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Old 08-29-2002, 05:37 PM   #41
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Unhappy well...

well, first off the thing that generally sustains the life of an online shooter after the first few "ooh ahh" months is the competetion. my definition of a game being "alive" are online clans/leagues/ladders, and since JK2 is really competitively inferior (which saddens me more than anything) do to a number of things, the game just doesnt have that big of a following. so disappointing too, JK1 was like a very competitive scene, and now this crap. well, my 2 cents.

PS, the first sign a game really IS dying, is a "hey this game isnt dying!" series of posts


^^^the above post is likely off topic^^^

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Old 08-29-2002, 07:24 PM   #42
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nah, the first sign is when the main forum for the game is quiet.


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Old 08-29-2002, 08:20 PM   #43
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Unhappy JK2 is not dying

All these posts about JK2 dying are foolish statements, that are more like propaganda to destroy JK2. All they are likely to do is decrease peoples morale. I play in the Deus Ex Multiplayer Community that was never even all that big to start with, but it is a lot worse now. It is so small that it is near collapse. There are only about 12 stable clans left, and 30 veterans playing on a regular basis. There are few servers, with a ping of 300 being acceptable to most players. Because Deus Ex was not released with a Multiplayer patch until the game of the year edition came out it never had a fan base on this scale. You are most certainly mistaken if you think JK2 is anywhere near collapse. DX never even had this many people to start with so I suggest you rethink your ideas. The community is what you make it, and you have a lot more advantages than many communties. DX certainly still has an excellent community spirit, and we only have one coder left too.
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Old 08-29-2002, 09:12 PM   #44
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I agree nearly as of current I"m counting 882 JK2 servers worldwide. Comparetively Star Trek Elite Force only has some 100 - 150 servers if even that anymore, and still many clans and players playing...


Far from dead... far from dead....
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Old 08-29-2002, 09:46 PM   #45
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Quote:
PS, the first sign a game really IS dying, is a "hey this game isnt dying!" series of posts
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Old 08-29-2002, 10:11 PM   #46
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Guys, we've hit that time when the original game has been played to death and ppl are expecting more and finding nothing.

But don't be so sure!

There are quite a lot of mods in hard development out there that will certainly extend the jk2 community for at least another year, I'm sure of it. Don't base your judgements on mods like JediMod or Promod that have some neat feature and then release the mod which has no chance of a real long life like Counter-Strike.

Be Patient, but don't give up on the game just yet!


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Old 08-29-2002, 10:19 PM   #47
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Yeah, JKII ain't dieing. Heck, this game ain't even a year old yet lol.


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Old 08-29-2002, 11:15 PM   #48
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Well it's dying a bit, less and less servers and all. But when the UBER mods come out and Episode III, that'll be JKII's resurrection...........


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Old 09-01-2002, 07:48 PM   #49
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Well, people DO need TIME to make mods. If you think that perhaps 5% of the JK2 community makes mods that they plan to one day release (a generous estimate I'm sure) then perhaps they all are on similar schedules (hypothetical) it takes them a few days and they release a simple mod. Then you have nothing for awhile, and then they try something bigger, which takes a few weeks. Then they release that.

A lot of projects are so optimistic and huge they never get done, but usually those are dead in the water before a whole lot is accomplished. You know what I mean, the huge TC's that plan to change everything about the game and be packed with levels, and spend months getting a team together and releasing a few skins. That's okay, its how people learn from their mistakes.

But the point is that you can't expect mods to be released every single day, each better than the last. If you just mean skins, sure, in theory somebody could make a new skin every day. Or a small level. But good mods take TIME which means you have to wait, unless you're the one making the mod.

Again, doesn't mean the community is dying off. JK didn't see any major Conversions/Mods for a long time. Release was very sporadic. Much of the really amazing stuff was released YEARS later, after people had finally become comfortable with the engine.
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Old 09-01-2002, 07:55 PM   #50
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Old 09-01-2002, 07:57 PM   #51
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Thumbs down

Saying that the game is dying is one of two things coming out:

1) A person's desire to make other people quit the game because they quit, for whatever reason (they got bored for example).

2) People getting panicky because they play during down-time or on holidays and don't see millions of servers full of players.

Probably #1 more often than not. They forget that while they might be sick of the game, others are completely happy with it and others are just discovering it for the first time.

As for #2, when 1.04 patch came out, it was spelled out that 1.04 would ONLY detect other 1.04 servers in its built in browser. So thousands of 1.02 and 1.03 games were ignored. So people freaked out and assumed the game was dying. Some people still play those older versions and you wouldn't know from just looking at your in-game browser.

Anyhow, if JK2 stops being #1 (or in the top 10 of games) who cares? That doesn't stop you from enjoying it. And you can always use bots to fill out your games if real players ever get scarce in the future. That's the beauty of it....

Single Player can't last forever and people do move on to other games if they get bored. That's why editing (which is just starting to take off) can help extend people's enjoyment of the game. But not everyone is aware of where to get good mods, and may have given up on the game already. But it's their loss... just enjoy what you have. ; )


So yes, technically if there is one less server every day than before, you could say it's "dying" but if a week later you have ten more extra servers, what does that mean? It's dynamic, not linear...


There could be a lot of reasons for "shortages" of servers. Perhaps people are on vacation or working and can't afford to spend time and money putting up servers like they can at other times of the year. Who knows. But people ARE still playing, and modding, so that's all that really matters to most of us.
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Old 09-02-2002, 08:55 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Saying that the game is dying is one of two things coming out:

1) A person's desire to make other people quit the game because they quit, for whatever reason (they got bored for example).

2) People getting panicky because they play during down-time or on holidays and don't see millions of servers full of players.
Not the case with me. I still play the game, usually daily for an hour or so. I'm not bored with it. I spawned this thread just to get the general concensus, as jkii.net hadn't updated in a week.


Quote:
As for #2, when 1.04 patch came out, it was spelled out that 1.04 would ONLY detect other 1.04 servers in its built in browser. So thousands of 1.02 and 1.03 games were ignored. So people freaked out and assumed the game was dying. Some people still play those older versions and you wouldn't know from just looking at your in-game browser.
Also not the case. I'm up to date on patches, though I rarely play online at home due to speed restrcitions.

Quote:
Anyhow, if JK2 stops being #1 (or in the top 10 of games) who cares? That doesn't stop you from enjoying it. And you can always use bots to fill out your games if real players ever get scarce in the future. That's the beauty of it....
Bots are only so difficult. It's not that hard to learn their moves and paths. There's a certain inpredictability about human players.

I never cared about JK2's status in the chart. People who like will play it constantly no doubt but a point arises when you can only play so much of the same thing, which is where mods come in. The fact that the game changed majorly twice with official patches didn't help. I liked 1.03 but I really believe 1.04 is a step down from it. I don't let it bother me or affect my game, as I have JediMod though this is far from perfect. New mods are needed to increase the lifespan of the game. Fact. Look at Quake3/Half Life and see how the various mods have extended the lifespan of those games majorly.

Quote:
Single Player can't last forever and people do move on to other games if they get bored. That's why editing (which is just starting to take off) can help extend people's enjoyment of the game. But not everyone is aware of where to get good mods, and may have given up on the game already. But it's their loss... just enjoy what you have. ; )
I agree. But eventually people will get bored with what they have. It's human nature. You want something new, not something old, even though it's still in perfect working order. If editing is only taking off now, it'll be a bright future as the current editing standard has been high.


Quote:
So yes, technically if there is one less server every day than before, you could say it's "dying" but if a week later you have ten more extra servers, what does that mean? It's dynamic, not linear...
Like I said, I was basing it on editing activity not servers. There are plenty of servers out there.




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Old 09-02-2002, 05:49 PM   #53
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"new" Feature

ASk has discovered a hidden feature in the JK2 code. We believe we've figured out the syntax and will be releasing the information shortly. As such, we could really use a experience mapper for testing purposes.

You can't really call a game "dead" when all the built-in features haven't been explored.

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Old 09-03-2002, 06:49 AM   #54
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theres a difference between dying and dead.
a dead game means theres a limitted gaming community with no future and is played only sporatically

a dying game is not dead, its merely fading. people still play it often, there are hardcore gamers that play it continuously, there are still newbies joining....BUT the TOTAL community of that game is decreasing... and this IS the case in Jk2.

one cannot deny that there are less people playing now than say 3-4 months ago. the number of ppl playing may increase due 2 certain patches or mods but that number would not reach the size of 1.02 - early 1.03 size. the number of servers have decreased ( i wont say dramatically), and the gap between serious gamers(like many who visit forums like this) and amateur( people who just play for fun) have increased

i certainly do not wish jk2 to die, but the undeniable fact is that its gaming community is shrinking (due to other new games like war3 etc, and because of the length of time since its release). ppl will continue to play jk2 still for quite a while and i certainly hope for a expansion pack or sequal to boost this community again!
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Old 09-03-2002, 07:33 AM   #55
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Expansion Pack

I agree. An expansion pack is really what this game needs. Some new environments and maybe even offical Raven-Approved versions of JediMod and/or ProMod. There are a number of niggling bugs in each program that Raven could iron out with the full source and their JK2 team.


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Old 09-03-2002, 03:09 PM   #56
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The amount of programming/legal effort would be expensive for Raven to add jedimod as a official patch. They're much more likely to just make an expansion patch.


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Old 09-03-2002, 03:34 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
The amount of programming/legal effort would be expensive for Raven to add jedimod as a official patch. They're much more likely to just make an expansion patch.
I agree, in fact they may even have worries of using ideas that people have already made in Mods since they may be intellectual property of the Mod designer. Who knows.

I find it hard to believe that Raven will do anymore with this game and I am not sure that is a bad thing considering the past changes they've made.

JKII is not dead and will most likely live for a long time because of Mods suchs as ProMod, jk++, and JediMod. As long as we have creative and talented individuals out there sharing their ideas so that Mod makers can see what people want, I think JKII has some life in her yet!

Please do not ask raven for anymore Nerf's. On the off chance that we can get Raven to do something else for this game, lets see if we can get them to remove some of the overly nerfed strats and add some new things to the game. If you ask for something to be "fixed" you will be doing great harm to this community.

When asking for changes made to the game please think-

How can I make this game better for everyone

and not..

I hate this <insert move here> I want it weakened immediately!!

This game should have enough effective attacking and defending techniques that every player can use his own imagination to create an attacking/defending scheme that is effective. At the moment we have very few effective strats due to a very limited number of effective attacks. Please remember that this game is not made for YOU, it is made for all of us. it is not fair for anyone to say my style should not be allowed. You play your way, I will play mine, we all paid for this game and thus should all be allowed the freedom to play as our creativity leads us.

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Old 09-03-2002, 06:56 PM   #58
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If you keep talking like JK2 is dying that your dooming it even more! Remember the first things you lose in war is morral and truth.
If you lose morral you won't fight as hard and if you lose truth you won't know which of the facts are true. In WWII Japan tried to demorralize our troops by radio stations. They would have this lady with a beutiful voice come on and say stuff that wouldn't insult them, but it would have an effect on them.


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Old 09-04-2002, 05:45 AM   #59
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Just download and try ProMod.


Or enable autodownload and join one of my servers.


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Old 09-04-2002, 08:24 AM   #60
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Wow, my first post here...

Quote:
So? As long as there's a hardcore fanbase the game won't "die" until JK3 comes out.
Ditto this. I just started playing the game and I see this thread...

I religiously played the same game for almost two years...Wheel of Time. At it's peak, there were probably no more than 10-15 arena servers and 8-10 citadel servers. This was right after the game came out. It was announced that there would be NO sequel. Some people started making maps but there were no true mods developed.

There was a small, but very serious, hard core fan base. This is all it takes to keep a game going. After two years of clanning and playing this game, I was burned out. But, guess what? The game is still going. It came out 4th qtr of 1999...no new mods and very few maps.
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Old 09-04-2002, 09:21 AM   #61
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I think some people are getting the wrong impression from me. I never meant this thread to be a "JK2 is dead" thread. It was supposed to get the opinions of people regarding JK2 after, what, 6 months.

I still play the game, though not as much as I did originally. It's a great game.

I agree that we shouldn't ask Raven for any more patches. Hell, I was happy with 1.02 and I didn't want any other patches, period. I had to upgrade to find servers. JediMod and ProMod have made the game a lot more enjoyable. I don't think there would be too much legal wrangling over Raven making it official. To the best of my knowledge, CS was sort of unoffical and became offical. As did a number of mods for Quake 3 and UT. (Rocket Arena for one)

It'd be interesting to see how far these mods could go with offical support. Dual Sabers with proper animation would be great and bugs would be next to non existant. It'd be good for the community if Raven worked with the creators of these mods or even on their code (which technically is an edited Raven code, so theres more legal stuff)


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Old 09-04-2002, 09:26 AM   #62
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Re: well...

Quote:
Originally posted by NeJJa
well, first off the thing that generally sustains the life of an online shooter after the first few "ooh ahh" months is the competetion. my definition of a game being "alive" are online clans/leagues/ladders, and since JK2 is really competitively inferior (which saddens me more than anything) do to a number of things, the game just doesnt have that big of a following. so disappointing too, JK1 was like a very competitive scene, and now this crap. well, my 2 cents.
You've perfectly described why i wrote ProMod. The true life of an online FPS is determined by the ladder competitions. ProMod was created to revitalize the game in that respect by making the game more suited to it in the following ways:

1. Adding more skill-based outcomes. The original version takes little skill to block and only a little more to hit someone *cough*hit from behind bug*cough*. I think ProMod's come a long way in forcing players to concentrate and practice to get good.

2. Adding depth of play. Most people had nearly the same force power layouts for every game mode. Get absorb level 3, sight level 1, Saber Throw, Jump, blah blah blah. Most of the Force Powers were totally ignored. CTF players ignored the saber completely and just got a projectile weapons and either Absorb and Speed or Dark Rage and Speed (if they wanted to make flag runs). Beta 2 includes the first wave of force power changes that aim to make all powers useful, thereby making each player's Force loadout unique.

3. Empowering the game's most-loved feature: the lightsaber. How many people ran to their software store saying to themselves, "Wow! I'm going to get to use the Rocket Launcher in this game!" I didn't. I don't know anybody that did. I admit some play for the Force Powers alone, but I don't think those people will stick around long. They can always go play some RuneQuake, which has all the same effects and better guns, to boot. I'm constantly working with the saber to make it viewed as something more than a glowing Quake axe.

There's been a lot of resistance among some of the top players to adopting ProMod over the vanilla 1.04 version of the game. Most have said they don't want to relearn how to play. I can understand their perspective. They've spent a lot of practice time getting to the top, and they'd rather not jeopardize that by switching to a different set of skills.

What they need to understand is that people are going to continue to drop out of the game due to its lack of depth if something is not done. They'll find being at the top of their CTF ladder is far less rewarding when all of their challengers have moved on.

If some other mod comes along that's better geared towards ladder play, great. Use it instead of ProMod, but use something else! I haven't seen any other mods that deal with these issues, though. Until I do, I think that any ladder that wants to truly prolong the life of the game should switch over to ProMod, even in its beta state.

One last thought

We have enough tweak/window-dressing mods! All of the mods that are coming out that only make small changes are doing nothing to expand the community. They are only serving to confuse those new to mod-playing. I've heard tons of people say that they hate playing mods. When I ask why, they say that all the mods do is change "stupid" stuff like their saber color, or make their model a midget or a giant, or that they add the completely unnecessary grappling hook.

I think the worst thing that ever happened to the community was the release of the JediMod source code. Every 10 year old with a text editor seems to have their own brand. How many corrupted versions of JediMod do we have now? Can you look at the server listings and know exactly what to expect in each mod? If you, as a forum-goer, don't know what to expect, then how is a n00b supposed to know? Those same n00bs are going to get frustrated and leave.

Please, if you're going to release a mod, do something different. Don't just add some emotes to somebody else's source code and release it under some name starting with the letter, "J". You'll just increase the chaos, and in doing so, worsen the situation for those already contemplating an exodus from the game.

Sigh. End Rant.


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Old 09-04-2002, 09:50 AM   #63
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Quote:
I think the worst thing that ever happened to the community was the release of the JediMod source code. Every 10 year old with a text editor seems to have their own brand. How many corrupted versions of JediMod do we have now? Can you look at the server listings and know exactly what to expect in each mod? If you, as a forum-goer, don't know what to expect, then how is a n00b supposed to know? Those same n00bs are going to get frustrated and leave.

Please, if you're going to release a mod, do something different. Don't just add some emotes to somebody else's source code and release it under some name starting with the letter, "J". You'll just increase the chaos, and in doing so, worsen the situation for those already contemplating an exodus from the game.

Sigh. End Rant.
This is an extremely valid point. I have 5 mods on my MP JK2.

-ProMod Beta 2
-JediMod 1.1
-Instaglib
-Hydroball
-JetPack (Which I'd like to see incorporated into ProMod or JediMod, maybe as a new game type if possible)

While new mods are important, having 20 versions of a mod that does essentially the same thing is ridiculous. It's wastes server space and drives the community apart. I think that only JediMod 1.1 should be used rather than the whole JediMod++ stuff that is popping up.

I'm guessing that the ProMod code will never be released and that's a good thing.


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Old 09-04-2002, 10:45 AM   #64
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Re: Expansion Pack

Quote:
Originally posted by D.L.
I agree. An expansion pack is really what this game needs. Some new environments and maybe even offical Raven-Approved versions of JediMod and/or ProMod. There are a number of niggling bugs in each program that Raven could iron out with the full source and their JK2 team.
I really hope its a cold day in Hell bfore Raven touch this game again. You really think it wise for the ppl who gave us .... ep1.3 The Ass Wars & ep1.4 The Nerf Wars, to incorporate excellent mods such as ProMod (Officially) into any future expansion ?. I mean ProMod was primarily designed to largely 'Undo' what Raven did with the patches after 1.2. Doubt they'll want to step into that irony.

Nah ProMod is best left in the hands of its fathers as far as i'm concerned.

Cheers.
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Old 09-04-2002, 11:06 AM   #65
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Re: Re: Expansion Pack

Quote:
Originally posted by Ged


I really hope its a cold day in Hell bfore Raven touch this game again. You really think it wise for the ppl who gave us .... ep1.3 The Ass Wars & ep1.4 The Nerf Wars, to incorporate excellent mods such as ProMod (Officially) into any future expansion ?. I mean ProMod was primarily designed to largely 'Undo' what Raven did with the patches after 1.2. Doubt they'll want to step into that irony.

Nah ProMod is best left in the hands of its fathers as far as i'm concerned.

Cheers.
LOL! I suppose so but I was thinking about Raven being involved from an aesthetic point of view. There could do new animations for the Dual Saber (which doesn't look great at the moment) and well as making sure that sabers fit in both hands accurately as well as some new stances that aren't just a mix of other stances (in JediMod)

I don't think they should touch any of the other things though 1.03/1.04 were customisable back to the way 1.02 was. There were a number of commands you could edit. It was the admins who didn't know how and Raven got a lot of backlash that wasn't necessarily deserved. Plus I like 1.03. More than 1.02.


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Old 09-04-2002, 11:13 AM   #66
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I think that JK2 will be revived again by Christmas at the latest. Right now all of the real hardcore players have put out their hard earned cash on the game. Plus Attack of the Clones is just about out of the Movie houses, so the desire to be a Jedi is fading. The biggest boost this community could get right now would be a price cut from Raven on the game itself.

As far as the mods go Artifex is right about one thing. The source code for Jeidmod should never have been made a public download. Look at Jediplus 3.3. Its full of bugs!

All we need is more time for the game to come down in price and for the bad mods to go away. For me I will not download any variation of Jedimod unless it is an update from Dest.

Another thing to remember is that if we want to expand the community then as a whole we need to HELP each other! If you’re in a game and someone asks you how you did a move…TELL THEM! Don’t laugh and say…for me to know and u to find out! This is the type of attitude that kills games.

When I first started this game no one would tell me anything. Sure I read the manual but that was not a lot of help in the real game environment. It took nearly three weeks before a nice guy helped me out with my moves and showed me a few tricks.

On my Jeidmod server I have a key bound to all of the commands so that I can help anyone at any time. I also will always help anyone who needs it or wants it. This way people can learn the game and love it as we do.

Also do not call anyone a nOOb. That pisses them off and will send them back to play Counterstrike. Help them! If you do that then we will have very few nOOb players left.

I will keep my server up for as long as I have players on it. And that brings up another point. Many a night I see a list of a few hundred servers but almost half are either empty or locked. So we do have lots of places to play, just not enough players. This is why as a community it would be better to run servers of all one patch type or a mod that makes the master server think they are all the same....hmmmm

A great mod would be one for the server admins. It would allow them to make custom changes to the game play based on the “type” of version they want to play while still making the server appear to be a 1.04 version. Then in your cfg you could change the settings to reflect 1.02, 1.03 or 1.04. This would, at the least, bring all of the servers into the same list. I would write it if I was able to, but alas I am unskilled in this area. If it was a dl of saw less than 700k most players would wait for it. And if we all had it....

Just an idea…...or a mad ramble

But I will play this game until it does die, but I see that a long way off!


Just play the game......do not complain about it!
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Old 09-04-2002, 01:49 PM   #67
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Everyone loves the Star Wars universe so I understand why so many inexeperienced ppl are motivated to try modding,mapping, skinning etc. Hell, I'm one of them ... jk2 inspired me to try mapping. Having said this, there needs to be a filter/review process at some point before the jk2 public is subjected to the more useless user-made addons.

The review process used at the Massassi Temple seems quite good imho but most of the 'come back and find/review me after you've tried me' review/download schemes just don't seem viable.

With so much user made content of variable quality, I believe we need someone/a group to determine what is quality content and what is not. There would be number of positive results from this :

1) reduced amounts of time the average user spends trying to figure out if content is a waste of space or is actually worthwhile.

2) reduce the effort/time/frustration barrier to ppl new to jk2. Imagine starting jk2 now and trying to make sense of all the new mods/maps/etc. 'But you need the new saber hilt mod, really!'

3) it would act as an incentive for content creators to properly finish their work or else their work wouldn't be listed as recommended/quality/etc.

This person/group would have to make some tough calls and would certainly get a fair amount of flak for their efforts. However, I do believe the community would be better for this kind of service.

Yes, in case anyone recalls, I have mentioned this idea before. I thought the idea was worth repeating however.
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Old 09-04-2002, 01:59 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by taboo
Everyone loves the Star Wars universe so I understand why so many inexeperienced ppl are motivated to try modding,mapping, skinning etc. Hell, I'm one of them ... jk2 inspired me to try mapping. Having said this, there needs to be a filter/review process at some point before the jk2 public is subjected to the more useless user-made addons.
...
I agree that this is a great idea. I'd love to see jediknightii.net host a review site. maybe jk2reviews.jediknightii.net? The current file rating system just doesn't work. I had over 8,000 downloads of ProMod Beta 1 tallied up, but only 11 people actually rating the file. I think that those new to the game would give more consideration to using a new mod, map, or skin if there were actually a detailed review of some of the bigger releases.

Kurgan would be a good choice for the job if he's got the time, I think. If you read his strategy guides I think you'll agree that he seems to have his head on straight, and is pretty impartial.

Kurgan? How about it?


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Old 09-04-2002, 04:02 PM   #69
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To answer some replies:


D.L

Not much I can add to what you already said, since they're mostly opinions and people are bound to have different experiences.

I interpert "the game is dead/dying" to indicate that fewer and fewer people are interested in the game, to the point where the community itself is emptying out. I don't see that happening. I see people coming and going.

It's the people saying that the game IS dying that I'm disagreeing with, and what my comments were directed towards.

Most of the reasons I've heard people give for their notion that the game is dying fall into those categories (and I don't agree with them).

Quote:
Bots are only so difficult. It's not that hard to learn their moves and paths. There's a certain inpredictability about human players.
True, but you've got to admit, that many players fall into predictable patterns themselves. How many times have we been in a game and had somebody who only knew one or two moves with the saber or only one weapon they used over and over? How often have you tricked somebody with the same booby trap or sniper position over and over to have them cuss you out and leave/try to get you vote-kicked?

Sure, bots aren't perfect, but once you get good at the game, it can often be tough to find people who are still better than you (I'm not saying they don't exist, I personally believe that there are always "better players" you just might not meet them every day). Bots can also be edited, I might add....

Good comments. I'm just a little jaded, because I remember hearing those comments when JK1 had been out a year and with the JK2 community almost as soon as the game had been released (I guess the warez kiddies beat the game the first day they downloaded it and then basically said the game was dead when it was finally released to the rest of the world??).

I see the mod community as a potentially limitless source of innovation to inspire people to keep playing the game. There is (believe it or not) still a Doom/2 community, and not just the people waiting for Doom3. Why? Because there's so many tools and sources available, people can do all kinds of impressive things. And the game is still being sold, inspite of it being totally obsolete in terms of graphics, sound, gameplay, etc. Now granted, most people don't consider "Doom 2" to be a viable commercial giant, but the property certainly is viable, and the game is so cheap and old, just about anybody can get it and run it. So saying a new game like JK2 is dead is short-sighted I think. In a sense, no good game ever need "die" as long as people are still willing to mod it, even if all of the major servers dry up and we only see a few private games here and there.

But if mods are still coming out, and servers are still up, I don't think the game can be called "dead" by any stretch of the imagination. "Dying" could only really be gauged by total sales I suppose. If the game is no longer being sold, then I guess its "dead" in that sense.

People need to realize (don't want to sound too much like a broken record here) that many things affect the community's size.

Realize that people buy new games at different times. The entire JK2 community was NOT born March 28, 2002. New people are joining and leaving all the time. People buy games when they go on sale, or when they get tired of their other games, or when they buy gifts for people (gift-buying seasons like Christmas dramatically increase sales of entertainment items in general). Stuff like promotions (stuff like that Gateway Challenge) and new patches and mods may help introduce people to the game or get them to come back to playing it or play it more often.

People in different parts of the world may discover the game at different rates. People in Country A didn't get the game until much later than Country B, so they are just discovering it. Somebody who hadn't heard of the game until after they saw Episode 2 in theatres and went to the store to look for SW games is going to be new to the game.

The release of an official expansion would inevitably bring some new people in. The point is that the community is a dynamic affair. I think the way some people talk, they act as if its a simple fixed number of players, and this number simply dwindles as time goes by. That may happen over the long run (we're talking years here) but look at it this way... Raven could in theory release a new expansion every year or so and if each one was popular, people could still be theoretically buying new copies of JK2 three or four years from now. Not saying that will happen, but for games like The Sims and Half Life, that's basically true.

More comments to come....
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Old 09-04-2002, 04:37 PM   #70
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Wink

As to writing reviews for mods, I'd love to do that (when I get time) as I've written reviews before. While they can take a lot of time, they are usually fun (the "research" is the fun part.. heh).

As to a review site for JK2.net, I'll just have to say "wait and see..."


Some seem to be saying that bad mods hurt a game. I would probably agree, assuming those bad mods are highly visible. Whereas good mods help a game, if people know about them. Either way, YOU can do something to help the community out by making good mods, and being a good sport when you play, agreed.

As far as "being a Jedi" going out of fashion, I doubt it. People wanted to be Jedi for the 16 years between Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace (14 years between ROTJ and the Special Editions), and LEC and their support companies have many more "Jedi" games in the works. But those movies DO help raise people's interest, but they're not the only source of interest. ; )
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Old 09-04-2002, 06:14 PM   #71
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Hehe, i'm almost 30 and a little wee part of me still want to be a jedi when i grow up.

I would think that making the good mods more visible would be exactly what a review site would do. I'm not suggesting that bad mods get buried/lost, but that good mods are highlighted, reviewed and explained.

I won't weigh in on whether jk2 is dying or not. However, when I first got my grubby little hands on this game I was awestruck. The single player was brilliant (a bit annoying in places maybe) and the multiplayer had tons of potential but it quickly became apparent that it needed patching. So I took a step back and have been waiting to see what kind of mp equilibrium would be reached. I imagine that I am not alone in this sense.

The patches and mods so far have been rather flimsy in my opinion. They have improved on gameplay somewhat which is good but not enough in my mind. ArtifeX's promod however is more like a jk2 v1.5 ... if it takes off, I think we'll see a lot of renewed interest in jk2.

Anyway, just my 2 cents etc
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Old 09-05-2002, 04:15 AM   #72
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Well Kurgan I could agree with your aurgement that that JKII is not dead if some people still play and some mods are being developed but like you said also that is your definition. To others, their definition is by the amount of people on the servers. When compared to other games that are much older you must admit that the JKII fanbase is small.

I for one love this game but I live in Hawaii and I only see 2 or 3 servers with a decent 100 ping (and you know that ain't too hot) and those servers generally have 2-3 people on it. Too ME that looks dead and does not give me a good outlook.

Also when guaging wether a game is "dead" or "dying" people cannot help but use comparisons. Look at gamespy stats...70000 people in HL and 6000 in MOH. Heck even UT and Q3 still hit around 4500 a nite. JKII is now down around the 1300 mark.

I just feel bad that I am alienated from all the good stuff coming out. I can't ping a Promod server under 400. And the JediMod and JediPlus servers are in the 250 range. I'm on cable but distance kills me.


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Old 09-05-2002, 08:28 AM   #73
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Quote:
Bots can also be edited, I might add....
Yes, I'm aware of this. I've already edited my bots to make them very fast, very accurate but they are still somewhat predictable. I was actually going to release the bot files for a tougher challenge to those not fortunate enough to be able to play online.

On a related note, I can do some reviews for mods/files/etc if needed.


Star Wars, General Chat and Games. Join if you want!
http://lounge.proboards5.com

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Old 09-06-2002, 01:37 AM   #74
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Maybe JO Wasn't Meant to Last?

I have been absent from this game and forum for about two to three months and publically quit the game sometime in May/June.

I posted a "farewell thread" where I explained I quit the game because of my frustration with the horrible patches Raven put out (1.3, 1.4) that basically destroyed the base Jedi Outcast game which resulted in splintering the community into over a billion Mods and server settings that go way beyond player perference and made the game boring because of the limited number of choices -- nerfed saber, weapons and force powers -- That a player could use to have fun or defeat an opponent.

I still stand by that statement and do not play online that much anymore if at all.

I think this is relevant because I do know for a fact that I wasn't the only one to leave the game altogether -- The MP portion -- For the reasons I stated above.

However, what hasn't been brought up here yet is the fact that a lot of players - avid gamers and also JKI fans - Thought that JO wasn't that good a game to begin with... And I happen to partly agree with that analysis as well.

The reason I agree with this is because while there is no other game currently like JO on the market today... If you get right down to it, JO is an appealing game when you first play it, but generally looses its appeal after an extensive period of time (6 months or more)...

Because the game itself is very shallow and lacks any depth to it once you get past the "Oo and ahh" phase as someone put it.

How is it shallow and lack depth you ask?

It's shallow and lacks depth because the main thing the game focused on when it came out was asthetics (and that's what still primarily attracts people more than anything else). I'm referring to the lightsaber, level design, SW Universe Character representations, etc.

However, actual gameplay -- Even in 1.2 -- Was still lacking in many aspects and in particular, any real skill once you got past all of the asthetics (and it's only gotten worse).

I think this is important to note as it reflects not just the competitive players attitudes, but average players like myself.

MP saber battles in 1.2 -- aside from the "feather glance kill bug" -- Were mostly about luck. If you recall, this was one of the complaints that a lot of people expressed when they asked Raven to make MP saber battles to be more like the SP porption.

Then we got 1.3 which was a total cluster f*ck anyway you put it.

It divided the community not only because of the technical bugs it introduced into the game (spammed, one-hit kill moves), but because it also touched on something that I think the JO community had been trying to avoid until then and that is it revealed a side of players -- and brought in a certain type of player -- That the JO community thought existed in "other" games and wasn't present in JO... At least not yet since the game was still relatively new when 1.3 came out.

I'm talking about the kind of players who fully admitted to using the one-hit kill moves and other exploits just so they could be number one on the kill board at the end of a match with that being their ONLY goal, foregoing the social aspect or anything remotely ressembling "civilzed" online behavior.

These kinds of players were usually the more immature players and basically the ones many would classify as "asses" or "jerks" that need to be voted off from time to time...

And while these players exist in all games... They really started to come out of the wood-work when 1.3 was introduced and this splintered the community with those "jerk" players being at odds with the ones who considered themselves more "ideal" JO players who followed the SW, Jedi code and whatnot.

Do you see what I am getting at?

I will assume you are smart enough to read between the lines so I will move on...

My main point in rehashing all that is the fact that perhaps JO wasn't meant to have a long life as other games that have come before it have?

It may not be what anybody wants to hear, but it might be the truth (especially if Raven keeps nerfing things, but I digress...).

Now, is the JO Community dying?

Like many have said, there are different definitions and interpretations of what "dying" and "dead" are so I won't bother throw my two cents in with regard to this specific question.

I will say, however, that if you look at how many servers there active on any given day using Gamespy or All-Seeing Eye, a lot of them ARE empty now and at peak hours when most players could be playing the game, regardless of age; either after school and at night -- And this includes the Modded servers as well and not just the regular 1.2-1.4 servers.

Again, while I realize that isn't enough to make a generalization on whether the community is dying or not, I think it is a fair indicator of perhaps how popular the game is right now and even if people don't want to admit it, it is tapering off (as all games do over time)... And I see no real ressurgence in sight unless Raven releases an expansion or other high visibility product/update to get the general public interested in the game again (like AOTC did).
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Old 09-06-2002, 07:10 AM   #75
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amen for promod!
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Old 09-06-2002, 09:11 AM   #76
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Re: Maybe JO Wasn't Meant to Last?

Quote:
Originally posted by Nobodi Kenobi
I have been absent from this game and forum for about two to three months and publically quit the game sometime in May/June.

I posted a "farewell thread" where I explained I quit the game because of my frustration with the horrible patches Raven put out (1.3, 1.4) that basically destroyed the base Jedi Outcast game which resulted in splintering the community into over a billion Mods and server settings that go way beyond player perference and made the game boring because of the limited number of choices -- nerfed saber, weapons and force powers -- That a player could use to have fun or defeat an opponent.

I still stand by that statement and do not play online that much anymore if at all.

I think this is relevant because I do know for a fact that I wasn't the only one to leave the game altogether -- The MP portion -- For the reasons I stated above.
...
Again, while I realize that isn't enough to make a generalization on whether the community is dying or not, I think it is a fair indicator of perhaps how popular the game is right now and even if people don't want to admit it, it is tapering off (as all games do over time)... And I see no real ressurgence in sight unless Raven releases an expansion or other high visibility product/update to get the general public interested in the game again (like AOTC did).
You have described nearly verbatim my own "farewell/retirement" post some months ago. I quit for exactly the same reasons, and left my reasons posted publicly in an effor to spur whoever was in control of JK2's future into taking some kind of action to repair the game. It was only when 1.04 came out that I realized that Raven/Lucasarts was incapable of completing the game.

Yes, I said, completing the game. No game is complete until the people who bought the game are satisified with their purchase.

You are exactly the kind of person that ProMod was created for in the first place. If you haven't tried it, please do. It really does fix a bunch of the beefs you had with the official versions. It's not a gimmick mod that you'll play for a bit and realize that under the surface it's no different from the regular game.

It makes the saber fighting, and some other aspects a lot more interesting than before. It really does take skill to win now. Go read the "About" section at the main site (http://www.oculis.org/promod/), then read the strategy section. Find yourself a server, and get into a private duel or duel gametype. You'll see that you're having to do a lot more physical and mental work to win.

But don't take my word for it. Just ask those who've been playing ProMod lately.


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Old 09-06-2002, 10:15 AM   #77
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Re: Re: Maybe JO Wasn't Meant to Last?

Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX


It was only when 1.04 came out that I realized that Raven/Lucasarts was incapable of completing the game.

Yes, I said, completing the game. No game is complete until the people who bought the game are satisified with their purchase.

Ya can't please everyone ...
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Old 09-06-2002, 10:42 AM   #78
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Re: Re: Maybe JO Wasn't Meant to Last?

Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX


.It's not a gimmick mod that you'll play for a bit and realize that under the surface it's no different from the regular game.

If u read my other posts from today you will see how I feel about promod...but for the most part I like it.

But other mods do offer things that the original does not and DOES allows the server the ability to increase the skill of the game. The mod that I run most right now is Jedimod v1.2.

Under the skin of the emotes is a system that alows for moves that were removed from the game to be put back in. And the ability to change some of the damage skills as well as the zoned damage.

Meaning that if you are to slice someone in heavy stance in the head they die...period.I also run always trace saber first, always box trace, ghoul 2 collision and a box trace size of 0 as well as knockback set to 1.2. and lower blocking values...meaning if your swinging you are not blocking.These allow for some serious duels. If you do not know what u are doing then you will die in one move.

So please do not say that these games are "just like" the regualar game. True they do not have the + and - system of promod...but more skill is needed than any standard game of JK2. You add in the variety of dual sabers and the extra stances and you can have one hell of a fight.

But some nights people just want to have fun and goof off. Things like jetpacks and emotes allow for this. Promod is for those who take the game very serious indeed, and sometimes I like that. Other times goofing off is more fun.


Just play the game......do not complain about it!
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Old 09-06-2002, 02:44 PM   #79
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Re: Re: Re: Maybe JO Wasn't Meant to Last?

Quote:
Originally posted by Sith Maximus

So please do not say that these games are "just like" the regualar game. True they do not have the + and - system of promod...but more skill is needed than any standard game of JK2. You add in the variety of dual sabers and the extra stances and you can have one hell of a fight.
I wasn't specifically referring to jedimod1.2, or any of the other mods. I was only trying to differentiate ProMod from the average mod you'll find in the jkii.net files section.

You're right, jm1.2 is great for goofing off with the emotes and such. Some of the more role-play-style jk2'ers have told me they use it for that reason. I can understand that. Nobodi Kenobi doesn't sound like he runs with that crowd. I was attempting to tell him that ProMod concentrates on substantive gameplay, which is what he seems to crave.


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Old 09-06-2002, 02:59 PM   #80
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Re: Re: Re: Maybe JO Wasn't Meant to Last?

Quote:
Originally posted by Sith Maximus


So please do not say that these games are "just like" the regualar game. True they do not have the + and - system of promod...but more skill is needed than any standard game of JK2. You add in the variety of dual sabers and the extra stances and you can have one hell of a fight.
ProMod changes the way the game "feels" not just the way it "looks"

The new Footspeed changes have brought back that fast and fluid feel of the original without bring back the bugs. No longer is the game full of constant slow downs.

The blocking system is reliable, you know what is going to happen when you block. You don't have these partial break or some buggy system that sometimes blocks and sometimes doesn't.

The game feels much more polished then 1.04 and any of the Mods that run the same system with a few extras.

Other Mods are great fun, but thats it. Deep down at their core they are the same as 1.04, they just have some added features. ProMod has a different system, that is almost as radical as the change from 1.02 to 1.03.


Battlefield 1942........
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