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Old 05-23-2002, 08:06 AM   #1
Solid Scorpion
 
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There should never be 1 hit kill moves

Heres the thing.

If there is any kind of instant death move, it WILL be spammed for all its worth. First, the DFA. The power of it wasn't what killed people, it was it's manoeuverablilty (turning in the air). Kudos to the patch sorting that out, as people are using the move properly now. But, the back attacks bulid on the cheapness of the DFA. And it's not it's power either (although it is too powerful), its the over penetrative power of the moves.

Backstab - Yea..reallistic, but fun gaming?

I know some will say 'well you would die if u got stabbed', but a game has to be fun for the right reasons, not just because you can will easily with one move or because it's Star Wars.



Oh, and Attack of the Clones rules
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Old 05-23-2002, 09:17 AM   #2
Sutek
 
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And as many know, both the old DFA and the new backstabs are easy to avoid if you are alert and intelligent.

I have no trouble with them. Sure I get hit sometimes, and I sometimes even die from it. Do you hear me whining about it?
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Old 05-23-2002, 10:15 AM   #3
Mero Vilul
 
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I hear you bragging about it, I want to see you winning most of the times to a _good_ pull/backstabber, not stupidly easy public ones, we all know most of the public ones sucks.
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Old 05-23-2002, 10:19 AM   #4
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But I agree most people whine to much, before trying to find a counter for something-
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Old 05-23-2002, 10:45 AM   #5
w1ggl3s
 
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1.02c is fine, come play on seatle saber ctf , where it takes skills to stay alive. Not auto block
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Old 05-23-2002, 10:57 AM   #6
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Perhaps I will try that mode...
Perhaps Tonight...
Perhaps...
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Old 05-23-2002, 11:27 AM   #7
Neo Honor
 
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I think that increased auto blocking makes the game more like the movies. Jedi V. sith battles (as seen in episode 1 and 2) take forever. There is a lot of swinging and alot of blocking. Instead of all the heavy stance spamming that went on in the first build. We now see more sabre swinging action even if it is for the most part automatic. Wait until every one learns to counter the back stab spammers. People will see that this is a vast improvment from the first.


Fight or Flight? Anything that assures that you will fight again.
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Old 05-23-2002, 11:58 AM   #8
Solid Scorpion
 
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is this game meant to be played so that someone can win with one move?

no, it isn't.

Counter a back stab? what with, running around? wheres the fun in that?

the next version needs to make backstabs/slashes blockable. Afterall, the majority play this game to enact saber fights like the movies, not bunny hop competitions
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Old 05-23-2002, 12:16 PM   #9
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lightsabers should be quick and deadly
the only reason why a "battle" should be long is because the two combatants are highly skilled and have a good defense
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Old 05-23-2002, 12:22 PM   #10
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I'm a NF Saberist, and I the autoblocking's slowing down the speed of the game. It takes no skill to autoblock. That's what bothers me most. Right now 1vs1 duels against me take ages (yes, usually over 15 minutes) before someone dies. It's kinda boring for me, but it's even more boring for the players who are watching and waiting for their chance. I just think the game needs to get spiked up a lil bit, add more sppeeeed .

And yeah, 1.03 is a bit more realistic, but maybe that's the main factor. This isn't the movie, this is JK2 MP.
And JK2 is an arcade action game. and Arcade action= fast, frenzic, exciting fun and tons of action. And I kinda miss the frenziness and speed in it.

Too much realism in an arcade game is bad! Just look at the difference in flight sims, some of em are just arcade, evrybody can fly those planes, it's fun, and played by many players.
And you have those hardcore, "read the 300 page manual before flying" flight sims, it's fun for those who dig it, but they don't play it for the action, they play it cuz they love flying, and they usually sit in their planes for over 20 minutes without doing anything else than looking at the scenery.

Now JK2 isn't supposed to be like that. You want a Jedi Simulator that's incredibly realistic to the movie's fighting: go create one.

We should step down from the "more realism is better" point of view. We should concentrate on a way to combine a bit of realism and fun/action/arcade together. But the main focus should be on the fun/action/arcade part, because this is a game, not a simulator.

Just look at JK1: during saberfights people were swinging in the open air (due to the lag-thing), gunners weren't aiming at their opponent, they were aiming where they'd most "likely" be, people were going as fast as lightning, no realisme at all!! But a lot of people are still, to this very day, playing JK1 MP. And JK1's like.. 4 years old!! (you might not've liked it, but a lot of people still do).
Why do people like it= not because of it's amounts of realism, but because it's fast as hell, and it's hetic and frenzic and it has a LOT of action.

I don't care if Kyle suddenly turns up with lightsabers attached to his feet, if it's a real great succes and a lot of action and fun and everybody really loves it: let him fight with his feet. It's a game, everything should be focused on the fun part.

hmm.. i was kinda drifting away.. my pov:
- 1 hit kills are a bad thing, even if they are easily dodged, it's still VERY boring to see someone doing the same move all the time (and you will see those, because fact is that 1 hit moves get spammed a lot).
And the word boring does not belong in a good game!

- autoblocking.. it takes no skill from yourself. I just don't like it. I'm just the person who gets more satisfaction from doing a blocking move myself and then yelling: "YEAH, REJECTED!! YOU *(&$@!!!" (oh well.. something like that.. )


- I want more speed. I miss the frenzic FFA situations where rookies go: "oooh, that's just chaos, I'll just jump in and so random swings too", and the veteran goes:"no, it's not chaos, just watch me play" and then he gets into the crowd and starts butchering everybody. IMO right now there's no FFA Frenzy stuff. You can clearly see what everybody's doing: he's DFA spamming, he's just randomly swinging, he's just going after that guy, etc.. no frenzy, just controlled and overviewable situations, even for the rookie-player.


gawd. did I type this much?? dang. I'm off. be back when I have a social life.

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Old 05-23-2002, 04:02 PM   #11
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I have to say that I agree with what u said Zodiac (though it was a bit long). Games should be a good mix between realism and arcade action. If a game just strives to be totally realistic it loses some of its appeal and it greatly diminishes the fun that can be had. i think JK2 does a fairly good job of mixing realism with an arcade style of play, but there are certain things that can be improved upon. For example, in any game there are going to be moves that are more effective than other moves and therefore are used more, but I think something is wrong when there are so many people using just one move/technique. I mean that takes the fun out of the game for me. Why would I want to play with say 10 other people when all they do is pull/backstab. Yes I know it can be avoided, but when that is all everybody does eventually i am gonna get hit, and I am probably gonna die. This is just not fun to me. I'm not sure what they have to do to make everyone stop spamming moves, but they need to work on balancing the moves, and cut down on the blocking some to get the game back to its "frenzied pace". Anyways, thats my 2 cents.
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Old 05-23-2002, 04:24 PM   #12
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Arrow

One of the problems is that fact that players like me who "use" not spam the backstab have people, crying about the backstab when used as a finisher. And all the "well I know you can dodge it but what fun is that"....there is much more that can be done to kill people who want to walk around backwards and backstab everyone other than dodging. The backstab could probably stand to be a little less powerfull, i admit, but there are 3 or 4 moves off the top of my head that that can be said about. The fact is that NO ONE is at a disadvantage in the game as everyone has the same abilities at there disposal. I kill people all night long who try to spam the backstab, mainly because instead of crying about it I discovered new techiniques to counter it. No matter how good you think you are there will always be someone who gets you with a backstab. That's just part of the fun. When I get hit with a backstab and it's used in an non-spam way I will give props to that foe. You have to admit it an awesome animation.. anyway, if it's not the backstab it the Upside down flip swing, or the heavy stance jump/ bringing your saber to the ground, or the kick or the...you get my point.
Learn the techniques to counter any attack and you will prosper!!

I digress.


TheGoAt




(ok...I will spam the backstab if there is a huge crowd all gathered together but that's another story)


DaZe - aka TheGoAt™
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Old 05-23-2002, 10:51 PM   #13
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Yah. but the main point of the first subject was (I think) : 1 hit kill moves are never good.

I agree with that, but only if a 1 hit kill is very easy to do, and the move also's got to have this HUGE disadvantage. I mean, that 1.02 DFA and current backslash move are just way to easy to do, and the disadvantages you get with em are not enough.

A 1 hit kill move should be real hard to do, cuz the reward of doing that move succesfully is the best one: THE KILL.
I'm thinking of something like:"a supersabercombo which has to be charged up before using." Like.. a person has to stand still and don't move for like...30 seconds, and while he's doing that the supersaberslash is powered up, and after the 30 seconds he has 5 seconds to do the move, before the power he just charged up goes away".

Well... something like that. Just pointing out that a 1 hit kill move should be a "hard to do" move.

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Old 05-23-2002, 10:53 PM   #14
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Oooh lookie. meesa has 200 posts now. I'm an Ewok now.

In a few years... when JK3's out.. I'll be a Yoda. (what kinda creature's Yoda anyways?)..

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Old 05-23-2002, 11:07 PM   #15
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On the contrary, there SHOULD be one hit kill moves in Jedi Knight, but those one hit kill moves should not be limited to a DFA and two backswings.

Every swing in JK2 should be one hit kill if timed. The problem with backstab right now (not DFA) is that, compared to all the other normal swings, it is unblockable and always does max damage (all the normal swings are blocked nearly 100% of the time and only deal max damage midway through the swing.)

If you were to decrease backstab damage, then lightsaber fights would take even longer (currently NF fights last forever until someone messes up and doens't dodge a finisher/backswing/redcombo.) If you were to decrease backstab damage, then guns would dominate sabers even more than they already do, and force fights would boil down to absorb + kickflips (which already do more damage than light stance swings.) CTF sabers NF would be moot, since it'd be impossible to kill the flag carrier unless he messed up, and CTF sabers FF would almost be moot if the flag carrier was proficient with absorb/protect/speed.

If you were to increase the damage on sabers and make blocking more difficult (perhaps your blocking chance is based upon the proximity of your crosshair to the opposing lightsaber) then backstab would leave you open to an equally damaging frontal attack (since your back is turned), fights would end much more quickly, and guns would be less powerful relative to lightsabers.

I think a major problem many of the forum posters have right now is that they are not looking at the dynamics of this game in relation to everything else. When you balance sabers, you need to keep in mind that sabers are prominent in more settings than Saber-only FFA (which is the only game type where backswings are truly abuse-spammed, since in duels a backswing leaves you open to a counter-backswing, lunge, or offensive side attack.)

Just some food for thought
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Old 05-23-2002, 11:29 PM   #16
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I enjoy one hit kill moves. (as long as they are no spammed)

My idea would have to be make someone have a time limit on the one hit kill moves. Example: If you do a backstab, yo uhave to wait 15 seconds before you can do another one. Or You have to do 5 More moves before you can do another backstab.

Or you cannot do a one hit kill move more then three times in a row before doing other moves or something along those lines.

Just some kind of delay to prevent spamming.
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Old 05-24-2002, 07:27 AM   #17
graigsmith
 
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Thumbs down

people just walk around backwards now
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Old 05-24-2002, 07:31 AM   #18
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every time you do a backstab it should take about half (or 1/4th, as long as its balanced) of your force.. that way people wont do it non stop like they are now.

also put force and the red mode special move and the yellow mode special move should both take force power too.
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Old 05-24-2002, 10:21 AM   #19
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If you were to decrease backstab damage, then lightsaber fights would take even longer

lol

People would still spam it for all it's worth, just because its a guarenteed hit.

You've got to think of it as a fighting game, like soul calibur. Dya think people would be happy if Nightmare could just chop everyone with the same move over and over, and it was 1 hit kill AND unblockable? Unblockable and instant kill moves ARE bad, end of story.

Just recently i was fightin someone who just constantly ran backwards into me hoping to strong backslash me. I strafed round everytime, but i couldnt get a hit in as i would just die instantly. He got me a few times, but none through skill. I performed a DFA, but missed. He ran in, i switched to fast and pre-empted him with a backstab, my first and only backstab kill of the day. He then continued to call me lame......HELLO
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Old 05-24-2002, 10:23 AM   #20
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The force usage idea is good (i was thinkin of about it too), but it needs to use a full pool to avoid spammin
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Old 05-24-2002, 12:24 PM   #21
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Yes exactly, like I was saying, a one hit kill could be good for the game, but that move HAS to have a big downside to it too. Balancing the game to get more fun, that's the key element here.

And no, not every swing should be a 1 hit kill. Even tho this is the most realistic thing, it's not the most fun thing to do. Yes, of course we don't want those too long duels, but we also don't want duels that last too short. Like I said: Sometimes you have to focus on less realism to make the game more fun.

The point of making every slash a hit 1 kill to balance it with guns: If you hit a gunner once with your lightsaber, he dies. If you hit another saberist with the saber, you'll do normal damage. That's the fairest solution to me, considering the advantage of range those gunners have.

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Old 05-24-2002, 12:55 PM   #22
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Before this game came out the general census was that everyone wanted long drawn out saber fights. IT would be extremely hard to hit someone, there would be lot's of blocking. Patience and skill would win in the end. Basically everyone wanted it to be like the movies. And what happens in the movies if a sabre hits you? It either kills you, or severs a limb.

You guys don't want 1 hit kills, yet you want quick fights?

I was hoping that Raven would avoid creating a frenzied atmosphere where everyone runs around like maniacs swinging their sabers. Well, guess what, this happens all the time. Unfortunately the technology for movie like fights is a little way off.

Remember, whenever people can find an easy way to kill you (the backstab) they will exploit it, and spam it to death. Balancing a game like Jk2 multi is extremely hard.


----Whatever hits the fan will not be evenly distributed----
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Old 05-24-2002, 01:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Lunatic

I was hoping that Raven would avoid creating a frenzied atmosphere where everyone runs around like maniacs swinging their sabers. Well, guess what, this happens all the time. Unfortunately the technology for movie like fights is a little way off.
Exactly. And that's why Raven should spend less time in making it more realistic and more time in making it fun. Realisme isn't always fun in a computer game.

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Old 05-24-2002, 01:53 PM   #24
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Well using the word realism in a Star Wars context is a bit silly...

You'll all agree that the best action scenes in Star Wars movies are the saber fights. Well they are for me, and i'm craving for a game that could replicate the numerous movements, the blocking and all the other factors that make move saber fights so fun. Jedi Knight 2 took some promising steps, but still was WAY off when it comes to imitating movie saber fights.

Anyway, that's just my view of the whole saber combat system.

Back to Jk2! I think it's just about as fun as it can get. There is a certain level of enjoyment it can reach. It is either teetering around that level or sitting at it.


----Whatever hits the fan will not be evenly distributed----
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Old 05-24-2002, 02:08 PM   #25
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A finishing move is a good thing. If you knock someone down and they are defenseless, or they have thier back to you, you SHOULD, as a Jedi/Sith trained with a saber for years, be able to kill a person that is defenseless/Holding a gun. Therefore, a finisher would be a BLOCKABLE 1 hit kill. If they have thier saber up, they can block it.

I don't see the backstab/backswing as a finisher. It is a side-effect of changes made to all the stances. I don't believe it was intended to be unblockable.

Think about it, I'm a Jedi with reactions fast enough to deflect bullets, skill enough to deflect them back at the attacker, and I can't react fast enough to block a saber strike from an opponent that is facing the other way (IE not even looking at me) and swinging backwards?

I think if they were to implement a finisher, it would be some keystroke combo that would be a 1 hit kill, blockable, and the opponent maybe needed to be on the ground. (IE I can see a downward 2 handed stab being used, maybe a slight jump and then stab down and land on one knee next to the fallen opponent.) The downside being that if you miss, be it they moved or you just didn't hit them, you needed to spend time pulling your saber out of the ground and spend time getting up defenseless and stationary.


As it stands, I like the current patch, Except for the backstab. I don't think it makes for a meaningful game when the top scores for each team, or the top score in a FFA, are by people doing the same move over and over.


If anyone has a good backstabber or backstab/puller in thier TFFA/FFA game and you can out-frag them, I'd be impressed. I'd be impressed due to the fact that you out-fragged someone that can kill with a hit, and can kill MULTIPLE people with 1 swing.

You say you can counter it by attacking fromt he side or behind? Explain to me how you do that then when they use the swing (which hits anyone in the area behind, behind left and behind right), AND they can spin around to be able to hit anyone thats near them and usually kill them.


I like the backstab, its a cool move. It shouldn't be unblockable. 1 hit kill, maybe if your reasoning is that they caught you by surprise, but at the very least, BLOCKABLE!!!!!!


I'm not a whiner, but your opinion may vary. I'm competitive, and like getting an honest readout of my skills by reading the frag scores. If someone can buy the game, practice backstabbing for a couple hours straight and get 10 times the frags I can, somethings wrong. The simple fact remains, people that backstab will almost always get the most frags. GOOD backstabbers will pretty much win any game they are in, unless theres another good or better backstabber.

Welcome to Jedi Knight 2, Patch 1.03: Jedi Outbackstab
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Old 05-24-2002, 02:14 PM   #26
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Think about it, I'm a Jedi with reactions fast enough to deflect bullets, skill enough to deflect them back at the attacker, and I can't react fast enough to block a saber strike from an opponent that is facing the other way (IE not even looking at me) and swinging backwards
Excellent point. I agree it's a cool move, but it should be blockable.


----Whatever hits the fan will not be evenly distributed----
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Old 05-24-2002, 04:51 PM   #27
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The basic point of my whinge is that all moves should be blockable and never be 1 hit death. The over blocking of the new patch is another point i want to address, being both good and bad.

good - blocks against heavy are possible, this has stopped a lot of people being aggressive with the heavy stance (however darksiders can be aggressive with the use of Dark Rage)


bad - people who just attack constantly still manage to deflect, block and parry attacks.
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Old 05-24-2002, 07:47 PM   #28
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But how can you block something when you're down on te ground. It seems to me most people are upset because of the push/pull & backstab combo, because you can't block when you're down on the ground.

Or should they enable blocking when you're on the ground too?

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Old 05-24-2002, 08:32 PM   #29
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Originally posted by Zodiac
Oooh lookie. meesa has 200 posts now. I'm an Ewok now.

In a few years... when JK3's out.. I'll be a Yoda. (what kinda creature's Yoda anyways?)..
I'm pretty sure he's a Gremling!
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Old 05-24-2002, 09:56 PM   #30
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I think one of the things that should be fixed is the wide range of backstab. Seriously, I was on the side of a backstabber. He was backstabbing someone else and the victim and I got killed, even though I stood on his side.


Sue, it's the American way!- I forgot.
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Old 05-24-2002, 10:14 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solid Scorpion
is this game meant to be played so that someone can win with one move?

no, it isn't.

Counter a back stab? what with, running around? wheres the fun in that?

the next version needs to make backstabs/slashes blockable. Afterall, the majority play this game to enact saber fights like the movies, not bunny hop competitions
Well, first of all, you "win" on any given server by having the highest score. You get the highest score by killing. And yes, there should be one hit kills.

Why? Because a lightsaber can cut through you. They are dangerous weapons. You aren't fighting with wooden spoons, you are fighting with lightsabers. This is what makes it so fun. Your survival in a battle with such dangerous weapons is what distinguishes a skilled player vs a non-skilled player.

Because you are not skilled, and have not attempted to find any counters to the pull down/backstab move, I will assist you.

First, you can avoid being pulled down by using absorb, or pulling, pushing, kicking them first.

If you are pulled down, you can a) pull or push them to knock them off balance, b) turn on protect so that you are not killed.

At which point they will most likely have their backs turned to you and you can swipe back at them.

Pretty simple really, and I do quite well against the backstabbers.
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Old 05-24-2002, 10:47 PM   #32
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Thumbs down

Indeed, when you are fast and skilled enough to dodge bullets with saber, how hard can it be to kill one that is running at you without looking and swinging at random directions with fast stance, but no, he manages to block your hard stance vertical swing, and after that when you are recovering, he slaughters you and all others around him with one move.

And i would like to see some more skill in compoiong and in blocking, when 2 good players fight, they usually fight quite long and watch what the other guy does and tries to counter that, until other one dies. But then Padawan who doesnt know anything about other stances than the default(blue), comes in and manages to kill the 'good' player by rushing and hitting with random swings. Happens to me if not for anyone else

Yes i know im ****e and bit offtopic, but i just cant seem to find a way to kill those skillfully, so fast the blue stance is

-and i am a whiner i know

Forgot to add that i only speak about no force saber only games, not familiar with others.
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Old 05-25-2002, 03:11 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by geronimo27


Well, first of all, you "win" on any given server by having the highest score. You get the highest score by killing. And yes, there should be one hit kills.

Why? Because a lightsaber can cut through you. They are dangerous weapons. You aren't fighting with wooden spoons, you are fighting with lightsabers. This is what makes it so fun. Your survival in a battle with such dangerous weapons is what distinguishes a skilled player vs a non-skilled player.

Because you are not skilled, and have not attempted to find any counters to the pull down/backstab move, I will assist you.

First, you can avoid being pulled down by using absorb, or pulling, pushing, kicking them first.

If you are pulled down, you can a) pull or push them to knock them off balance, b) turn on protect so that you are not killed.

At which point they will most likely have their backs turned to you and you can swipe back at them.

Pretty simple really, and I do quite well against the backstabbers.

I agree, lightsabers are very strong weapons. However, from a game standpoint, they need to be balanced.

Can you tell me why then that I can use a medium slash, which would be equal to a 2 handed baseball swing, and hit someone in the back, they don't die. However, I can reverse the situation, have them behind me facing my butt, saber drawn and ready to block, and I can backstab them and kill them?

Try this, go outside, and take a baseball bat out. With 2 hands, hit the side of your (or your parents) trash can as hard as you can. Now, go pick the trash can up from where ever it landed, and this time, turn around, and using 2 hands, do a backstab. Tell me now, which hit harder? Which knocked the garbage can farther? Hell, even using a yellow stance analogy, turn around, and use ONE hand to swing at the garbage can, while someone moves it into a different spot than where it was before. See how hard you hit it then.

Quote:
If you are pulled down, you can a) pull or push them to knock them off balance, b) turn on protect so that you are not killed.
Wow, thats deep. 2 moves, for A you can't do when you don't see them coming, which you normally don't, and for B, you'd have to be light sided and have Force Pool, which you probably don't have since you got pulled dowe in the first place. So you're saying that your only prayer is to stay away from them...exactly how do you win these games then?

Ok, so what do you do when you're in a group of people, fighting close combat, and said backstabber simply runs up, turns around, and kills you all with 1 shot?


It's easy to say that a person is not skilled that is complaining about backstab. That's a childish comment that I'll leave alone.

It's also easy to call someone a newbie that simply backstabs all game. Hey, with the game as it is, in a FFA or TFFA game, if you WANT to win, you HAVE to backstab. Go on any server and spectate the leader. 9 times out of 10, they are using backstabs. 1 time out of 10 they will be a skilled player, probably using Pull/backstab Combo, or just using backswings in which they don't have to turn totally around, but can spin to kill anything in the area.

Should there be a 1 hit kill...sure. If I have a saber and you have a gun, I should be able to slice you into morsals, assuming you have no shields. If you have a saber and ARE NOT ON THE GROUND, you should have a chance to block, and if nothing else, an ABOVE NORMAL chance to block someone that isn't even facing you.

As I said before, I could see a downward stab move implemented thats a 1 hit kill, but your opponent must be on the ground. And it has a serious delay if you miss, and can't be done rapidly. It would also use force pool, but maybe restore force pool if successful.

backstab damage as it stands, I can deal with. The fact that its unblockable is not right. If I get pulled and backstabbed, I can deal. having a guy lead 5-6 others into a room and right away back swing and get 5-6 kills isn't right.

If I can't come up behind a guy holding a gun and use a heavy swing to completley chop him in half, a light swing backwards against a defensive saber wielding guy who's facing you shouldn't be able to either.

Would you like fries with that?
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Old 05-25-2002, 03:27 PM   #34
Zodiac
 
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Thumbs up for ur post, Rock.

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