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Old 05-30-2002, 05:39 PM   #41
C'jais
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Good then begger,

I am sorry, and you are sorry.... we are both sorry.
I guess....

Talking about this patch is really starting to feel like beating a dead horse for me....
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Old 05-30-2002, 05:43 PM   #42
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that's true...but it seems, if we want (we as in pro 1.02) changes in our favor, we have to complain like the rest so that 1.04 will turn out in ah appy medium between 1.02 and 1.03.
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Old 05-30-2002, 05:44 PM   #43
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quick way to solve everyone problems with v1.03 leave it as it is but make all the specials currently 2 per stance use force power. The backstabbers will still have there one hit kills but they can't spam it all the time. Lets face it JK2 is a fighting game (duel servers that is) follow what they do in fighting games all specials have use a power bar that needs to be charged, well since JK2 doesn't have a power bar use the force bar.

Awol

My $0.02 take it or leave it doesn't matter to me I'm having fun playing this game.
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Old 05-30-2002, 05:50 PM   #44
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that is an interesting idea, but the idea of using force to swing your saber? Just doesn't sit well with me when it comes to starwars...
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Old 05-30-2002, 06:16 PM   #45
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So true begger,

And everyone is in their good right to complain, no doubt there, but this topic in all of its entirety is just starting to wear on me.

Tired about talking about the same thing, you could say.

Awol, you idea is good. BTW, begger, what he meant was that only the specials use force (lunge and so on i take it). But i also agree with begger that moves shouldn't cost force in themselves, it's just that they need a way to be less spammed. Whatever that way is. It might feel a little forced if you so blatantly restrained people's choices. I don't know about this really, but this idea has been mentioned recently in the feedback forum i think.
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Old 05-30-2002, 06:27 PM   #46
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well, it is difficult to find a way to have it less spammed. I don't think it is actually a problem in nf servers, as the n00b assfighters don't do too well in nf...

when it comse to a ff server, the main problem is pull-special. I guess the only way to stop this is to have pull not knock you down. I know I know..knocking down is integral, but I think, if they changed kick back to 1 button tap, and kept pull, the 'making fall down' effect can still be pulled off...*with the kcik obviously.

Now, with that, I remember the kick pushing the player backwards, slightly further, so you would have to go up close to get some shots in.

So, if this was done, then after the person was kicked down, when the kicker tries to run forward and do 180 degrees back specials, there is more time for the kicked to get up and away.. but if the kicker decided to run up and swing..they could probably get 1 hit off..not a special, but a clean hit. what do you think?
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Old 05-30-2002, 06:52 PM   #47
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Don't think that swing a saber uses force power than the move needs it to work, Take for example the yellow flip slash special I know very few people could flip like that but think what it involves to jump flip and swing a sword like that, force is used for that move for sure. The backstab could be agrued that the force does the seeing for the blade blah blah blah. normal swings would still be normal no force or anything. Also another idea for the pull/knockdown - backstab would be let the player decide when to stand up as it is now it automatic with a chance on making a little faster (tho it never seems to work for me) take the automatic stand out that way people who are knockdown could wait until the backstaber is finished and then stand.

Awol
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Old 05-30-2002, 06:54 PM   #48
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Yup that'd work i think. Granted, I haven't seen much pull/backstabbing when i play, but it's really horrific to look at...

I don't mind the kick thing, i hardly ever use it, only if someone decides to spam it and i feel like showing that i can play along just as bad... so to speak.

Good workout around the problem.
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Old 05-30-2002, 10:41 PM   #49
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I hate to get involved with another (IMHO) pointless argument (since the devs will do what they want, not what "whiners" want, as the old saying goes), but here's one point I had to make:

Quote:
Also, do me a favour. Run backwards, and tell me you move as fast as when you run forwards. If you can, well then I guess the current situation is fine.
This is completely irrelevant. Why? Well first off, it's a game, and games are full of unrealistic, impossible things and situations. Why? Because realism doesn't always equal fun. Most games are wildly unrealistic. Multiple lives, guns that don't break down and need to be cleaned, people who run and jump around and don't get tired, or take major damage and still function as if they just got out of the health spa or something, etc. Multiplayer even more so.. why are these people fighting to the death? Why not use diplomatic means.. why not call in for backup, why not figure a way to escape from that battle arena and find food??

So you see, it really doesn't matter at all if YOU (who aren't even a Jedi or world-class commando like Han Solo or Kyle Katarn) can't do something, but in the game you can. Games are about fantasy. In games you can do things that are impossible (or would land you in jail or a mental institution) in real life. That's why we have games, to indulge these fantasies safely and have fun, while we compete in games of skill and chance. It's not about having the most realistic simulation of real life possible (at least not when it comes to Star Wars games or first person shooters).

Heck, even the so-called "realistic" games like Rainbow 6 are wildly unrealistic when you get down to it. So who cares? If it's fun and balanced, that's all I care about. If they can do that AND make it look cool, all the better.
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Old 05-31-2002, 05:42 AM   #50
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Very good point! We play games to have fun... real life is realistic... it isn't always fun... I think you know what I'm saying
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Old 05-31-2002, 06:35 AM   #51
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since the devs will do what they want, not what "whiners" want, as the old saying goes
I think the release of 1.03 invalidated that statement, at least when it comes to Jedi Knight.

Beyond that, good point about realism--how realistic is a Star Wars game anyway?...


Vestril was here!!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-31-2002, 06:37 AM   #52
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lol in the original mail they where talkin about 12 year old kids and most of u react like 12 year old kids.
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Old 05-31-2002, 07:13 AM   #53
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The flames keep me warm =)

Anyways, I don't want instant kills. What I do want is to have fun. Right now I can't have fun in this GAME (I put that in bold because so many are pointing this out over and over and over again. I know it's a game! Yeah, I tried looking in the 'Anti Virus' section of Future shop too, but eventually I found it in the games section.) Why can't I have fun? Not because of so-called 'assfighting' but because of the people that do it. I go into a server and play normally, get some good duels in and then suddenly I see this backstabber. He thinks he's pretty hot ****. Since I detest people that think they're so damn good because they can exploit, I decide to show him that he's not the only one that's able to do that. I single him out and do pull-backstab combo on him over and over and over. Sometimes I even variate and do pull-backswing! Some concede that maybe they need to try something else. Some will just go bazerk and start calling me a hacker and garbage. Some are particularly funny and attempt to get me kicked off the server for some unknown reason. I found it amusing to pick on backstabbers at first, but it gets old. Especially once they begin their 'back up plan' where they spam chat with a barage of 'Stop hacking! You suck! blah blah blah." I'd rather they just slapped in a server option to disable special moves. That's just me though.

Oh, and don't flame this post or you'll get it back 10 times worse. Use a brain cell (I heard some folks even have two or more of these!) and if you disagree use actual facts and arguments. Thanks and have a nice day =)


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Old 05-31-2002, 07:57 AM   #54
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Since i lag in the 700s i dont play the "actual MP " i play agaionst the bots so i dont really see them @ss-fighting me . But a way to make the backstabs blockable would be that if a player is not attacking (guard up) the backstab is parried knocking the saber from his hands IMHO this would both look sweet and force more strategy and timing into the backstab . Oh BTW keep its damage the same .
No flaming me saying i have no exp with mp i can play it if i can find a good dsl line to piggy back on
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Old 05-31-2002, 07:59 AM   #55
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It's been awhile since I posted on the boards, yet I don't remember them to be this hostile before...

Anyways, I agree with the majority of people that say the current form of backstabbing/backsweeping is an unblalancing move.

So... IMO what I think needs to be delt with are these things:

Leave the backstabbing(s) in the game, but decrease their damage by atleast 65% . Also make them blockable. It just doesn't make sense that the most powerful move would be coming from someone with his back turned. I don't mean to say that it's "unrealistic" or what... This is purely based off of a gameplay stand point.. and what I consider a waste of a possibly great lightsaber system if it wasn't for a few major flaws.

Give an option to remove "Special" saber attacks on the server (someone above game this idea, and I think it's a good one). Personally I think ALL of the special saber attacks are too powerful for how easy they are to pull off.

Make the heavy swings alittle more blockable. This isn't because I can't handle defending against those swings, but because the best defense is to run when someone is swning heavy. This causes heavy fights to become too much of a hit in run fight I think. When it should be more close combat.

Remove the "flying lungers". This isn't all that big of a deal, but I would imagine Raven would like to remove all obvious bugs such as that. Incase you don't know what I mean: try falling off a high cliff in the game while doing the forward (light stance) lung, and hold. You'll float all the way down without taking damage.

Decrease running backwards speed... Again, I'm not saying it's unrealist, or what not, I know it's just a game. I simply think that it would be cooler for people to actually run away when their in trouble, instead of watching their opponent the whole time.

Decrease running speed slightly as health decreases... I really doubt this would be implemented... but I think it would be nice if it was. This would be to prevent people from running to get health whenever they get hurt in NF FFA saber games. That way the rightful winner should be able to catch up.

Anyways; those are just my opinions of what should be added in the next patch, and I respect everyone elses opinion just as much as my own. I'm curious to see what gets added in the next patch (assuming there is one).
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Old 05-31-2002, 09:21 AM   #56
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U guys should write a book it's way to big to read everything.
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Old 05-31-2002, 09:45 AM   #57
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boohoo! What a bunch of whiners. You know who I am talking about.

My 2 cents worth.

Anyone who says slowing down running backwards is a bad thing is nothing but a newbie backstabbing spamming lamer.

People bitching about Raven nerfing something else for their own benefit DO NOT have a clue about what is going on. Go back through the old forum posts and see that 90% of what they did was requested, no BITCHED about, in the 1.02 build. The other 10% came from rebalancing somethings and bugs/omissions that always creap in patches.


-LDV
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Old 05-31-2002, 01:13 PM   #58
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actually, no, I don't agree with moving slower while goign backwards, you want to know why?

I am a saber user, I barely play guns, but I KNOW for a fact that making this change will SCREW over the gunners in CTF. How will it be possible for a gunner to defend against another gunner who is running at him? or the flag carrier trying to defend himself from attacks from behind? This will competely slow down the CTF game, and MANY and I mean near ALL the gunners won't be happy about it. We can't make that change...

And please don't say "who cares about gunners", or , "this game is FOR the lightsabers, if they want guns go to quake". that's not the point. Guns are in the game, and thats how it is, so you can't tell Raven to completely destroy that aspect of the game just to fix a little problem with assfighters. all they need to do is up damage on sabers and assfighters are no more..or atleast less than now. And this alternative doesn't screw over others in the game.
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Old 05-31-2002, 01:31 PM   #59
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Guns are in the game, but I didn't buy the game because of the guns. You wan't guns, go play Counterstrike or SoF2...


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
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Old 05-31-2002, 01:36 PM   #60
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ugh..I know I know...you're just saying that for the sake of arguement aren't you? heheheh...

you may not have bought the game for guns, but like you said, guns are there, and some people had bought the game..(for guns)...You can't ruin a HUGE part of the game (CTF) just so that it fixes a rather SMALL problem in the sabering universe....

Although the uniqueness of this game comes from the lightsabers, Raven is more interested in the majority of the general JK2 community, not the sabering community. Therefore gunners have a say.
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Old 05-31-2002, 02:02 PM   #61
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I think most ppl just don't understand what are they asking for . The worst thing raven can do is nerfing . They asked to nerf force ,saber,DFA before 1.03 .And they got it . All nerfed .Ppl can now live longer but there was moves that wasn't nerfed much - kick ,backstab ,medium finisher . Now they ask to nerf them as well.... What u will have left? Duels lasting longer ?- they already
last beyond any rational reasons.

All the problems ppl have with backstab,kicks (put any effective move here ) is because the saber itself is now almost useless. They nerfed saber damage - now u can take 5 hits and still be alive .While trying to bakstab u can take 1 ,2,3,4 hits and still trying .No wonder ppl spam it .Why ppl didnt do it in 1.02? Because u got 1,2 with medium ,some saber touch - and u were dead . Same was with dfa - 1,2,3 - oops spammer's health on zero .

Kicks were dangerous - for 20 possible damage u could easily get 60 urself . So moves were used with care. Spammers didnt live long enough to get more than 2 points in duels.

Force duels actually involved some moves besides push/pull/backstab .Saber played a major role . Now saber in force duels is useless except for backstab .Any other move (kick,throw) is more reliable and does almost same amount of damage than almost impossible to connect saber swings.

So why all u ask for more nerfing? Whats the point? Sabers should be deadly ,they shouldnt be equivalents of glowing broomsticks .
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Old 05-31-2002, 02:35 PM   #62
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Okay, let me clarify something here:

Here's the irony behind my posts: I agree with you guys, well... to an extent. I think something needs to be done, and nerfing the backswing is not the answer.

But, here's the catch, There needs to be a hybrid between 1.02 and 1.03. Because, I feel the added len's flares are a nice touch, the support for dismemberment in MP is great, the hitboxes are much better, DFA not being able to turn is wonderful etc. But the lessening of the general saber damage was probably off-base and perhaps too much adjusting of the Force powers.

Here's the difference betwen you and me: I'm not going to start verbally bashing Raven or Lucasarts over the ordeal, nor am I going to claim in all my egocentric elitism that I know what's best, or I'm retiring from the game after 2 months. I mean come on, it's a game your retiring? I think some of us have to reprioritize our lives. We have to be rational here, what each of us think is simply an opinion, and maybe others like what we dislike, that does not make them wrong or conversly, it does not automatically make us right. We must be willing to accept that we are not, infact, infallible nor are we Gods that must be reckoned with. We are simply Gamers who have ideas on how to make the gaming community better. Let's make them known in a constructive and respectful manner, and perhaps Raven would be more willing to listen. After all, let's not bite the hand that feeds us, metaphorically speaking. Fair enough?

First of all, screaming "Raven sucks!" or "Thanks Raven for ruining the game!" isn't going to make things better. It's all about the golden rule, If I were Raven, I'd tend to ignore you after reading any of the aforementioned verbal tirades. Let's try to approach this from a civil and intelligent angle, shall we? To be fair, some of you have constructively pointed out flaws or inconsistencies in the new patch, and made them known to the rest of the communtiy with an air of dignity and self-control. Believe it or not, these are the ones that will be listened too.

Before you go and say "Well, during 1.02 the whiners and bashers is who Raven listened to last time!", I will say this, I know that, and Raven is probably regretting that as we speak, and probably won't make that mistake again. They are probably sick of hearing them being called ignorant, incompetant, mindless etc... At this point in the game, it's most likely safe to assume that they will listen to intelligently constructed debates, rebuttals and suggestions.

I'm trying to make you understand that I actually agree with you, or at least mostly, but I feel that you guys are hurting the cause and/or the community by the way you have approached your problems. And of course, I certainly don't agree with your approach to the game either, I mean, if you can't have fun with the game when you losing as well as winning, than you've missed the point. Life is too short to worry about winning, have fun with what you've got and then, and only then, you'll be the true winner.


May the road rise up to meet you,
May the wind be ever at your back
May the sun shine warm upon your face
And the rain fall softly on your fields
And until we meet again,
May God hold you in the hollow of his hand
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Old 05-31-2002, 03:23 PM   #63
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hmm..well good points havoc. anyways...
the thing is, the world is one big competition now, competition is shown everywhere. In our sports, in our businesses, in our streets, etc..etc..

I for one am quite competitive, and love to win. If I lose, I do not feel particularly well about myself, and try my best to make myself better so I will win next time. My priority is to succeed and be well off in life, and to do that, I will need to be competitive and win. If I had 'lost' in getting into university, I would have lost my goal in life (well a good part of it...). To enjoy life to it's fullest one has to win in life. That's how I see it. I know people will say it's not all about winning...but to me..it is. lol..I lead a pathetic life, I know, someone else already stated that in another post. But I am now 19 years old with a summer job making around 15 thousand for 3 and a half months of work...so I don't think I'm doing too shabby in my life. I feel I'm on the right track for me.
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Old 05-31-2002, 03:51 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dark Begger
the thing is, the world is one big competition now, competition is shown everywhere. In our sports, in our businesses, in our streets, etc..etc..
Yeah, I know... it's a shame really, people don't take the time to enjoy the majority of what's around them because they are to cought up in the scores/money/status etc of winning. Wether it's "winning" at their careers, athletic events, or schooling etc. I believe that the competitiveness that our society is overly displaying in recent genrerations is what will lead us to collapse of our society as we know it. Too much emphasis is taken off family, friendship, relaxation, and good 'ol fun and instead is placed on winning, scoring, making money and gaining power and/or social status.

There's so much that can be satisfying and enjoyable in the simple things. In just taking a step back, taking a deep breath and just "living" by actually taking a good look at the wonderful world around you. Friendship, family, nature, warm sunshine on your face, the ocean waves tumbling onto the sandy shore, a hot dog at the ball park, picnics on lazy summer afternoons, long walks with friends, playing bloody murder until midnight on a summer's eve. A new sparkling crisp snow on the tree branches, driving with the windows/top down, a puppy dog's face complete with floppy ears, late night talsk over the phone with your friend, a gentle spring rain and the scent of new life in the air, swimming in a cool pool, a juicy steak dinner, your favorite musical artist in concert, building a snow man and so much more can be so fullfilling and wonderful without the need for competition and the inevitable score.

The world has literlly forgotten the "good" things in life that came from caring for one another and looking for the good in the bad. Instead of learning from our mistakes, we obsess about them, becoming angry that we have failed, holding unto our anger until we right the wrong, which for some people never happens. They go along life with this knot of anger/hurt/frustration inside them spoiling all the wonderful times they could be experiencing until they die from a broken heart or spirit.

There's too much emphasis on winning if you ask me, but that's just one man's opinion, to each their own I suppose. But do me a favor, next time you get a chance, just take a breathe and really stop and evaluate all you passed up for the big "score" in life, don't wait until it's too late to really "live".


May the road rise up to meet you,
May the wind be ever at your back
May the sun shine warm upon your face
And the rain fall softly on your fields
And until we meet again,
May God hold you in the hollow of his hand
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Old 05-31-2002, 04:57 PM   #65
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I think Im gonna have to agree with Dark in general.
Personally I have no idea why raven released 1.03 the way they did. The big requests that I recall was to fix the damm bounding box on the dfa, and a few minor tweaks, not revamp the entire saber system.

As far as a 1.04 goes what I would like to see personally is a return to the 1.02 saber system, the restoration of the DFA, and all stances, but tweak the dfa so it has a normal attack radius.

Keep the increased saber locks

ditch auto blocking and implement manual blocking that requires skill.

Return the saber damage to that of 1.02, but also add more fatality to them. A good saber attack from any stance that contacts a player without shields, or force protect/rage should die.
If i hit in yellow stance with a 45degree shoulder/neck hit you should be dead if it made full contact.

I think what we would have overall would be a much more realistic damage for sabers, and a game that requires high levels of skill and tactics.
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Old 05-31-2002, 05:17 PM   #66
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...Did it ever occur to you that I posted the email on the Cynosure forums and NOT on JKII.net for a reason?


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Old 05-31-2002, 06:31 PM   #67
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That's why I made my little EULA before I posted it hehehehehe


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1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
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Old 05-31-2002, 08:46 PM   #68
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The reason I posted it at cynosure is that it isn't frequented by "Panicky Impatient 12-year-olds", and I thought it wouldn't be fair to chang to have him quoted as saying such in front of them. ;] After all, that email was from just after 1.03 was released, and the poor guy was probably pretty stressed with all the "OMG! U KILLED T3H DFA! U SUK!!!!11!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!" raven was most likely getting at that time.


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Old 05-31-2002, 09:04 PM   #69
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Indeed Aiee, Indeed...


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Old 05-31-2002, 09:11 PM   #70
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I understand Aiee, but I still had to do it because it did say they are working on something. Don't want people to lose hope. Anyway, you posted the thing, not me, so don't kill the messanger


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
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Old 05-31-2002, 09:15 PM   #71
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Ijust hope they leave it as it is now, players must adapt to the current patch. Weather its the old patch the current or a new future patch either way you have to adapt to the stronge and weakness of sabering. Just keep it at the current version, I'm just now getting the feel of it.


Ash-"Maybe ...just maybe my boys can stop them from getting the Book....right and I'm a Chinese jetpilot!" Army of Darkness
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Old 05-31-2002, 09:18 PM   #72
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It could have been worse, he could have LINKED to the cynosure forms.


there are few machines less flawed then man.
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Old 05-31-2002, 09:20 PM   #73
BlackDove
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And then they could see the whole post heh.....


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
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Old 05-31-2002, 09:24 PM   #74
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my thoughts...

I think the 1.03 patch was an improvement in the way of sabers, the DFA move was successfully balanced imo, the blocking may be a little high.. maybe a slight increase in saber damage or just less blocking would _balance_ it more.

as for the ammo, totally agree, slightly faster respawn on ammo and a slight increase in actual amounts of ammo....taking the skill away from aiming? if it was increased too much yes, but if it was balanced.. no... i'm not saying thats easy for raven to achieve being as its a personal preference depending on the players skill/style of play.

the backstab, I think it's damaged should just be reduced, like DFA was in 1.03. it wouldnt stop ppl using it but it wouldnt be so effective, in "unrealistic" situations (yes, fighting with lightsabers isnt realistic but for the sake of the game).

the force powers, i dont think its possible for raven to get a perfect balance with the.. 10+? factors. I think its fairly balanced right now, there's ppl who complain about push/pull etc. but then thats personal preference again.

i dont think its possible to make a patch to please everyone, due to styles of play, levels of play, gametypes. but i think the current patch is quite close to being fairly balanced, in the way that in a game you dont come out thinking 'god, that move's so cheap/spammed/annoyin' theres always going to be moves better than others, but i think as it is now it could be made slightly more 'balanced'

ok now flame me, call me a 'noob', just my view on this shindig.
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Old 05-31-2002, 09:27 PM   #75
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I need Eminem.....


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
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Old 06-01-2002, 03:05 AM   #76
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Red face Sigh...

Sheesh.. how many more of these threads do we need? It started out interesting enough, with something somewhat new being said, then it turns into the usual Raven/1.03 patch bashing and flaming between people over what should be changed if anything.

It's really old, can we talk about something else for a change? Or better yet, find a way to consolidate all of these cookie cutter whining's into one thread? (I can dream, can't I?)

Okay, got that off my chest... time to move on!
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Old 06-01-2002, 03:15 AM   #77
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these solutions, as well as the overly long posts, are making my head hurt. the right way to go about it is, "how can i make this like 1.02 and not messed up in any overly glaring ways"
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Old 06-01-2002, 03:30 AM   #78
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Quote:
It's really old, can we talk about something else for a change? Or better yet, find a way to consolidate all of these cookie cutter whining's into one thread? (I can dream, can't I?)
I thought admins could do that, merge threads or something...


Vestril was here!!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-01-2002, 12:37 PM   #79
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I didn't mean the thread to be this big actually. Just wanted the people that things are being worked on (well apparently), but I guess there is an over amount of people thinking how Raven will take their opinion into consideration...


There are only two constants in this world.
1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
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Old 06-01-2002, 01:13 PM   #80
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Havoc is right.. the game is supposed to be about fun.

Unfortunately, 1.03 made the game a lot less fun for me. But rather than mope about, I played 1.03 for a while and then wrote a well-written letter (not e-mail, for some things, being professional is better) to file my complaints with Raven Software. I still occasionally play 1.03 and, just as I didn't have any problems with the DFA in 1.02, I don't have any problems with the backstab spammers. It's the endless spinning and blocking just bores me to tears and the increased lag that keeps me from playing it more.

This is not to say that there aren't some fun aspects of 1.03, so I agree wholeheartedly with Havoc's post about a "hybrid" version between 1.02 and 1.03.

In my most humble of opinions, I'm saddened to see (and hear of) increased nerfing of the saber and force powers in a game that's sold off of the name Jedi Knight. Continue nerfing the saber and force powers and all we'll have is a Q3A wanna-be game set in a galaxy far, far away... If that happens, JK2 will probably be forgotten by most in late June/August when UT2k3 hits the shelves.
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