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Old 06-05-2002, 02:00 AM   #1
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The many things i hate about saber combat

JK2 features the first actual swordfighting i've seen in a pc game,
BUT there are so many ****ing flaws that people have been exploiting in MP i can't be quiet about it.

I know sword combat, I am practiced in competitive fencing (saber and foil) and i know a fair deal about staged combat for theatre and cinema. My father is a certified stage combat director and has worked proffesionally for stage and television. He trained with fencing master Patrick Crane. Mr. Crane had a long career during which he worked with the likes of Errol Flynn and even Count Dooku and Dracula himself Christopher Lee. Them and a lot of other old British actors of repute.
Anyways I've learned from 2 substantial authorities about fencinf and stage combat so i know my **** regarding those diciplines. Most of my knowledge about broadsword fighting (the closest style to lightsaber fighting) comes from the stage aspect as sparing with actual broadswords would incur intolerable amounts of injury.

So who the **** advised the raven team on swordfights for JK2?

There are no such things as one hit wonder super manuvers in actual swordfights. Having them in the game sucks the realism right out of it.
For example- the back-stab.
if you tired it in reality, would you be killed very quickly. Or fataly wounded and laughed at. You would deserve it. the point is: unless your opponent is ****ing you the ass at the time, THE MANUVER IS TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE!
go spar with someone and try it, you'll see what i mean.

Similar complaints about that upward cut done from a crouch. it would get your sword knocked to the ground and you decapitated.

I have no complaints about the quick, medium, strong style thing as it would be exceedingly difficult to simulate the changing level of force applied by a combatant.

So where is the patch to correct all this ****? which really isn't a lot considering it's just modifying a few moves.

PS: I loathe all of the people whoconstantly exploit those flawed moves. you are scum. the people who use force pull in conjunction with said cheap ******* manuvers are even worse scum. Need to correct that pull issue too. Someone get to work on the patch!


Think, damn it.
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Old 06-05-2002, 02:38 AM   #2
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Re: The many things i hate about saber combat

Quote:
Originally posted by Vicious
JK2 features the first actual swordfighting i've seen in a pc game,
BUT there are so many ****ing flaws that people have been exploiting in MP i can't be quiet about it.
Indeed, there have been few before, but I agree. JO is the first really *interesting* game that offers swordplay.

Quote:
Originally posted by Vicious I know sword combat, I am practiced in competitive fencing (saber and foil) and i know a fair deal about staged combat for theatre and cinema. My father is a certified stage combat director and has worked proffesionally for stage and television. He trained with fencing master Patrick Crane. Mr. Crane had a long career during which he worked with the likes of Errol Flynn and even Count Dooku and Dracula himself Christopher Lee. Them and a lot of other old British actors of repute.
Anyways I've learned from 2 substantial authorities about fencinf and stage combat so i know my **** regarding those diciplines. Most of my knowledge about broadsword fighting (the closest style to lightsaber fighting) comes from the stage aspect as sparing with actual broadswords would incur intolerable amounts of injury.
You seem to know quite a bit about sword fighting, would you like to mail me at etz@daug.net? I'm doing a mod with few other people and realism in saber combat is one of our goals. Perhaps you could advice us on the matter?

Quote:
Originally posted by Vicious So who the **** advised the raven team on swordfights for JK2?
My guess would be, no one. How ever computer games are usually very far from reality. And you have to admit, the single player works a lot better than MP which was probably an after though considering how bad some of its aspects are.

Quote:
Originally posted by Vicious There are no such things as one hit wonder super manuvers in actual swordfights. Having them in the game sucks the realism right out of it.
For example- the back-stab.
if you tired it in reality, would you be killed very quickly. Or fataly wounded and laughed at. You would deserve it. the point is: unless your opponent is ****ing you the ass at the time, THE MANUVER IS TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE!
go spar with someone and try it, you'll see what i mean.

Similar complaints about that upward cut done from a crouch. it would get your sword knocked to the ground and you decapitated.
I had the honor to attent a bastard sword class held by Guy Windsor once, unfortunately I moved out of my parents home to live with my girl friend and I now live bit too far to attent the classes regularly (http://www.swordschool.com for those who are interested). Even that one time however changed my view of what medieval sword fighting is for good.

Quote:
Originally posted by Vicious I have no complaints about the quick, medium, strong style thing as it would be exceedingly difficult to simulate the changing level of force applied by a combatant.

So where is the patch to correct all this ****? which really isn't a lot considering it's just modifying a few moves.
It's more than just few moves. The stances are inheritently flawed and will never work the way they are now. In our mod, things will work quite differently how ever.

Quote:
Originally posted by Vicious PS: I loathe all of the people whoconstantly exploit those flawed moves. you are scum. the people who use force pull in conjunction with said cheap ******* manuvers are even worse scum. Need to correct that pull issue too. Someone get to work on the patch!
I don't use backstab either, nor the medium special. I use DFA and light lunge occasionally, but I think those two moves are pretty well balanced compared to rest of the one trick wonders. Of course I haven't played in competitions so I don't know how things stand there. Just for fun until the MP is really fixed.
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Old 06-05-2002, 02:53 AM   #3
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fforlROFL!!!!!
elerfofllamaof lOLOL fLmao!
and I'm not even to the end of the first paragraph.................
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Old 06-05-2002, 03:23 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by HurT
fforlROFL!!!!!
elerfofllamaof lOLOL fLmao!
and I'm not even to the end of the first paragraph.................
And your post was somehow more informative than his? If you really don't have more to say than that then why reply at all? Did you find it amusing that he sought to get some leverage by telling that he knows more about real sword fighting than most of us? I didn't. JO is a computer game, but every game its base in reality, no matter how far.

When a game like JO is more about realism than absurdnes it means that the game is more intuitive to play. It makes sense and so will the choices you do during game play. Nothing fun about that either.

Common sense is good too.
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Old 06-05-2002, 03:44 AM   #5
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Im sorry, in fact I wasnt trying to flame or even add to the thread, just started laughing hysterically when he said "the likes of Errol Flynn" At first I thought he was joking.

No hard feelins, that just brought the funnay!
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Old 06-05-2002, 03:54 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by HurT
Im sorry, in fact I wasnt trying to flame or even add to the thread, just started laughing hysterically when he said "the likes of Errol Flynn" At first I thought he was joking.

No hard feelins, that just brought the funnay!
No, no hard feelings at all. Maybe I should have added a smiley or something, my reply was not intented to sound quite so harsh as it did.

Just next time quote the part that was funny
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Old 06-05-2002, 04:39 AM   #7
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what's so funny about Errol Flynn? Mr. Crane is an old man who worked with old actors, you doubt the validity of this?


Think, damn it.
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Old 06-05-2002, 06:39 AM   #8
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You have to understand that lightsaber-fighting isn't something realistic.
These guys doesn't have to see you to kill you (backstab) they can "feel" you. They can use the force to strengthen their attacks.
The thought of comparing sci-fi to real life (lightsabre figths to fencing) is almost redicolous. It's not supposed to be realistic.

Die by the sword was a "realistic" sword fighting game (your enemies wasn't very realistic). You had an actual sword and you fought other people with swords. In JKII you have a lightsabre, those things doesn't exist and therefor cant be compared to anything in our world.
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Old 06-05-2002, 06:43 AM   #9
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Vicious,

You may know everything there is to know about fencing etc. but the lightsabre is fictional! It has very little to do with reality.

Do broadsword cut through walls? No
Can you deflect bullets with broadswords? No
Can you use 'the force'? No
Can you do flips while using a broadsword? No

Now if anybody wants to make a mod that is actually based on fencing, thats fine. Everyone likes their own thing. But my point is, your fencing experience has precious little to do with lightsabre fighting.
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Old 06-05-2002, 06:48 AM   #10
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I actually prefer the jk saber fighting styles over any realism to be honest...

Look at ep 1 / 2, the flips, spins and combat moves are there to entertain. Since when does more realistic mean more fun. You could compare CounterStrike and Unreal Tournament...CS is more realistic, but UT is far more fun. Realistic lightsabres would be boring...isn't the whole point of games to "escape" reality?
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Old 06-05-2002, 07:30 AM   #11
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Smile Asuka hits the spot

Good point --^


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Old 06-05-2002, 09:45 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by EffJi
You have to understand that lightsaber-fighting isn't something realistic.
These guys doesn't have to see you to kill you (backstab) they can "feel" you. They can use the force to strengthen their attacks.
The thought of comparing sci-fi to real life (lightsabre figths to fencing) is almost redicolous. It's not supposed to be realistic.
We're all at the equal force level in this game, so tell me how a backstab can always hit and mostly kill in one blow, when the opponent can "feel" you exactly the same way you can. And the thought of comparing to realistic swordsmanship is not redicolous.
In the Classic Trilogy the saberfights are inspired by Kendo (or something like that) and I even think it's fights are made by someone with great knowledge in that art, or am I wrong?
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Old 06-05-2002, 09:49 AM   #13
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I would like to keep lightsaber combat as cobmat
with lightsabers which have energy blade which
is not affected by same physic laws as normal
blades........

And those spins and... they hmm looks cool..

----------------------------------------------------------------------

About those backstabs and...

Well with real lightsaber all attacks would be quite
much as powerfull when they hit because if you take
hit to hand, arm, leg or foot that saber would most
likely cut it off -- (And when you lose some of those
body parts in real life you might live after that but
anyway for sure you wouldn't be able to fight...
so no difference...)

And no matter if you get sliced in two from your waist
or if you get stab to your chest result would be same
(you would die) of cource after stab you might not die
immediately but you wouldn't be able to fight and
anyway you would die sooner or later... and hit
to head would kill you immediately

Real Lightsaber = Hit and kill weapon...
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Old 06-05-2002, 10:00 AM   #14
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Weight

they are very light, only the handle has the weight so any move realy should be quick and fast. seems funny how slow they move knowing that it's a little heavier than a remote control for ur tv
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Old 06-05-2002, 10:16 AM   #15
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There's been another thread about that some time back :> Got quite heated as I recall. The upshot was two camps: Camp 1 believed the saber blade actually did have weight, for some reason) and camp 2 believed it didn't, but that some other factor required the style of fighting that was used.

I think it just looked cool on film originally, and that's the way it's been since then.
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Old 06-05-2002, 10:17 AM   #16
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The backstabs are being overused, I'm aware of that.
They would be okay if they weren't used so much.

About the "feel" thing: When two jedi fight eachother they might cancel eachother out on the predict apartment, but still be able to know were the opponent is. That would explain the backstab.
Jedi 1 could feel jedi 2:s presence behind him, but jedi 2 wouldn't know what jedi 1 is going to do.

In the newer movies (and possibly JO) the lightsabre fights are inspired by a few kinds of japanese matrial arts as well as tennis swings and woodchopping. And the guy who played Darth Maul (Parks something) is a matrial arts expert and he helped out with the coreographics. Don't know if they did that in the OT.

And yes, comparing lightsabre fights to fencing (or any other kind of real-life sword-swinging) IS redicolous. Why? Because there are no damn lightsabres in real-life!!! And real-life fencing is lame, I have seen fencing it doesn't look very fun. Two guys trying to stab the other guys chest, no blocking no parrying just try to hit the other guy before he hits you.

With fencing I mean the sport since people doesn't duel anymore (since the invention of the gun).
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Old 06-05-2002, 11:11 AM   #17
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Comparing lightsabers to broadswords *DOES* make sense.
I hit you in the chest with a lightsaber swung like a bo stick: You die.
I hit you in the chest with a broadsword: You die.
Deflecting bullets and cutting through walls is all good, but they still *fight* realistically in the movies. Not so in this game.

It's all lethal, not just lightsabers people. And the fighting style used in the movies *were* based on actual swordfighting, so it makes even more sense to compare the two.

What if they equipped the jedi and sith with katanas in the movies instead of ligthsabers? It would be *JUST* as lethal and the fighting style would be nearly identical.

What I miss right now in this game, is that actual swordfighting isn't encouraged nor rewarded. The game's focus is on the specials, not the *actual* saber-fencing.

Geez, some people stall at the word "realism", and just can't get in their heads that realism and games can be mixed.
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Old 06-05-2002, 11:19 AM   #18
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Funnily enough I had a few surprised people ask me "You don't use specials? Why? Can't you do them?" when I fought them, because my main style involves use of normal swings. I rarely use special moves apart from the odd DFA and backswing. True I can't get the yellow special right for love nor money (damn it), but I don't use em because I like the fighting, the blocking and so on. It makes a fight more fun (plus I have a general idea of when and where to strike to get past the blocking). I even avoid blue stance unless I need to fall vast distances (and I mean vast, not just a bit of a big fall, I'm talking top of NS to the bottom), I know how to roll.

EffJi, are you referring to rapier fencing? That is pretty boring, but is the type you described. I think saber fencing (using both point and edge) is generally more interesting, but the problem really boils down to the fact that the rules are hit your opponent first to win. This means it comes down to reflexes not skill. Annoying. Try taking up fantasy LARPing, you'll find a lot of sword fighting going on then (using rubber swords mind), and it's a lot of fun too.
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Old 06-05-2002, 11:20 AM   #19
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I like the backstab in singleplayer its loads of fun even if its overused in MP...if you've played the Demo mission the last part where Jan is being held hostage and when she sees you she attacks the dude with the gun...If you run do a flip land behind the guy you can de a sweet backstand to kill him..it happens fast and i did it the first time on accident but damn! it was sweeT!

What would make the game better if saber fights lasted a little longer instead of Push/Pull fest with the Finishing move of Backstab/DFA or whatever...


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