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Old 07-19-2002, 09:40 PM   #1
AKPiggott
 
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Some Handy Tips for SP Editors...

As some of you probably know, I edited the original Jedi Knight for three years and released several SP levels. I want to continue the same course for JO, and it pleases me to see many others with similar ambition.

Anyway, I thought it might be an idea to share some of my experience with you from what I've learnt editing SP, what works and what doesn't work. Also, if anyone else has any SP editing tips, please post them on this thread because I think it's good for people here to learn from each other. It would also be cool if a moderator could make this a sticky topic.

Anyways first off, story tips. I've seen lots of people in the past who want to edit a SP level, but can't think of a good story. I've found that the narration of the story is much more important than the actual story content itself. For instance, some people take the time to write a detailed prologue (usually found in the readme) and then throw the player in the shoes of the main character to conclude what had been written in prologue. There's usually little player immersion in these types of levels. I think the best levels are the ones with very little pre-story that have a plot fold out right in front of the player's eyes. Don't reveal all story aspects at once. Leave some twists and surprises for later. In the case of working with Star Wars, it's beneficial to find an expert on all the EU, so you can cross your story with the outline of the books and comics to make sure there's no conflicts (otherwise you get some die-hard EUers bitching about that at a later date). I've found that people love it when you introduce familiar Star Wars characters with convincing voice-overs. Example, a level I made for MotS two years ago, BoaM3. One of the reasons it was instantly popular because it had Darth Vader and the Emperor in it, and I was very fortunate to find a fantastic voice actor to portray the two. Problem with using these characters is you have to pay closer attention to EU conflicts. You also have to stay true to the character in the case of dialogue and behaviour. Good example, Dark Luke's JK SP level "Dark Emperor 2" had Luke Skywalker spouting some terrible dialogue, the level left an awful after-taste with many players. The author displayed great skill with the editor, but it was the story and dialogue (two crucial, often underestimated elements) that really let it down.

Cutscenes are important to a good story. I recommend everyone who wants to tell a good story to learn cutscenes inside-out. You should also keep them dynamic, have voice-actors, frequent camera changes and action. My earlier JK levels had cutscenes where the characters were standing around with subtitles representing their speech. Many reviewers and players complained about this, saying it's just a complete bore. So it's important to remember that cutscenes are there to entertain the player as well as convey the story.

If you have to have a boss in your level, make it a puzzle boss as opposed to a "shoot the crap out of it until it dies" boss. You will get a lot of praise and it will help make a memorable conclusion to your level. The only downer on this is that you will get loads of people getting stuck and e-mailing you for help. But you can just ignore them.

Layout is quite important too. Try to stray away from linear layouts. I like it in levels where the player has to go back and forth within an enviornment, it makes the game world a bit more convincing.

Beta testing is especially important. I find it best to have your level tested by others from an early stage, so that you can make adjustments and fix things as you go along. Also, try to get a varied mix of beta testers. Try to get some fellow SP editors who know the engine well and can provide feedback on the more technical issues as well as some who play, but don't edit. The latter usually have less suggestions, but you will get a better idea of what the general gaming public will think of your level.

[edit: Also, try to make sure you have testers with varying system specs, and ask for feedback on how well it performs on their system. That way you can make sure that lower ended systems can cope with your level.]

One final and important note for this post, gameplay is much more important than visuals. It is very easy to impress somebody with something that looks nice, but you will get a much more lasting impact with something that plays just as well. I have played some levels in the past with amazing eye candy that are just lacking the depth and soul of a really decent SP adventure.

Anyone with questions/comments/more tips, please post them here and good luck to anyone who is working on a SP level. .


Enter the Dark Lord, coming soon. Watch the Teaser Trailer.
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Old 07-19-2002, 10:07 PM   #2
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Hello..

Very nice post

Uhm Did u make sp maps for Dark Forces 2???????? '
If u did, great work !!! One of the greatest game I played(at that time)...

Im currently completing a MP Map (only sound problems left)
And have started a little on a SP map...

However my "story" isnt that good as I wiched....

The story (not detailed):
You start in the outside of the hown in a backally. Your there to free a group of rebels that has been captured by Some Evil Jedi(dont know who yet) and his troops. First you have to find and get in to they hideout. And from there it goes on...

Uhm of course somethings are going to change while playing, but thats the basic, what does an expert like u say??

- Robe 1, over and out
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Old 07-20-2002, 02:36 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by darth_micke
Did u make sp maps for Dark Forces 2???????? '
If u did, great work !!! One of the greatest game I played(at that time)...
Yeah I made levels for the game which I released independently on the net. But I didn't actually make levels for the retail game unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally posted by darth_micke
However my "story" isnt that good as I wiched....

The story (not detailed):
You start in the outside of the hown in a backally. Your there to free a group of rebels that has been captured by Some Evil Jedi(dont know who yet) and his troops. First you have to find and get in to they hideout. And from there it goes on...

Uhm of course somethings are going to change while playing, but thats the basic, what does an expert like u say??
Well, one thing I would do is a big build-up between your character and and the Dark Jedi, which will pay off at the end where I assume you will get to fight him. So basically, make up some sort of history between the two (something a bit more original than the Dark Jedi killing the good Jedi's father) and some how convey that plot point into cutscenes. You could have a meeting between the two near the beginning, which ends rather awkwardly. Just go with something like that and I'm sure as your ideas and level develop, you'll think of plenty more cool ideas that you can implement.

Another tip for people: Go check out some of the SP levels made for JK/MotS at http://www.massassi.net, there are some great ideas used in some of those levels.


Enter the Dark Lord, coming soon. Watch the Teaser Trailer.
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Old 07-20-2002, 02:42 AM   #4
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Ahh okey...while I played that I hadnt got access to internet


Well, I was thinking of something like that... But I need to learn scripting (Im trying to right now)... But I wish to finish up my mp map before I really start scripting.....

However I thought like if I started by seeing a fight between Luke Skywalker and The Evil Jedi....where Skywalker failed an died..and in a cutscene his last wish would be that I didnt follow the jedi, coz its not very jedi-like to seek revenge.... however Kyle is stupid and follow the Evil Jedi ....

What u think of that?? Not to bad I hope
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Old 07-20-2002, 02:58 AM   #5
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Hmm.. if you were to use that idea, I would change the characters.. don't make it Kyle and Luke because it will conflict with the EU, if you're going to kill anyone off, you're best off making up your own characters. Perhaps an interesting way to do it is to not let the player know right away that this bad Jedi killed a god Jedi's friend. So what you could do is have the main character displaying hatred for the bad guy without the player knowing why, then maybe have a flashback scene or something later on showing the bad Jedi killing the good Jedi's friend.


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Old 07-20-2002, 03:11 AM   #6
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Well, I see your point.. But 2 things: 1. I cant make my own skins, to dumb I guess 2. To do what u ask me I would be to create a much more advandced cutscene that I thought of...

However if I get good enough of scripting I will try....

Mean time u could teach me skinng since I dont get the jediknightii.com tut


Thx..
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Old 07-20-2002, 05:39 AM   #7
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You might be able to convince a skinner to make some skins for you.

If I were you, I would stay away from scripting for now and concentrate on building the arch first. It's the best way for beginner to learn I think.


Enter the Dark Lord, coming soon. Watch the Teaser Trailer.
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Old 07-20-2002, 05:43 AM   #8
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Well, no offence......but I like to make it all myself....And only in special cases I would ask someone doin somethin for me...

And so I really want to learn skinning to.........Please??

Meeeeep, meeeeep *making sad droid sound*
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Old 07-20-2002, 06:13 AM   #9
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Good, soon we may have maps more than-

Kyle katarn has landed in a rather horrible looking imperial base (prehaps with luke- or a squad of jedi or whatnot) fight your way through hordes of stormtroopers with no item placement what soever , kill a huge amount of reborn/reskinned reborn- kill desann/tavion/maul clone/vader clone escape on ship (escaping being getting into the same room as it)

I wouldn't mind so much if the levels simply werent so UGLY.

Now AKpiggot is back in buisness we will hopefully see some more awsome SP levels-

*Tips hat to the editing legend*

Darth_Micke just find BOAM SE on massassi- it is sooo movielike its scary. Not many levels are so fun and creative.


"Your life does flash before your eyes before you die..... the process is called LIVING"
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Old 07-20-2002, 06:18 AM   #10
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lonepadawan: I share your thoughts!! Hate those games... its just so boring.... but..have u checked my story?? If u have gimmie some feedback before I start doin anything.....(read the follow-ups to)......thx




Meep Meep *making droid sound*
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Old 07-20-2002, 07:28 AM   #11
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bump to the top *need this thread alive*
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Old 07-20-2002, 07:46 AM   #12
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Darn...

Well.....just wanted to let my fellow sp lovers know that the map I was working on, is not officaly dead..... Im going to find inspiration elsewhere......
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Old 07-20-2002, 11:57 AM   #13
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Emon should like this thread, surprised he hasnt replyed to it.

Good advice AkPiggot, I shall keep it in mind.
Though good grief I doudt I will be able to pack all of that into my first few attempts


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i dont like quake, never liked quake, and i dont like SW-themed quake. so basically jk2mp.exe does not get used on my computer.
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Old 07-20-2002, 02:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Though good grief I doudt I will be able to pack all of that into my first few attempts
hehehe yeah there should be another tip for mappers: you dont need to release your first map
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Old 07-20-2002, 03:33 PM   #15
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rofl

excellent tip idontlikegeorge, i will support this


another tip of the same style: dont make a 20.000 units large room that has one big light, 100 times seamed textures and masses of enemies at once and then call it a map or players will remind your name in a bad manner


but to be serious

its helpful to read some literature about the structure of dramatic scenes and other scene mediums like in movies, so you know when and how to use different storyelements in the game and dont burn the whole excitement in the beginning. Some analyzing of the sp levels raven has created can pushing you forward into more professionel thinking areas

tension curves are also important for an interactive story where players shall being sucked into an environment that should be lived/played in a way the creator originally intended it. Like Piggot has said, dont reveal all your secrets in the beginning. Catch the players attention with a low average beginning event, then add smaller "fill events" until a medium sized event is presented to the player, then again let the tension curve fall a bit and confront the player with one or two big events near the end of your level. But dont forget, less can be more

so draw a timeline for your level and put all important events onto the timeline with specified information about the place of the event, the lighting, environment sound/music, the trigger(s), the participating npcs, the results and the feelings the player should have during this event

this way you will get a better plan how to stuff up your level with story content and how to optimize your level geometry for scripting and story content


and about unlinear content, i like this, too

efficient design is, when you cross an area that has some good visible subareas that are not accessible because of closed doors, debris, big enemies, etc but that you can access later when you have more power or activated triggers which opened your further way.
I always liked the feeling (im sure, im not the only one), when i passed an area, went hours and hours into new buildings and then reached an already passed area through a new way.
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Old 07-20-2002, 03:41 PM   #16
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Very insightful comments, I agree with everything minus one element. Personally I'm not a fan of going back through rooms five times, or fighting your way through countless bad guys just so you can open a door that you saw at the beginning of a level, to be honest, I think it's gimmicky and lazy, and crushes a hollow sense of advancement but that's just me, heh.


I like where you can see into previous parts of the level, or maybe even cross over once or twice, but in the JK2 singleplayer for example, constantly going back through was really predominant, and pretty annoying.

Personally I don't think Raven in any of their games has made exemplar single player, in either story or design. Take a look at Deus Ex, or Half-Life, or the original Jedi Knight. People still talk about those games, and they'll still be talking about them in ten years.
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Old 07-20-2002, 04:45 PM   #17
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Like I'm gonna have the time to do all this. Hire voice actors....BULLSPIT! What am I going to do, call up Rob Paulson and Billy West..errr maybe good ol' Jonathan Harris of Lost in Space fame...he's pretty sought after in this field...

no!!!!!!

I'm not fortunate to sit in front of my computer 12 hours a day to do this stuff SOOOOoo in depth for I have a job!!! So in my level, theres not gonna be voice actors, and there's not going to dynamic cutscenes either... I have a few ideas for cutsenes..and if i ever find a tutorial on it I may do it.
You will get better archetecture, interesting locale, and hopefully a working mission objective area. Maybe a cutscene or 4 if I can figure it out....but as for now, you make the really great levels, and I'll make the Junior Varsity ones...lol


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Old 07-20-2002, 05:20 PM   #18
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Excellent advice, Drakewl.

Quote:
Originally posted by darth_micke
Well, no offence......but I like to make it all myself....And only in special cases I would ask someone doin somethin for me...
I can't really teach you, because I'm not a skinner, I'm a level editor. Best thing I can say is look for skinning tutorials for any Q3 based game. There's some good stuff out there, if you can find it.

Quote:
Originally posted by idontlikegeorge
hehehe yeah there should be another tip for mappers: you dont need to release your first map
YES. That is a very important tip indeed, can't believe I didn't think of that.

Quote:
Originally posted by Takeoffyouhoser
Like I'm gonna have the time to do all this. Hire voice actors....BULLSPIT! What am I going to do, call up Rob Paulson and Billy West..errr maybe good ol' Jonathan Harris of Lost in Space fame...he's pretty sought after in this field...
If I can do it anyone can. I don't mean professional voice actors that you pay. Just members of the community who can act to a microphone. I had no trouble finding them in the original JK community, and there were far less people there than there are in this community.

Quote:
Originally posted by Takeoffyouhoser
I'm not fortunate to sit in front of my computer 12 hours a day to do this stuff SOOOOoo in depth for I have a job!!! So in my level, theres not gonna be voice actors, and there's not going to dynamic cutscenes either... I have a few ideas for cutsenes..and if i ever find a tutorial on it I may do it.
You will get better archetecture, interesting locale, and hopefully a working mission objective area. Maybe a cutscene or 4 if I can figure it out....but as for now, you make the really great levels, and I'll make the Junior Varsity ones...lol
I never said you had to sit all day in front of your computer. I have a life too, and I'm sure every other SP editor has as well. I will say this though, a good SP level of considerable length can take several months to make.


Enter the Dark Lord, coming soon. Watch the Teaser Trailer.
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Old 07-20-2002, 05:23 PM   #19
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heheh hoser
actually, getting voice actors shouldnt be too hard, just post on some forums, send some lines to people interested, they send you a sound, if you like it, send them more lines, get more sounds, put their name in the credits!

and its not like we dont have jobs or lives either



Quote:
another tip of the same style: dont make a 20.000 units large room that has one big light, 100 times seamed textures and masses of enemies at once and then call it a map or players will remind your name in a bad manner
cough*emperorsvilla*cough

Quote:
Very insightful comments, I agree with everything minus one element. Personally I'm not a fan of going back through rooms five times, or fighting your way through countless bad guys just so you can open a door that you saw at the beginning of a level

Take a look at Deus Ex, or Half-Life
well, for one thing, a majority of HL levels revolved around going some god-forsaken path just to end up on the other side of a locked door/obstacle; but yeah they did not usually force the player to go straight thru areas theyve been

and deus ex? hell repetiveness is the name of the game; of course being an RPG, its need to create a free world requires this; granted, if the player just goes to the objectives, and doesnt explore, that isnt the case

basically, that tip should be more specific: dont require the player to go repeatedly thru areas already visited; the only exceptions would be because of storyline

Quote:
I had no trouble finding them in the original JK community, and there were far less people there than there are in this community.
yeah but more ppl doesnt mean a better community...
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Old 07-20-2002, 06:53 PM   #20
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i dont dig the fully cinematic style plot revealing cutscenes u see in jk2 and jk1 and mots with camera changes and stuff

i prefer the MOHAA style where the players control is locked and a bunch of scripted events happen in front of their fov, like with the bespin cop in jk2

i think its better for maintaining the feeling of being in the level, so my levels arent gonna have the more popular flashy camera changing epic type ones

also i think complex convoluted storylines arent as important as immersive gameplay though there has to be a reason behind the players predicament.

i think the only important tip i would give sp level guys is not to use boring, kyle "the beard" katarn as the player, he quite simply sux

...oh and also use area portals, i think im yet to see an sp level that does and consequently one that is playable on my crap system


-patch
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Old 07-20-2002, 07:26 PM   #21
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Hmm.. the problem with doing it from the player's POV is that it is very easy to make it boring, particuarly if the player is forced to stand still and watch the action. I think that scripted sequences from the player's POV should be kept much shorter than cutscenes, therefore you must not use a very deep layered story that will take a lot of verbal explanation from the player's POV.


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Old 07-20-2002, 07:55 PM   #22
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yeah true

my story line is going to be revealed through npcs talking to the player as the players ship "descends" into the level, scripted events around the player and the objectives mostly

but its not exactly a twisting and turning soap opera so it should be okay


-patch
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Old 07-20-2002, 08:42 PM   #23
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Uhmmm..... I've read richdiesals tut..but.. Im stupid....

How do u create area portals?


and another thing: anyone who wanna teach me skinning, your welcome add me on msn: micke_88_@hotmail.com

Also I need some help on scripting..



And any good/decent mapper may add me.....

I know there is probably noone wo wanna help a n00bie droid but well well......a try is better that nothin......
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Old 07-20-2002, 10:48 PM   #24
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good points, emon


speaking about story implementation, puzzles and cutscenes, designers should give all of this a "ground" or base first.

The base is not just the level architecture, it consists more of environment and ambient factors like scene dynamics, lighting which fits into the place, ambient sounds, music and detail work. You can summarize it as atmosphere.
Create lively and and plausible places.

You can have the best level with an awesome architecture and an exciting story, but if the level is sterile in relation with lighting and scene dynamics the player probably wont experience the story, just "eating" it.

Putting crates and spaceships here and there into the level wont make it so much more lively, its just the beginning of the work.

just an example:
If the level consists of a once high frequented base that was damaged and rebuild through the years make it looking so, not only building a base. Create broken walls and cracks on the ground. Put broken stones on the ground that once were a part of the walls. Make doors that dont open properly or that open and close automatic from time to time without being triggered by the player. Having some minor experience in Photoshop or similar apps you can make a bunch of textures dirty/bloody/damaged, so you get the image of a much used based that can tell you decades of history . In the process of rebuilding the base the troops may have shut down old generators or pipes and have built new ones through different corridors. At some spots there could be steam leaks with bright clouds and a whizzing sound coming out of the leak. Certain lights could be flickering (in relation with a fitting sound) to look like being damaged, but its clever here to add some non flickering lights into the same room, so you dont provoke an epileptic reaction on side of the player.
Put items in a chaotic manner on the floors, on tables or consoles, like there has been an evacuation where troops have thrown away what they had in their fingers or below their asses at this time.
If areas have no power, make them looking so, dont build bright lights and flickering computer interfaces into them and tell the player you have to switch on the power for this room.

There are so much more elements and i could write some more pages, but my little introduction into detail work should give you a good image of what can be done, but you set the priorities yourself.

Giving a certain story a lively place of such caliber will make it more enjoyable and this way a remarkable experience.


dont let them play your level, let them feel it
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Old 07-20-2002, 10:56 PM   #25
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weird, seems there has been a database error

i wrote a new reply after reading darth-nasty's last posting and the database put it into the middle of the thread.


a new attempt of being on the right position ....

------------------------------------
good points, emon


speaking about story implementation, puzzles and cutscenes, designers should give all of this a "ground" or base first.

The base is not just the level architecture, it consists more of environment and ambient factors like scene dynamics, lighting which fits into the place, ambient sounds, music and detail work. You can summarize it as atmosphere.
Create lively and and plausible places.

You can have the best level with an awesome architecture and an exciting story, but if the level is sterile in relation with lighting and scene dynamics the player probably wont experience the story, just "eating" it.

Putting crates and spaceships here and there into the level wont make it so much more lively, its just the beginning of the work.

just an example:
If the level consists of a once high frequented base that was damaged and rebuild through the years make it looking so, not only building a base. Create broken walls and cracks on the ground. Put broken stones on the ground that once were a part of the walls. Make doors that dont open properly or that open and close automatic from time to time without being triggered by the player. Having some minor experience in Photoshop or similar apps you can make a bunch of textures dirty/bloody/damaged, so you get the image of a much used based that can tell you decades of history . In the process of rebuilding the base the troops may have shut down old generators or pipes and have built new ones through different corridors. At some spots there could be steam leaks with bright clouds and a whizzing sound coming out of the leak. Certain lights could be flickering (in relation with a fitting sound) to look like being damaged, but its clever here to add some non flickering lights into the same room, so you dont provoke an epileptic reaction on side of the player.
Put items in a chaotic manner on the floors, on tables or consoles, like there has been an evacuation where troops have thrown away what they had in their fingers or below their asses at this time.
If areas have no power, make them looking so, dont build bright lights and flickering computer interfaces into them and tell the player you have to switch on the power for this room.

There are so much more elements and i could write some more pages, but my little introduction into detail work should give you a good image of what can be done, but you set the priorities yourself.

Giving a certain story a lively place of such caliber will make it more enjoyable and this way a remarkable experience.


dont let them play your level, let them feel it
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Old 07-21-2002, 02:55 AM   #26
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You're absolutly right, AK.

Here are some more (targeted at JO especially)...

1. If you're not going to have a puzzle boss and instead are going to fight guys like Dark Jedi, do some changes to the AI. For example, give him a low amount of health (100-200 as opposed to Desann's 500), but jack up their reaction and evasion factors so they get hit LESS. Also remove Force powers from them like level 3 throw, grip, lightning, and those powers that Desann likes to spam. That's the worst part about fighting Desann. Try making your Dark Jedi boss hard to HIT, not hard to kill.

2. Many people are going to be somewhat bored of saber fighting by this time, especially me. If you're aiming for an epic end battle, try to make the envirnment epic as well. Make it really detailed and plenty of room, and also a lot of depth (not just flat ground). For example, fighting on some cliffs or something where you could easily fall off or get pushed off perhaps... Lots of destroyable things around you like rocks that you can hit with your saber.. It looks really cool to be dueling it out with some Dark Jedi and one of the sabers misses and cuts down a boulder or a pillar or something.

3. For level design, try to built out the level then make the puzzles around the LEVEL, don't build your level around the puzzles. If you build the level around the puzzles you'll end up with unconvincing, unrealistic puzzles that probably rely on Force Jump, just like some of JO's really crappy puzzles. For example, if you have a spaceport level, make the entire spaceport as if you could actually use it. Meaning, every area should have a purpose and should be detailed. Don't make useless places that have no practical purpose. They aren't convincing or realistic. An example of one of these useless places is the end area in JO where you fight Desann. Just some big open useless room, and the only way in is to get past a bunch of crushing/pushing wall things.. really stupid, IMO. Building with this method should also lead to non-linear levels. If you've got a realistic spaceport, then you'll have multiple entry and exit points around the map for each section, which is what makes a level non-linear. Also try to make multiple ways to beat the level, if possible. Most non-linear level provide you with mutliple ways to end up at the same switch. Aim for a level where there's more than one way to beat it. E.g. You're exfiltrating an Imperial base, allow the player to exit with more than one path. Same goes for entering the base. There shouldn't be just ONE way in. Give the player some choice.

4. About the story.. I agree, don't give a lot of it away. The only parts you should at first tell the player is what is in the opening title crawl (you should have one).


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Old 07-21-2002, 03:14 AM   #27
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Volrath, I agree. Even if it's some text in the corner of the screen so you know what you're playing. An installer would be nice, too, one with an uninstaller as well. Another GUI enhancement would be to re-add the dismember probabilities option in the menu. That, or default g_dismemberprobabilities to 0 in a startup.cfg or something. 2 is rare, 1 is normal, and 0 is excessive dismemberment. Unlike g_saberrealisticcombat, it only lets you dismember one joint, and doesn't add damage to the saber. Thus, you can't walk into someone and watch them get blenderized with your lightsaber. Oh, and any crap about g_dismemberprobabilities 500 being the most is bull####. 0 is the most.


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Old 07-21-2002, 04:08 AM   #28
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Quote:
3. For level design, try to built out the level then make the puzzles around the LEVEL, don't build your level around the puzzles. If you build the level around the puzzles you'll end up with unconvincing, unrealistic puzzles
Quote:
We really made an effort to make our puzzles part of the enviroment rather than just some sort of arbetory rubix cube that you encounter along the way
-Making of Riven

And Emon your right! I'm sick of bosses (always reskinned reborns of course) that just take so LOOOOOOONG to die, yet you are always hitting them.

Another tip for level makers (I do have some exprience in this area for JK1, I made some "personal levels" with me and my friends [and the headmaster as a badguy] fighting through the school and other familiar real life and SW loacations) the WOW factor. Give people somthing to remember your level by. For me it was the fact that WE were in it (that and being able to choose your character)
For example-

Scipted events.. theres nothing like running down a crumbling tunnel or a totally unexpected event to give someone fond memories of a level- or a boulder/ maths teacher (don't ask) rolling after you.

Bosses- A cool boss. A boss with a gun... a cool jedi/dark jedi boss - a creature boss (Like AKpiggots rancor defence monster.. and did we have to shoot that to bits??? NO- we hit on the head with a great big electric pipe!!!)

Fighting alongside someone - fighting alongside Luke was one of the coolest moments for me in JK2 - that and fighting alongside the students of the jedi academy. Fighting along Han is also pretty cool.

Eye candy- a beutiful area.. an area that captures the feel of the place you are trying to represent.

Somthing totally awsome- Somthing out of the ordianary, somthing never done before- riding a boat and shooting down maylocks... a shop and money system, use of a cool new kind of enemy...

I rest my case


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Old 07-21-2002, 05:13 AM   #29
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i dont dig the fully cinematic style plot revealing cutscenes u see in jk2 and jk1 and mots with camera changes and stuff

i prefer the MOHAA style where the players control is locked and a bunch of scripted events happen in front of their fov, like with the bespin cop in jk2
good point, HL and MoH style, of having everything laid out in the players field of view, is a good way to immerse the player into the game; however, it doesnt bring any life to the character being played; i mean, we really dont learn anything about gordon freeman, or mike powell, in those games

i think deus ex has a nice balance; but that game is more made to be an rpg, not an action game

anyway, it depends on the style the creator wants their "episode" to be portrayed like

Last edited by idontlikegeorge; 07-21-2002 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 07-21-2002, 06:00 AM   #30
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I'm pleasantly surprised by the input people are giving, it's just a shame that the threads all whacked up due to database errors.

Title screens are extremely easy and modifiable for JO. I'm making one for my level and I've completely re-arranged everything so that it is alligned in the centre. I'll see if I can get a screenshot.


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Old 07-21-2002, 07:49 AM   #31
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I have one more tip for any SP editors that quite frankly bugs me.

If you've taken the time to make a really cool map shouldn't you let people know that that's what they're playing? Please make some UI changes like the background for the main screen, maybe change the title from Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast to like Star Wars: Your Map Name or Story Name. I mean it may not seem like much, but changing some graphics helps. When people load your map as a mod and there are no graphical changes, many people can get confused simply because everything looks the same. If you've made some necessary graphical changes, people load your map and say "Cool. This looks good."

Just a thought.



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Old 07-21-2002, 08:53 AM   #32
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Lightbulb

Reading through this has given me the bestest idea for a sp level!

it has the bestest story

(mind you it probably contradicts a lot of EU stuff cos ive never read any)

but i have the story fully in my head

(mind you, everyone else will probably think my story sux)
im gonna have to try and learn how to map now thnx a lot
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Old 07-22-2002, 05:23 PM   #33
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bumping up this great thread (on the new server hopefully without database errors)

----------------


with making some customized interface graphics you can give all of those unemployed web- or screendesigners some work


which 3d egoshooters do you remember that had a great sense for humor, especially sci-fi egoshooters?

giving your protagonist some rocking sayings (like Duke Nukem) or other npcs funny gossip to tell you, will probably make players laugh their asses off
and it shouldnt be too difficult to take your own voice recordings, like eagle showed with his tragin galo map.

it can even be a long proven easteregg, people will surely take notice of this
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Old 07-22-2002, 06:01 PM   #34
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Man, is this a great topic post!!

My level is going to have no sabers, no reborn, and oh yes, no force powers. How do you like them apples!!!!
I understand people enjoy the force and saber, but, I have too many good ideas not to make this kinda of level.....

I have gotten alot of archetecture ideas from RTCW, and gameplay ideas as well....so no force/saber/jedi....


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Old 07-22-2002, 06:06 PM   #35
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Uhm no offence but....I do know 'bout u but I thin the saber makes this game....the force powers....yeah I could skip them (like lightning grip and that ####) especially on bosses like desann who uses lightning and grip constantly.....

But, I do think the saber is a great deal.....
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Old 07-22-2002, 06:11 PM   #36
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just because its set in SW doesnt mean you have to have force powers

like i was thinking a story would be cool about just a grunt rebel or imperial on their personal quest just to survive in the jacked up galaxy - would be cool having them appear in areas seen in the movies, etc, - like maybe a grunt in echo base, while walking down the hall to report to a superior, you can see han n leia rush by in their little argument, etc. (HL did things like that - like the end of blue shift, you see thru a grate gordon freeman being dragged by marines when he was captured)

stuff like that is cool


COUGH*SOISTHISTHREADGONNABESTICKIEDORWHAT??*COUGH
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Old 07-22-2002, 08:00 PM   #37
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Originally posted by idontlikegeorge
just because its set in SW doesnt mean you have to have force powers

like i was thinking a story would be cool about just a grunt rebel or imperial on their personal quest just to survive in the jacked up galaxy - would be cool having them appear in areas seen in the movies, etc, - like maybe a grunt in echo base, while walking down the hall to report to a superior, you can see han n leia rush by in their little argument, etc. (HL did things like that - like the end of blue shift, you see thru a grate gordon freeman being dragged by marines when he was captured)

stuff like that is cool


COUGH*SOISTHISTHREADGONNABESTICKIEDORWHAT??*COUGH
Good point. Our sp campaign is based around a Stormtrooper. No force powers, no saber. All guns, but of course, with obvious tweakings to the weapons.dat file.

Good analogy idontlikegeorge with Half-Life. That kind of stuff does kick butt.



She left ya now she's back stickin out her rack
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Can't wait to see her face when I'm in her place
and I'm tryin to get ya in the sack


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Old 07-22-2002, 11:04 PM   #38
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Non-Jedi is good, except that with JO, the guns really suck and are ineffective, and you can't change that, unfortunatly.


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Old 07-23-2002, 01:40 AM   #39
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On the topic of fitting the EU, AK, I found a problem with your JO SP levels! You showcased the Malastare spaceport, and you said Malastare was the Gran homeworld. Malastare is the homeworld of the Dug species, Kinyen is the Gran homeworld. You might want to change that...

Here are the entries from the unoffical SW encyc:

http://www1.theforce.net/CUSWE/searc...ndD=EyDn&no=10

AND

http://www1.theforce.net/CUSWE/searc...ndD=EyDn&no=10


Clarionet, n. An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarionet -- two clarionets.
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Old 07-23-2002, 05:09 AM   #40
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Yeah Emon, people pointed that out at Massassi. No biggie, it hasn't affected the level in anyway, just brought some information to my attention that can prove handy. Thanks for the links.

This is actually a good example of taking full use of the community.


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