lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar
View Poll Results: Who has more honor?
The Jedi/Sith in the Canon Films are more honorable! 13 52.00%
The members of the JK2 community are more honorable! 4 16.00%
\"Jedi\" and \"honorable\" in the same sentence? Surely you jest! 8 32.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Movie Jedi vs. JK2 "Jedi" who has the honor? *SPOILERS*
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 07-15-2002, 06:00 AM   #1
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,319
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Post Movie Jedi vs. JK2 "Jedi" who has the honor? *SPOILERS*

It struck me recently, as I was watching the Star Wars films, by George Lucas and LucasFilm, that the Jedi in it have a lot to learn about "honor," a concept throughly mastered by this community of gamers.

Now before you jump all over me about how I'm wrong, let's take an open-minded look at the evidence, shall we?

I'd like to focus on the lightsaber battles of the canon films:

From the classic trilogy, we have ANH (A New Hope), ESB (Empire Strikes Back) and ROTJ (Return of the Jedi). Special Edition or non Special Edition, take your pick.

ANH:
Kenobi Vs. Vader.

Now compared to the other saber duels in the movies, this looks pretty pedestrian. It's slow, it lacks a lot of explosions and flips, and is full of close ups and stare-downs. BUT, it is probably the most honorably fought battle in the series. Disagree? Let's take a look....

At the beginning, you'll notice that these n00bs forget the first rule of an honorable duel... the bow.

Neither opponent bows to the other, showing a marked lack of honor. Let's move on and see if they redeem themselves!

You'll notice that Vader had his saber out at the beginning. Bad move... everybody knows that both sabers should be activated at the start together. He did wait for Obi-Wan to activate his blade and make the first move however, kudos to Vader.

In the course of the duel, no force powers were used, and nobody turned off their saber or ran away or pulled out another weapon. The duel took a long time, as all good duels should (especially in a movie). So far, so good.

Now we come to the end of the duel. Note that this is the ONLY duel that was FINISHED in the entire classic trilogy. What happened? Obi-Wan gave up! He put up his saber (still on of course) and closed his eyes, giving Vader a free kill.

Now what's wrong with this picture? Sure, it looks like Kenobi was being honorable because he didn't shut off his saber, forcing Vader to retreat or risk losing his honor by attacking an unarmed opponent. But let's compare to a real life JK2 duel. Your opponent suddenly stands perfectly still for a few seconds. The honorable thing to do is to back off and ask him what's wrong...

He's most likely changing his settings, typing, or got detained from his computer for some reason. Perhaps he was lagged, or his keyboard or mouse got unplugged. It was the height of dishonor to attack him in this clearly defensless state!

So Vader was dishonorable, and Kenobi was perhaps lacking honor by leaving his computer without saying "BRB."

ESB:
Skywalker Vs. Vader (vision in the cave)

True enough, this "battle" is meant to be a dream, vision, illusion or test cooked up by Yoda or Luke's own mind. But let's take a look.... nobody bowed. Luke activated his saber first. Luke TOOK VADER DOWN (and it would be the second duel fought to the death in the classic trilogy). All JK2 duels are to the death, I wonder why so many of these duels fail to meet that simple requirment?

Let's move on...

Skywalker Vs. Vader

Here we have something like a real duel, but numerous violations are made. First off (aside from the fact that they both forget to bow) Luke ignites his saber first, and Vader second, just like in the dream. But both opponents wait for the attack (note again, the "Light" Jedi makes the first attack).

Vader breaks all sorts of codes and rules when he attacks the boy without his (Luke's) saber activated! It happens once, perhaps even twice! Vader attacks and Luke has to reactivate his saber to prevent being killed!

The so-called "Dark Lord of the Sith" further tarnishes his name by using Force Throw on Luke in the middle of a duel. Clearly, he isn't out to match saber to saber, but get a cheap win by using a power on Luke that he clearly isn't capable of countering.

Not only that, but towards the end of the battle, Luke actually RUNS AWAY. He's wounded, but that's no excuse, it's to the DEATH, remember? He backs off and jumps off the building! Perhaps he knew he'd survive, but that's still cowardice. Or perhaps he was seeking to get a self-kill to avoid giving Vader the point that he EARNED? Obviously Luke is lacking in honor, just like his dad.

ROTJ:

Note that in this movie, we have more canon examples of a Light side Jedi attacking Non-Force opponents with a lightsaber. The first example was in ANH (Kenobi attacks Bonda Boba and his friend with a lightsaber in the Cantina). Next we saw both a non-Jedi (Han Solo) use a saber on a taun-taun corpse and Luke use one on a Wampa and an AT-AT in ESB. Here we see Luke kill or maim numerous Bounty Hunters and members of Jabba's gang with his green blade. He later uses his saber to disable a Scout trooper's speeder bike (leading to his death in a crash).

Now on to the duels...

Luke Vs. Vader

Despite his claiming to be a Jedi, and his experience, Luke again fails to bow (then again, neither does Vader, like Father, like Son). Both Vader and Luke attack each other with sabers off, but they clash at the same instant, so it's hard to know who broke the rule first. We'll say it was even.

Later on of course, we see Vader slipping into his old mould again, blatantly breaking the codes of honor. In addition to attacking Luke when his saber was off (muttering something about his son being "unwise" to lower his defenses...!), he even throws his saber at Luke when Luke has his saber off!

Luke, it must be pointed out, also ran away and HID during the battle!

Later Luke turns off his saber again, after wounding Vader (but not killing him). What is he waiting for? The Emperor gets impatient, and tosses lightning at Luke when Luke has his saber off and is just standing there... but Vader threw that n00b into a pit.

Sadly, Vader simply died from his injuries instead of at the end of a blade. A rather non-action-oriented ending to an otherwise interesting battle.

Now we move on to the prequels. With better technology and a better understanding of the Star Wars universe (mostly through the miracle of the Expanded Universe novels and comics) we can expect that these oversights can be cleared up, right? Wrong.

Again, the goods are not delivered, as we shall see.. and it's gotten WORSE, not better.

TPM (The Phantom Menace)

Jinn Vs. Maul

We see in this film another good example of Light Jedi using sabers against NF enemies, the battle droids, and the attempted assasination of the TradeFed Viceroy (cutting through his doors).

Now that we've finally gotten a chance to see "Jedi" and "Sith" "fighting in their prime" (remember that the classic trilogy featured dusty old men and cripples fighting alongside an inexperienced tenderfoot like Luke) we'd expect that they'd be following stricter codes of honor and discipline. Sadly, we are disappointed.

First off, in this battle neither opponent bows. Instead Maul leaps off of his speeder bike to attack Qui Gon (who meets his blade, so we won't take points off yet for drawing on an unarmed opponent). The battle is quite nice, and we see lots of action, however you'll note that Qui Gon RUNS AWAY before the battle is finished!

I guess they don't teach you to finish what you start in the Jedi Order! Here, Darth Maul (the Sith) partially redeemed himself for putting up with that crap move from the Jedi!

Kenobi & Jinn Vs. Maul

The title there should clue you in to how much is wrong with this battle! The first rule of Saber Dueling (other than bowing) is to fight ONE ON ONE. Man to Man! The supposedly morally superior Jedi gang up on the lone Sith.

Besides not bowing, the two jedi fight 2 verses 1, prompting Maul to cheat (via THEDESTROYER) to use a double bladed lightsaber. Thankfully it gets broken later on in the duel, so he has to fight with the true weapon of a Jedi.

During the battle, many more violations occur, including the use of Force Push and Throw by Maul. He also RUNS AWAY during the battle (I wouldn't blame him though, for throwing honor to the wind when he's fighting two Jedi with no sense of honor!). Maul forces a more honorable battle by cutting off Obi-Wan, but not before Qui Gon takes time out of the battle to HEAL! Perhaps Maul too used this time to heal, whilst HIDING BEHIND A FORCE FIELD in the middle of a duel.

Later on, Maul meets his death, after he kills Qui Gon. We assume he had time to heal after his first kill, so that was probably okay. Maul was perfectly within his rights to wait for Obi-Wan to get back up after he fell in the pit (but it was Maul who shoved him in, going for a cheap kill by the illegal use of Force Push during a duel!).

So ends the first pathetic performance of the prequel duelers.

AOTC (Attack of the Clones):

Perhaps this latest film will remedy the problems with the past films saber duels? I have a bad feeling about this....

It is of note that this film contains perhaps the largest number of instances of Light Jedi using their sabers against NF individuals, and so I won't go into every example. We also see the most saber users killed directly by non-Saber weapons and by non Jedi/Sith in any of the films (in fact, the ONLY examples)

Kenobi Vs. Dooku

Of course anyone who's seen the film will recall that Obi-Wan had PLANNED to have both himself and his apprentice Anakin attack Dooku/Tyrannus at the same time! Again, he cheats just like his old master Qui Gon taught him in TPM...

Thankfully, Dooku (with his saber OFF, if I'm not mistaken) defended the attack by Anakin (did he have more honor than his master? you decide) with lightning. The young apprentice was totally unable to block it, and was knocked out of the fight, preventing Obi-Wan's cheating with 2 vs. 1. (are we seeing a pattern here? It's always the Jedi who take the first step and try to cheat, and the Sith who keep them honest!).

Next Dooku lapses into lameness by throwing lightning at Obi-Wan as well (might as well use what works) using the same move over and over, until he realizes that it's useless against the guy who can block it. So they fight (finally!).

The battle goes well, but Dooku leaves Obi-Wan wounded (to heal, no doubt, as he is able to walk away later on).

Skywalker Vs. Dooku

Sadly, Dooku has no time to heal up between duels (as would be his right) and is attacked by Anakin again. Obi-Wan of course, helps him to cheat YET AGAIN, by tossing him another saber.

So he fights with TWO lightsabers, until Dooku can remove his second saber (much as Obi removed Maul's second blade in the previous film) to nullify the unfair advantage.

The duel goes pretty well and Anakin is severly wounded, and then Force Pushed away (though one could argue he's lost already).

Yoda Vs. Dooku

But... before Dooku can heal, he has to fight yet another opponent. Again, he reverts to his old tricks of tossing Force powers at an enemy who doesn't have his saber out. Thankfully the old Master is capable of countering all of Dooku's Force lightning and Throws. So they take out their sabers.

(While nobody bows during any of the duels in AOTC, it is notable that Dooku at least SALUTES once with his saber).

The battle goes well, although Dooku cheats at the end, by using the Force to threaten two wounded (and unarmed) Jedi, forcing Yoda to save them with the Force, while he RUNS AWAY.

What does Episode III hold? It will be LucasFilm's last chance to portray the honor and discipline shown in saber combat that we know the Jedi are legendary for upholding.

However, call me a pessimist, but I predict that we can only assume the worst... the Jedi and Sith will continue to break the sacred rules of honor and fail to fight fairly even in a saber to saber duel like in the games. It will be up to the members of the community to create these honorable duels, since the canon films and George Lucas have failed to portray them onscreen to any satisfaction.

; )
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-15-2002, 06:23 AM   #2
OnlyOneCanoli
Paranoid Bandroid
 
OnlyOneCanoli's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Fl, USA
Posts: 1,734
Thumbs up

Talk about Force Long Post, hehe. But that was definitely an entertaining read.

And what about that one Jedi WHO DFAs AN UNSUSPECTING ENEMY IN THE ARENA on Geonosis in AOTC? The dude had NO CHANCE to counter, and he was a NF opponent. OMFG n00b! The Jedi have no honor.
OnlyOneCanoli is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-15-2002, 06:40 AM   #3
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,319
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Thumbs up Poll: Movie Jedi or JK2 "Jedi"?

I added a poll.
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-15-2002, 06:58 AM   #4
uber h@x0r
 
uber h@x0r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 95
ha ha ha
fools!
there is no honor in a video game
i kill people while they have text boxes up,while they have there saber down,and while they arre frozen in mid air!
haahahahahahahahahah

i am ul3eR h@x0r


AAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
Look at that cute lil monkey...
eh? whats wrong?
NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
uber h@x0r is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-15-2002, 09:44 AM   #5
icefox98
 
icefox98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 233
Wow.

Well, I hope that was all a big joke.....

Anywho, in the theatre when I first saw the movie, I saw the DFA onto some droid, too. and I shouted, "PWNED!" And said to the person next to me, "Hah, catch that DFA, what a n00b."

Erm, anywho again.....they don't bow because it is a movie. A MOVIE not a video game. Sorry to say this, but video games can't potray a story very well...I could care less what happens to a character in a video game.

And....I have to agree with uber h@x0r (Sadly), There really is no honor in a video game. I mean....IT'S A VIDEO GAME. What more can I say? And DAMN that post was long and drawn out.

-Rosco

P.S. (I actually did say that about the DFA, muahahaha.) Also, whenever I would see anyone die, I would say, "PWNED."
icefox98 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-15-2002, 10:20 AM   #6
darthfergie
Q-38 Modulator
 
darthfergie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,254
LFN Staff Member 
Honor in the JKII community?

ROTFL

*counts how many times he's seen a player capped because of lag*
*falls over from fatigue*
*Groan*Too many numbers...*Groan*


darthfergie is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-15-2002, 10:21 AM   #7
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,319
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Post

Actually, they DO bow in the movies...


ANH:

Han Solo and Luke bow their heads to recieve their medals from Leia at the end.

ESB:

Vader bows before/to his Emperor.

ROTJ:

I can't remember, but I think there may be another instance of Vader (and other Imperial officials) bowing to the Emperor in this film as well.

The bureacrats (or advisors) bow before Palpatine.

The Ewoks bow before C3PO.

Throughout the trilogy, you see officers nod to Vader.

TPM:

Qui Gon and Obi-Wan bow before Boss Nass upon recieving the bongo and negotiating Jar Jar's release to their custody.

Qui Gon and Obi-Wan bow before the Jedi Council at LEAST once (and they nod back).

Qui Gon and the assembled Nabooians and Jar Jar bow before Boss Nass when they beg for their help.

Qui Gon nods to Watto after failing to convince him to use Republic Credits (he may bow to him at least one other time).

Jar Jar probably bows at least once, when he first meets Qui Gon and Obi-Wan.

The Jedi and others bow to Supreme Chancellor Valerum.

Update:

Obi-Wan bows to Master Yoda while he discusses the terms of his taking Anakin as his Padawan Learner after Qui Gon's death.

Trade Federation guys bow before Darth Sideous at least once.

AOTC:

A TON of scenes where dignitaries bow to each other before or after a meeting or business (Jar Jar, Padme, Obi-Wan/Anakin, etc) including the Jedi and Padme bowing to Supreme Chancellor Palpatine.

I may have missed some...
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-15-2002, 10:25 AM   #8
JandoFett1842
Master Chief
 
JandoFett1842's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 1,213
Jedi/Sith! They dont pull backstabs while u configer your force powers or chat!


JandoFett1842 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-15-2002, 10:25 AM   #9
uber h@x0r
 
uber h@x0r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 95
umm did you notice that the people that bowed were not about to try to slice the other persons head off


AAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
Look at that cute lil monkey...
eh? whats wrong?
NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
uber h@x0r is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-15-2002, 05:00 PM   #10
Hanch Saode
 
Hanch Saode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Coruscant
Posts: 525
Well...I never knew that that had to BOW.....like...it's not a tournament or something...

I'd say the show their foes respect anyway....

Like Ep1, the final duel between Maul and Qui-Gon and Obi, Maul drops his cape, pulls his saber, and passivly egnites it....and the two Jedi's do equally....I'd say this would be a gesture quite as good as a bow....

This happens in most of the duels in the movie....

So I don't really see where you are going...


"We're keepers of the peace... not soldiers."

Mace Windu - AOTC
Hanch Saode is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 09:33 AM   #11
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,319
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Thumbs up

You'll note that the instances of bowing I cited in the canon films had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with combat.

Nobody ever bowed before they fought, to show respect to their opponents, whether it was due or not. Instead, all bowing is done for non-combat purposes, almost universally to show respect to politians or dignitaries. So what sense does it make to associate bowing with honorable combat? By saying that it is associated with honorable combat, makes the vast majority of the canon film Jedi/Sith dishonorable.

That was the point of my post. ; )
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 10:03 AM   #12
Daishin
 
Daishin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ontario .:. Canada
Posts: 35
I bow to your dissecting abilities, Kurgan. Truly magnificent analysis, a post modern view of pre-apocalyptic circumstances..

And then there was the fact that it was as funny as hell!


Daishin
Emairu: daishin@gamebox.net
---
Got Sake?
.: i just want to fly out from this boring world :.
Daishin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 10:38 AM   #13
Eklin
 
Eklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 208
That was the best read I've had in a while.

It takes a master to turn a movie into a game.

Even though the Jedi in the movies don't bow or anything, they still hold more honor than a JK2 player.

Even though it IS a game, you should uphold your honor in all that you do.

The reason that they have that little datachip thingy above your head when you chat is so that people know that you aren't prepared to attack and that they should leave you alone.
But they don't.


The Man's Prayer:
"I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess..."
Eklin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 11:28 AM   #14
HellFyre69
 
HellFyre69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 588
omg.. How da hell can you compare a video game to a movie!! they are both different things, and there is no "Honor" in videogames. Is just a videogame, dont take the game to seriously to have n1 honor!.. Come on plus, those movies were like 2 decades old!. PPL used to have different opinion, back there.


It is obvious this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with the lightsaber."

-Count Dooku

HellFyre69 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 11:35 AM   #15
Daishin
 
Daishin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ontario .:. Canada
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally posted by HellFyre69
omg.. How da hell can you compare a video game to a movie!! they are both different things, and there is no "Honor" in videogames. Is just a videogame, dont take the game to seriously to have n1 honor!.. Come on plus, those movies were like 2 decades old!. PPL used to have different opinion, back there.
(hint: that wasn't the point)


Daishin
Emairu: daishin@gamebox.net
---
Got Sake?
.: i just want to fly out from this boring world :.
Daishin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 11:54 AM   #16
Master Hamlet
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 18
blah

well call me a loser but, personally when im playing jk2 i dont think of it as a game, i think of it as a jedi simulator lol. and in doing so i take it seroiusly, and i try to compete with as much honor as possible, bowing, not whoring any cheap moves (not even doing most i.e. kick, bs). however, unfortunately i must say that pf the people i have personally played, hardly any of them had any ounce of honor. :\ so i voted movies.
Master Hamlet is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 12:11 PM   #17
Daishin
 
Daishin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ontario .:. Canada
Posts: 35
Personally, I think being honourable is a fun pastime. I bow theatrically in a duel, I don't kill saber down or type box players.

However, I don't expect anyone else to do this and I don't moan at them if they don't. I just like the moral edge.


Daishin
Emairu: daishin@gamebox.net
---
Got Sake?
.: i just want to fly out from this boring world :.
Daishin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 12:20 PM   #18
uber h@x0r
 
uber h@x0r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 95
well master helmet i hate too tell you this but you are
THE LOSER LINK


AAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
Look at that cute lil monkey...
eh? whats wrong?
NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
uber h@x0r is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 12:21 PM   #19
Psionic Jedi
 
Psionic Jedi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reborn Correctional Institute
Posts: 391
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
You'll note that the instances of bowing I cited in the canon films had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with combat.

Nobody every bowed before they fought, to show respect to their opponents, whether it was due or not. Instead, all bowing is done for non-combat purposes, almost universally to show respect to politians or dignitaries. So what sense does it make to associate bowing with honorable combat? By saying that it is associated with honorable combat, makes the vast majority of the canon film Jedi/Sith dishonorable.

That was the point of my post. ; )

LOL Nearly missed the point, now that I read it I agree completely.

I mean, what's the chance that you and your opponent ignite your sabers at the exact same time, let alone get up from a bow at the exact same time? Force mind probe? And Darth Vader slaughtered hundreds-thousands of Jedi mercifully, what's to prevent him from pulling a DFA on the last two remaining Jedi? Honor code from a game that takes place several years after his death...

Good point Kurgan, entertaining way to spell it out


Without fear, there is no courage
Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself.
This would be really funny if it weren't happening to me.
In the land of California, in the heat of San Jose the dark haired PSIONIC JEDI forged in secret a master computer to control all others and into this computer he poured his money, his computer parts and many screws
One computer to rule them all. One computer to find the foes
One computer to bring them all to hell and in the darkness conquer
In the online gaming world where the envying ones lie.
-Original dito119
Psionic Jedi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 01:55 PM   #20
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,319
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Thanks guys, I had a good time writing it, heh.

A hopefully entertaining way of making a small point.

Quote:
omg.. How da hell can you compare a video game to a movie!! they are both different things, and there is no "Honor" in videogames. Is just a videogame, dont take the game to seriously to have n1 honor!.. Come on plus, those movies were like 2 decades old!. PPL used to have different opinion, back there
Lol... people do it ALL THE TIME. Half of the posts defending the "bowing" rule before duels cite the Jedi as their source, as if somehow it is just UNDERSTOOD that Jedi bow before every fight and that they are "role playing" by doing this. I looked in VAIN for evidence to support their claims. I haven't read all the EU books, but I can recall only one instance of anybody doing anything of the sort, and that was in the Zahn trilogy (or was it SOTE?) where Luke "saluted" with his saber handle to some people he'd help settle a dispute with. None of this bowing before a duel nonesense.

The best I can do is assume that some people who are more familiar with karate or Kendo here are bringing in some of their customs, hoping that it will enhance their game experience. I know that in various martial arts, the participants bow, because it is understood that this isn't a REAL fight. Nobody is really trying to kill anybody, it's just training, to build the discipline they are training in.

In fencing, of which I have some experience, there is a "salute" you do before each battle for similar reasons.

Perhaps the idea of "nobility" and "honor" are from a romanticized vision of the Samurai, and its somehow associated in people's minds with the Jedi.

In any case, the way I see it, the "role playing" aspect wouldn't be of two people training, but rather two enemies fighting to the death (like in the movies) so bowing seems inappropriate. ; )
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 10:23 PM   #21
Bluezman
 
Bluezman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 316
Kurgan: very nice, very entertaining Post!

However, I'd like to point out the following:

Bowing in the game is done to show respect to the opponent and to make sure both opponents are ready for battle.

In the movies, they don't bow, but they do other stuff, especially they talk before they fight (Kenobi/Vader, Luke/Vader etc.). In the movies it is always clear for both parties when the fighting is about to begin. They always make sure not to start a fight before the other one is ready.

Also, in the movies, you can be sure if someone is standing still, saber ignited and facing you, that he is ready and awaiting your attack. In the game, it could mean that you lag, that you are AFK or whatever. Hence the bow.

So actually, it is not soooo different from the movies...

Comments?
Bluezman is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 10:28 PM   #22
obi
LFN Staff Emeritus
 
obi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Augusta GA
Posts: 6,893
Current Game: Game of life, yo
All I have to say is Kurgan, you forgot a "yoda" option.


Good post! long, but good




Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?-Matthew 7:3-5
Living Water Revival

Me on Myspace

obi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-16-2002, 10:57 PM   #23
Daishin
 
Daishin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ontario .:. Canada
Posts: 35
With samurai, you don't 'bow' persay. The very move of drawing your katana, wakizashi or nagatina was a salute, telling your opponent that you are willing to match blades with him and possibly lose. That is a great honour among samurai.

[Edt: ^That's why I walk around with my saber (a katana model) unlit.]

Even in China, and the Oriental jungles, there was no bowing to an opponent except in a formalized match. Many martial arts styles have a 'starting position', a type of bow in of itself.


Daishin
Emairu: daishin@gamebox.net
---
Got Sake?
.: i just want to fly out from this boring world :.
Daishin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-17-2002, 03:39 PM   #24
Kurgan
Headhunter
 
Kurgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: The Dawn of Time
Posts: 18,319
LFN Staff Member 10 year veteran! 
Thumbs up Now we're getting somewhere!

Quote:
Bowing in the game is done to show respect to the opponent and to make sure both opponents are ready for battle.

In the movies, they don't bow, but they do other stuff, especially they talk before they fight (Kenobi/Vader, Luke/Vader etc.). In the movies it is always clear for both parties when the fighting is about to begin. They always make sure not to start a fight before the other one is ready.
Ah yes... this is perfectly fine and I agree. However, in a lightsaber challenge, at least as far as 1.03 (I haven't tried it with 1.04 so I'm not sure, maybe I'm thinking of JK++ and that's confusing me) both players ignite sabers AT THE SAME TIME AUTOMATICALLY and the announcer says "begin" so there's no need to do anything to indicate you're "Ready."

During a duel, it's assumed that when you're up, you're up, that's all there is to it, and the voice says "begin" there as well.

During an all out game, if somebody stands still or turns their back or turns off their saber, they're dead anyway, everybody knows that. If you whine, doesn't matter, you might just be hit by a stray rocket or something as somebody comes running around a corner... how are they supposed to know that you're just away from your computer?

If you're dueling and you need a signal, a word (hint: use chat binds) say "ready" or "go" or something, or simply swinging your saber should be hint enough that you're ready to fight.

All I ever had an argument with was the notion that bowing was somehow not only expected, but REQUIRED of EVERYONE even if they aren't in the mood to role play...

As a signal, I agree it has its place, but other forms will work just as well and are maybe even less cheesy. =)
Kurgan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-18-2002, 03:36 AM   #25
Bluezman
 
Bluezman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 316
Ok, Kurgan, here we go

First of all let me point out that I am neither against bowing nor do I consider it to be required. If the other one bows, fine, I bow. if not, I don't care. Just to clear this up.

Now back to the discussion.

Actually, I hate to rain on your parade but the comparison between Jedi in the movies and Jedi in the games is rather pointless (IMHO).

The supposedly "Jedi" in the game are no Jedi at all. Guess what: No "real" Jedi (meaning a Jedi from the movies) would get involved into any sort of activity that's in the (multiplayer) game.

Let's take a closer look at this thesis:

FFA games: you run around and try to score as many kills as possible in a given amount of time. You kill Jedi, Sith, Gunners, no matter what. Why? For the sake of killing. The person with the most frags wins. Duh. Thats so not jedi-like you wouldn't believe. A "real" Jedi would not do that. He would not fight for fighting's sake. He wouldn't fight Jedi. He would use the force only for defense, wisdom, healing, yada yada yada.

Holocron FFA: same thing as FFA games

Jedi Master: You try to kill the Jedi to get the saber. Only then you instantly become a Jedi and can use Force. WTF?!?!? That's so much not StarWars as anything!!!

Team FFA: Ok, this may be reasonable if it is like Jedi vs Sith. But even then, Jedi would probably act WAY more passive then it is required to win a Team FFA game. The whole "fighting for fighting's sake" thing also applies here and is against everything that Jedi stand for.

Capture the Flag: Well, replacing the flag with something of importance (like an R2 unit that contains valuable data) the idea is pretty much ok. Getting something and bring it to your base. If played correctly, it is about protecting teammates, not about attacking. Quite close, actually. However, the whole "honor, to bow or not to bow"-thing doesn't really apply in Capture the Flag. People don't bow and no one complains...

Capture the Ysalimari: Same thing here. It is rather a sports thing, no serious Jedi business. Bowing is also not of importance here.

Duel: Ahhh, now it gets interesting. This situation is imaginable. We have duels like these in the movies. But there is a decisive difference: The duels in the movies are between foes, they are really to the death (not to the respawn!). Now, online gaming for a lot of people is about sportsmanship. They like to compare skills. They like to see who is better. Being sportsmen, they like to fight by the rules. They talk about balance. In boxing, you touch hands before the fight. In a fight on the street, they don't do that. Same thing here. In "real life" (in the movies) they don't bow. In the game, well some people think they should.

I see it like this: Imagine JK2 as a "Jedi Training Simulator". Jedi train their skills, like they do training fights in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant. I would believe, that in these training fights, supervised by Yoda, the Padawans are required to bow, don't you think? (It's even somewhere in the books, I believe...)

The bottom line, you ask? We are all mere Padawans, no matter how much we kick ass in the game.

Just Padawans, playing a game. We'll never be as badass as the Jedi from the movies. So we may as well bow.

Comments?
Bluezman is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Game Discussion > Jedi Outcast > Movie Jedi vs. JK2 "Jedi" who has the honor? *SPOILERS*

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:40 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.