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Old 07-05-2002, 01:29 PM   #1
XERXES
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Thumbs down ahhhhhhhhhh

this goes for all games, as well as jk2...i wish people would just stop complaining every time they die and just play the damn game. I was playing alien versus predator 2, and every 5 seconds the marine team was like...damn you aliens, stop spawnkilling...or dumbass predators are disc spamming..im about to scream. If your gona buy a game and moan and groan and gripe about it, why the hell did you buy it in the first place. Just play the game and enjoy it. sheeeeeeeeesh


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Old 07-05-2002, 01:34 PM   #2
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=) I Agree


Comments Are Welcome Flamers Are Not.

"Whatever Works"
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Old 07-05-2002, 03:49 PM   #3
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but whinings half the fun


I find it funny when people whine about a perfectly legit kill.


you-That was luck.

me-Luck!?! I had 100/25. You never even landed a hit!

you-Thats why your so lucky. I would've killed you if my backstabs hit you.

me-Um yes...You would have, but they didn't.


Never really happend, but it will...someday.


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Old 07-05-2002, 07:04 PM   #4
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heh i know what you mean

i was on a duel server and i was using sabre throw a lot...i admit i was whoring the move but it wasnt so bad- if it was a powerful move we would all hear about 'sabre throw whores' but we dont, we hear about people who dfa and backstab because the saber throw isnt a powerful move and can be countered so this means less people use it

and i started killing everyone on the server and one of them started swearing at me, it was so funny! at the start of one of my duels against him he was talking ( i rarely ever ever saber someone when theyre talking) but the guy was standing there swearing at me and he thought i was gonna stop attacking him so he could swear at me!!! i showed him whos the daddy

so he carried on and on swearing and i said to him "I dont find your swearing insulting or impressive, it merely shows ur immaturity" and with that i left the server. people with attitude problems like this ought to be left alone- its not worth fighting a bad loser!


Back in Black
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Old 07-05-2002, 07:48 PM   #5
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Sore losers can be found in any Multi player game. Just ignore their rants made over chat and keep killing them every chance you get. Works for me!

Kaan
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Old 07-05-2002, 11:55 PM   #6
XERXES
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ususally in AVP2 if people start spawn killin me....instead of complanin and fussin, i just do it back to them


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Old 07-06-2002, 12:53 AM   #7
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Their are times when it is senseless whining and times their is a reason to complain. NO ONE can say that a guy runnign around backward the whole game should be at the top of the score borad. And thou I've never played AvP2 I do know spawn camping as in you sit on their spawn piont unmoving and kill them before they even turn around. It can be EXTREMLY hard to stop not mention a fun killer of the highest order. Even more so if a team is doing it most games have a way to keep guys out of a spawn but some don't operation flashpiont for instance and to make it worst alot that don't also have camofulge and so finding the spawn camper can be very hard since he drops before you can even look around.

As to why people "whine". If we all followed your advice the company would never know they made a mistake. You shouldn't whine for a whole year but you should make your discontent known less it never be fixed. An example is EE they promised a patch to fix the probelms in the game. This shut up many people They didn't piont out what was wrong. The company thought nothing was wrong and decided on an X-pack that focused on SP casue MP was so good and well balaced . The patch never came the company now thinks they made a great game casue no one said otherwise and the chance to tell them they didn't has passed . Most games that come out are fairly good but most also have things that are poorly thought out, bugs, and featrues run amok. It's up to players to piont these out.
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Old 07-06-2002, 01:33 AM   #8
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My philosophy in MP is simple.

If someone kills me, using whatever tactic, then it's my fault for letting them.

The only tactic in this game I disagree with is the rapid-spinning backstab/slash. That, to me, is a little overboard.

But, if I lose, I just try not to let the same thing happen again next time.


I'm not good enough to have a sig-line.
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Old 07-06-2002, 01:34 AM   #9
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Talk about whiners...
I was playing CTF on ns_streets the other day and was b*tched at because I was using the Homing Rockets. People don't know how to dodge them or push them away and so they call me a cheap @$$. One guy was actually complaing about "Damn Guns!!" on a guns servers. How bright is that.

Stupid complainers.


DarthNoodles out...
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Old 07-06-2002, 03:40 AM   #10
[RAA]-=Chi3f=-
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Cool Guy Bless the whiners

3 Cheers for the whiners!

hip hip HOORAY

They're half the fun. In a DUEL match I saw a guy own for 5 rounds, but as soon as he lost he started swearing up a storm and left. LOL

Play like a , get treated like a says us.


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Old 07-06-2002, 01:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gaming Nut
Their are times when it is senseless whining and times their is a reason to complain. NO ONE can say that a guy runnign around backward the whole game should be at the top of the score borad.
You are 100% right my amigo.
But I look at that statement in a way you do not.
If a person running around backwards, not even looking at you can beat you; you are either inexperienced or not very good.
I am sorry to burst anyone’s bubble, but you "I've been playing this game since the day it came out" people who still complain about backstabs need to move on to something slower like Zoo Tycoon.
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Old 07-06-2002, 06:54 PM   #12
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Bleh.. I love the clever answers of some people that miss the whole point of -as you call them- whiners..

I had to stop playing this game -and complained quite a bit about its problems in this forums- because of the cheap players that filled the servers (namely people that do nothing but pull-backslash, preferably with absorb on 24/7).

The point is: it doesn't matter whether you know how to counter that crap or not.. you SHOULDN'T have to. I myself didn't find it that hard to beat those lamers.. some I would kill them pretty easily backflipping on them or using a yellow finisher, some not.. either way playing with that people is not fun at all for many people like me. When you kill a lame backstabber running backwards you don't think: wow, what a great fight.. you just think: wow, what a retarted punk.. . When you kill 15 BS whores during a game you don't think: what a great game, and nice win. You think: I hope all those ******* lamers would do something else, like sticking their tongue in a shredder and finding out how many chunks come out..
If you ever tried fighting with the saber like before the patch (anything but backstab/backslash) without absorb, you were bound to be pulled and BS..

Before the damn patch I used to play for hours, using all kind of saber moves/force powers, almost never guns.
Now all you find is people spamming pull-backslash, using absorb all the time. Seeing anything else on a server (people using grip/rage/drain/protect, or regular saber swings, is almost impossible.

I had a blast playing 1.02, and even if gunners were usually on top of the scoreboard I was happy to be always among the first 3. Now if I want to be on top I either have to spend the whole time pulling/pushing people off ledges or use BS/yellow finishers all the time, and I find it pretty boring. If you like that kind of playstyle, that's fine. When I pay for broadband to play with human people, I expect I bit more of variety than a bot match.

Last edited by Bill_st; 07-06-2002 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 07-06-2002, 07:20 PM   #13
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I agree with Bill_st.

It's no fun when the game's beating up one useless punk after another.


Fuel burning space polluting X-Wings!
You probably have seat
belts with those shield of yours!
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Old 07-07-2002, 12:28 AM   #14
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Agreed. You're all trying to b righteous and say how whiners are stupid useless punks, but I bought this game for the variety it promised. It has lost it's variety, and the only way I can feel a sense of satisfaction with the game is to try and kill all the backstabbers without backstabbing.

Raven better be doing something.


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Old 07-07-2002, 03:55 AM   #15
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talk out whiners... I was playing in a duel NF server... and I obviously was Owning... b/c my scrore was 10/0.. and ppl thought that i was cheating somehow... WTF!


It is obvious this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with the lightsaber."

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Old 07-07-2002, 04:37 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bill_st

The point is: it doesn't matter whether you know how to counter that crap or not.. you SHOULDN'T have to.
I see your point, but why should I have to listen to people constantly complain and whine about how I beat them?

I bought the game just like you, to have fun.

You say backstabbing ruins it for you.
People who constantly complain ruin it for me.

I should be able to enjoy a game and not have to make excuses or defend myself because you as a player, do not approve of how I choose to attack/kill you.

You don't like it?
Leave.
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Old 07-07-2002, 04:53 AM   #17
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When will people learn, if it is in the game...find a way to beat it,don't whine about it. BS, backslash,kick, etc., these are all legitimate moves. Sure, they can be spammed ad naseaum, but that is simply a challenge for a good player to prove the superiority of balanced play. And if the play is so annoying...just go elsewhere, there are many servers and many clans that enforce fair play!
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Old 07-07-2002, 08:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
The point is: it doesn't matter whether you know how to counter that crap or not.. you SHOULDN'T have to.
You shouldn't have to learn to counter a valid tactic that's built into the game? SINCE WHEN?!?
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Old 07-07-2002, 09:42 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Con. Snake
You shouldn't have to learn to counter a valid tactic that's built into the game? SINCE WHEN?!?
How many games do you know have one tactic?


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Old 07-07-2002, 09:47 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by VeKToR


How many games do you know have one tactic?

pong.

space invaders.

centipede.



as long as this stays about jkii, it can stay. otherwise swamp time


Spy
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Old 07-07-2002, 10:01 AM   #21
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Ah but part of the BS moves are NOT legit moves, at least not when people spin while doing it. Raven said that moving while backsweep/stabing was meant to be fixed like the DFA but the guy forgot. So they really are bug exploiters if you want to see it like that :P play 1.03a
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Old 07-07-2002, 10:43 AM   #22
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..

Quote:
The point is: it doesn't matter whether you know how to counter that crap or not.. you SHOULDN'T have to.
Amen brother.

Only thing I can tell you is to just find a server where the lame CS kiddies wont last long, where their crap is not put up with. Those servers are there, just gotta find em.
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Old 07-07-2002, 11:26 AM   #23
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I can't play JK2 but I know what its like with Jedi Knight and the SBX 3.1 mod. Theres somebody who whines about losing. If you lose, don't whine. Go back out there and fight them again.


Remember the breeze across your face
Remember the swaying sleeves in the wind
Remember the grains of sand beneath your feet
between your toes
Remember the freedom in the never ending waves

Remember I'll be at the beach.


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Old 07-07-2002, 03:39 PM   #24
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Thumbs down Bad sports

Unfortunately in JK2, other computer games and in real life there are going to be people who cheat, play unfairly, and/or whine.

The best thing to do in the case of move-spammers is learn how to defeat them. If you see someone handing a pull-backstabber's @$$ to them time and time again, watch them, and ask for advice. Think of strategies to beat them. As soon as they realise that they can't kill you with the same move over and over again they'll either find a new strategy, or leave you alone.

The problem is it takes a lot of them a while to realise.

The Force will be with you, always.


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Old 07-07-2002, 05:20 PM   #25
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Thumbs down (try not to take this the wrong way...)

Quote:
The point is: it doesn't matter whether you know how to counter that crap or not.. you SHOULDN'T have to.
Forgive me if this sounds rude, but that's the STUPIDEST thing I've heard anyone say in this discussion. It makes no sense, and I will explain why.

Sure, some things are more difficult to counter than others, and some stuff takes time to master. Is that a reason to remove it entirely just because its hard? Now before you answer that question, think about this:

First Person Shooters are INHERENTLY COMPETATIVE in multiplayer (it's you and/or your team, verses another individual or team, even in co-op its the human team verses the computer's team). They are setup around the principles of tactics and counter tactics. This is especially apparent in games such as the Dark Forces series, beginning with Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II.

The Dark and Light sides of the Force are setup as counters to each other. The lightsaber is setup as a counter to blaster weapons, and explosives are setup as counters to other types of tactics, such as pursuers and melee fighters. The whole game is based on countering, and so to say that we shouldn't have to counter something that is commonly whined about like the DFA or the Backstab or Grip or Absorb or whatever you want, is silly.

The game is fundamentally based on learning to anticipate your opponent's movements, countering them, and adapting in order to overcome them and win. That's what the game is all about.

Some people modify their gameplay style in order to hurt people's feelings (cheaters) or to make believe they are real-life Jedi (role players) but most play simply for the sake of the game, that is, to try to kill the enemy before he kills you/take his flag before he takes your's, and to be successful in that endeavor (rather than simply having it be a random numbers game) they have to practice and learn.

All of the DF games from JK to JK2 have been like this and I think that is part of their success... even when compared to more popular FPSs: they are easy to learn, but take more time to master. Granted, they attract many Star Wars fans, but they have to have substance in order to provide long-term play-value. I'm sure you can think of many Star Wars based games that are NOT inclined to long-term play value and lack the depth of the DF series...

What some people want is for their playing style to be the ONLY playing style possible (for example, many role players have asked for this in the history of these forums), which would require either mods to be made or official patches to be released that facilitated those options. Some of this has happened.. a few people have tried to create mods that modify the gameplay more towards their liking, that's fine. People who don't wish to play their way can still play without the mods. Raven's patches and unofficial updates in the source have mainly offered MORE options, rather than less, which I think is the right way to go. The DF series has always been about options (since JK, again) allowing people to play how they want to play. But I think it's silly to try to stop the majority of people from playing how they want by limiting the options through official patches that remove everything to facilitate roleplaying.

As I have said before, I feel that deep down this argument about game dynamics and patches comes down to those who wish the game to be a fun and competative FPS and those who wish the game to be a role-playing environment for their star wars fantasies and the fundamentally different approaches of those two groups of people, to how they play the game.

My advice to those who don't get their way, is to stop whining, and play on servers that play with the rules you want and/or create mods that implement the changes in gameplay you want. Even "cheaters" can play in private servers with other cheaters and in that way not impose on anyone else. The worst thing to do is complain and ruin it for others by trying to force them to play it your way. If roleplaying is your thing, do it on YOUR server, and respect the rights of others to play other ways, even more conventional ways. This is not a problem. I just feel that roleplayers need to realize that the default settings of the game, used by perhaps the largest numbers of people are geared towards competative play, in the classical structure used by FPS games since Doom and Quake.

Again, I don't mean to be nasty, but I just had to respond to that, since it seems like with an attitude like that, you shouldn't be playing multiplayer games like this in the first place...
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Old 07-07-2002, 07:10 PM   #26
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Anyone who thinks that backstab/sweep/assfighting should learned to be countered and not simply fixed, probably drives his car backwards on the highway, and thinks it's okay when people find 'god mode' cheats in games.

It simply looks stupid, ruins gameplay and fun, and should be fixed.

Denying this is beyond irrational.

The solutions are plenty - but what we truly need is an official patch.

It's nearly as bad as if someone learned how to instantly respawn with the BFG in Quake 3 - but other people said, hey use it yourself or learn to counter it.

Not only does it ruin gameplay, it's just stupid to watch and boring.

If you consider assfighting a play style, than we have nothing to talk about. That's like playing a racing game and finding out that reverse gear when you pump the pedal 3 times, gives you 200 + miles an hour.

Should it be fixed... absolutely.

The game needs the source code patch period (mod 1.04) - that will solve 99% of most problems (mainly being assfighting).

It's rather abusive for an admin to say someone's ideas or opinions are stupid - you should make a seperate account to do that. Argue with the idea not the person - you basically told this guy he's stupid. If you know what you post will be rude, why post it? Especially an admin. That's just wrong.

But than again, it does explain why a few of the flame posters get their way, huh.

P.S. My server is running the 1.04 mod (nothing changed but simply what Raven did).

Last edited by QuietSith; 07-07-2002 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 07-08-2002, 12:55 AM   #27
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well, Quietsith... we've all heard your opinion a million times and frankly I don't agree with you. and it's just a wee bit hypocritical of you to flame someone else for "calling people stupid" when you do that yourself quite frequently, especially if they disagree with you on this issue. If the only argument you can level is, "You don't agree with me, you're obviously stupid", well buddy, you've lost the argument. I don't have the time to cull through your posts, but when you first joined this board, you were nice, polite, gave your opinion and didn't seem to mind that other people MIGHT disagree with you. Then you gained confidence, gathered some disciples, and now you're a prick half the time, at about this time I stopped reading most of your posts. Anyway, back to your opinion... that doesn't make you wrong, it certainly doesn't make me wrong it's just the point that in a democracy every idiot is entitled to their opinion, no matter how idiotic it may be.

wouldn't that extend to a server admin as well? I actually respect him more for using his real handle instead of hiding behind an alias, which you suggested, but that's just my opinion which is counter to yours. point is, we're allowed to say what we want, why can't he? and I respect the guys who aren't afraid to show they disagree with him, unlike the guys who make a point to agree with everything he says JUST BECAUSE HE IS AN ADMIN. it just so happens, that on this VERY hilarious issue I agree with him.

and Homosexual Ewok confirmed this, I would have to agree with it as well: running around backwards, yes does look foolish. believe it or not, a lot of "backsweepers" will only turn around at the last second before delivering the killing sweep. And while we aren't denying your right to an opinion, saying, "It simply looks stupid, ruins gameplay and fun, and should be fixed. Denying this is beyond irrational. " simply shows that you're not ready to accept that the fact that yes, other people have differing opinions for you OMG, someone disagrees with QuietSith, maker of some CTF mod I'll never play.

I don't think assfighting ruins the game, at least not for good players. It looks stupid, but big deal, jumping up and down, spamming a blue or yellow combo (the one that always does the top down forward hack) looks even more ridiculous. and maybe the designers put backsweep and made it extremely powerful for a reason: IT SPEEDS UP GAMEPLAY. While I won't deny the fact that many people would enjoy a nice 30 minute saber duel, you would have to agree that just as many people want to kill people quickly, so the board can be finished quickly, so they get their Jedi fix quickly, and can go back to spending time with the significant others quickly. But that's just my opinion, and now you can tell me how wrong and retarded I am, because you are always right.

Last edited by technobot; 07-08-2002 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 07-08-2002, 01:08 AM   #28
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I've been kind of silent for a while on this board, and haven't posted lately, so naturally, I was surprised to see the same old rants popping up after my month-long hiatus.

This thread seems to have migrated from being purely about how annoying whiners are (and they can be annoying), to how some whines are legit (IE: the backstab/sweep debate), to how games should have more than one tactic/learn to deal with a spammed tactic/etc.

So, in keeping with the most recent bent of this thread, the spammed tactic discussion, I offer the following.

Kurgan makes an interesting point in that there are, roughly speaking, two styles of play in this game: the FPSers and the RPGers. Now, I don't fully agree with this, but the point about people having differing styles of play is important. I think, personally, that I'd tend to fall more into the RPG camp, but not entirely. When I bought this game, I was looking for a Star Wars FPS game. The single player experience gave that to me, and the multiplayer, as of 1.02, did not. When Raven patched the game, for a while at least, the 1.03 version added much of what I'd wanted. Basically, I wanted saber fights to be like they were in single player, because the environment felt more immersive and fun. Fights were more flashy, you could actually block, and therefore it was less of the jousting match that 1.02 was. Unfortunately, there were some problems. Blocking was SO increased that it began to take up to 5 min to kill someone if you were both playing it safe.

Now, me, I don't mind this. I view a 5 min fight as an intense duel, and one that I would likely enjoy. But a lot of folks felt that this was taking too long, and so they began to search for moves that were, effectively, one hit/one kill moves, like the old DFA was. For the record, the modified DFA move IS a one hit-kill move, you just have to time it absolutely perfectly (to the point of it being basically useless) to kill with it. Anyway, as people searched around they found the backstab. This, of course, led to the ass fighters, but those folks are easily dealt with. The real problem comes in the form of the pull/backstabbers, and the fact that the backsweep lets you rotate around to score kills all over the place.

So, what's this got to do with the issue of whining, you say? Well, here's where I differ from Kurgan. He made the point that it comes down to the FPSers and the RPGers in this game. I disagree to an extent. I think it comes down to two styles of play, as he said, but not necessarily the FPS/RPG distinction. Really, I think the distinction comes down to "Win at any cost" vs. "Have fun while trying to win".

On the one hand, we have the people who figure if any move is in the game, be it one that's clearly an exploit (IE: floating down from a cliff with the light stance lunge) or one that was always meant to be used (IE: the yellow finisher), it's legit. This is the WAAC (see above) group. They'll use the "legit" move they've found, rack of the kills, and keep playing. If they find one particular move that lets them kill easily over and over, they use it, almost exclusively. Try doing a search (if the search function is active again...) for a few threads surrounding a guy named ArtifeX's grand announcement of leaving the game.

For those who don't know, ArtifeX (I think that was his name, anyway), ran this website called the anti-saberists code or something. It was basically a backlash against a group of folks who wanted to create a set of self-imposed "rules" about how to play. Not so much rules, maybe, as much as just a code of conduct that adherents would use to play. Anyway, ArtifeX took the attitude of "If it's in the game, it's legit, and f**k you for telling me how to play MY game." He did a fair amount of research on how much damage certain moves caused, and posted this info, as well as various tactics, on his website. Needless to say, his favorite move (from what we saw, anyway) was none other than the backstab. And he used it exclusively to win. And win he did. According to him, he lost very very few matches using his technique of pull/backstab the other guy first.

So, why'd he leave the game? He got bored. So he says, anyway (there was some speculation that he was pissed about being beaten, but I think he probably did get bored). Basically, he felt that the game was not much fun anymore, because all he ever did was spam the backstab move (since the game "forced" him to do this in order to win), and this naturally got old after a while. Plenty of folks laughed at this response, and chided him for being the architect of his own demise. But that's how he wanted to play: he was hell-bent on winning, and used any legitimate tactic he could to win. When it became clear that the best "legit" tactic was the backstab/pull combo, he used that exclusively, until he bored himself out of the game. Remember this point. I'll come back to it later.

Now then, the other side of the debate is, in my mind, the people who feel that, just because it's in the game, you don't HAVE to use it exclusively. Winning isn't everything, nor is it the only thing. The most important aspect is having fun. Towards this end, variety is what helps make the game fun. Even in old games like Doom, where you couldn't duck, roll, jump, or even aim at a different level directly, you still had the variety of weapons. Doing nothing but the backstab pull combo would be, at least to my way of thinking, like playing Doom with nothing but the BFG all the time. And, as one can imagine, that'd get pretty damn boring after a while.

When folks complain about the backstab/sweep issue, I think it's a legitimate gripe. Not necessarily because the move is "cheap" or "lame", but because it's unbalanced and detracts from the fun of playing the game. And not just for those who have to try to avoid it: for those who use it as well. The key problem with the backstab is that, while it has a huge benefit to it, there is no corresponding detrimental effect of using it (at least, as of 1.03, before the SDK, and before people figured out the ghoul2collision, etc. stuff). The move was not unbeatable (I can beat it by turning on absorb -- no more pull that way -- and flipkicking whoever is spinning to attack me). It's difficult to beat, though, when the entire server is populated by people who do nothing BUT that move.

I can handle a one-on-one fight against a backstabber, usually, just like I can handle a one on one fight against a guy who mostly uses the yellow finisher. However, it's not much FUN to have to play against people who use nothign but one move over and over again. And I imagine that the people who use nothing but one move over and over must get bored themselves. Look at ArtifeX. He got so bored that he left the game. Personally, I think that one-hit kill moves are a bad idea, unless they're really hard to pull off (IE: the DFA) or they leave you open to counter attack for a while, or have some other detrimental effect (Maybe they consume health or force to use, I dunno). Or, you should make EVERY hit a one-hit kill, such that the various "finishing" moves are just different options to use to kill a guy in one hit, not simply the only way to do it.

Anyway, the point of this whole Russian novel of a post is that complaining about certain moves CAN be legitimate, when those moves make the game less fun for ALL involved. Moves like the backstab/sweep, prior to the SDK patch and people's discovery of ghoul2collision and the sabertrace variable, were real problems. They unbalanced the game, and made it so that one particular tactic was THE king tactic to use. And if you weren't using that tactic yourself, you were going to lose. Period. End of discussion. That's not how a game should play. Now, I'm not trying to impose my style of playing on other people, but I'd imagine that even the people who have the "win at all costs" attitude will grow tired of winning with nothing but one particular move. It would be almost like finding god mode in a game. Sure you can win the game, but after a while, you get bored with just running around killing things and not having any kind of challenge set before you. That's the end result of uber-moves, uber-weapons, or anything else that becomes a dominant tactic in any MP game. MP games should be about balance. Sure, some weapons are more powerful than others. The rocket launcher will deal out MASSIVE amounts of damage if you hit with it. BUT, its missiles can be pushed back at you, and can be avoided if you move fast enough. On the other hand, the bryar pistol can be a very VERY weak weapon, but when used effectively, it can be deadly. Balance, folks. Balance. The same should go for sabre combat. Heavy stance is slow and doesn't block well, but deals out large amounts of damage. Light stance is fast and blocks well, but deals out weak damage. Medium stance is a balance of the two, but excels at neither defense nor attack. Balance. Any moves that correspond to these various stances should be similarly balanced, and complaining about the spamming of a tactic is legit, provided it's directed at the right audience.

Complaining to the guy who just killed you, well, that solves nothing. And in this, many of the posters here are right. If you don't liek the way someone plays, find a server that plays your style of playing. And rest easy in the notion that eventually the spammers will grow tired of the game and move on. But, complaining to a developer about a problem in the game that unbalances the game and will ultimately lead to people getting bored with and giving up on the game, that's a legitimate gripe.

Here endeth the post.
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Old 07-08-2002, 02:30 AM   #29
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*whine* i whish people would stop whining */whine*


Size Matters Not!

Small my weinie is,
but laid i still get
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Old 07-08-2002, 02:47 AM   #30
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The funny thing is, these people who are complaining about v1.03 are the people who brought about the patch in the first place.
DFA IS GAY FIX IT!
DRAIN IS GAY FIX IT!
STUPID RED STANCE FIX IT!
GRIP IS GAY FIX IT!
You got your patch, don't like it do you?

Seriously, how damn weak does this game have to be made before you people will be happy?

OMFG! HE KILLED ME WITH 5 KICKS! YES 5 KICKS!

You guys have your Special Olympics mods, you have your servers, stfu, go play on them and leave the rest of us alone you damn PTA letter writing-soccer mom-mentality babies.
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Old 07-08-2002, 03:18 AM   #31
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Well said Homo Ewok


I can talk my way out of any fight. but i always throw the first punch just incase

Bounce!

Admin on Jedi Fortress's Jedi Vs Merc vs Sith server
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Old 07-08-2002, 05:33 AM   #32
Kurgan
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Post Force Long Post part 2

First off, pardon the Force Long Posts, and I hope nobody feels bad having an admin argue with them. Don't worry, it's all good here, I just feel like expressing my opinions. =)

Quote:
Anyone who thinks that backstab/sweep/assfighting should learned to be countered and not simply fixed, probably drives his car backwards on the highway, and thinks it's okay when people find 'god mode' cheats in games.

It simply looks stupid, ruins gameplay and fun, and should be fixed.

Denying this is beyond irrational.
I disagree. Several people have pointed out (in this and other threads) how they don't have a problem with these players (ie: they don't lose to them). So for these folks, they have found a way to "beat" the "assfighters." So they already have a solution... change your tactics. That doesn't require a patch. It doesn't ruin their gameplay for them, or their fun.

Have you ever played against somebody who was playing their first game? They weren't much of a challenge were they? How did you make that situation fun? Just a rhetorical question... but I'd suggest other tactics they could use. But I'd leave them to form their own playing style.

Quote:
The solutions are plenty - but what we truly need is an official patch.
I'd say it's never enough. There will always be some tactics that some people don't like and they will always wish for a patch. I think it makes more sense to simply adapt to the changes and if a new patch comes out, adapt to that as well. You can give up playing the game until a new official patch comes out, but you may have a long wait...

These aren't game-stopping bugs we're talking about. It's a move or tactic that annoys some people, that can be countered, but some people just don't WANT to deal with it, so they'd rather have it removed.

Quote:
It's nearly as bad as if someone learned how to instantly respawn with the BFG in Quake 3 - but other people said, hey use it yourself or learn to counter it.
No, it's not. Everyone (unless you set it to saber attack = 0) starts with a saber, so everyone can use the backstab. All it requires is pressing back+attack (as it says in the manual) with any stance, when somebody is behind you! Spawning with the BFG is something that nobody does normally. This is more equivalent to rocket jumping. Somebody learns how to rocket jump, and instead of others learning how to deal with it maybe even learning how to do it themselves, they say remove rocket jumping from the game.

Quote:
Not only does it ruin gameplay, it's just stupid to watch and boring.

If you consider assfighting a play style, than we have nothing to talk about. That's like playing a racing game and finding out that reverse gear when you pump the pedal 3 times, gives you 200 + miles an hour.
"assfighting" meaning running around with your back turned trying to do the backstab. Well, a lot of people complain about being able to run backwards, but guess what? That's part of FPS games. Rocket jumping looks absolutely silly, and is totally unrealistic, yet it's part of most FPS games (not JK2 however)!

The story goes that Carmack removed RJing from the code during the Q3 test, but he got such a huge backlash from testers that he had to put it back in to save face!

In most FPS games the characters run much faster than any human could ever go, and never get tired. The only FPS game I've played where you get tired is Outlaws. R6 and other "special ops" based games have you run slow, but most FPS games have you running about 40-80 MPH! Even the fastest human would be hard pressed to run 20 MPH, much less all the time in combat.

What about all those weapons, how do you carry them all? Where do you store them? How come those weapons never need to be serviced? How are you able to take so many direct hits, unshielded, and not go unconscious or bleed, etc. etc?

Many tactics look "stupid" or "unrealistic" but that doesn't matter. Again, it's part of the FPS genre at large, and most of those things have not affected the enjoyment of them for players in the least. For some reason, people are trying to hold a Star Wars game to higher standards of realism and "movie-ness" (everything has to be dramatic and in slo-mo) than other FPS games. If you take a look at most FPS games, you'll see realism enhancing "touches" added (like headshots, or reloading) but most of the core game is always inherently unrealistic, to facilitate gameplay.

As far as tactics, it's like Chess. The Queen is super powerful! She is stronger than any other piece! It's not very cool that the Queen can move out in only a couple of moves and start wreaking havoc, yet its part of the game, the majority of players have accepted it, and have been forced to develop tactics to counter-act it. It's the same way here.

What do you do in a duel if the other player just hits the jump key constantly? They're harder to hit, right? Why is that illegal? I'd say it's perfectly legal. Maybe silly and boring, but it's how they choose to play.

"Fixing" these things is just another way of saying "I can't beat it, so make it so it can't be done." First off, it's not a foolproof strategy, as many have pointed out (they say it's easy to beat these people), so why is it a problem? There's a million other ways people can annoy you and make the battle silly.

Quote:
Should it be fixed... absolutely.

The game needs the source code patch period (mod 1.04) - that will solve 99% of most problems (mainly being assfighting).
I've read posts where people have pointed out that even the so-called 1.04 changes don't fix everything. My feeling is that they'd still complain even after that...


Quote:
It's rather abusive for an admin to say someone's ideas or opinions are stupid - you should make a seperate account to do that. Argue with the idea not the person - you basically told this guy he's stupid. If you know what you post will be rude, why post it? Especially an admin. That's just wrong.
Well, frankly, I'm just doing what many others have done. Notice I'm not calling YOU (or anyone else whom I've disagreed with) stupid, I wouldn't do that. Perhaps it wasn't the nicest way of saying it, but I admitted that. I disagree strongly (even if it is just a game opinion). Maybe saying that I feel their arguments are "fatally flawed" is more charitable?

Quote:
P.S. My server is running the 1.04 mod (nothing changed but simply what Raven did).
That's a start. Like I said, play what you want, if that's closer to what you like, then use it.

The way I see it, the arguments against the Backstab (and the so-called "assfighting" it can lead to) are doing so for aesthetic reasons. I remember when the JK2 vids came out everyone was talking about how AWESOME the backstab looked. Since the game came out, people have done nothing but complain. I guess Raven misjudged those fans, huh?
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Old 07-08-2002, 05:55 AM   #33
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Oh, and one other thing I forgot (heh), is the idea of Raven putting new changes in and admitting they forgot to fix this and that.

As it is now, people have pointed out that they can still win without using it and can defeat people who use it exclusively. So even if the game is not what Raven wanted in the final analysis, it's still not "broken."

Sort of like if Carmack had taken out Rocket Jumping. Then the game would have been how he wanted. But either way, the game was perfectly playable. It's just that people WANTED it more one way, and that way was more popular.

Now we might think that because so many people complain about the backstab (reminds me of all the complaining about the Force Powers and stuff in JK1, most of which got ported to JK2 all the same!) that it must be something that's universally hated and so should be changed.

But let's think about this... so many people complaining must indicate that the move has very widespread usage. Perhaps its the majority of JK2 players that are using the backstab, moreso than those complaining about it and demanding it be removed?

The thing is, what are you going to do besides remove it entirely? Make it so that the move can only be used once per minute? You can't introduce a good weapon or power and then expect people not to use it, or only use it once in a blue moon for the sake of coolness. Like anything, it's not unbeatable or perfect.
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Old 07-08-2002, 06:07 AM   #34
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quiet sith, that first thing about drivin your car backwards is just plain ignorant. I was complaning about the whiners..lol. But one thing i think that raven should adress is when you finish backstabing and pull the saber back around, it is still doing ALL the damage and can still kill you. They should fix that...you know what im talkin about right?


like woah
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Old 07-08-2002, 06:41 AM   #35
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Well, maybe you should cull through my posts.

Though you may disagree with what I have to say - I do not harass or flame people for an opinion, unless they outright flaming others - and I never call them stupid.

Sheesh - let's just make things up about other people, anyone will believe it and it gives fuel to the fire. Yah right.
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Old 07-08-2002, 06:44 AM   #36
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And before you start going off on me and thinking I'm the cause of 1.03 .. think again...

I am NewBJedi and I created this thread:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...threadid=49099

Notice my response to:

"I can't beat people who are in heavy stance. "

I was fully against the 1.03 patch in the first place.

And yes, I did become bitter - 1.03 was released and Raven and LA did not listen to my most important advice:

Don't change the gameplay!

Now we have this backstab/sweep move that is many times worse than Heavy stance DFA could have possibly been.

As for one thread about people who disliked DFA (good news for them) - that's all it was.

I don't have a problem with someone who has opposing viewpoints getting the benefit. That's what life is all about.

P.S. The 1.04 patch/mod does not 'remove the move' it merely makes it more like a normal non-one-hit-kill move - based on a person with 100 health.

A person 100 health (with the mod/patch) would be killed by a backstab/sweep/etc if the backstabber did it 3 times instead of once. Let's get the facts straight here.

You are very welcome to test this out on my server.

I think you'll find nothing is really 'nerfed' just re-balanced.

Give it a shot - it can't hurt.

The whole reason I use the 1.04 mod/patch and the the following settings:

seta g_saberghoul2collision 0
seta g_sabertracesaberfirst 0
seta g_forceregentime 100

Is because it feels much more 1.02 that way (balanced).

Heavy DFA and Yellow Finisher are basically the only one hit kills, and as they were in 1.02 - very very avoidable.

Last edited by QuietSith; 07-08-2002 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 07-08-2002, 07:10 AM   #37
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I have no problem with losing a legit fight. I just respawn and jump back in. But when EVERY SINGLE FIGHT consists of pull, turn, backstab.. it kinda sucks the fun out. Usually I play dark side, but lately I've had to use the ligh sight simply for absorb so that stupid, cheap trick doesn't work. Just played a game a few minutes ago, the same people came in first and second because that's ALL they did.
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Old 07-08-2002, 07:12 AM   #38
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Re: Force Long Post part 2

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
I've read posts where people have pointed out that even the so-called 1.04 changes don't fix everything. My feeling is that they'd still complain even after that...
Of course, but it would help a bunch of us who think that's the only major serious problem.

If they just makes the changes in the 1.04 mod/patch. I would never have a criticism again - I'm quite happy about it.

I got so sick of all the B.S. I'm renting my own server and running it the way I think it should be - the server is often full so someone else must be agreeing.

My goal for the server - 1.02 'balance' feel. I think I've come very close.

Check this out:

http://www.codesilver.com/forums/sho...s=&threadid=23

Quote:
Maybe saying that I feel their arguments are "fatally flawed" is more charitable?
I think so. People do look up to you as an authority figure - it's going to be that way whether you like it or not. It's important to choose words carefully. A lot of young kids can get hurt - developing ego's and personality. I hate to say it, but it's important to be somewhat P.C., if you are leader, which you are.

Just my opinion of course - I'm not trying to tell you what to do, and I don't mean to make it sound that way. If I'm not assertive about an opinion, there's almost no point in giving one.

Quote:
That's a start. Like I said, play what you want, if that's closer to what you like, then use it.

The way I see it, the arguments against the Backstab (and the so-called "assfighting" it can lead to) are doing so for aesthetic reasons. I remember when the JK2 vids came out everyone was talking about how AWESOME the backstab looked. Since the game came out, people have done nothing but complain. I guess Raven misjudged those fans, huh? [/B]
I wouldn't blame Raven - it's pretty clear (to me) they want to fix the game, even host forums on their own site - check out their forum for General Chit Chat - they want to, LA won't let them.

LucasArts just needs to get with it and give those guys permission to keep working on it.

Quake 3's been through how many (beta) patches?

Tribes 2 wouldn't be needing this Garage Game full patch if Dynamix was still around - Sierra axed Dynamix.

A lot of it has to do with the decisions by the top people and they should be more responsible.

What needs to be done, and I've said this way too many times - public beta testing of patches:

That will fix so many issues - it gains community involvements, they are beta so it's voluntary, and it allows a wider range of people to participate and test it out.

It's worked great for Quake 3 and is doing great for Tribes 2 - public beta testing.
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Old 07-08-2002, 07:17 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Altephor
I have no problem with losing a legit fight. I just respawn and jump back in. But when EVERY SINGLE FIGHT consists of pull, turn, backstab.. it kinda sucks the fun out. Usually I play dark side, but lately I've had to use the ligh sight simply for absorb so that stupid, cheap trick doesn't work. Just played a game a few minutes ago, the same people came in first and second because that's ALL they did.
Can you try out my server?

I want to see if you get the same problem or not.

I am not trying to get more people to play on my server.

I AM trying to expose more people to possibilities of fixes.

Keep in mind my server is not using anything which isn't available directly from Raven.

Slight changes to the way the server runs, but otherwise just a simple mod that is only using Raven compiled source code - no intervention by any user made stuff - everything on the server is Raven code.

Server name:

Rage and Honor - AC - (1.04) - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rageandhonor/

IP:

65.113.116.20:28072

My server is set with:

Minimal blocking (available cvars in the game)
1.04 unofficial patch mod (purely Raven code)
Forceregen set to half as long - (available cvar in the game)

Let me know if there is any differerence or if there is none at all.

Thank you.

P.S. If you can't get on, please go ahead and redial (I suggest ASE). The server is super busy lately and I believe it's due to those settings.
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Old 07-08-2002, 07:22 AM   #40
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Next time I wanna play some JO I'll check it out..

But if you have 1.04, or whatever it is.. that would pretty much lock me from most other games..

Is there a way to toggle what version you're using? So I could use 1.04 on your server but go back if I wanted to say, play with a RL friend?
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