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Old 07-31-2002, 11:52 PM   #1
Bird Of Prey!
 
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Angry Players who snipe saber fights piss me off!

Bitch mode on!

Sorry, but I have to get this off of my chest. Why is it that some players continuously snipe, rocket, or grenade, saber fights?? The last few nights that I have played I've had this happen over and over again. If I kick the person, after several warnings, another one takes his place.

Before you respond with "That is what the Duel feature is for." I don't like duels on a regular, no mod, server. Why?? You can only engage one person at a time, you can't use the force powers, and cannot restore your health. Sure it's a true test of skill but I'd rather engage in a meelee with 5 to 6 others at once. That is the true test of skill and is very exciting.

Exciting until you have Johnny, "I just bought this game, I've got a 56K connection, my computer barely meets specs, etc. Firing the rocket launcher, sniper weapon, or Flechette weapon into the crowd.

I'm certain that someone is thinking "Well, just play with sabers only." Bah!! I like to use the saber but not exclusively. A saber only match becomes very boring after a while. A skilled warrior can use the mix of weapons to achieve the winning advantage without camping or sniping.

In my opinion, if you want to use guns and rockets go play Quake or Soldier of Fortune. Quit pissing the rest of us off!

Bitch mode off!

I feel better now!


DAMNIT! I'm not a nOOb, in the scope of things I'm as old as Yoda so my reflexes are a bit slower!

I'm so old that I was typing basic commands into my Atari 800 while most of you young whippersnappers weren't even a sparkle in your Daddy's eyes!! LOL!
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Old 08-01-2002, 12:17 AM   #2
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You have to look at it from the other point of view. Since 1.04 there are mostly saber only FFA servers out of the ones with a Ping of under a 100. It is hard to find a good guns server. Then when you get there, everyone is having saber battles. The only way to get some gun action going is to break up some of the battles. So, you take a rocket launcher and take out some saberists. I'll always attack someone attacking me before I attack people fighting but if nobody is I get desperate.
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Old 08-01-2002, 12:18 AM   #3
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I disagree with you. Yes, if there is a section where everyone is waiting and no one wants to be bothered by snipes or flying rockets that's fine, but you can't expect to use guns against other and then when your deuling someone everyone suddenly has to stop firing at you. In FFA the point of the game is the get as many kills as you can. There's no way that there can be a mode implemented into the game where you can't be killed by guns whenever you feel like it. There is allways going to be gun users in every match so if you don't want to be killed by them I suggest you duel some where where you not out in the open and vulnerale to attack.


So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.
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Old 08-01-2002, 12:19 AM   #4
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Oh and I do use the saber sometimes, but I think FFA saber duels suck. I go to duel servers for that. I have Elite Force which is a good gun game but you can't force jump while blasting someone with a gun in that game. You also don't get to use cool Star Wars weapons like the Stormtrooper rifle and bowcaster.
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Old 08-01-2002, 01:18 AM   #5
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exactly....

I don't understand why people like FFA duels better...
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Old 08-01-2002, 02:10 AM   #6
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Becuase in duels they die and have to wait all day to play again.
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Old 08-01-2002, 03:42 AM   #7
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Yeah, Cedrin is right. On duel servers, you wait to fight more often then you fight.

I like to saber battle on ffa servers. It's fun, and you also have the chance to fight against more then one person at once. That's a real challenge. But I expect a fight to get broken up when someone rolls by with a Golans Arms. Because I am fighting on a ffa guns server. I expect someone other then the person I am facing to kill me, because I am fighting on a ffa guns server. Just in case you didn't notice, to win on a ffa guns server you have to have the highest score, and the highest score is the most kills. Why would you pass up a kill, and a score, just because someone is tooling around with a saber?

Of course you could say to yourself, "Self, I will not take this easy shot for a kill that would add to my point tally and possibly make me win this ffa match. Self, I will not infringe on this persons saber fight, I would rather lose those points so this person can partake in a one-on-one saber fight. Self, I will ignore the fact that this person could do the same exact thing on a Duel server, a game mode made specifically for one-on-one duels. Self, I will disregard the reality that this person may win the duel, and by doing so gain ground or overtake my score in this ffa match. Self, we should really stop talking to ourselves in a lame attempt to explain the obvious to a third party."


If I play chess, I don't make a point of trying to take all my opponents pawns with my bishop, and get upset when my opponent bangs my king with the rook. Because that isn't the point of the game. The point is to win.


Edit because vB code is hard.
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Old 08-01-2002, 05:37 AM   #8
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"Yeah, Cedrin is right. On duel servers, you wait to fight more often then you fight. "

That is correct if you're not a good dueler, if you are you'll play 80% of the time. I didn't play a single ffa for a month, just duels. Now yesterday I tried it and easy it was really easy winning (saber only)...It seemed like the only move they knew was dfa, and my lunges could own

It's much more challenging to duel where you're one on one. Playing everone against each other is much more random and the most skilled doesn't neccesarily survive a dfa in his back when his focus is on another fighter.

Something that would be cool though would be duels where you REALLY faced two opponents and they were allied. It would take skill managing to keep an eye on both of'em.
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Old 08-01-2002, 06:10 AM   #9
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Two on one fights would rock! Very rarely do I get that in a ffa, where two people will fight against me exclusively. Mostly it's just three people fighting each other, at times two against one to take advantage and eliminate a foe. But sometimes, I interrupt a fight between two people who know each other, and they both turn on me so they can kill me and get on with their fight! Those are some of the best fights I've had, but unfortunately for me, those two people who know each other usually know how each other fights, and whomp my ass in tandem pretty good.

It's like in the SP mode, the last fight before Desann, against the two Shadow Troopers. I thought that was the coolest saber battle in the whole game. Much better than two Reborn, but not near as good as two humans.
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Old 08-01-2002, 08:24 AM   #10
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To get this back on subject....

...if I join a FFA, dont expect me to pass by a crowd of sabre-users without shoving a rocket or two in their faces.

As already stated, its a FFA for god's sake, and points win. Especially now that in 1.04, it takes ages to kill using your sabre.....oh how I loved the pull/backsweep.....


Likewise, If I do feel the need to pull out my sabre on someone (oooh-er), I'll be watching for the pretender-in-my-shoes sneaking up on me with some fiery balls of destruction.

Ok, too many double-entendres now, Im signing out.
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Old 08-01-2002, 08:44 AM   #11
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Thumbs up Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but...

If you don't want to play in a duel server, and you want to have a saber fight, then your best bet is the LIGHTSABER CHALLENGE OPTION.

If you're going on about honor and skill (in the same sentence) then one on one sabers is the only way to go. Everything else and you run the risk of catching somebody off guard, or not at full health, or hitting them in the back, camping, etc. All of that stuff (in a FFA) is fine by me, but I know it pisses some people off, because it's more chaotic. This way, nobody has room to complain.

That way, people who aren't involved in the duel can't hurt you. So pick a quiet spot on the map, challenge, and duel without fear of interferance. If the server doesn't have the option, find one that does. Problem solved!

Incidentally, I agree that the tactic of killing people while they're 'dueling' is annoying when it happens to you, but it's actually quite funny (and useful) when it happens in something like CTF.

In conclusion, if you want all the options (sabers, guns, explosives, full force) and want to duel, you'll have to get used to getting killed by stray shots or people who don't want to play that way (or you'll just have to kick a lot of people). Hard to have it both ways, unless you make a mod or something. Finally, let me add that playing Quake/2/3 or Soldier of Fortune isn't at all like playing JK2 with only guns, because after all, those games don't have The Force.
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Old 08-01-2002, 01:24 PM   #12
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idiot...

Being sniped by people when youre dueling?! What is the world coming to, honestly! It means that you might just have to - yeah thats right - INVEST POINTS IN SEEING!!!!!!!!! Shock horror!!!


This is your captain speaking, we have just hit a brief patch of insanity and should be fine in a few moments. Untill then, everyone fasten your seatbelts and please remain calm.

"We can't stop here, this is Bat country!"

"Time to die everyone"
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Old 08-01-2002, 02:34 PM   #13
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Bird of Prey you want to use guns but other players not to use them when its at your inconvenience. You think that just because you have a sabre out nobody should shoot at you. Thats a little conceited. If I'm in a guns FFA or CTF I run around with my heavy repeater or golan arms and blast people off ledges. If I am out of ammo and there is none around I pull away my enemies guns. Ammo restocked. If I see two guys going at it with sabres I'll blast them off the map.

Also if you don't like challenging becuase you can't use force or get health then you really don't know your skill. Any "Johnny who just bought the game and is on a 56k" can run and get health in the middle of a fight.


Technology doesn't get better, it only gets smaller.

You are so off my buddy list.
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Old 08-01-2002, 03:06 PM   #14
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Just curious, if the saber challenge is on, can you still get fragged while dueling? I haven't played on a lot of FFA servers (preference is Duel and CTF) so, I'm not sure. I like Duel's and if I want to Duel, I go to a Duel server. If I want to fragg people, I go to a FFA server. You can't expect everyone to respect the fact that you are dueling.
Most people are going to get an easy kill regardless of what you are doing.



My 2 cents, for what its worth...


Peace


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Old 08-01-2002, 04:58 PM   #15
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If you're in a saber challenge ALL other forms of damage (including map feature damage , other players weapons, etc.) except fall damage and hits from the other dueler do not hurt you.

BTW cool avatar.


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Old 08-01-2002, 05:11 PM   #16
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Thanks

when I saw it, had to get it!

Thanks for the answer, so then, if people want to duel on a FFA or CTF server, then make sure it has saber challenge on, and don't get mad when someone comes along and frags ur arse.

Peace


The BBC would like 'to announce that the next scene is not considered suitable for family viewing. It contains scenes of violence, involving people's heads and arms getting chopped off, their ears nailed to trees, and their toenails pulled out in slow motion. There are also scenes of naked women with floppy breasts, and also at one point you can see a pair of buttocks and there's another bit where I'll swear you can see everything, but my friend says it's just the way he's holding the spear. Because of the unsuitability of the scene, the BBC will be replacing it with a scene from a repeat of 'Gardening Club' for I958
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Old 08-01-2002, 08:31 PM   #17
teutonicknight
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Um.., Its a FFA If you don't like guns, go into a Saber Only server. That simple.



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2003: Year of The Matrix!
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Old 08-01-2002, 09:58 PM   #18
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but he said he didnt like FFA sabers only. My recomendation is going to a map, where u dont get this problems (deathstar, imperial something etc) there are plenty of maps where u cant be snipe


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Old 08-01-2002, 11:10 PM   #19
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"That is the true test of skill and is very exciting. "

no it isn't. Duels w/no force powers are...


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Old 08-02-2002, 02:23 AM   #20
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Unhappy

You all have valid points but I was not talkining about a true Duel challenge, I was talking about a group of people fighting with sabers in an open area like the arena on the Deathstar map.

When I first started playing this game, there was an unwritten code of honor. Two things were paramount:

1) You didn't kill anyone in chat mode or with a screen above their head.

2) You didn't fire rockets, guns, or pulse weapons, into two, or more, people fighting with sabers. It didn't matter if they were in Duel mode or not. If you wanted to rack up some kills you either jumped in with your saber or you waited until the battle was over and either sabered, or blasted, the survivor(s).

I guess I was wrong to post this and I need to accept the fact that the honor is gone. So, I will kill those in a saber meelee, or in chat mode, just like the rest.


DAMNIT! I'm not a nOOb, in the scope of things I'm as old as Yoda so my reflexes are a bit slower!

I'm so old that I was typing basic commands into my Atari 800 while most of you young whippersnappers weren't even a sparkle in your Daddy's eyes!! LOL!
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Old 08-02-2002, 08:49 AM   #21
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Honour???

Honour??

Jesus Christ! Its a computer game Like stated, its a FFA. Which means you are ALL FREE FOR me to kill, and any way I choose.

You'll see me under the ID of AB_Swing.....
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Old 08-02-2002, 09:50 AM   #22
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I guess I was wrong to post this and I need to accept the fact that the honor is gone. So, I will kill those in a saber meelee, or in chat mode, just like the rest.

Uh...yeah.

I think you qualify as a "scrub".

www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm


Playing to win is the most important and most widely misunderstood concept in all of competitive games. The sad irony is that those who do not already understand the implications I’m about to spell out will probably not believe them to be true at all. In fact, if I were to send this article back in time to my earlier self, even I would not believe it. Apparently, these concepts are something one must come to learn through experience, though I hope at least some of you will take my word for it.

Introducing...the Scrub

In the world of Street Fighter competition, we have a word for players who aren’t good: “scrub.” Now, everyone begins as a scrub—it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game before he’s chosen his character. He’s lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win.

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” So-called “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.

You’re not going to see a classic scrub throw his opponent 5 times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimize his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you…that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you sit in block for 50 seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap.

Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.

A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he’s again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic. (See my article on Yomi layer 3 for much more on that.)

Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the “cheap stuff” and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

Let’s return to the group of scrubs. They don’t know the first thing about all the depth I’ve been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more “fun.” Superficially, their argument does at least look true, since often their games will be more “wet and wild” than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of fun on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his ever move, even his every counter.

Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they’ve either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the scrubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.

The scrub has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about “skill” and how he has skill whereas other players—very much including the ones who beat him flat out—do not have skill. The confusion here is what “skill” actually is. In Street Fighter, scrubs often cling to combos as a measure of skill. A combo is sequence of moves that are unblockable if the first move hits. Combos can be very elaborate and very difficult to pull off. But single moves can also take “skill,” according to the scrub. The “dragon punch” or “uppercut” in Street Fighter is performed by holding the joystick toward the opponent, then down, then diagonally down and toward as the player presses a punch button. This movement must be completed within a fraction of a second, and though there is leeway, it must be executed fairly accurately. Ask any scrub and they will tell you that a dragon punch is a “skill move.” Just last week I played a scrub who was actually quite good. That is, he knew the rules of the game well, he knew the character matchups well, and he knew what to do in most situations. But his web of mental rules kept him from truly playing to win. He cried cheap as I beat him with “no skill moves” while he performed many difficult dragon punches. He cried cheap when I threw him 5 times in a row asking, “is that all you know how to do? throw?” I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, “Play to win, not to do ‘difficult moves.’” This was a big moment in that scrub’s life. He could either write his losses off and continue living in his mental prison, or analyze why he lost, shed his rules, and reach the next level of play.

I’ve never been to a tournament where there was a prize for the winner and another prize for the player who did many difficult moves. I’ve also never seen a prize for a player who played “in an innovative way.” Many scrubs have strong ties to “innovation.” They say “that guy didn’t do anything new, so he is no good.” Or “person x invented that technique and person y just stole it.” Well, person y might be 100 times better than person x, but that doesn’t seem to matter. When person y wins the tournament and person x is a forgotten footnote, what will the scrub say? That person y has “no skill” of course.



There's more to the article, you'll have to take the link and read it yourself


I'm not good enough to have a sig-line.
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Old 08-02-2002, 12:44 PM   #23
teutonicknight
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bird Of Prey!
You all have valid points but I was not talkining about a true Duel challenge, I was talking about a group of people fighting with sabers in an open area like the arena on the Deathstar map.

When I first started playing this game, there was an unwritten code of honor. Two things were paramount:

1) You didn't kill anyone in chat mode or with a screen above their head.

2) You didn't fire rockets, guns, or pulse weapons, into two, or more, people fighting with sabers. It didn't matter if they were in Duel mode or not. If you wanted to rack up some kills you either jumped in with your saber or you waited until the battle was over and either sabered, or blasted, the survivor(s).

I guess I was wrong to post this and I need to accept the fact that the honor is gone. So, I will kill those in a saber meelee, or in chat mode, just like the rest.
Well, you can't kill people in private duels anyway, and two: It's a Free for All!!!!!! Not a "Lets sit around saber fighting and not kill each other when we get the chance becasue we don't like guns". It's not that hard to understand right?...

Thats a good article RahnDelSol !



"Unfortunatly, no one can be told what The Matrix is... you have top see it for yourself."

2003: Year of The Matrix!
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Old 08-02-2002, 04:15 PM   #24
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Hmm, you seem to have shot yourself in the foot rather here (pun intended).

Quote:
You didn't fire rockets, guns, or pulse weapons, into two, or more, people fighting with sabers. It didn't matter if they were in Duel mode or not. If you wanted to rack up some kills you either jumped in with your saber or you waited until the battle was over and either sabered, or blasted, the survivor(s).
Okay, so you don't like folks breaking up a saber melee by hammering its participants with guns, yet charging in afterwards when said participants are low on health and polishing them off actually forms part of your "code of honour"? Doesn't quite add up somehow, does it?


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Old 08-02-2002, 05:31 PM   #25
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Just activate saber only.....its not that hard
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Old 08-02-2002, 08:12 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pada-Wan
"That is the true test of skill and is very exciting. "

no it isn't. Duels w/no force powers are...
Step in, side swing, crouch, step out.
Repeat X times.
ZZZZZ....



FF duels =
1) More key bindings, hence faster dexterity required.

2) Faster reactions required due to far more possible forms of attack than standard saber swings and 3 special moves.

3) Knowledge of not only saber combat but Force usage, both offensive and defensive is required.
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