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Old 08-15-2002, 05:16 PM   #161
Deadeye
 
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Question Could someone please explain blocking mechanics?

Im a bit confused as to how blocking worked in each of the patches and how it works in ProMod. As I understand it, the game autoblocks when you don't swing the saber. I don't know if it blocks EVERY attack (DFA, etc), but that's how you block.

In 1.02, did the sabers clip through each other when both players swung? -I don't remember. I don't like that idea. -not very realistic.

In 1.03, they bumped up the autoblocking right? I like that b/c you had these really cool swing fests that were like the movies. Now I realize that's not the best thing for competitive online players, and doesn't really reflect much skill. It just felt really cool to do that. Then there was the Ghoul2 detection. -I loved that. Again I think it was more autoblocking right?

Did they always have poly-to-poly collision detection for the sabers? I think that's what made the Ghoul2 settings so cool. If you took a swing, and your oppenent took a swing, and the sabers crossed each others' paths, they collided, and depending on the stance of each player, a block, deflection, or parry ensued. Is that right? I think this is what brought about all that complaining about not needing skill to play anymore. I still think it was more realistic. What is a sword fight if not to try your best to strike your oppenent, while also trying to keep from being struck. If my oppenent swings at me. I would intuitively swing back, to block the strike. I liked how your oppenent would meet your strikes with block after block, no matter what direction you swung from, until you hit that opening and bam! you score a hit. I thought that's what made 1.03, G2, and 1.04 so good.

Now there's pro mod, where blocking is absolutely garaunteed, provided you are facing your enemy correctly, i.e. your CSC is small and red, right? Well that sounds cool too. It's like having an intuitive "block button" installed. Would I be correct in saying that in order to block, you essentially have to NOT swing, and be facing your oppenent correctly? If that's the case what happens when both players swing at the same time? Do the sabers clip through each other to score a hit, or do they collide and react according to chosen stance, and CSC score?
-That's my big question I guess.

I guess what I don't understand is, that you have "official blocks" that you make when you don't swing and just sort of face the enemy. Then there's the "unintentional blocks" that occur to whatever degree when both sabers are swung and meet each other. -how did that work in each of the patches, had how does it work with Promod? Also what is your opinion on each of those ideas. Is there a fight between cinematic feel, and good competitive gameplay?

I apologize for the length and sort of strange structure of this post. I just could never understand fully how the game handles blocking.

If anyone could shed some light on this, it would be immensly appreciated.


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Old 08-15-2002, 05:19 PM   #162
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Question Could someone please explain blocking mechanics?

I'm a bit confused as to how blocking worked in each of the patches and how it works in ProMod. As I understand it, the game autoblocks when you don't swing the saber. I don't know if it blocks EVERY attack (DFA, etc), but that's how you block.

In 1.02, did the sabers clip through each other when both players swung? -I don't remember. I don't like that idea. -not very realistic.

In 1.03, they bumped up the autoblocking right? I like that b/c you had these really cool swing fests that were like the movies. Now I realize that's not the best thing for competitive online players, and doesn't really reflect much skill. It just felt really cool to do that. Then there was the Ghoul2 detection. -I loved that. Again I think it was more autoblocking right?

Did they always have poly-to-poly collision detection for the sabers? I think that's what made the Ghoul2 settings so cool. If you took a swing, and your oppenent took a swing, and the sabers crossed each others' paths, they collided, and depending on the stance of each player, a block, deflection, or parry ensued. Is that right? I think this is what brought about all that complaining about not needing skill to play anymore. I still think it was more realistic. What is a sword fight if not to try your best to strike your oppenent, while also trying to keep from being struck. If my oppenent swings at me. I would intuitively swing back, to block the strike. I liked how your oppenent would meet your strikes with block after block, no matter what direction you swung from, until you hit that opening and bam! you score a hit. I thought that's what made 1.03, G2, and 1.04 so good.

Now there's pro mod, where blocking is absolutely garaunteed, provided you are facing your enemy correctly, i.e. your CSC is small and red, right? Well that sounds cool too. It's like having an intuitive "block button" installed. Would I be correct in saying that in order to block, you essentially have to NOT swing, and be facing your oppenent correctly? If that's the case what happens when both players swing at the same time? Do the sabers clip through each other to score a hit, or do they collide and react according to chosen stance, and CSC score?
-That's my big question I guess.

I guess what I don't understand is, that you have "official blocks" that you make when you don't swing and just sort of face the enemy. Then there's the "unintentional blocks" that occur to whatever degree when both sabers are swung and meet each other. -how did that work in each of the patches, had how does it work with Promod? Also what is your opinion on each of those ideas. Is there a fight between cinematic feel, and good competitive gameplay?

I apologize for the length and sort of strange structure of this post. I just could never understand fully how the game handles blocking.

If anyone could shed some light on this, it would be immensly appreciated.


Whatever is going to happen, is going to happen, when it happens, regardless of what happens.
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Old 08-15-2002, 05:31 PM   #163
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Arrow Promod tracking

63.99.213.122:28070
130.161.36.97:28070
62.20.195.154:28070
209.54.74.216:28070
134.114.32.159:28070
24.218.10.161:28071
80.0.0.44:28070

All 1.04.....
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Old 08-15-2002, 05:49 PM   #164
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Quote:
Also what is your opinion on each of those ideas. Is there a fight between cinematic feel, and good competitive gameplay?
IMO, I don't think there is. I believe it's entirely possible to have a cinematic feel AND good competitive gameplay based on skill, speed, and strategy.

Now, you'll notice that most of the more vocal posters here believe that autoblocking goes against the good competitive gameplay, but I don't believe that.

I've come up with a design doc for a Mod that includes a form of auto-blocking that will (in time with a good dose of balance testing) give the player a chance to recreate famous battles from the movies with a system designed to replicate the unique
"rules" of saber combat. But, I don't want to hijack ArtifeX's thread any longer so I'll direct you to my lightsaber combat theory thread and the Masters of the Force Thread.


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Old 08-15-2002, 06:35 PM   #165
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Heh.

Double post!

Whooohooo Congrats!




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Old 08-15-2002, 06:38 PM   #166
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[JHQ]Ayanami
[JHQ]EatMoreChicken





Yeah, those two were some of them. There was one more but I can't remember the name...I checked the site, but I really don't remember the third at all. Those two were giving the server trouble too.


Current in-game name is #include
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Old 08-15-2002, 06:55 PM   #167
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This mod just feels right... you need control now and the blocking system is really good. Keep up the good work and don't listen to requests for content like emotes etc. Keep focus on gameplay please ... I really think this mod can make saber combat really great.


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Old 08-15-2002, 07:05 PM   #168
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eatmorechicken and ayanami were both recently recruited so i will talk to both of them and killereasterbunny too


eatmorechicken is only a padawan learner accepted two days ago

ayanami was accepted about a week ago, and i will talk to her too


i will talk to them all and try to fix the problem, if not, they won't be holding the [JHQ] tag anymore


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Old 08-15-2002, 07:23 PM   #169
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I tried testing the blocking system against a bot. Blue and yellow works fine, but with red you don't really block even when the crosshair is perfectly small and red... is this intentional? Will making one tactic against red style possible... the headless chicken style... just flail at red style users until they die or until no one uses red style.


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Old 08-15-2002, 07:30 PM   #170
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Question

I'd like to somewhat second Deadeye's post (even thought he kinda already did that with the double post )

Can you only hope to block by not swinging and having a red CSC or is it possible for me to block by swinging and connecting with my opponant's swung saber while having a red CSC?
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Old 08-15-2002, 09:10 PM   #171
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Just my 2cents about Gunners and Force Powers.

Would creating 2 Class's a Jedi, which can use Sabers and Force, or a gunner class which can use guns but no saber and force. Would that balance out some issues with some of the FFA games? Obviously this option should be able to be turned off.

But anyway.

Mod Sounds Great, Excelllent work!
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Old 08-15-2002, 09:20 PM   #172
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It all depends on how you do it.


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Old 08-15-2002, 09:41 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally posted by KayTannee
Just my 2cents about Gunners and Force Powers.

Would creating 2 Class's a Jedi, which can use Sabers and Force, or a gunner class which can use guns but no saber and force. Would that balance out some issues with some of the FFA games? Obviously this option should be able to be turned off.

But anyway.

Mod Sounds Great, Excelllent work!
you don't even need a mod for that....there is a command for it (i don't know it though)

look around for servers that say jedi vrs merc or anything like that

the icon beside the name is a picture of a gun and a saber with the letters vrs


its quite fun playing jedi vrs merc

choose jedi:
force powers, lightsaber...no healing packs or bacta...shields can be picked up

choose mercenary
guns, stun baton, healing packs, bacta, and shields all available but no force powers which makes you easy to push off a ledge or saber throw, etc


still great fun though


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Old 08-16-2002, 12:11 AM   #174
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hmm needs some tweaking ,i stood there and look at another dead on full health and two yellow strike from him killed me.
now it should have blocked it but it didnt.plus the hit box looks screwy i get hit when a saber clearly dosnt even come close to me.it cant be lagg i get low pings on beta server.
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Old 08-16-2002, 12:25 AM   #175
razorace
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you don't even need a mod for that....there is a command for it (i don't know it though)
I just checked that out and the command is g_jedivsmerc 1.


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Old 08-16-2002, 08:33 AM   #176
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Re: Could someone please explain blocking mechanics?

Quote:
Originally posted by Deadeye
Im a bit confused as to how blocking worked in each of the patches and how it works in ProMod. As I understand it, the game autoblocks when you don't swing the saber. I don't know if it blocks EVERY attack (DFA, etc), but that's how you block.
...
Blocking in 1.03 and 1.04 happens whenever you're not swinging your saber and you have your opponent somewhere in your front-facing 180-degree view. Either your sabers just happen to hit each other, or you autoblock, simple as that.

In ProMod, if your and your opponent's saber come into contact, both players CSC's are tested, and a resulting effect is determined, either a block, deflect, knockaway or defense breaker depending on how the two values are compared. If one player's saber slips past the other's defenses, then CSC's are likewise checked for whether the defender has a value high enough to block the attack.

In either case, the higher CSC wins, though the defender always has a slight (very slight) advantage to their CSC to make blocking slightly easier.

A good general principle would be if you're attacking, try not to hit your opponent's saber when you swing. If you're defending, try to use Light or Medium stances which place your saber out in front of your body like a shield.


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Old 08-16-2002, 08:33 AM   #177
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Re: Promod tracking

Thanks for posting these Saber!

Quote:
Originally posted by Sabre9
63.99.213.122:28070
130.161.36.97:28070
62.20.195.154:28070
209.54.74.216:28070
134.114.32.159:28070
24.218.10.161:28071
80.0.0.44:28070

All 1.04.....


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Old 08-16-2002, 08:40 AM   #178
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don't worry, my foremost concern is improving the gameplay. I won't try to put in extras until all core components are 100% finished.

Quote:
Originally posted by Canis_Aureus
This mod just feels right... you need control now and the blocking system is really good. Keep up the good work and don't listen to requests for content like emotes etc. Keep focus on gameplay please ... I really think this mod can make saber combat really great.


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Old 08-16-2002, 08:43 AM   #179
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It's because in Strong, your saber is held back behind your body where it can't deflect incoming attacks, so you're almost completely reliant on your CSC defense skill to block for you. Your extended, ready saber is always your first line of defense.

You can actually block with the Strong saber while looking directly at your opponent, but if your opponent is looking directly at you, then you've got a serious problem...

I'll take note of this and see if this needs rebalancing.

Quote:
Originally posted by Canis_Aureus
I tried testing the blocking system against a bot. Blue and yellow works fine, but with red you don't really block even when the crosshair is perfectly small and red... is this intentional? Will making one tactic against red style possible... the headless chicken style... just flail at red style users until they die or until no one uses red style.


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Old 08-16-2002, 10:26 AM   #180
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ProMod is now up and running on the IDS Boot Camp server. I do not have the IP number offhand but it is usually at the top of the refresh lists. Server holds 16 people. Enjoy.
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Old 08-16-2002, 03:28 PM   #181
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Thanks for the heads up, Rad. I'll make sure to put up a list of all the servers running ProMod on the official site once I get a chance to work on it.


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Old 08-16-2002, 04:14 PM   #182
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Played it about 5-6 Hours continiously today. Also done many many tests with the saber combat

Here are my comment tos ArtifeX:

The Good

- The Saber Combat is awesome because the Special Moves are very risky but still useful in many cases.

- The damages are greatly balanced. Unfortunately I couldn't use the Blue Stance so much except from the Front Ludge but that's something that will change soon as players will play/practise more.

- The blocking is as it must be. All swings are completely blocken if your the enemy is facing you except from the DFA and Air Flip. The Blue Ludge is fully blocken now, Something very good because it started to be spammed lately. Air Flip and DFA should remain unblockable because they are easily countered and are very risky.

The Bad

- Except from the bugs that other players reported there is nothing bad with this awesome mod. Maybe there are some issues with the FFA/CTF/Gun games which I don't play. Since I play only duels I can't comment on these.

- We need more servers! Especially Duel ones.

- - - - - - - - - -

ArtifeX

Don't make rapid changes in the future version(s). All we need is standarized settings for saber combat that please most people and also require skill. Don't do changes like to stop the throwed saber with push. These changes seems interesting in the beginning but later they create problems. Just think of it, it would be cool to defend throws with push, but from the other side, imagine that advantage that the Gunners will get since they will simply absorb and throwed saber with one key/button.

Also don't give us the ability to change so many things. I don't know if it is possible but you should try to prevent people/servers from changing damage scale, ghoul2, sabertracesaberfirst and much more because there will be splits of the community again.

We want standart settings for everyone that plays this mod.

Congrats, this mod is the FIRST serious mod that finally tries to balance the game.

Other mods tried it (JK2++) but completely failed.

Ending it.. Don't do any joke and include duel sabers and these shi-t that noobs want to have fun. This mod is for Professionals as you said. Don't rely only on the community, you know that will happen if you rely completely on them....
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Old 08-16-2002, 06:12 PM   #183
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This mod is for Professionals as you said
professionals? we play games! how the hell can we be professionals!


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Old 08-16-2002, 06:13 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX
Thanks for the heads up, Rad. I'll make sure to put up a list of all the servers running ProMod on the official site once I get a chance to work on it.
i'd help you make the official site but i'm a little tied up with two sites of my own right now (warcraft 3 and jedi headquarters)

http://jkhq.ath.cx


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Old 08-16-2002, 06:22 PM   #185
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professionals? we play games! how the hell can we be professionals!
Ask the CAL/CPL on that one...
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Old 08-16-2002, 06:41 PM   #186
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Ask the CAL/CPL on that one...
They're still too new to the game. You can't just live playing game professionally yet.


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Old 08-16-2002, 08:28 PM   #187
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omg ProMod

Pro = Professional
Mod = Modification
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Old 08-16-2002, 08:34 PM   #188
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dude...i was just joking.....


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Old 08-16-2002, 08:42 PM   #189
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Artifex,

I like this mod very much...at last saber fighting is as it should be.
This whole system is great!

I just played it with bots and tested the blocking system. My question is, that you technically block, but you don't use the blocking animations at all. I stood there with light stance and blocked all incoming attacks (technically), but I didn't see any blocking animations as you can see in SP. My question is, can you make the MP game actually use the SP blocking animations when you block attacks? That would be great...

Keep up the good work...
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Old 08-16-2002, 10:30 PM   #190
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I have only been playing this mod for an hour now, and I have to say it rocks. Wonderful feel, and the CSC reticle is a neat addition. Muchos kudos to Artifex for this; rather than whining, he did something.
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Old 08-16-2002, 11:01 PM   #191
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no change to tactics?

So, basically, we don't really have to change our saber tactics to much, we just have to aim better, right?

Another question. What is the difference, between a Block, Deflect (same as parry?), and knockaway. I'm not looking for definitions of the term, I'd like to know what happens in-game when each of those things happen. Who has the advantage in each of those situations?


I second the blocking animation request.
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Old 08-16-2002, 11:38 PM   #192
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Question

Artifex

I'm running your mod on my server and I was wondering, is the mod a server side mod or do my clients need to have it to?

The reason I ask is, I would like to extract the pk3 like you can with Vulcan Adminmod so my clients don't have to download it when they connect.

Is this possible with your mod?
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Old 08-17-2002, 04:23 AM   #193
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It is Server-Client and it MUST remain in this state. Server-Side Mods create problems with the movements.

You can however download it if the server has autodownload-on (I think).

Mod Rock. Plz guys make as more servers as possible.
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Old 08-17-2002, 05:44 AM   #194
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Lemme ask the n00bish-question of the day:

How do you host a ProMod game?

I know how to host a "normal" 1.04 game, and all the other (admin/jedi-) mods can be chosen from the list...except Promod...?!

I have tried it out on another server so, yes, it should be "installed" correctly.

Still, it won't show up on the mods-list.


Got Honourz? Great.. I hope you choke on it!

I r0xx0r all j00 nooberz that mess with me. You nooberz suXor out of my way or I eat j00....

Most ridiculous Quote of the century: >)O(< ENmiTy: promoting mindless FFA and SD kills promotes disorderly conduct amoung the online community.
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Old 08-17-2002, 07:38 AM   #195
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ProMod should be showing up on your mod list. However, whenever I start a MP practice server, ProMod is usually loaded by default... I guess my CPU likes it.
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Old 08-17-2002, 09:49 AM   #196
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All I got is Jedi Mod, Jedi Plus and Adminmod...

There should be a "Promod" there, right?

Oh pleasehelpmeguysohpleasepleaseplease.. ???


Got Honourz? Great.. I hope you choke on it!

I r0xx0r all j00 nooberz that mess with me. You nooberz suXor out of my way or I eat j00....

Most ridiculous Quote of the century: >)O(< ENmiTy: promoting mindless FFA and SD kills promotes disorderly conduct amoung the online community.
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Old 08-17-2002, 09:49 AM   #197
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Quote:
You can however download it if the server has autodownload-on (I think).
That's the problem, I don't want them having to download it. I run mostly custom maps and I don't want them having to download both the mod and the maps. As it is most people don't wait for the maps. And I don't want to disable auto download because of the maps.

Besides, I really only want people joining who already have the mod and actually have read the readme. I getting tired of newbies who are saying that the only difference they can see is a new crosshair and then bitching when they die or take damage they wouldn't of had in the typical game. It's ridiculas trying to explain such a complex mod to them. I love how people join modded servers and have no clue what the mod does.

It doesn't bother me that a newbie joins my server provided they listen and most are good about it, but of course there are the ones who don't and then bad mouth the mod or the server. As much as I'd like to be in my server all the time, I can't, I do have a life outside the computer.

Quote:
Server-Side Mods create problems with the movements.
Like what? I haven't noticed anything like this, so can you please clarify.

I'm sorry, this has become somewhat of a rant, so I'll stop here.
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Old 08-17-2002, 10:24 AM   #198
keo718
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Excellent mod. I hate it when bums just hack away and actually win duels. My only question, can the second crosshair be toggled on or off? If not can that option be added to the next version? Its a good practice tool, but when in multiplayer it adds an unfair balance. More experience saberists know instinctively how to pick their shots, while newbies would simply rely on the crosshair.


"Do or do not. There is no try."

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Old 08-17-2002, 11:48 AM   #199
Agen
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I always goto jah warriors server and my views will probably reflect his.

Most of the things he said i'd prob agreew ith cos i palyed it with him alot.
The default damage is a bit too high i think and you end up with real sohrt matches and lucky kills.
I like the colour thing abotu the damage and stuff, quite neat but i think it's reinvented that prob in 1.02 where you could slah right across them and it cna go thorugh them if you are very clsoe to them.

Soemtiems when you block it doesn't show an animation

Alot of the ityme when the action gets close sometiems the otehr guy dies form the you hit but quickly jsut go the other direction, liek the double yellow slashes but its too pwoerful and will kill osmeone with full health. It seems it goes behind the defense and they can't block.

Just pointing a few things out there. otherwise it's pretty cool. I leik how thw blue spammer cna jsut charge in, he'll get his ass handed to him

Overall it's a good mod with a few flaws ubt it's in beta
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Old 08-17-2002, 11:59 AM   #200
ArtifeX
 
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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Nicely written feedback, Greek. Thanks for that.

I'm completely on top of the bug list right now. Once the reports start to fall off, i'll release a beta 2 that will include all the bug fixes and probably a bit of the new features (depending on how earth-shattering the bugs are).

I can already tell you that the Push and Saber Throw thing will be well balanced with guns. I've got a very, very evil solution to many of the Guns vs. Sabers gripes.

Quote:
Originally posted by GrEEk_OuTcAsT
Played it about 5-6 Hours continiously today. Also done many many tests with the saber combat

Here are my comment tos ArtifeX:

The Good

- The Saber Combat is awesome because the Special Moves are very risky but still useful in many cases.

- The damages are greatly balanced. Unfortunately I couldn't use the Blue Stance so much except from the Front Ludge but that's something that will change soon as players will play/practise more.

- The blocking is as it must be. All swings are completely blocken if your the enemy is facing you except from the DFA and Air Flip. The Blue Ludge is fully blocken now, Something very good because it started to be spammed lately. Air Flip and DFA should remain unblockable because they are easily countered and are very risky.

The Bad

- Except from the bugs that other players reported there is nothing bad with this awesome mod. Maybe there are some issues with the FFA/CTF/Gun games which I don't play. Since I play only duels I can't comment on these.

- We need more servers! Especially Duel ones.

- - - - - - - - - -

ArtifeX

Don't make rapid changes in the future version(s). All we need is standarized settings for saber combat that please most people and also require skill. Don't do changes like to stop the throwed saber with push. These changes seems interesting in the beginning but later they create problems. Just think of it, it would be cool to defend throws with push, but from the other side, imagine that advantage that the Gunners will get since they will simply absorb and throwed saber with one key/button.

Also don't give us the ability to change so many things. I don't know if it is possible but you should try to prevent people/servers from changing damage scale, ghoul2, sabertracesaberfirst and much more because there will be splits of the community again.

We want standart settings for everyone that plays this mod.

Congrats, this mod is the FIRST serious mod that finally tries to balance the game.

Other mods tried it (JK2++) but completely failed.

Ending it.. Don't do any joke and include duel sabers and these shi-t that noobs want to have fun. This mod is for Professionals as you said. Don't rely only on the community, you know that will happen if you rely completely on them....


Artifex *ASC*
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