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Old 07-11-2002, 07:07 PM   #81
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too bad the midair lunge is gone. it was a viable move if you just dropped like a rock regardless of lunging or not. for everything else, though i am extremely excited. no more ghetto spinners that hit you like 5 times with the backsweep. i'm also very glad that the damage of that move was slightly nerfed, but i'm curious if they will ever raise the damage of lightsabres themselves. i dont think it's very fair when a full secondary shot from the flechette will do more damage than a sabre strike. Also have the medium special and DFA been tweaked or are they still one hit kills? they really need to remain how they are, because the amount of exposure to counters is extremely high when executing those 2 moves; therefore, they should still be 1 hit kills. anyways that's just my opinion


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Old 07-11-2002, 07:12 PM   #82
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Ohh my prayers have been answered!!!
Im so glad that maybe we will finnally see true skill in the servers, its something that ive been waiting for since the games release!!!
I myself have been training so hard in honorable combat that im sure that people will see me for what i have earned.
Backstab was the only move that killed me more or less (9 out of 10 i would counter it) and its seems that me NOT learning to do it like the rest has paid off as my saber skills will be FAR above the EX-assfighters skill level.


p.s.
/me starts praying for 100 million under my pillow tomorow morning...


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Old 07-11-2002, 07:30 PM   #83
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Regarding the nerf of the air-lunge:

I have no problem in seeing the average air-lunge removed, soooo many "skilled" players relied on that bug to hit people, no fun.

However, there was no harm in the floating bug. It was a bug though, and I think the devs were in their good right to remove that bug. But it didn't hurt anyone, quite the contrary actually.
But, it was quite irritating to see your enemy fall of the edge and then recieve no damage at all, while you fall off and got splattered.

I just fear that the kick will be the new trick to getting around the blocking: 20 damage and no way to avoid it besides dodging like hell.
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Old 07-11-2002, 07:40 PM   #84
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Even though it was a bug, it was the only way to stop yourself from dying from a great height! I think it should at least be replaced with something like: force push being able to slow your decent, after all, were supposed to be Jedi ffs.


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Old 07-11-2002, 07:49 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by lexx
Even though it was a bug, it was the only way to stop yourself from dying from a great height! I think it should at least be replaced with something like: force push being able to slow your decent, after all, were supposed to be Jedi ffs.
If you roll right after you land, you usually only take about 2/3 to a 1/4 of the fall damage, randomly. This, IMO, is what they intended for you to do to "stick" landings.

For example, leap off the top of FFA ns streets at full health without rolling. The result? About 4 health. Then try it with a roll just as you land, and you health bar should only drop to about 60-40 from full. Neat, eh?

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Old 07-11-2002, 08:01 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mercen4ry


If you roll right after you land, you usually only take about 2/3 to a 1/4 of the fall damage, randomly. This, IMO, is what they intended for you to do to "stick" landings.

For example, leap off the top of FFA ns streets at full health without rolling. The result? About 4 health. Then try it with a roll just as you land, and you health bar should only drop to about 60-40 from full. Neat, eh?
True enough but this requires good timing, miss by a little and SPLAT!


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Old 07-11-2002, 08:05 PM   #87
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Dunno, I rarely miss the timing on this, but maybe it's just me?

Yeah, it does require good timing... but it is a solution, and at the very least I have had no trouble with it. That force push solution is something I would love to see as well, but knowing the current Quake 3 physics engine, people would probably find some way to abuse it.

Merc out.

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Old 07-11-2002, 08:19 PM   #88
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I don't know if you can do this already lexx, but here goes anyway to those that don't know....

To roll when you hit the ground:

Hold down crouch when you're in the air and hold down the directional key you wish to roll in. For example, I hold down crouch and forward and turn my mouse in the direction i wish to roll in (all in the air), then when I hit the ground, I'll roll instantly.
Someone please correct if this is wrong.
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Old 07-11-2002, 08:52 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by lexx


True enough but this requires good timing, miss by a little and SPLAT!
Isn't the entire game about timing moves?
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Old 07-11-2002, 08:58 PM   #90
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Aye cjais, that's why I'm a tad confuzèd where timing is concerned. And thanks for clearing that up; I've been playing one too many games of Warcraft 3, so I tend to blank out from time to time.

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Old 07-11-2002, 10:24 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by cjais

I just fear that the kick will be the new trick to getting around the blocking: 20 damage and no way to avoid it besides dodging like hell.
Exactly what i think
With the insane blocking rate it will happen very soon
And of course if raven patch another time this game they ll just say : "hey this move is is spammed ....let s nerf it"
While the true problem is saber blocking system
It should be like for blocking bolts and saber throw ( a saber midair is better than handled ......it s a known fact ) : Block 100 % ( for defence 3 of course ) forward arc if u don t attack and zero if u do or are attacked from flanks or rear ......this ll teach ppl how to actually have REALISTIC saber fights and to block
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Old 07-11-2002, 10:39 PM   #92
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Ok I have been modding JK2 since it came out and all changes were aimed balancing the swordplay. The mod was not publicized, but it was up most of the time on our SKX servers.

Right now it seems that 1.04 is virtually the same as 1.03a. I must note that 1.03a sucked quite a lot in some points.

Specifically:
Back roll %30 percent shorter.
You run backward slower.
You slow down even more if you are doing a move in heavier stances (a bit for yellow and a lot for red).
Tracing sucked a lot due to their lag-reducing optimization, great number of hits didnt score right.
Yellow has significantly shorter range.

There's more but i cant remember right now. It was pretty sad even considering fixed backstab and faster yellow spins and people didnt want to play that until problems were dealt with. All of this was fixed manually by me in my code, however i am afraid that some (if not all) of these issues can make their way to 1.04.

Another question for all:
When the source for 1.04 is gonna be relesed so the "minor adjustment" can be done?
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Old 07-11-2002, 10:51 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by {SKX}AG
Another question for all:
When the source for 1.04 is gonna be relesed so the "minor adjustment" can be done?
U mean total rework of saber system ??
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Old 07-11-2002, 11:02 PM   #94
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Hehe... like I said earlier this might just be the "Black belt patch" for "Karate Knight 2 - Dojo Outcast: the kicking game"..... But hell if I want that.

AG - if the patch does as you say, then the devs haven't mentioned a lot things. Those are quite some changes to sabercombat you've got there.

Overall, I think that the sabers could do with some more damage.
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Old 07-11-2002, 11:08 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by cjais
Hehe... like I said earlier this might just be the "Black belt patch" for "Karate Knight 2 - Dojo Outcast: the kicking game"..... But hell if I want that.
Lol excellent

It would also be the "flying cutter" patch cause of the throw+pull combo ( if u didn t figure this before pull break the guard when the anim for opponent defending it plays ....now figure the combo )

In fact if raven doesn t really tweak saber system, we will never actually saber fight with slashes

Bah i guess they ll just get rid of kick and throw in next patch
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Old 07-11-2002, 11:13 PM   #96
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I agree with cjais.
I played an ff dueling game of jk2++ in beta 3, and there was this one kick spammer. He was destroying everyone with his kick script, knocking them over and red slashing them. If anyone tried to drain, he would use absorb. If he got hit, he would heal. Anyway, I beat him, but it was really, really, hard. Now, if the damage of sabers had been higher, I would've killed him much more easily, because if he had have missed me once with his kick script, he'd be dead.

I'm not bitching about having a challenge, but it was too easy for someone to use kick extensively and beat everyone.

Higher saber damage is the answer.
In the latest build of jk2++ (that isn't public d/l yet) we increased it. Saberists can now compete against gunners (if you're good enough) due to high damage.

High damage for all!
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Old 07-11-2002, 11:20 PM   #97
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I also wish that saber damage was alot higher.

Especially when someone is spamming a backstab in the middle of a group of people, even a direct downward hack from the red stance doesn't kill him and allows him to heal and run away.

It makes me very angry.
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Old 07-11-2002, 11:28 PM   #98
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I ve seen this so-said ( i was one to say it ...i admit ) script kiddie

But honestly after seeing him do it, i tried to make my way kicking others during the rest of the game
And honestly i can tell u there is no great skill to kick efficiently
So of course if it s riskless to close in on an opponent ( wich it is actually with the saber block system ) then kick will indeed rule

Also changing the damage will do nothing cause the insane guard is still there

What s need to be done ( i will repeat myself another time ) along with upping saber dmg is tweak the blocking so that sabers are blocked the same way as blaster bolts and THROW ( explain me why this saber attack is blocked like a bolt ) .........no rear guard, no flank guard, only reliable front guard and that s if u don t slash

This way kickers could dodged sideways and u could slash at their flanks to counter them ( man this reminds me kendo lessons )

But Alas, this will not happen cause Raven think everyone loves the crappy 1.03 blocking system with lots of blocks from all angles and lots of parries ..........mark my words : prepare to see a kick fest soon
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Old 07-11-2002, 11:39 PM   #99
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new maps too?

this may be wishful thinking and i dunno if anyone else has mentioned it yet but do you think they'll add any more maps, to make it an incentive to get the patch?

fingers crossed

Jah
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Old 07-11-2002, 11:46 PM   #100
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Now well, I was the one starting this kickwar speculation, but I still believe it is possible to have a good saberfight, even in 1.03 it was possible to have loads of fun regardless of all the newbies running the backstab show.

Yes, I tend to think that kicks will be more prominent in 1.04 due to BS-nerfing, but that is not to say that there won't be any "proper" players left. I, for one, doesn't kick spam, and damn well won't follow this infantile tyranny of players choosing only the absolutely most powerful moves in the game and then RELY on them like there's no tomorrow. That means I won't begin to kickspam in 1.04 either, just because it might be the better move.

Look at what happened to those relying on backstabs: They will get nerfed in 1.04 and that's their own damn fault. I knew that this backstab party wasn't going to last and neither is this uncoming(?) kickfest. Mods, or simple servercommands, will come that reduces kicks to 1 point of damage like some mods already have done.

I know this sounds aloof and quite condemning of everyone except me own, holy self - but it isn't meant that way, just play nice in the upcoming 1.04.
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Old 07-11-2002, 11:49 PM   #101
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Re: new maps too?

Quote:
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
this may be wishful thinking and i dunno if anyone else has mentioned it yet but do you think they'll add any more maps, to make it an incentive to get the patch?

fingers crossed

Jah
I don't think they will jah, but one can always hope.
Besides, I can't imagine anyone wanting to decide between playing 3 different versions of a game. I suspect that all 1.03'ers will upgrade and maybe even some old-school 1.02'ers. That still leaves a solid core of determined 1.02'ers who will still play the old game.
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Old 07-11-2002, 11:58 PM   #102
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Well that is the problem cause Raven is unwilling to go back with their "so-good" SP blocking system

One consequence was the Backstab : it s now nerfed
One Other ( less known ....but it will be used a lot now Backstab is dead ) is Throw + pull ......will it get nerfed ??
And now the Kick will be another ....will it get nerfed too ??

So what i foresee is that even if those 2 moves left to go around the uber-stupid guard requires skill ( they do .....much more than pull + backstab ), they will get nerfed one day or another either by some modders or by Raven
So instead of facing the true cause of these moves being exploited ppl will just choose to ignore the cause as well as the consequences ( wich will be nerfed ) ???
Well if so then i can foresee a brief life for the already dying JK2, cause ppl will not enjoy for long fighting totally random saber battles nor using only guns ( there is better games wich have better ones )

So to conclude this : if saber play dies then this game is dead too .......hope ppl and raven will wake up soon to see that saber isn t well alive
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Old 07-12-2002, 12:00 AM   #103
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We've been running the MOD of the 1.04 patch for a while. Glad to see the official version released.


I agree witht he above though, it makes Kicking the *unblockable move*. I have a feeling that you can pretty much take the posts from 1.03 about assfighters, and replace that word with kick-whores, and just repost them, as this is what the next problem will be.

Funny thing is, one only needs to think logically about kicking to see the correction:

If I run up to you and kick you with your saber up....wouldnt you block it? I know this is the same issue with the assfighting...someone runs up and backstabs me while Im facing them with saber up and I cant block it....BUT MY GOD, you can block BULLETS....

At the very LEAST, kicking someone with thier saber up should incur ATLEAST 50% DAMAGE based on what stance they are in. Say, (guessing) heavy saber strike damage is 50 (I havent got a clue really). So, I run up and kick you and you are in heavy stance, not swinging or moving, saber out and ready, facing directly at you....you should take 25 damage. After all, your basically kicking my LIGHT SABER...you SHOULD take damage.


Otherwise, its great.


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Old 07-12-2002, 12:09 AM   #104
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Re: Re: new maps too?

Quote:
Originally posted by cjais
I suspect that all 1.03'ers will upgrade and maybe even some old-school 1.02'ers. That still leaves a solid core of determined 1.02'ers who will still play the old game.
One can only hope. I'm the poster child for 1.02, but it's getting mighty thin on our servers. I'm going to give this a try, but if it has all the epeleptic-seisure-enducing blocking, I've got to get the hell away from this game.

Has it been confirmed that a client side AND server side version of 1.04 will be released today? Many of the changes that really ruined the game after 1.02 were client side changes that no server-side mod in the world would have corrected.

Any clue?


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Old 07-12-2002, 12:49 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheRock

Funny thing is, one only needs to think logically about kicking to see the correction:

If I run up to you and kick you with your saber up....wouldnt you block it? I know this is the same issue with the assfighting...someone runs up and backstabs me while Im facing them with saber up and I cant block it....BUT MY GOD, you can block BULLETS....

At the very LEAST, kicking someone with thier saber up should incur ATLEAST 50% DAMAGE based on what stance they are in. Say, (guessing) heavy saber strike damage is 50 (I havent got a clue really). So, I run up and kick you and you are in heavy stance, not swinging or moving, saber out and ready, facing directly at you....you should take 25 damage. After all, your basically kicking my LIGHT SABER...you SHOULD take damage.


Otherwise, its great.
I totally agree with this. You should have to think twice before sticking your leg out in front of a Jedi's ready lightsaber. Kicks should only be effective in the right circumstances, like when you parry a blow or win a saber-lock. Of course, you should be able to do them any time you want, but you'll have to accept the risk.

This could also be an advantage if you're fighting a gun user, since there's no chance of chopping off your own leg.


- JPD -
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Old 07-12-2002, 01:00 AM   #106
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here goes

call me a newbie if you must, but i have never known jk2 on any patch other than 1.03, sooooooo i dont really know which i prefer, if any. i dont understand most of the talk of the blocking system because im unaware of what the former blocking system was like. but, i do play this game a hell of a lot, and i know what ur saying about kick being gay, and bs being whored to death, and even the throw+pull combo. if the new blocking system sucks so much u're left with two main options.


re-install jk2, and switch back to the 1.02 patch, and refuse to play in any other games, and hope that peer pressure will force everyone back to 1.02

OR

someone make an official petition, one stating what the gamers think the problem is with it, and have everyone on this forum sign it, and spam the lobby gettin others to sign it. it never hurts to try?

anyway those are just my thoughts, btw i would love it if sum1 explained the major diffences between 1.02 and .03
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Old 07-12-2002, 01:11 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by QuietSith
Am I the only person with overwhelmed excitement here?

NOPE!

I'm about to cream my pants, err... you know.
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Old 07-12-2002, 01:16 AM   #108
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Wahhh!!! I used to have fun molesting those L4m3rz trying to pull backstab.
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Old 07-12-2002, 01:25 AM   #109
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Kicking was much worse in 1.02 than it is in 1.03 / 1.04.
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Old 07-12-2002, 01:53 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally posted by QuietSith
Kicking was much worse in 1.02 than it is in 1.03 / 1.04.
It was the same except u had to tap only once on jump button
The problem is not here Quietsith
Try to look at the facts before responding blindly

The trouble is that in 1.02 there was risk to use Pull, Kick or whatever close attack cause basically u could get slashed ( i don t count the number of times i died while pulling a moron slashing wildly just at that moment )
Now with the utter Crappy invincible guard there is no risk to use such attacks, u could pull all u wanted in 1.03 never being hit while doing it, same for kick and i don t talk about the infamous rear guard after DFA

Now that pull is gone, there is kick left and imo it was a pretty bad move to get rid of pull and backstab considering the other things raven could have done
Instead of making those moves risky again ( by tweaking the guard ) they just crippled them so they are useless .......much like the way they did to Drain and Heal
The next time what will they render useless ?? This game already have not much moves .....don t get rid of all of them Raven
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Old 07-12-2002, 02:01 AM   #111
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If you keep nerfing everything that does damage, you won't have any moves left. Kick was not much worse in 1.02, not at all. In 1.02, getting close enough to kick meant you were going to get slashed, like Orangina said, it was all because of the blocking system.
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Old 07-12-2002, 02:07 AM   #112
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Since mods are being developed to 'resolve these issues' why is all this discussion taking place in a 'patch' thread which has nothing to do with 'fixing said issues'?

If such mods will fix 'said issues' .. what's left to discuss?
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Old 07-12-2002, 02:10 AM   #113
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My response was not unrespectful
I just said that before saying that something was worse ( or better ) than someting else, especially without arguments, you should consider all of the tweaks made to the game

Now if u can t bear that then don t talk to me ........i don t see why i should argue if you can t explain your point of view calmly

As for the patch, if we want those tweaks in it it s cause mods are not supposed to fix the basic gameplay ( i hate that excuse for devs to waste a game ) and cause a lot of competitive players want to do ladders .......and ladders use generally the official patch and not mods
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Old 07-12-2002, 02:12 AM   #114
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The patch is now on the lucasarts website. The link is below:

http://support.lucasarts.com/patches/jedioutcast2.htm
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Old 07-12-2002, 02:12 AM   #115
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""The back-flip off a wall/opponent was changed into a double-tap. This was mostly done because it was frustrating to try to get over a small lip and end up back-flipping off of it. In combat, you can still kick someone and knock them down with this move, but you have to do a double-tap. Also, it was noticed that the strong style was completely vulnerable to this move because of the long wind-up time of it's attacks. A somewhat skilled jump-kicker could always knock down a strong style user (often you could not see the kick coming). So the jump-kick was made to not *knock down* a strong user who is in the middle of a swing. It still does damage and you still flip off them. "

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...threadid=54081

1.03 kick changes.

It was worse in 1.02.
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Old 07-12-2002, 02:13 AM   #116
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My word this thread has struck a nerve eh ? If some of the people played as much as they bitched and whine, they wouldnt have to complain becuase they would have more skill !
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Old 07-12-2002, 02:14 AM   #117
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frawress victory

"Wipe them out. All of them."

Well well. I think I might actually give this one a try. I haven't played multiplayer for over a month now since the Rise of the Assfighters.© When I discovered that I was stooping to their tactics as it was the only way to get around that dang saber block, I darn near committed seppuku in shame. I went back to the divinely inspired version (v1.02), but there just weren't any servers running it in sufficient quantities, so I resorted to getting my saber jollies from playing single player and spawning in legions of reborn to whoop up on.

Perhaps Raven could take a cue from the old JK, where you were more effective with blocking if you had your crosshairs on the opponent's face. That would actually add some modicum of skill to the whole thing.

I see wondrous things about servers running with the saber blocking tuned down, but I never saw it advertised on the server lists, and it's a bit much to wade through all the details using Gamespy to see what the cvars are set to....

I guess we'll see how it goes.
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Old 07-12-2002, 02:15 AM   #118
QuietSith
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by NwO_2k_Mutt
My word this thread has struck a nerve eh ? If some of the people played as much as they bitched and whine, they wouldnt have to complain becuase they would have more skill !
That's probably the wisest thing I've read.

I'm personally done with this thread.

I got exactly what I wanted in a patch.

I'm happy.
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Old 07-12-2002, 02:21 AM   #119
Orangina_Rouge
 
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I know these changes quietsith

What i point out is that even if the move is harder to perform, it s still riskless to do now
Even with SD it s something to fear, i ve seen some kickers wich use it over and over once u re down with the first one, so with the normal blocking of 1.03 it s really riskless to perform a kick on someone else

But i waiting forward to say "i told ya so"
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Old 07-12-2002, 02:29 AM   #120
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Welp

I was a hardcore saberist in 1.02.
All I did was play on duel servers, and occasionally FFA and TDM. I was also a heavy stance whore. I didn't learn it from anyone else, I just learned to use it very well at the time of release.

I never had a problem with kick. If someone was coming in to kick, you could either slash them, or roll away. Not a big deal at all.
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