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Thread: Suggestions for future patches.
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Old 07-13-2002, 02:37 PM   #1
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Suggestions for future patches.

Well, I was reading through a few of the posts regarding the 1.4 patch. I was curious, since 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and now 1.4, everyone had a beef... usually the majority bitching about something they hated about the patch.

Well, if you were incharge of Raven Software's patching department for JKII. What would you change about multiplayer?

Personally, I think 1.4 was a step in the right direction. But somethings weren't done as good as they should have been. I always thought saber combat should be as intense as single player. Meaning combos and saber swings were the main bit of combat, while special moves were reserved for certain situations. Unlike multiplayer, where before 1.4 (still is to a degree) that special moves were the core of every attack, most good players would only swing a few times, other times trying to setup a special move to finish em off in a few hits. (A.k.a. DFA in the old days, backstab/sweep in the 1.3 era). I always thought that wasn't nearly as fun as a good saber fight with offense, defense, counters, parries. You know, something very cinamatic.. but not overly cinamatic that it looks cool but is boring as hell.

So here's my ideal way of balancing multiplayer (not taking lag into account, because I'm not an expert on this). Basically I think multiplayer should play alot like single player in the saber combat department. Having many more stances. Like some mods out there, where you have two blues, one with fast one handed attacks, fast two handed. Medium having more chaining capablity. Heavy having a limited one handed chain stance. And the normal heavy three max chain hit. Also I think there should be more evasive moves. Or evasive powers, like giving seeing more of an advanage so it's useful to use other than just for seeing people using jedi mind trick. Like say have level 3 seeing make it where you're 50% more likely to actually dodge an incoming saber blow or blaster fire. Kind of like a matrix move some of the reborns do in single player. Also, all special moves should have it where you cannot pivot at all while doing it, I know the only move that you can pivot now is the Overhead slice. Although with no pivot it'd lose it's usefulness, so I suggest making it like single player making it have longer range and actually going OVER the person's head if they're infront of you (instead of how it is now, someone infront of you, you go up and land ontop of their head)

Also, I think blue stance needs to be given more of an edge, since it's parried for it's lack of power by all stances usually. I think it should be given.. not a special move but more of like a chaining move that breaks through defense for a brief moment allowing a hit or two to get in. People would actually use light stance for something other than lunge. Light stance should be the defense breaking stance. While medium is the counter stance. Heavy being the offensive stance. Medium should have a bit longer reach and slight more chaining ability too, giving it the ability to counter many moves, since it's both slightly slower than light, but has longer reach and more damage. Heavy should be left alone I think, as it's pretty fine now.

Big issue I think needs to be changed with or without anything else is, saber collusion. How many people have seen their lightsaber go straight through the enemy, but not do any damage. Sometimes it's lag yes, but I've even done this on bots with zero ping. It's obviously a saber collusion bug. I think it's partly to do with the code of single player and multiplayer being different. This needs to be changed one day regardless of anything else.

Last thing two things I think need to be changed is, having kick's damage reduced, and increasing lightsaber damage slightly. As alot of people might have noticed, kick is being abused alot more lately since backstab is gone, not really for nothing more than extra "easy" damage. I think kick is fine as what it is intented to be (chain breaker, or unexpected attack to throw someone off) and turned into a damn kicking contest. I know Raven already reduced the front kick damage.. but not by much. I think if kick damage was reduced to 5 front and 8-10 sidekick, it'd be much more of a chain breaker than a damage dealer. And lastly, I think that would balance lightsabers with other weapons (particularly rocket launchers) is increasing lightsaber damage. Making it more up to speed with single player (no not single blow kills), but it should be (if at all possible) localized damage. Say if you hit someone in the head or torso, you'd do much more damage than say the foot or hand, or leg. Adding a slight damage bonus to the lightsaber might make it more balanced.

Anyway, those are my suggestions. I'm a single player fan, so that makes me bias.

Anyone else have any?
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Old 07-13-2002, 02:53 PM   #2
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Oh and another suggestion is adding another gameplay opinion. I wouldn't know what to call it, but it'd be like the Hunted in TFC (if anyone remembers this). Where's there's a limited amount of spaces for each team. Having one team the Republic (or Rebellion whatever timeframe you think in). With most of the team having no force powers or lightsabers, but being able to pick weapons to begin with, say max of three, pistol, primary weapon, secondary weapon. (and of course stun rod :b ) Then having the captain of the team sorta speak a Jedi master of the Light side of the force. While the other team would be something the same, expect the other side is the Empire, where they have the captain as a Sith Lord, with all powers of the Dark side.

The Jedis and Siths would be sort of the Prez of each team, each team having to protect their Sith lord or Jedi. Now, the match wouldn't end if the Jedi or Sith was killed, the team that got him would just get more points (kind of like a CTF flag capture). The max limit of the Jedi/Sith for each team would be three, depending on the number of people on that team. And nobody could be the Jedi/Sith continously for no longer than ten minutes. Giving everyone a chance to be each side.

Anyway, that'd be interesting I think.. be kind of a CTF meets Jedi master gameplay. Hell, might make a good mod, if nothing else. Hehe.
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Old 07-14-2002, 11:40 AM   #3
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Great post, totally agree.
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Old 07-14-2002, 01:46 PM   #4
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Post Yeah.

Well man, you definitely have the right idea.

I don't want you to take this in an offensive manner, I'm just attempting to make conversation here so bear with me :

I really can identify with some of the ideas you are talking about on your thread. I wish, probably as much as you do, that if only there were another player on the other computer that would think the way I do, you know?

Well (and this is just my perspective), the trouble with the inconsistencies of SP to MP battles is usually that of the non-linear thinking of a human being, as opposed to AI. In some aspects, making SP battles more like MP takes another living person just as interested in making the battle look cool, as seeing you dead , which is what I think raven had in mind when making the AI for SP. Unfortunately (and I am occasionally guilty of this as well), other people can be so enveloped in winning and either lose sight, or never had the relative aspect of the saber experience as you do. However, as you said, adding stuff is definitely a good step in the right direction. Giving people even more options as they had before may make it more interesting (but some people can also find it too difficult to memorize all of these controls and figure "the hell with it"!). I think I posted the following idea on another thread, but let me share it with you:

Everyone has problems in a game, but raven only patches some people's problems, boxing themselves in an ever closing "no-win scenario" (sorry to go trekkie on you there ). I think it's Raven's method of patching that almost seems to contribute to the escalating problem. First off, they release a game to establish a basis, a system that will inevitably have it's flaws. As time goes on, patches are release to add to the experience. Please note the word add in the previous sentence.

Add is something quite contrary to the patches thus far for Outcast. Instead they have been taking things out which were included in the original version of the game. No, no, no. Instead of pissing people off by removing things (yes, it will piss of SOMEBODY, which will come back and haunt the people that got their way the previous time when raven patches it again, fixing the other people's problems), ADD things. Build upon the basis they have established, including more moves, more stances, more counters and blocks and so on. Note to the raven reader: I know it's a lot of work but COME ON guys, you're getting paid, and I still think you really have something good going here.

I know what the skeptical ones are saying by now: "Yes, that's another way of looking at it but it will still have its problems." Well I say, "Yeah, but at the rate raven is going what have they got to lose?"

Anyhow, this is getting up there in length so I will stop here. I would like to hear your thoughts on it though man, since we appear to be on the same page. As I was writing this I think I may make a thread out of it too.

"I play 'Jedi Outcast' to have fun. I don't know.....maybe that's why they refer to it as a 'game' in the first place."

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Old 07-14-2002, 07:00 PM   #5
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You make some good points. Where to start...

Well first off, you say that the hard part of balancing single player and multiplayer is depending on the player. Some people are driven by victory, others by just having a good time. And yet some... just want to piss other people off. The majority of people, that I've noticed, just wanna have a good time. I mean, it IS a game, right?

I think the entire thing wrong with the multiplayer game, is the fact special moves do so much more damage than regular moves or combos, that people just loooove to use em. Therefore fights are .. boring and predicatable. Doesn't require as much skill or thought as it would if it were truely about saber combat, and not about DFA, backstab, lunge, over-the-head slice, ect. It'd be a much more interesting, and not to mention deep game. My suggestions, were "wet dreams" sorta speak of this game, not that I ever expect any of them to come true, but basically just thinking outloud. I do think, Raven seriouslly needs to consider changing the saber damage. I've been playing around with the g_saberdamage, command. At 1.5 or 2, it makes the gameplay very intense and balanced even with other weapons. Making the lightsaber not OVERLY powerful, but a Jedi's weapon, once again.

Anyway, my idea on making it so people wouldn't just use the same move over and over is simple. Make it where swings actually do decent damage as compared to finishing moves. Now think about it, DFA, over-the-head slice, and backstab in a way. Are FINSIHING MOVES. Meaning they should finish the opponent, not finish em before the fight even began. So I think the max damage of any of these moves should be 50. Now if saber damage was increased, the most powerful move would be the top down over the head attack in Heavy. This would need to be balanced back to do nomore damage than a finishing move. Basically, rework the moves in the damage department. So that no ONE move or swing will be able to be abused. Making it where everyone will need to re-think their approach and actually fight for once. Using defense AND offense together.

Of course, this is all theorical. I'm sure there would be problems even with this. But, correctable ones. As far as I could imagine, I wouldn't see any one move or swing to be able to be abused, even by a win driven player. It'd make every match interesting and make the game more balanced, even on servers with weapons. Making Jedi's and Sith's once again more dangerous to a merc.

As for Raven using only the subtract theory as opposed to adding in patches. Think of how even the most slight changes, adding or subtracting can change this game. I mean, just making it where you can't lunge in mid-air, pulling people down all the time, and most notably, pivot while backstab/sweeping. Look at how the game has changed now, it's like nothing it was. Good or bad, depends on the eye of the beholder. But, if Raven went on an adding frenzy, they'd catch hell to balancing. I think, the only way Raven could add anything, is VERY VERY progressively. Say if they add a new stance, move, or something along those lines. Add one every patch, see if it works. If not, refine it next patch. If it flies, add another additation next patch. I know adding something new to keep players interested isn't a practical thing to do in a game, where you don't PAY to play online. So expecting something like that, just would be greedy/arrogant.

But in summary, I would like to say, just making this game more like single player would make it the best verison of the game. Because, how many of you have played single player and didn't love the saber combat? How many of you didn't go "Holy ****" the first time, you stepped into the Jedi Academy and saw the Jedi Trainer training a young padawan. How many of you didn't almost **** your pants when you went head to head against three reborns and a shadowtrooper in the next to last map? Not many of you, I'm sure. It's not just that it looked cool, it's cuz it felt so right. And it was so well done.. you thought you really were a Jedi for a few milliseconds. So, it could be done in multiplayer to make it that badass, I'm sure of it. It just would take a little bit of effort, and knowledge of what you want the end result to be.

Hell, if anything else. All my ideas might make for one hell of a mod one day.
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