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Old 05-21-2002, 12:07 AM   #41
Ten Tigers
 
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Looks like Im a little late in getting to this thread. But here is my two cents anyways...

First of all, I am exceedingly glad that they put the single player animations for Grip into multiplayer. I love the way grip victims dangle now as opposed to the prepatch way of just standing or crouching in mid-air.

However grip is virtually useless for anything exept grip/dropping. And even that is not as effective as it used to be.

Grip takes a signifigant ammount of force, limits your mobility, and takes a long time to deal insignifigant damage. Generaly you will only kill someone with grip if they are on their last leg of health. And that's if you manage to keep them for the full duration, which all but the most inexperienced gammer should be able to do now that the mobility has been restricted.

So this move needs to either have it's damage increased, or it's range increased. Which is another point. In order to grip someone you have to get so close that you could choke them with your bare hand.

More damage or more range. The ability to choke the $hit out of someone like Lord Vader is one of the main reasons I got the game...


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-21-2002, 04:14 AM   #42
-thefly-
 
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Artifex has talked the talk...
.....and now he's walked the walk.

Check-out http://ladder.iglnet.com/ for the low-down.

Looks like ArtifeX IS an authority on the subject matter
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Old 05-21-2002, 06:05 AM   #43
Nathan Wind
 
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1 fundamental thing that artifex keeps saying that people should realize: making powers weaker only eliminates options.
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Old 05-21-2002, 06:39 AM   #44
Ten Tigers
 
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Congrats Artifex. Preach the WORD brotha'...


MORE power...
MORE options...


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-21-2002, 08:48 AM   #45
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Actually, grip is one of the more effective and useful dark side powers. Most of the time you aren't going to be using it for the damage side since it renders your opponent helpless for a few seconds after you finish using it.

The fact that you can swing them around into floors and stuff, or point them up into the air and fling them miles with force push obviously limit the range and usefulness of this power :>

Vader only ever used this power at close range too, so you already have that, and they were mooks, not jedi that he was choking.

I certainly agree that ArtifeX is damned good saber fighter, but that doesn't necessarily make him the authority on what makes a good change to the existing game. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and can have good ideas, but is ArtifeX a professional game tester, rather than a user with some ideas? I mean, the only REAL authority I would accept are a) a real life jedi, complete with REAL lightsaber (not the fake ones you can buy) or b) George Lucas coming in and telling what HE thought it should be.
Anyone else is just an opinion.

For those who keep citing the movies as a better source on what gets used and what doesn't, I might point you towards the StarWars RPGs, in particular the older d6 based system by West End Games (as it was then) - in that there was no pull/push as such, instead a telekinesis power. Grip was it's own power, but it was a specialised use of TK anyway. Force lightning was a separate power, as were heal and heal other (but those two weren't the magic healing of the game, just accelerated healing). Force absorb was for ENERGY, nor force powers, and primarily of use against blasters (See Empire Strikes back for when Vader Absorbs Han's blaster shot). No force protect, dark rage, energise, drain or mind trick. The closest to mind trick was Alter Mind, which was the trick Ben Kenobi used on the stormtroopers to make them think "these aren't the droids they were looking for". Saber throw wasn't even a power as I recall, but on that count I may be wrong. The powers in the RPG books were VERY closely based on what was seen to happen in the movies (and, later on, some books), rather than WHAT WOULD MAKE A GOOD POWER TO HAVE IN A COMPUTER GAME.
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Old 05-21-2002, 08:54 AM   #46
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Hmmm...
this is pretty moot point but Vader actually gripped an officer who was on different space ship in one of the movies. Probably several kilometers away, he did have visual contact via a monitor though.
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Old 05-21-2002, 09:01 AM   #47
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True...

I think the distance could have been measured in light-years to be honest.

Similarly though, that was only one occasion, and it certainly didn't make it into the games :> (RPG or otherwise).

That would be horribly broken - "Hello, my name is Darth Sniping-Grip. I'll kill you when you are but a dot on the horizon"
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Old 05-21-2002, 09:31 AM   #48
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Yes I think that could be somewhat amusing *shudder*.

Anyway nobody in their right mind would actually suggest adding something like that in the game. I actually just remembered that Vader didn't even see the person he gripped, the officer he saw in the screen was another one.
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Old 05-21-2002, 10:49 AM   #49
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Sorry if I offended anyone. My patience was running thin after replying to some people who had posted requests for changes to the game based off nothing but their inexperience. (*cough* bambers *cough*)

Quote:
Originally posted by Sutek


Compare protect against Dark rage - Dark rage makes you INVINCIBLE while the power is active, whereas Protect uses your force bar as a shield bar, and a poor one at that. Where is the comparison? Protect might let you survive with a hp or two, but dark rage lets you ignore *IGNORE* the blow, jump up twice as fast, beat the living snot out of them and carry on. How is that not more powerful than Protect? My point WAS that the Dark side is more focused on damage and attack, whereas the Light side is focused on healing and defence - they are opposite viewpoints. Please bear in mind that this is *my* opinion on how the force is divided, but yes, this *might* not allow for balanced gameplay. I think that it needs testing and consideration (it may have been, in which case I stand corrected), rather than total dismissal. The above merely requires the Dark side player to concentrate on making a quick and brutal kill, while the light side player should be thinking more about defence than offence. Just an opinion, no need to jump on me. Sheesh.
I agree that Dark rage is the more powerful of the two, but remember that you have to have 50% of your JM level Force Pool to even turn it on. Also, only 50% of the damage that you take is ignored. The rest is distributed to your shields and health as normal.

Quote:

I only offered an alternative idea to yours on Drain for consideration. That was all. I did not say yours was bad, I just offerend my own and my reasons for thinking it *might* be better suited. Up to you if you agree or not.

I *know* that. Do you not think I eliminate them for breakfast? (sometimes literally, I play when I feel like it). It is simply a tactic I have noted, and thought it particularly worthy of derision.

I think then that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one, but I will point out that there are more considerations here than Drain alone - the pull/backstabbers, the grippers, the push-you-off-ledges-as-you-swingers, etc. In an extended fight against some of these you might want it for short periods (against the grippers), or for long periods (as you saber fight a pull/backstabber you is really only waiting for an opportunity to play his favourite move).
I think Absorb is powerful enough in 1.02 to deal with any of those situations. I'd still like it to remain invisible though.

Quote:

I was thinking of the people who kick you over, then kick you over again as you get up and try to move away, and who then do it again, and again, and again. Most of my problems are with people who spam one move, and against them I eventually leanr what is the best way to counter. That was my only concern here. I don't really object to the use of kicking on NF duels, but I'm still unhappy with Saber Throw.
It's much more difficult to kick someone more than twice now because of the added air time you get from your initial jump. Most of the time you can get up before they can land a second one. Besides, be glad that they didn't backstab you while you were on the ground instead of kicking you.

Saber Throw in NF isn't a problem anymore. ChangKhan clarified there was a change to the forceDisable bitmask in 1.03 that was causing NF server to have saber throw.

Quote:

And why pray tell is it ludicrous? When you have person A who is better trained at hiding than person B is at spotting, do you not think they should be rewarded for spending their points thus, and sacrificing in others? I didn't provide a complete solution there, only an ALTERNATIVE as before. My reasons for that solution were as I stated above, no more. It is perhaps possible to allow people with sight 2 to detect level 3 at close range, but not long, and so on down the chain. At identical levels you have a choice - either they can see at medium range, or they can see only close up (most people use it close range anyway). This is very similar to your suggestion, and I wanted a solution that was simpler to code. It would fix the problem quite effectively, and would require more TEAMWORK from players (eg a "spotter" who looks out for cloaked players). I like teamwork. It's more rewarding.
While a "spotter" might be fine for team games. A duel match with this setup would result in someone with lvl 3 mindtrick being invisible the whole time with no way for the opponent to counter it unless they changed their force setup to include lvl 3 sight.

Your point is also valid for the person spending the points for lvl 2 Sight. If he can't see lvl 3 Tricks at all, then why buy level 2 at all?

All-or-nothing is never desirable over a more analog solution.

Quote:

Fair enough, I suppsoe I wasn't really thinking about it like that (it was late OK?)

You know, for someone who INVITED comments and suggestions, you are being very antsy about actually RECEIVING any. There is no need for that kind of condescending tone whatsoever. If you REALLY wanted comments, try being more constructive, rather than hinting that the suggester may be incompetent because they don't see things the way you do.
Again, sorry if i offended you. I do believe my comments to you were constructive.

Quote:

And I was agreeing. Did you read what I said? Of course you shouldn't be able to block ANYTHING if you are busy doing something else. Light stance, red stance, puce stance, it doesn't matter.
The small comment you made about a person not defending themselves was buried at the end of a paragraph that began with you disagreeing with what I said. It was a vague enough statement to lead me to believe that it also was disagreeing.

Quote:

Finally, about the multiple sabers/dual saber thing. My reasons for suggesting you fiddled them around a bit are thus: (I had hoped you would see them, oh well)


This is because Strong stance is slow. It may do a lot of damage, but compare it to a medium speed double ended attack - two blows doing reasonable damage in quick succession. Take one miss0swing and it's goodbye Kansas. Now compare it to twin stance - two blows in quick succession doing little damage, chance for a high rate of weak blows. Hmm, I swing my saber, miss you (or you ignore it and take the damage) as you step quickly in and pummel me senseless with your two sabers, one maybe *maybe* bouncing off my returning red saber, the other hammering my unprotected head? I suggested yellow as the "default" single saber stance because it was moderately fast and dealt moderate damage. It has no especial weak points as it strikes fast and returns to ready fast, while still retaining the ability to HURT and opponent. THOSE were my reasons for suggesting it. The damage could always be upped for medium or the speed of red increased for that matter, but you couldn't have a balanced substiution straight out of the box as it were, because you and I both KNOW that it would result in no-one touching the single saber stance - the other two would be too powerful.
I was speaking about the two new styles as if they included all the changes I suggested to Light and Medium in the non-"radical" section including lengthened range and slower attack speed. Also, I'm adding a section to my L & M requests that will include shortening the swing arcs of both of those stances to make up for the slower swing speed. That way the swings will be controllable, but still have greater swing speed than the strong style.


Artifex *ASC*
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Old 05-21-2002, 10:53 AM   #50
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I was a little hard on Sutek, but Bambers deserved what he got and more for posting flamebait.

Quote:
Originally posted by Azraelt
Artifex, for someone who wants comments, you really are being rude to the other posters. Instead of lashing out at people just because they have a different opinion then you, try to see it form their point of view and take their opinion into consideration instead of dismissing it.


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Old 05-21-2002, 11:04 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sutek
Actually, grip is one of the more effective and useful dark side powers. Most of the time you aren't going to be using it for the damage side since it renders your opponent helpless for a few seconds after you finish using it.
I still think half your force pool would be better spent on Push/Pull, Drain or Dark Rage. Especially if you're playing against a light-sider. Grip is just too expensive for the minimal usefulness it has right now.

Quote:

The fact that you can swing them around into floors and stuff, or point them up into the air and fling them miles with force push obviously limit the range and usefulness of this power :>
Are you saying that the only usefulness is swinging them around and using the 'jedi cannon'? I'm really not tryin to get on your case here--i just am not sure what you mean.

I haven't noticed any damage from swinging people around into walls and such. Anyone seen this?

Quote:

Vader only ever used this power at close range too, so you already have that, and they were mooks, not jedi that he was choking.

I certainly agree that ArtifeX is damned good saber fighter, but that doesn't necessarily make him the authority on what makes a good change to the existing game. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and can have good ideas, but is ArtifeX a professional game tester, rather than a user with some ideas? I mean, the only REAL authority I would accept are a) a real life jedi, complete with REAL lightsaber (not the fake ones you can buy) or b) George Lucas coming in and telling what HE thought it should be.
Anyone else is just an opinion.
1. Professional playtesters are the ones who put their stamp of approval on 1.02 and 1.03.
2. George Lucas doesn't know dick about making a fun computer game. I trust him to know his characters and his universe, but never to design a game.

Quote:

For those who keep citing the movies as a better source on what gets used and what doesn't, I might point you towards the StarWars RPGs, in particular the older d6 based system by West End Games (as it was then) - in that there was no pull/push as such, instead a telekinesis power. Grip was it's own power, but it was a specialised use of TK anyway. Force lightning was a separate power, as were heal and heal other (but those two weren't the magic healing of the game, just accelerated healing). Force absorb was for ENERGY, nor force powers, and primarily of use against blasters (See Empire Strikes back for when Vader Absorbs Han's blaster shot). No force protect, dark rage, energise, drain or mind trick. The closest to mind trick was Alter Mind, which was the trick Ben Kenobi used on the stormtroopers to make them think "these aren't the droids they were looking for". Saber throw wasn't even a power as I recall, but on that count I may be wrong. The powers in the RPG books were VERY closely based on what was seen to happen in the movies (and, later on, some books), rather than WHAT WOULD MAKE A GOOD POWER TO HAVE IN A COMPUTER GAME.
Pen and paper rpg's are a completely different medium. What is fun on paper may be boring as hell on a computer. I would rather them deviate from the Star Wars movies a bit in favor of a better game than hold hard and true to only what we've seen in the films.


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Old 05-21-2002, 11:05 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by -thefly-
Artifex has talked the talk...
.....and now he's walked the walk.

Check-out http://ladder.iglnet.com/ for the low-down.

Looks like ArtifeX IS an authority on the subject matter
Thanks. Check the *ASC* site for an announcement regarding the prize(s) I won.

http://www.oculis.org/asc/


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Old 05-21-2002, 12:22 PM   #53
Orangina_Rouge
 
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I mostly agree with what you proposed Artifex

I also proposed something to maybe balance stances :Stun motion

Also i think that push/pull must be dealt with to have somewhat little effect on saber users like in SP ( u can read this too in the thread i linked above )
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Old 05-21-2002, 12:56 PM   #54
Nathan Wind
 
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Im glad to see artifex can defend himself, espicially against the ever popular "what George Lucas wanted" argument.

One thing i have a big problem with is invisible absorb though. It really changes the way it is used. If that was the only change in .02, it would still give the light siders a huge edge. I guess a possible counter to this would be allow people with force sight to gather more information (such as absorb status) on people, rather than just being able to see them through walls.

But that too would drastically alter the game play.

I cannot see how an invisible absorb would make the game play even. The only purpose for it that ive seen in arguments so far are in a "wouldnt it be neat if..." function.

It makes it uneven, i cannot stress this enough. Better to make drain/dark rage invisible as well.
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Old 05-21-2002, 01:55 PM   #55
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Honestly, I have very little by way of problems with 1.03. I realize that that's not a terribly popular view to be espousing in this thread, but hey, what the hell.

I actually like the increased blocking, and now that we have information on how to tone down blocking as a server-side variable, I hope they leave it as is. If you want to dumb down blocking on your server, go for it. If not, that's fine too.

As far as the force powers go, I think heal might've been nerfed a BIT too much, but I don't have that much problem with it, given the corresponding nerf to drain. I wouldn't mind if both were beefed up a bit, though.

As far as grip goes, I've been trying to come up with a way to make it more useful, and as long as absorb exists and remains invisible, it won't be very useful. I think maybe the best way to handle grip would be to have it still immobilize you, but not damage you, if you have the same level absorb as the level of grip used on you. IE: if I approach and grip with lvl 2, and the other guy has absorb 2, he should remain stuck in mid-air, absorbing the force energy, but not taking damage. Thus, he'd still have to push me or sabre throw at me to get me to drop him. This may actually be in the game already. I haven't tested it.

Push and pull are fine as they are. Prior to the ass-master phenomenon, they were never much of a problem anyway. They just added another dimension to game play.

Absorb must stay invisible. This is the only way for it to be an effective power. If it's visible, people will simply wait out the absorbers. There's no benefit to dark side in making drain invisible, especially given that they have to target it visually. That said, I think that a bit higher force consumption may be in order for it. Or a larger initial hit to your force pool, if not an upping of the consumption rate. This should stay constant at ALL levels of absorb. IE: lvl 1, 2, and 3, all take 20% of your pool to activate, and consume at a rate of, say, a bar per 2 seconds or what have you. The effect of having lvl 1, 2, or 3, is in the countering of other powers. This is already implemented in the game to an extent. IE: if someone attacks me with lightning 3 and I only have absorb 2, yes, I'll absorb the force power from the attack, but I'll still take damage. This is how things should stay, I think. IE: if a guy attacks you with drain 2 and you have absorb 1, you should be able to only reduce the speed at which your force power is drained, but you WILL be drained. I would like to see drain suck health and not force, though. That'd make life interesting, I think, and would make it a more "offensive" power, in keeping with the dark side theme.

Dark rage and protect I hardly ever use, so I can't really comment on them. Mind trick should be balanced a bit better in correspondence with force seeing, I think. Either mind trick at higher levels of force seeing would render force seeing useless (IE: MT3 and FS2 means you can't see the guy), or force seeing needs to be nerfed in terms of duration.

Now, as for sabre combat, I wouldn't mind seeing the damage of regular swings returned to 1.02 levels in terms of the regular swings, so long as the blocking remains the same. I think that'd be a good balance, personally. Light stance is far from useless in my book, since it's the best defensive stance out there. It'll block more stuff than medium stance, and isn't really designed to deal out damage. Medium stance is, I think, well balanced in terms of its damage, speed, and blocking potential. Strong stance is better than it was, but I think it should chain a BIT more easily, maybe. I hardly ever use strong stance anyway, though. I much prefer a faster, more defensive style of combat (but hey, what do you expect from a guy who plays mostly light-side). I like to wait my opponent out until he makes a crucial mistake, then go in with medium stance. That or charge the guy and hit him a ton of times with light or medium stance. One or the other.

Now, as for the backstab moves....these are a HUGE problem. I don't think that reducing blocking will help solve this problem either. I think that as long as a one-hit kill move exists in the game, and is unblockable, people will use it. Especially if there's no downside to using it. People don't really have to run around backwards to do this move, that's just the inexperienced ass-masters out there. There are plenty of folks who can run up to you, do a quick 180, and backstab you. Now, while this isn't so much of a problem with a one-on-one fight (I usually just keep doing flip kicks to piss the other guy off), when you get on a server with 5 or 6 people doing the backstab, it can be pretty hard to defend against. Especially if you want to get any kills, because the entire group of players will cluster into the center trying to do a backstab that kills 4 guys at once. So, even if you play at the edge of this mosh pit, you'll still end up low man on the totem. Personally, I think the backstab should have its damage severely nerfed. I don't think it should be a one hit kill. It should remain unblockable (in keeping with the "surprise!" theme of the move), but should deal out the same amount of damage as a regular swing, or less, perhaps, in the case of strong stance or medium stance's swings, since they can hit multiple times. Grand total for damage for any of these swings should not be higher than, say, 60 or 70 for strong stance, and less as you go down the ladder of stances. If this was changed in correspondence with bringing back the swing damage of 1.02, I think the game would still play fairly quickly, but still offer fun to guys like me who prefer a longer duel. Finally, the backstab should be made absolutely stationary. When you execute it, you CANNOT move. Not vertically, or laterally. The recover time can be the same, if they nerf the damage, though.

Put simply, one hit kills do NOT belong in a game like this, unless ALL hits are one hit kills (or one or two hit kills). Why? Because it inherently unbalances the game and reduces combat to a series of people doing nothing BUT that move. Unless a one-hit kill has SERIOUS drawbacks (IE: what they did with DFA, which was, in my opinion, absolutely the right way to handle that), people will spam it. Plain and simple. Because they CAN, and because there's no way to stop it and no cost associated with it.

I'm a big believer in game balance through a cost-benefit system. You can have high benefits, but there have to be high costs associated with that benefit, especially in a game like this, where you have such a variety of styles of play, force powers, and sabre moves.

Anyway, back to the patch. As far as guns go, I have no problem with them. I've played CTF and FFA with guns and have had NO problems killing plenty of people, even with the higher ammo consumption. If you want more ammo on your maps, edit the maps and put more ammo in. Though personally, I don't think it's needed.

That's it! Those are my views. To be perfectly honest, I still very much enjoy 1.03, even with all the nerfing and increased blocking. If they could fix the backstab, I'd say they'd have a damn fine game on their hands, and would be perfectly happy to play it. 1.03 without the backstab would be great. The above changes, I think, would make the game better, though. Just my opinion, based on my own experiences.
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Old 05-21-2002, 02:01 PM   #56
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Question Invisible Absorb

I think having Absorb invisible until Force-attacked is a good idea. The Jedi use the Force passively so their skills would be easier hidden. The Sith have a more aggressive and generally more obvious Force use.

I read somewhere that in battle, the Jedi use the Force to increase their offensive and defensive capabilities while the Sith try to break the spirit of the Jedi. I wonder if this could be incorporated somehow into JK2...



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Old 05-21-2002, 02:33 PM   #57
Nathan Wind
 
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Try and stay away from the theoretical please!!

I donít care what George Lucas wants, or what you think jedi SHOULD play like as far as keeping in theme with Star Wars. These issues must be abandoned with the conclusion of the initial planning phase.

THE POINT of a visible absorb is for darkies to wait for it to go off to use their powers. IT was NOT meant to prevent dark powers from hurting lighties, but to discourage them from using it. (Even though now the opposite can be proven with .03). THERE CAN BE NO COUNTER FOR THIS!! There needs to be an instantaneous heavily damaging long distance dark force power to even come close to making up for this, i.e. force destruction.

This would totally change the game pace and dynamic, as Iím sure anyone could see.

These powers meant people had to get down and dirty. Light couldnít turn on absorb until it was proven necessary, and even then it had to remain off to keep the user's force pools high enough for other viable means of combat.

Dark siders SHOULD have waited until they could tell it was off to use their power, thatís the dark strategy. In an ffa with major action going on at once, a player couldnít be bothered to be stuck listening for what they think could be absorb turning on.


Why play dark then? Seriously? Why waste time in powers that work on an if-fy (at best) basis?

The fact that all dark powers take time and absorb is instant mean absorb has the upper hand. It was fine the way it was. The system works no other way as is.

In order to balance it, NO force powers what so ever should be accessible to someone who has absorb on, including jump. This is the only draw back severe enough to balance the fact that an instantaneous power that counters all others is now invisible.

I do not believe in weakening some aspects (neutering them effectively) to balance a game out however. Rather empower the ones that do balance it out (in the grand scheme of things mind you)

The 2 things I am most passionate about are the guns and the invisible absorb, and you hit them both. It is obvious that you are a light sided saberist and do not play at tournament level games.

People, do your homework. That gives you the most credibility. And stay away from the theoretical. Thatís silly. George Lucas did not make these games! Is it not better to liken JO to DF2:JK than to the movies?

I donít know how "political corruption" can manifest itself as a playable force power.

And for the record, grip is now useless if it wasnít before. Dropping was the only time it was useful and now that you walk thatís done with too.

Might as well make the game light side only to begin with.
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Old 05-21-2002, 02:52 PM   #58
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_paraphrased_
Quote:
Originally posted by Solo4114
Honestly, I have very little by way of problems with 1.03. I realize that that's not a terribly popular view to be espousing in this thread, but hey, what the hell.

I actually like the increased blocking, and now that we have information on how to tone down blocking as a server-side variable, I hope they leave it as is...
I still think using server variables to tweak each individual server would cause a lot of confusion. Imagine being new to FPS's and not understanding why the rules for the same gametype keep changing based on which server you join. Which ruleset would you then practice if you wanted to compete in a clan or ladder later? The vanilla default values will always be played more than anything else. I'm hoping that these will be set to something that's conducive to game balance already, rather than forcing admins to stray from them.

Quote:

As far as the force powers go, I think heal might've been nerfed a BIT too much, but I don't have that much problem with it, given the corresponding nerf to drain. I wouldn't mind if both were beefed up a bit, though.

As far as grip goes, I've been trying to come up with a way to make it more useful, and as long as absorb exists and remains invisible, it won't be very useful. I think maybe the best way to handle grip would be to have it still immobilize you...
Think what that would allow in team games. Your buddy holds the Absorber, you do a backsweep or DFA on the immobile and helpless opponent. There'd be no way to defend against that if it was done properly and swiftly.

Quote:

Push and pull are fine as they are. Prior to the ass-master phenomenon, they were never much of a problem anyway. They just added another dimension to game play.

Absorb must stay invisible. This is the only way for it to be an effective power. If it's visible, people will simply wait out the absorbers. There's no benefit to dark side in making drain invisible, especially given that they have to target it visually. That said, I think that a bit higher force consumption may be in order for it...
Absorb's initial use cost needs to remain the same, otherwise Drainers would be able to keep your force power drained with no chance of countering them. As it is now, if you can get out of line-of-sight for 2 or 3 seconds, you can cut Absorb back on long enough to defend against any follow-up force attacks.

Quote:

Now, as for sabre combat, I wouldn't mind seeing the damage of regular swings returned to 1.02 levels in terms of the regular swings, so long as the blocking remains the same. I think that'd be a good balance, personally. Light stance is far from useless in my book, since it's the best defensive stance out there...
Let me once more dispell the myth of Light Stance as the best defensive stance. My research has shown that is has the worst defensive capabilities of all 3 stances, and is worse in 1.03 than it is in 1.02! A Light Stance defender can have his saber batted about like a windsock in a thunderstorm by someone using the Strong Stance. This means that all these people who say that they just block a swing then counterattack are relying on luck to determine whether or not they can counterattack after a block. Against a Strong Stance swing, there's a very high chance that your saber will be knocked away, makin a counter-attack impossible and opening you up to the second swing in a Strong combo.

You can also penetrate Light Defenses 100% at close range with Strong, and to a lesser degree, Medium.

Quote:

Now, as for the backstab moves....these are a HUGE problem. I don't think that reducing blocking will help solve this problem either. I think that as long as a one-hit kill move exists in the game, and is unblockable, people will use it. Especially if there's no downside to using it....

Put simply, one hit kills do NOT belong in a game like this, unless ALL hits are one hit kills (or one or two hit kills). Why? Because it inherently unbalances the game and reduces combat to a series of people doing nothing BUT that move. Unless a one-hit kill has SERIOUS drawbacks (IE: what they did with DFA, which was, in my opinion, absolutely the right way to handle that), people will spam it. Plain and simple. Because they CAN, and because there's no way to stop it and no cost associated with it.
I fervently agree about cost vs. benefit. All of my suggestions were an attempt to balance the cost/benefit ratio of everything that I thought was out of whack. However, I do think that the benefits of the DFA are now negligable. They need to add a bit more bite to that move, as it's the most dangerous move to execute now.


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Old 05-21-2002, 03:04 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
(snip)

THE POINT of a visible absorb is for darkies to wait for it to go off to use their powers. IT was NOT meant to prevent dark powers from hurting lighties, but to discourage them from using it. (Even though now the opposite can be proven with .03). THERE CAN BE NO COUNTER FOR THIS!! There needs to be an instantaneous heavily damaging long distance dark force power to even come close to making up for this, i.e. force destruction.

This would totally change the game pace and dynamic, as Iím sure anyone could see.
Nathan, I understand what you're saying, but if you listen carefully you can hear when they have absorb turned on. Even at quite a distance, and you can hear it very clearly when it is first turned on. If you can't hear it, then turn off the music and/or use headphones. Trust me, it's there for you to hear if you learn to.

Lightning would seem to fit the bill for what you want anyway if you're talking about instant-hit. The range is somewhat limited, but duel maps are quite small anyway. You can also use a quick tap of Drain to test whether they have absorb on or not--it uses up very little Force and gives them back just as little.

I would actually say that the addition of a long-range, instant-hit damage power like Force Destruction would help the light sider rather than hinder him. When you're that far away, you can't hear whether his absorb is on or not, so you'd have to fire off a round to check--that Force you used would get transferred to him if you were wrong. I'd just hang out at long range and let my opponent expend all of his Force doing that, then move in for the kill.

Quote:

These powers meant people had to get down and dirty. Light couldnít turn on absorb until it was proven necessary, and even then it had to remain off to keep the user's force pools high enough for other viable means of combat.

Dark siders SHOULD have waited until they could tell it was off to use their power, thatís the dark strategy. In an ffa with major action going on at once, a player couldnít be bothered to be stuck listening for what they think could be absorb turning on.


Why play dark then? Seriously? Why waste time in powers that work on an if-fy (at best) basis?

The fact that all dark powers take time and absorb is instant mean absorb has the upper hand. It was fine the way it was. The system works no other way as is.

In order to balance it, NO force powers what so ever should be accessible to someone who has absorb on, including jump. This is the only draw back severe enough to balance the fact that an instantaneous power that counters all others is now invisible.

I do not believe in weakening some aspects (neutering them effectively) to balance a game out however. Rather empower the ones that do balance it out (in the grand scheme of things mind you)

The 2 things I am most passionate about are the guns and the invisible absorb, and you hit them both. It is obvious that you are a light sided saberist and do not play at tournament level games.

People, do your homework. That gives you the most credibility. And stay away from the theoretical. Thatís silly. George Lucas did not make these games! Is it not better to liken JO to DF2:JK than to the movies?

I donít know how "political corruption" can manifest itself as a playable force power.

And for the record, grip is now useless if it wasnít before. Dropping was the only time it was useful and now that you walk thatís done with too.

Might as well make the game light side only to begin with.
Good thoughts overall, though. Sounds like we agree on most everything. If you want to see what I mean by the absorb sound, then watch the *ASC* site for when my game server goes up and drop by when i'm there. I'll demonstrate it for you.


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Old 05-21-2002, 03:08 PM   #60
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in duels, its fine.

im all about the ffa though
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Old 05-21-2002, 03:41 PM   #61
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Lightbulb One more thinf

I haven't had a chance to read all the postings so if I repeat someone else's post I apologize in advance.

I read the changes and I thought they were fantastic. The radical changes were a bit far-fetched but they would be excellent to see.

I would add one thing, the DFA should be able to turn in the air again. It should NOT be nearly as strong as it is but with out the ability to turn it is too easily avoided, any NewB can move one inch left or right, and it's suicide to use it against anyone that has any skill. It is an excellent move that has been ruined by over use to rack up points in FFA. Bring it back and lower its power!

Also can we please speed the dang game up, its SO SLOW with this dumb update. I switched back to 1.02 after playing for a week on 1.03 and it felt like I was playing with force speed on even though I didn't have force powers.
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Old 05-21-2002, 04:11 PM   #62
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Angry Light stance garbage

Previous posting:
"A Light Stance defender can have his saber batted about like a windsock in a thunderstorm by someone using the Strong Stance. This means that all these people who say that they just block a swing then counterattack are relying on luck to determine whether or not they can counterattack after a block. Against a Strong Stance swing, there's a very high chance that your saber will be knocked away, makin a counter-attack impossible and opening you up to the second swing in a Strong combo.

You can also penetrate Light Defenses 100% at close range with Strong, and to a lesser degree, Medium."
____________________________________
Ok people I am sick of reading this nonsense about how poor light stance users are getting killed by heavy stance. First off it makes sense that in a WEAK stance a STRONG stance will defeat your block. The point of a STRONG stance is STRENGTH!!

Why the heck would you use a SLOW AND EASILY BLOCKABLE stance? That would be more useless than the DFA is now.

There is suppossed to be a positive and a negative for each stance. The positive for Blue is a fast swing and the ability to be quick on your feet while swinging. The negative SHOULD be a all around WEAKNESS including you blocking. If not you could stand still and wait for a RED stance swing block and hit two-four times before he recovered, that would be far to easy.

By the way BLUE stance has new moves, faster speed, and a lethal one hit backstab (more nonsense). Yet you still think its being unfairly treated by the big bad RED stance.

If you get hit by a RED swing in BLUE you REALLY need to work on your movement. RED swings are SOOOO SLOW that you have to be caught in a mistake to get hit or mess up your timing to get hit. If YOU can't avoid a RED swing YOU SUCK and should go back to playing Super Mario Brothers with your little brother.
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Old 05-21-2002, 04:13 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX


Again, if you make the backstabs do the same amount of damage as a normal swing, then why do the damn backstab in the first place???

Hey Artifex,

I have a lot of respect for the research you have done here and in previous articles. I agree with a lot you have said here but I do disagree with the statement above.

I think the reason to do a backstab (even if it does the same damage as a normal swing) is that you have been caught in a bad position and it's a way to recover from it. It is an option but not the most powerful one.

I think we can both agree that when fighting it is preferable to be facing your opponent. Your proposed system of blocking demonstrates the spirit of this.

Therefore, if you find yourself with your back to your opponent, chances are that you have been outmaneuvered. Like being knocked down, you should be vulnerable and therefore the emphasis should be on recovering and not finishing the fight outright.

Also, maybe I'm missing something here (and please correct me if I'm wrong) but if person A approaches the back of person B and they both attack, person B is going to inflict more damage even though person B is more exposed (no saber in the way to block the blow). The exception would be if person A did a DFA but the set up time precludes taking advantage of the situation consistenly. This just seems off to me.

Sure, I would like to see normal swings become more effective but I feel that backstab should be seen as a way to recover from getting into a bad situation and not as a primary mode of attack.

And, yes, the above sounds very theoretical but I do play a lot and don't have a problem taking on people spamming the backstab. My main issue is that my immersion into the game is destroyed since watching people run backwards in fights hardly resembles saber fighting and the game has become less fun because of it.

Oh, and congratulations on your tourney wins. Are there any demos available?
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Old 05-21-2002, 05:09 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sutek
I mean, the only REAL authority I would accept are a) a real life jedi, complete with REAL lightsaber (not the fake ones you can buy) or b) George Lucas coming in and telling what HE thought it should be.

a) Why don't you hop over to alt.grip.reality and look for a REAL Jedi.

b) You would want Lucas to tell us what should be in JKII? He doesn't even know what should be in a Star Wars movie anymore (ooh...snap) But maybe I'm being to harsh on ole Georgey...I mean JarJar was a good idea right?...right?
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Old 05-21-2002, 05:37 PM   #65
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Re: Light stance garbage

Quote:
Originally posted by FatalStrike
Previous posting:
"A Light Stance defender can have his saber batted about like a windsock in a thunderstorm by someone using the Strong Stance. This means that all these people who say that they just block a swing then counterattack are relying on luck to determine whether or not they can counterattack after a block. Against a Strong Stance swing, there's a very high chance that your saber will be knocked away, makin a counter-attack impossible and opening you up to the second swing in a Strong combo.

You can also penetrate Light Defenses 100% at close range with Strong, and to a lesser degree, Medium."
____________________________________
Ok people I am sick of reading this nonsense about how poor light stance users are getting killed by heavy stance. First off it makes sense that in a WEAK stance a STRONG stance will defeat your block. The point of a STRONG stance is STRENGTH!!

Why the heck would you use a SLOW AND EASILY BLOCKABLE stance? That would be more useless than the DFA is now.

There is suppossed to be a positive and a negative for each stance. The positive for Blue is a fast swing and the ability to be quick on your feet while swinging. The negative SHOULD be a all around WEAKNESS including you blocking. If not you could stand still and wait for a RED stance swing block and hit two-four times before he recovered, that would be far to easy.

By the way BLUE stance has new moves, faster speed, and a lethal one hit backstab (more nonsense). Yet you still think its being unfairly treated by the big bad RED stance.

If you get hit by a RED swing in BLUE you REALLY need to work on your movement. RED swings are SOOOO SLOW that you have to be caught in a mistake to get hit or mess up your timing to get hit. If YOU can't avoid a RED swing YOU SUCK and should go back to playing Super Mario Brothers with your little brother.
ah, I was saying Light stance sucks--yes, but complaining--no.

I was simply trying to enlighten someone who thought Light stance was an effective style.


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Old 05-21-2002, 07:54 PM   #66
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In my experience, every saber style can be effective if the duelist has the proper skill. I've seen a light stance Jedi take on 3 heavy and 2 medium stance at once and win. No, he wasn't spamming it either, he had timed, precise strikes then put them into a combo. Light can be VERY effective. It's all about dodging. With the 1.03 patch, alot of things that changed though.... *sigh*
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Old 05-22-2002, 01:13 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sutek
Actually, grip is one of the more effective and useful dark side powers. Most of the time you aren't going to be using it for the damage side since it renders your opponent helpless for a few seconds after you finish using it.

The fact that you can swing them around into floors and stuff, or point them up into the air and fling them miles with force push obviously limit the range and usefulness of this power :>

Vader only ever used this power at close range too, so you already have that, and they were mooks, not jedi that he was choking.

I disagree with you on everything except the recovery time, and the Jedi Cannon. And even then I think it's lame. Grip was designed to be a damaging choke attack. Now it's just another push/pull move. I would rather have a damage increase than recovery time. You already get this from pulling someone. And as for the Jedi Cannon. I like the innovation behind it, but the fact that it is one of the only two things that makes Grip useful is weak.

Smacking someone into walls an such does no damage whatsoever. So that in no way balance anything out.

I still say a range increase would be a good start. Because a number of times, Vader would use Grip on someone who was thousands of miles away. As long as he could see them, he could Grip them. Now Im not saying Grip should be Line Of Sight. But something a little outside of melee range would be nice. This wouldnt even affect any of the counters to Grip. Push/Pull have the greatest range of all the force powers. Absorb is irrelivant as it is a defensive power. You could be Gripped from accross the map and Absorb would still work. You can always counter Grip a Grip. And even a thrown Thermal Detonator would still reach a Jedi. Never underestimate a Stormtrooper rifle. They can kill you in seconds if your not deflecting with your lightsaber.

So basicly I am with ArtifeX's school of logic. Which is people will use what works. If only one or two things work, be prepared to see a WHOLE lot of people only using one or two things...

Im not kissing his ass or anything, I just belive he is right.

We would see a lot less Grip/Droppers if Grip itself were more effective. However Grip/Dropping is effective too so it would not disappear, just balance out the use of Grip.


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-22-2002, 04:44 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX

Think what that would allow in team games. Your buddy holds the Absorber, you do a backsweep or DFA on the immobile and helpless opponent. There'd be no way to defend against that if it was done properly and swiftly.
True, but if they made the DFA and backstab not one-hit kills, this wouldn't be a problem. Plus, you still have the ability to push or throw your way out of the grip. Without having some sort of benefit to Grip, it becomes a useless power against lightside jedi. And as a lightside jedi, believe me, I know. If someone turns on grip, I just laugh and turn on absorb. If they're lucky, they may catch me and drop me before I turn it on or before it breaks the grip, but 9 out of 10 times, I can stop them from gripping me.


Quote:
Absorb's initial use cost needs to remain the same, otherwise Drainers would be able to keep your force power drained with no chance of countering them. As it is now, if you can get out of line-of-sight for 2 or 3 seconds, you can cut Absorb back on long enough to defend against any follow-up force attacks.
Agreed. I think that the consumption rate after the initial activation should be a bit faster, though. Otherwise, grip becomes the all-purpose cleaner of sorts, making it impossible to beat a lightside jedi with force powers, if the lightsider has force mana left.


Quote:
Let me once more dispell the myth of Light Stance as the best defensive stance. My research has shown that is has the worst defensive capabilities of all 3 stances, and is worse in 1.03 than it is in 1.02! A Light Stance defender can have his saber batted about like a windsock in a thunderstorm by someone using the Strong Stance. This means that all these people who say that they just block a swing then counterattack are relying on luck to determine whether or not they can counterattack after a block. Against a Strong Stance swing, there's a very high chance that your saber will be knocked away, makin a counter-attack impossible and opening you up to the second swing in a Strong combo.

You can also penetrate Light Defenses 100% at close range with Strong, and to a lesser degree, Medium.

I have to disagree with you on this. I realize that in a head-to-head fight with a strong stance user, a light stance user will probably get their sabre batted aside. But that's only if they're dumb enough to stand still and let the strong stance user smack them around. A sabre fight will not be a static affair. If you're using light stance for defense, you should be rolling, flipping, kicking, etc. Staying mobile, or letting them hit your defenses and backing up if and when they break through. I do pretty well with light stance usually, and can defend myself relatively easily. It doesn't block everything, nor should it. But it does do a hell of a lot more for blocking than it used to. Yes, strong stance can bash through the defenses, and it should be able to. But there's no reason you shouldn't get the hell out of Dodge if they do bash through your defenses. As such, light stance arguably gives you a crucial moment to RUN, whereas you'd be kibble had you not been defending yourself.

Light stance isn't useless, and it's not an uber stance. From what I can tell from my own play experience, it blocks the best of the three stances (or at least blocks the most consistently). While that doesn't mean that it's an impenetrable shield, it does mean that the stance can hold its own now and actually has a benefit to its cost. It's fast and good on defense, but weak on attack.

As far as the DFA/Backstab argument goes, I still stand by my position that there should be no one hit kills in this game. As you've said, people will use what works. IF there's an unblockable one-hit kill, reducing blocking, changing force powers, etc., will do nothing to stop people from spamming it. Why? Because they CAN. I agree with you, though, that DFA may have been a bit TOO nerfed. It should be strong and capable of dealing out siginificant damage, since it does leave you open and vulnerable for about 2 - 3 seconds or so (from what it seems -- I haven't timed it).

Ultimately, I just want the game to be balanced and fun. I think that blocking makes the game more fun, since it's less of a swing-fest, which was how 1.02 felt to me. That version felt like people would just run and swing then back away, because of the lack of blocking. With blocking added, you can actually charge a guy and stand toe to toe with him for a bit. It's more of a sabre fight and less of a jousting match. I could stand to see blocking toned down on FFA and CTF servers (but leave it as it is on duel servers), but I don't want things to go back to 1.02. That won't be a problem, though, since I HIGHLY doubt that Raven will release a "reversion" patch or something. That'd just be goofy, since 1.02 allows people to still play the old way if they want to.

This is one of the things that kind of puzzles me about people who piss and moan about the failures of 1.03 and how they long for the days of 1.02; how 1.02 was the best game EVER and 1.03 TOTALLY FUBARED it. If you don't like it so much, DON'T PLAY IT. Go back to 1.02. No one's stopping you, and there are plenty of servers out there playing 1.02.

Honestly, I think that a big part of the underlying hubub about 1.03 is the fact that Raven "chose" to change the style of play from one which "supported" people who liked 1.02 to one that "supports" the wishes of the "whiners" out there. At a deeper level, I think a big part of the resentment that some people have for Raven's decisions with 1.03 come from a "Mom always liked you best" frame of mind. It's as if they see that Raven "sided" with one side of the argument. Which, maybe they did, but then again, maybe they simply changed the game to how they wanted to play it. Anyway, this is an irrelevant tangent.

For the record, ArtifeX, the above two paragraphs aren't directed at you, just at the general public.
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Old 05-22-2002, 10:34 AM   #69
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Well, all I can say is we'll continue to disagree about the usefulness of Light Style. I wish I could agree with you about its effectiveness. No, actually I wish I never had any grounds to disagree with you in the first place.

Feel free to stop by the new *ASC* challenge server to give me a taste of that Light Style. Hopefully you'll have better luck than Twins of Doom did last night.


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Old 05-22-2002, 12:56 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind

Try and stay away from the theoretical please!!

I donít care what George Lucas wants, or what you think jedi SHOULD play like as far as keeping in theme with Star Wars. These issues must be abandoned with the conclusion of the initial planning phase.
Not once did I mention George Lucas in my posting, and as for keeping in theme with Star Wars, take a look on the box JK2 came in under "LucasArts Entertainment Company Presents." It's a Star Wars game. How can it not be based on the movies which started it all?

Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind

THE POINT of a visible absorb is for darkies to wait for it to go off to use their powers. IT was NOT meant to prevent dark powers from hurting lighties, but to discourage them from using it. (Even though now the opposite can be proven with .03). THERE CAN BE NO COUNTER FOR THIS!!
In response to this, I'm going to make another quote:
Quote:
Star Wars: Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast (Game Manual, p44)

Force Absorb (Default: F10 Key)
When activated, this light side Force power will take damage from any enemy Force ability and turn that energy into Force power for you. This power does not translate physical attacks into Force power, but it will absorb attacks originating from an offensive Force power and replenish your Force Meter
Absorb is not an offensive Force power, it's a counter against offensive Force powers. One of it's main purposes is to ensure that Dark Jedi don't just try to spam lightning/grip/drain and actually engage in lightsaber combat.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
There needs to be an instantaneous heavily damaging long distance dark force power to even come close to making up for this, i.e. force destruction.
That requires next to no Force to use? This sounds like a "I need a be-all, end-all Force power that destroys my enemy despite the ludicrous range between him/her and me." Talk about unbalanced...

Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind

These powers meant people had to get down and dirty. Light couldnít turn on absorb until it was proven necessary, and even then it had to remain off to keep the user's force pools high enough for other viable means of combat.
You've never seen how quickly Absorb drains the user of Force, have you? I assure you, lightsiders have to be careful when they activate Absorb, but when it was visible, Absorb was more than useless.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind

Dark siders SHOULD have waited until they could tell it was off to use their power, thatís the dark strategy. In an ffa with major action going on at once, a player couldnít be bothered to be stuck listening for what they think could be absorb turning on.
I agree. God forbid that a computer game should require concentration.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind

In order to balance it, NO force powers what so ever should be accessible to someone who has absorb on, including jump. This is the only draw back severe enough to balance the fact that an instantaneous power that counters all others is now invisible.

I do not believe in weakening some aspects (neutering them effectively) to balance a game out however. Rather empower the ones that do balance it out (in the grand scheme of things mind you)
NO Force powers, you say? Not even jump? You truly fear absorb, don't you? To be perfectly honest, it sounds like you didn't even TRY to listen for Absorb, or hone your lightsabering skills.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind

The 2 things I am most passionate about are the guns and the invisible absorb, and you hit them both. It is obvious that you are a light sided saberist and do not play at tournament level games.
That's funny, I NEVER mentioned guns. How interesting. And although I don't play at tournament level (I'm on a 56k), at least I can say that I READ peoples post. Proven by your comment about guns

e.g.
Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Wind

I donít know how "political corruption" can manifest itself as a playable force power.
Tell me, when did I mention political corruption? I said that "I read somewhere that in battle, the Jedi use the Force to increase their offensive and defensive capabilities while the Sith try to break the spirit of the Jedi. I wonder if this could be incorporated somehow into JK2..." and what I meant by that was that it might be interesting to have a Jedi Force power that boosts lightsaber abilities, and a DarkSide counter that somehow breaks a Jedi's connection to the Force. How to do this, I don't know, but if I presented my thoughts to the floor, someone with lateral thinking different to mine could read it and say "Hey! I know how they could make that work!" and another thread would be created, and the Forum would grow until it's finally able to take over the world as we know it.

Nathan, you said that people should do their homework before posting, yet you flame my ideas when I tried my hand at creativity and tried to apply legitimate Star Wars references to a game.

To be honest, even if I did have access to Broadband Internet like Cable or ADSL I'd be too busy working (I work for an ISP that supplies ADSL and Cable. How ironic!) and doing other important things to be playing JK2 Tournaments. In fact, responding to your post has taken quite too much of my little-spare time.



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