that doesn't. Whatever level you pick of Sight currently is of no consequence. I am talking about a proposed version of the game.
Not being able to see someone with lvl 3 Mind Trick at all even when you have level 2 Sight is ludicrous.
And why pray tell is it ludicrous? When you have person A who is better trained at hiding than person B is at spotting, do you not think they should be rewarded for spending their points thus, and sacrificing in others? I didn't provide a complete solution there, only an ALTERNATIVE as before. My reasons for that solution were as I stated above, no more. It is perhaps possible to allow people with sight 2 to detect level 3 at close range, but not long, and so on down the chain. At identical levels you have a choice - either they can see at medium range, or they can see only close up (most people use it close range anyway). This is very similar to your suggestion, and I wanted a solution that was simpler to code. It would fix the problem quite effectively, and would require more TEAMWORK from players (eg a "spotter" who looks out for cloaked players). I like teamwork. It's more rewarding.

Quote:
Let me clarify. A secondary attack could be initiated by being in extreme close range and hitting some combination like back+attack. That might swing some kind of punch, or kick, or whatever. I'll let the animators figure that out.
Fair enough, I suppsoe I wasn't really thinking about it like that (it was late OK?)

Quote:
I don't see any problem with usage there. It's very similar to the way kicking is now. Do you have problems saber fighting AND kicking?
You know, for someone who INVITED comments and suggestions, you are being very antsy about actually RECEIVING any. There is no need for that kind of condescending tone whatsoever. If you REALLY wanted comments, try being more constructive, rather than hinting that the suggester may be incompetent because they don't see things the way you do.

Quote:
Reread my comments about problems in 1.03. You can defend against Light style swings even while using a Force power such as Drain or Lightning. I'm simply saying that needs to be fixed.
And I was agreeing. Did you read what I said? Of course you shouldn't be able to block ANYTHING if you are busy doing something else. Light stance, red stance, puce stance, it doesn't matter.

Finally, about the multiple sabers/dual saber thing. My reasons for suggesting you fiddled them around a bit are thus: (I had hoped you would see them, oh well)
Quote:
mmm, slow single saber vs either twin sabers or a double bladed one? No chance
This is because Strong stance is slow. It may do a lot of damage, but compare it to a medium speed double ended attack - two blows doing reasonable damage in quick succession. Take one miss0swing and it's goodbye Kansas. Now compare it to twin stance - two blows in quick succession doing little damage, chance for a high rate of weak blows. Hmm, I swing my saber, miss you (or you ignore it and take the damage) as you step quickly in and pummel me senseless with your two sabers, one maybe *maybe* bouncing off my returning red saber, the other hammering my unprotected head? I suggested yellow as the "default" single saber stance because it was moderately fast and dealt moderate damage. It has no especial weak points as it strikes fast and returns to ready fast, while still retaining the ability to HURT and opponent. THOSE were my reasons for suggesting it. The damage could always be upped for medium or the speed of red increased for that matter, but you couldn't have a balanced substiution straight out of the box as it were, because you and I both KNOW that it would result in no-one touching the single saber stance - the other two would be too powerful.
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Old 05-20-2002, 11:46 PM   #37
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some great points, but i have to counter you on the kicking thing.
the reason i play on servers where force jump is 1, is to avoid the kick. i am starting to see people do nothing but run away, kick, run away, kick.... i even saw one person that didn't even draw their saber for an entire duel, and he won?
i am not saying to remove it completely, but i think it would be perfect as just a knockdown, with little or no damage dealt.
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Old 05-20-2002, 11:58 PM   #38
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I stated that before, and ArtifeX all but flamed me for it "kicking is so pathetically easy to avoid" were his words I believe...

I liked the original NF duels, and I have adapted to the new ones, and that's probably the only advice I can give really (one move I like remembering is that if they go for a double kick and didn't knock you down the first time, jump immediately after the first kick as if trying to kick them, and they will position themselves for a textbook facewalk as they automatically come in for their second kick :> )

Since kicking now requires a second tap of jump, you can perform it long after the original jump has been performed, so long as a suitable "surface" is available. Don't forget the standard "step sideways and slash just as they come in for a kick" move. Works fairly often too. And they look stoopid :>
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Old 05-20-2002, 11:59 PM   #39
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I think there's a simple but probably effective solution to pull-backstab:

If you have lvl 3 push, you should not be pulled to the ground unless you have fallen under the 'support level' (similar to the counter if you are standing still). Likewise, if you have lvl 3 pull, you should not be pushed to the ground unless you are below the support level. This would largely prevent people from spamming the pull-backstab, but keeping the backstab a powerful but situational move.
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Old 05-21-2002, 12:05 AM   #40
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Artifex, for someone who wants comments, you really are being rude to the other posters. Instead of lashing out at people just because they have a different opinion then you, try to see it form their point of view and take their opinion into consideration instead of dismissing it.
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