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View Poll Results: What Role Should Jedi Play?
Combat 2 20.00%
Support 2 20.00%
Commando 4 40.00%
All Rounder's 2 20.00%
I Don't care what role they should have I just want them super unblanaced and god like 0 0%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Jedi : What role should they play in the new RTS
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Old 12-14-2004, 11:55 PM   #1
DK_Viceroy
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Jedi : What role should they play in the new RTS

Well since we haven't really addressed what role we think Jedi should have in the new RTS how about we discuss it now.

I think Jedi should be more orientated to Support Roles and Commando duty.

The reason why I say Support is because the Jedi in the Clone wars lead the armies so they come up with the tactics so while they can fight they specialise more in commaning. Commandoes really don't require an explanation why because it's obvious.


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Old 12-15-2004, 12:56 AM   #2
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The way I see it, Jedi should simply be combat units. I havent voted though, because i dont think they fall into any one category.

Certainly, they should be very powerful units, though vulnerable to mass-fire tactics. As for command and whatnot, that should be left to the officers and Jedi Heroes like Obi-Wan.


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Old 12-15-2004, 04:58 AM   #3
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I think they're fine the way they are in GB. They're good against troops and fine against mechs. Their force powers are useful. And they get owned by Bounty Hunters, and mass troopers.
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Old 12-15-2004, 12:53 PM   #4
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They should be support units. I can see them playing that role. They shouldn't be godlike, nor should they be just a combat unit. It would kind of boring to see them just like that.


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Old 12-15-2004, 04:16 PM   #5
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Gb Jedis were horrible and resembled nothing of a real Jedi. BH need to outnumber Jedi for them to own them. Jedi converting buildings and air.......

A jedi is well rounded, at the Battle for Geonosis they were the role of commanders. They could also take the roles of support and combat. Wiping out small groups of infantry and taking down the occasional Mech. Also it depends on the Jedi, Obi-Wan would be more combat whilst Yoda would be support or Mace more commander.


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Old 12-15-2004, 06:09 PM   #6
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Yeah, the thing i detested most in GBG was converting. Then again, i hate converting in all games i have played where it is part of the game. Hopefully, it wont be in the new game.


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Old 12-15-2004, 09:45 PM   #7
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The whole mindtrick thing is only really sed by Jedi in controlled states or for commando type missions, not full scale battles.


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Old 12-15-2004, 10:12 PM   #8
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I like the idea of an army benefitting from having Jedi in maybe the republic could get a bonus when they have jedi accompnying their clone troopers it certainly would add to realism.


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Old 12-16-2004, 12:52 AM   #9
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Why just Republic? I think a Jedi with any army would give a leadership bonus and boost morale of the troops.


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Old 12-16-2004, 04:57 AM   #10
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It was just an example I like the idea of giving bonuses to having some units in your army it would encourage diverse armies.


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Old 12-16-2004, 05:03 PM   #11
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But then that is why i said they should only be combat.

That way, you have the Republic with their fighting Jedi Knights, but the other factions also get Jedi Generals such as
Empire - Darth Vader
Rebels - Luke Skywalker
Confederacy - Count Dooku

So by having both combat Jedi and Hero Jedi, you acomplish both things.


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Old 12-17-2004, 08:13 PM   #12
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Should Jedi be built or gained through battle?

I would not mind a system where you gain points and spend them on things like heroes or Jedi or even abilities each faction receives.....


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Old 12-18-2004, 01:15 AM   #13
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I would prefer to see them built. The problem with a points system is of course how to do it, but also it adds another level of micromanagement which just isnt good. A points system is great for things like units going from green --> veteran --> elite and the like, but not for getting new units.


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Old 12-18-2004, 01:24 AM   #14
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I think that gaining points to get any new unit is bad really that's why I'm not too much a fan of BFME's veteran buildings giving you more units I'd rather see it in a Star Wars RTS if it was put in as allowing more than one unit to be built at once or make units cheaper or fast to build.

I think veterancy should be in and in the case of jedi it should be vital so Jedi get promoted from Padawan to Knight and Knight to master and Master to General.


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Old 12-18-2004, 01:35 PM   #15
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It is basically the same as AoM they need god favor to purchase myth units. A faction like Empire or Confed would not even have Jedi because of the whole only 2 rule. Rebels cannot really have them either.


Veteran buildings was just a way to stop people from getting uber units right off the bat its there answer to tech levels. It also gives them abilities like a archer built from a level 3 veterency building is better than one made at veterency 1.


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Old 12-18-2004, 02:32 PM   #16
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Yes remember the Vikings from AoM. They had to fight in order to gain God Favor and to build myth units.

This system goes both ways. Either people end up throwing units into the meat grinder in order to build the stronger units or they start playing it like it was meant to be played. Remember however that in BFME, it is the number of units built in x building that gives you the ability to gain stronger units. It is a new concept that requires more in-dept playing to understand. I do not see much of a problem with it as of now. Personnally, I like seeing less powerful units fighting each other. It is an interesting thing to see.
But that's just me.


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Old 12-18-2004, 07:35 PM   #17
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Well, the thing with Jedi is that they need to be really powerful, mainly because they are really powerful. With that in mind, they should be very expensive and take a while to construct, so that you main battle units are things like Clone Troopers.

In terms of not being able to get the most powerful units as soon as you start, that is why my template had the 'military research' section, which you had to use in order to access better units. Then you have systems like C&C where each building and unit has prerequisites and a required tech level.


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Old 12-18-2004, 10:28 PM   #18
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I'd rather building veterency or tech levels rather than a military research thing.

With Jedi its basically the best defense is offence because Jedi don't wear armor there lightsaber and force powers become they lines of defense and a few blasts that get through can be deadly. I think a Jedi should be strong but taking out 50 troopers with one attack is not what I want.


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Old 12-19-2004, 12:50 AM   #19
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Unless perhaps it was Yoda or a sith using force lightning.

I think we need to have a unique way of getting the more powerful units instead of ripping ideas off from other RTS's mainly what someone would have us do with RoN.


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Old 12-19-2004, 02:09 AM   #20
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Even with Yoda or a Sith using force lightning killing that many troops at one time is just overpowering and gives them god like powers which is not what a Jedi is.

The time idea is not that good it rewards people for doing nothing in battle and they just sit there until more powerful units come along. The scientist idea seems very Un-star-warsy and well not that well thought out. Its basically the time idea but instead you need a few units in a building before you start receiving new stuff.


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Old 12-19-2004, 04:05 AM   #21
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With Jedi, i think they really should be god-like up to a certain point. Against infantry they should do really well, but their powers and the opposition to them should be inversely proportional. By this, i mean that against, for example, two droids, the Jedi should be able to reflect the blaster bolts back to the source. Up to about 4 droids, they would reflect, but not back to the source. At around 6, the Jedi would start getting hurt and pretty quickly get killed. In addition, Jedi should suck against heavy armour and aircraft.

Viceroy-
Quote:
Unless perhaps it was Yoda or a sith using force lightning
Uh...Yoda doesnt use Force Lightning. In AotC he was just reflecting Dooku's at him.

Quote:
I think we need to have a unique way of getting the more powerful units instead of ripping ideas off from other RTS's mainly what someone would have us do with RoN. Maybe it could be a time release where the more powerful units are granted over time or * you build scientists and put them in a buiilding and eventually gain access to each
LOL, love it Viceroy. After where i put the asterix, that system is exactly how the university works in RoN - stop ripping off that game Viceroy


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Old 12-19-2004, 06:11 AM   #22
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I never said Yoda was the one using the force lightnining I said yoda OR A sith using force lightning.

So that's the way it is windu we actually have to guess what the RoN System is no wonder I didn't like the idea much when I came up with it.

Windu your hardly one to talk about ripping things off games I think everyone remebers how your template was at one point when you'd literally Frankensteined several games from the C & C series and a few others and simple renamed and tweaked them ever so slightly.


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Old 12-19-2004, 06:19 AM   #23
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Uh you gained knowledge in universities in RoN. Knowledge is a ressource, not a new more powerful unit...one can say it can be used to have more powerful units but Viceroy's idea is not a rip-off. Why? Never did he claim the scientists got knowledge, he only said they would eventually get new units. You assumed that it would through research yet nothing says so.

Froz assumption was more right their yours Windu. After a while, they would gain access to new units, no researching whatsoever.


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Old 12-19-2004, 06:42 AM   #24
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When I'd thought up of the idea I'd thought of the scientists being put in a building that has a transmitter on it so it would require power and the sceintists would do reseacrh and share their discoveries weith the galactic sceintific community and the GSC would do likewise eventually allowing your sceintists to piece together designs for you.

Windu seems a little eager to pounce on everyone who makes a valid point against his RONified Version of Star Wars


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Old 12-19-2004, 05:27 PM   #25
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Either way I still don't like it.


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Old 12-19-2004, 05:33 PM   #26
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luke - now your hipocracy is revealed. So Viceroy using a system that is exactly like RoN in that you build a structure and then garrison it with scientists/scholors to gain some sort of resource is not a rip-off, and yet my research idea where there are 3 fields instead of 5, and my research done where you 'invest' a percentage of incoming credits and cannot chose each individual technology while RoN's research is done the more tradition way where you can choose each technology - that IS a rip-off to you.

You said in a previous thread you wondered if i would listen to sensible ideas or the like. I tell you now that i will listen to what you say when you are actually willing to listen to ME and cut your hipocracy.


Viceroy - the point still stands, you said that Yoda can use force lighting - he cant, you are wrong. Just admit it.

In regards to my template, would you care to elaborate on which games my template allegedly ripped-off and which particular features are involved? I should also point out that if you had actually read my template you would have easily seen that it is not a "RoNified version of Star Wars", but i suppose you are too small-minded for that.

You only disagree, Viceroy, to things you dont understand or are not smart enough to grasp, and these things to you are 'unStarWarsy'. Perhaps you should take the time to investigate and understand the subject matter before you comment on it.


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Old 12-19-2004, 06:08 PM   #27
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Very well. I might be biased trying to disagree just to disagree. Very well, I back off and concede the point.

Learn from this Windu.

EDIT: However, I still consider your template a rip-off of many elements of other RTS. I still stand by my arguments that you're trying to create a Civ building game while claiming not making a civ building game.


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Old 12-20-2004, 12:56 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
luke - now your hipocracy is revealed.
Yes, the horses are in charge now. Obey them!
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Old 12-20-2004, 06:30 PM   #29
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Back on Topic

In the next RTS I have fears about how they will use Yoda in the game. BFME really did not project the Gandalf imagine how he was in the films or book they made him an all powerful can dominate entire armies with his powers. Which is not what he was in the films he was passive and hardly used his powers in battle.

I don't want to see an all powerful Yoda that can take down 100 stormtroopers with his saber or force push. He is an advisor not a warrior. He hardly even used his saber. Lets hope they capture him like he was in the films.


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Old 12-20-2004, 07:45 PM   #30
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FroZ - i agree, Yoda really should be more of a General than a soldier. That is, of course, why i suggested having Jedi Heroes who act as Generals and buildable Jedi who act as fighters.


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Old 12-21-2004, 04:06 AM   #31
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But then, why not have Jedi Heroes only? We could use models of Jedi we know instead of a generic one.

I think we'll all agree that the Republic should not be allowed to spam Jedi, merely have more then the others(who are restricted to 1 or 2 Jedi heroes).

We would be restricted by a certain number(12 maybe?) and they would cost a fair amount of ressources depending on their relative strength but of course, they can always gain experience through battle.
The first Jedi available could be Coleman Trebor and the last one Yoda. Maybe you should have to build them in order, the weaker Jedi before you can build a stronger one.


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Old 12-21-2004, 11:37 AM   #32
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There's a jedi called Coleman Trebor???
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Old 12-21-2004, 11:42 AM   #33
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http://www.starwars.com/databank/cha...bor/index.html


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Old 12-21-2004, 04:19 PM   #34
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I think twelve heroes is a bit much for one side. Even then people would only choose the strongest of the bunch and the other are just wasted. I don't think the weakest to strongest will solve anything because a side like Empire would get Vader alot sooner then the Republic would get there strongest Yoda/Mace.


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Old 12-21-2004, 05:35 PM   #35
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If balanced right it will be ok.

Look at Coleman Trebor. Almost useless, perhaps crappiest hero of them all.

There would be a restriction so that when people get Vader, the Republic will be able to get Mace Windu.

Perhaps the Republic would have weaker but more numerous heroes while the Empire has stronger heroes that require more time to be built and more ressources required.


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Old 12-22-2004, 12:05 AM   #36
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I don't see the problem with Coleman Trebor he was on the council so he must not be to bad. Republic should not have weak heroes they should have some of the strongest Mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan are not weak by any means.


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Old 12-22-2004, 01:19 AM   #37
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But then why would we limit the most interesting units to just Heroes? AotC showed that they can and have been used as a large force, and a lot of them got killed. Obviously, they are one of the weapons available to the Republic, and they should be buildable for the Republic.


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Old 12-22-2004, 05:00 AM   #38
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I'm in with Windu on this one.

Just make sure they're not overpowered, and cost a lot so that the reps can't have hundreds of them at the same time, and all should be fine.


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Old 12-22-2004, 07:42 AM   #39
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Actually, we don't see them in use as a large force.

Being the purist you are, we only see 200 of them in the arena + who knows how many actually on the Battlefield which wouldn't be that much since their ranks there were formed from the few survivors from the arena and a few who joined.

Now, considering there are 10 000 Jedi at the beginning of the clone wars, we can obviously do some simple math. The Clone Troopers were probably produced to millions of units. Now, if the Jedi are only 10 000, they might acount for less then 1% or the totality of the Republic forces. Therefore, they could not be used "en masse".

I see no problem restricting them to just heroes as balancing can be done in a better way.


Froz-Getting owned by a guy with blasters is pretty insulting, even if it's Jango Fett
Oh and by the time the Republic was turning into the Empire, the Jedi became pretty weak compared to the others.
Look at it this way, Anakin becomes Vader, Vader and Palpatine beats all of the Jedi, therefore Vader and Palpatine heroes> Republican Jedi heroes.


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Old 12-22-2004, 12:06 PM   #40
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If I was a Jedi I would rather go down in history as the Jedi that got taken out by Jango then the Jedi that was killed by a weak ass Battle Droid which most of them suffered.

Jedi were really spread thin across the galaxy once the Battle of Geonosis was over most of them were given Campaigns on other planets to continue the onslaught of the Separatists. I did not say Empire heroes would be weak I said Republic would have some of the strongest. Vader/Palp, Yoda/Mace, Greivous/Dooku, Luke would be the strongest for each side (assuming there is only 4 factions).


Age of Empires 3
vs
Empire at War
vs
Rise of Legends
vs
Battle for Middle-Earth 2

Let the battle begin.....




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