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Old 09-06-2002, 05:20 PM   #81
Sith Maximus
 
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Here is a list of the new variables in Jediplus 3.4. These are the defaults. My new setting are about 20% higher.

Notice the box trace settings. If you have not played this way then you need to before you post a comment..not bitching....just I think you need to test these settings.

mod_damagecontrol; Turns full server-side saber damage contol on if set to 1

mod_redmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 2)
mod_redmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 120)
mod_rspmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Special (default 2) (Jump Attack)
mod_rspmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Special (default 180) (Jump Attack)
mod_rbsmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Backstab (default 2)
mod_rbsmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Backstab (default 30)

mod_yspmin; - Minimum Damage of Yellow Stance Special (default 2) (DFA)
mod_yspmax; - Maximum Damage of Yellow Stance Special (default 80) (DFA)
mod_ybsmin; - Minimum Damage of Yellow Stance Backstab (default 2)
mod_ybsmax; - Maximum Damage of Yellow Stance Backstab (default 25)
mod_yellowdmg; - Damage of Yellow Stance Standard Attack (default 60)

mod_bspmin; - Minimum Damage of Blue Stance Special (default 2) (Lunge)
mod_bspmax; - Maximum Damage of Blue Stance Special (default 30) (Lunge)
mod_bbsmin; - Minimum Damage of Blue Stance Backstab (default 2)
mod_bbsmax; - Maximum Damage of Blue Stance Backstab (default 30)
mod_bluedmg; - Damage of Blue Stance Standard Attack (default 30)

mod_ospmin; - Minimum Damage of Orange Stance Special (default 2) (Tornado)
mod_ospmax; - Maximum Damage of Orange Stance Special (default 70) (Tornado)
mod_obsmin; - Minimum Damage of Orange Stance Backstab (default 2)
mod_obsmax; - Maximum Damage of Orange Stance Backstab (default 25)
mod_orangedmg; - Damage of Orange Stance Standard Attack (default 55)

mod_pspmin; - Minimum Damage of Purple Stance Special (default 2) (DFA2)
mod_pspmax; - Maximum Damage of Purple Stance Special (default 70) (DFA2)
mod_pbsmin; - Minimum Damage of Purple Stance Backstab (default 2)
mod_pbsmax; - Maximum Damage of Purple Stance Backstab (default 25)
mod_purpledmg; - Damage of Purple Stance Standard Attack (default 30)

Saber stuff:
seta g_saberboxtracesize "-1"
seta g_saberdmgvelocityscale "1.2"
seta g_saberdmgdelay_idle "350"
seta g_saberdmgdelay_wound "0"
seta g_saberghoul2collision "1"
seta g_sabertracesaberfirst "1"
seta _saberalwaysboxtrace "1"

And yes Promod has a different "feel" to it than other mods. If you also read you will see that I do LIKE Promod, others on my server did not.

Blocking in the current Jedimod/Jediplus is also a variable command. You can make it higher or lower. At lower settings you do not block unless you are not swinging your saber. A swinging saber is open to attacks because it is unable to fully block them.

seta mod_blockscale "0"

This setting means NO autoblocking. If you swing and miss and your opponent has an opening that they can use to strike before you bring your hands back to the ready position to block....then you are prob dead. This settings in plain english means do not swing unless you know your going to hit someone. This comes from lots of practice.

Most servers I have been on none of these settings have been used and indeed it is just a "window" dressing of 1.04.

But the way I have the saber damage set and the way the blocking works is more like 1.02, which is what I feel Promod is a close kin to in many ways.

Also I get no slowdowns on my server of any kind and if you feel that Jedimod/Jediplus it is a slower game it is not....

seta mod_timescale "1.2"//default is 1.0

This setting speeds the game up sligtly and takes away the "slow" feeling of standard 1.04.

I think all mods have a place...Promod for those fans who take games in general very serious, and the other mods for those who play for fun.

I find myself in the middle....so I will play both. I just felt that it was time someone got to the plate and took a swing for jedimod/jediplus. But the clients speak out the most.

I ran Promod for 2 1/2 hra last night and had three (including me) clients. twocame because they always do, one was even my co admin, and I sent them the Promod link. No others came to my door.

Then, at their request, I launched the Forcemod and within five minutes of being up we were full.

If Promod becomes the dominating mod then I will run it reguardless of what others feel. But for now I will stick to the most part Jedimod and Jediplus with the heavily modified settings I have talked about here.


Just play the game......do not complain about it!
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Old 09-09-2002, 06:35 PM   #82
Daxion Rai
 
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Damn..................

All this negative talk makes a n00b like me discouraged. I just got the game and am looking for some good games. But all I hear is nerfed weapon balance and spam/cheap moves. What would you vets suggest for a beginner? Where can one find good servers to train/play without having to put up with any immature crap?

Thnax in advance.


This partys over..........muthafu**a!
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Old 09-09-2002, 08:34 PM   #83
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didnt i mention that would be the opinion of new players when reading these threads? - Thankyou

*hears echos of you were right spy*

Please lets have no more whine threads about jk2. Its a great game or u would be playing it.

Daxon Rai where are u from? If ur from uk i can direct u in the way of some good servers
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Old 09-09-2002, 11:09 PM   #84
Jah Warrior
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Yes this game is on the brink of death, new players are few and far between now, this is down to th eridiculous number of mods available, its just messed everything up.


Peace & Ting

Jah
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Old 09-10-2002, 10:29 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi Spy
didnt i mention that would be the opinion of new players when reading these threads? - Thankyou

*hears echos of you were right spy*

Please lets have no more whine threads about jk2. Its a great game or u would be playing it.

Daxon Rai where are u from? If ur from uk i can direct u in the way of some good servers
And the constant threads bitching about 1.03, 1.04, DFA, Red Stance, Backstab, Cheating, Bugs in the game and so on and so forth wouldn't have had the same effect regardless of this thread?

No one is disputing the game itself. Obviously if you are posting here, you are still playing it. This thread is looking at the future (or lack thereof, for some people) of the game.

He's from NYC as it plainly says under his avatar.


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Old 09-10-2002, 11:04 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sith Maximus
Here is a list of the new variables in Jediplus 3.4....

mod_damagecontrol; Turns full server-side saber damage contol on if set to 1

mod_redmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 2)
mod_redmax; - Maximum Damage of Red Stance Standard Attack (default 120)
mod_rspmin; - Minimum Damage of Red Stance Special (default 2) (Jump Attack)
...
This is exactly what I want to avoid in ProMod. This is way too much customizability for an admin to have. I would bet there are no two servers running this mod with the exact same settings. How are you supposed to formulate and practice a set of combat techniques when they'll work differently on every server you visit?
How are you supposed to get any better if you don't frequent the same server?

I can't imagine how frustrating this would be to new players. There are so many variables for them to grasp already. Throwing in one more variable for every single type of swing would make the learning curve extremely high for someone truly wanting to improve their skill level.

The worst part about it is that there's no way for them to realize what these variables are set at before they join. Even after they join they would have to play for some time before they could figure out what all the damages are set at (they'd have to allow themselves to be hit by the different swings and look at the resulting damage).


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Old 09-10-2002, 11:53 AM   #87
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We have enough tweak/window-dressing mods! All of the mods that are coming out that only make small changes are doing nothing to expand the community. They are only serving to confuse those new to mod-playing. I've heard tons of people say that they hate playing mods. When I ask why, they say that all the mods do is change "stupid" stuff like their saber color, or make their model a midget or a giant, or that they add the completely unnecessary grappling hook.
You forget one thing: people like them. By that stament you basically say "All mods that do not change saber combat are useless". Different saber colors was a very requested feature before Tchouky began doing his mod. A very good mod at that. Scaling models? What about Yoda? It was necessary to get scaling working to make him into the game.

Grappling hooks? You say they are unnecessary. From the comments I got, I can say that people liked my mod. Even in the basic state that it was (I never intended originally it to be a true mod, rather a feature to prove that it was possible to do) people liked it. Even in SW universe (and I hate the blatant statements that JK2 mods need to follow the rules of that universe, and if they not, they are worthless/stupid/etc.) there are grappling hooks. Mercenaries use them. That's why in jediVmerc it was limited to mercs only. Because that was according to SW facts (if you can call science fiction a fact). No mod is worthless/unnecessary if people play it and love it. You have no permission to say that "mod A,B,C is useless". If you think it is, don't include the feature in your own mod.

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Old 09-10-2002, 01:04 PM   #88
Jah Warrior
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX


This is exactly what I want to avoid in ProMod. This is way too much customizability for an admin to have. I would bet there are no two servers running this mod with the exact same settings. How are you supposed to formulate and practice a set of combat techniques when they'll work differently on every server you visit?
How are you supposed to get any better if you don't frequent the same server?

I can't imagine how frustrating this would be to new players. There are so many variables for them to grasp already. Throwing in one more variable for every single type of swing would make the learning curve extremely high for someone truly wanting to improve their skill level.

The worst part about it is that there's no way for them to realize what these variables are set at before they join. Even after they join they would have to play for some time before they could figure out what all the damages are set at (they'd have to allow themselves to be hit by the different swings and look at the resulting damage).
Ah man artifex,

You miss the point entirely. I know you will never agree. If you think that what people need is a common set of damage values why are they changed in promod?!?! OK I use Duel SE and will be for the forseeable future, simply because you can turn blue lunge into a strike that does its specified ammount of damage even including the draeded double hit.

Also why in promod did you take the easiest possible move :- red downward hack and make it a one hit kil, LMAO you are truly midguided or a lover of red stance to the extreme.

ultimately artifex your standpoint on this topis ic heavily biased nuff said...


Peace & Ting

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Old 09-10-2002, 01:14 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by ASk


You forget one thing: people like them. By that stament you basically say "All mods that do not change saber combat are useless"...
That's not what I'm saying at all. The idea that I was trying to get across was that the community doesn't need any more mods that do things like this. They've been done already. The modding community needs to focus on widening the gameplay options rather than tweaking things that have been done in other mods. The saber combat modifications of ProMod are only one example of that. There are innumerable other ways to enhance the fun of the game than by adding more cosmetic mods to the mix.

I actually think the customizable saber color mod that tchouky did adds significantly to the gameplay. It makes it very easy to tell one player from another from a distance when both players have the same or similar models. I actually plan to include something similar in one of my next releases. I would just hope that someone doesn't try to release a tchouky-saber-color++ mod.

Quote:

...
Grappling hooks? You say they are unnecessary. From the comments I got, I can say that people liked my mod. Even in the basic state that it was (I never intended originally it to be a true mod, rather a feature to prove that it was possible to do) people liked it. Even in SW universe (and I hate the blatant statements that JK2 mods need to follow the rules of that universe, and if they not, they are worthless/stupid/etc.) there are grappling hooks. Mercenaries use them. That's why in jediVmerc it was limited to mercs only. Because that was according to SW facts (if you can call science fiction a fact).
I'll admit that the grappling hook comment was just my opinion. You can jump 20 meters straight up in this game, after all. That would just seem to make them unnecessary to me. Jedi vs. Merc I can see them being useful though.

Quote:

No mod is worthless/unnecessary if people play it and love it. You have no permission to say that "mod A,B,C is useless". If you think it is, don't include the feature in your own mod.
Though i don't think anyone needs "permission" to speak their mind here, I wasn't calling anyone's mod "useless". I do think that the mod makers should take some responsibility for the mods they release, and decide whether their release will further confuse new players and water down the pool of jk2 mods.


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Old 09-10-2002, 01:14 PM   #90
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Personally i thought the hit damage in 1.04 was not bad, better when toned down but there's too many mods now, all different damage and there's no point in learning tactics unless you stick to one server.
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Old 09-10-2002, 01:25 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jah Warrior


Ah man artifex,

You miss the point entirely. I know you will never agree. If you think that what people need is a common set of damage values why are they changed in promod?!?! OK I use Duel SE and will be for the forseeable future, simply because you can turn blue lunge into a strike that does its specified ammount of damage even including the draeded double hit.
Damages changed from what? 1.02? 1.03? 1.04? Damages have always been in a state of flux. ProMod's damage scale is just an attempt to bring them into balance. The blue stance's lunge swing damage only varies by about 5-10 points in ProMod, btw.

Quote:

Also why in promod did you take the easiest possible move :- red downward hack and make it a one hit kil, LMAO you are truly midguided or a lover of red stance to the extreme.

ultimately artifex your standpoint on this topis ic heavily biased nuff said...
Actually, I haven't done anything to the red downward hack. It's always been capable of hitting twice since 1.02. It's just benefitting from the general damage boost I gave the entire red stance over 1.04. That swing is also nearly impossible to hit with in ProMod, as it will almost always strike the defenders saber before it hits their body. I actually had someone last night complaining that swing was too strong, so I asked them to hit me with it. They couldn't. They sure tried, but they couldn't hit me even once with it, let alone get a solid enough hit to strike twice.

Guess I'm in kinda an argumentative mood today.


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Old 09-10-2002, 01:55 PM   #92
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you jsut have to spring it on them and they're dead no prob.
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Old 09-10-2002, 03:04 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX


I can't imagine how frustrating this would be to new players. There are so many variables for them to grasp already. Throwing in one more variable for every single type of swing would make the learning curve extremely high for someone truly wanting to improve their skill level.

The worst part about it is that there's no way for them to realize what these variables are set at before they join.
True a learning curve can happen from server to server and it does depend on the way that the server has been setup. But by playing a mod they should realize that it will not be a standard game in any way and they should ask what changes have been made.

Plus as far as style go...I do not change mine from game to game. I stick with what I know and use it to the best of my ability. All of the basic saber moves are the same from gametype to gametype.

As for new players myself or my co admin always asks if they know how to do the air lunge for example. If they do not we will show them. Heck I even let people kill me every night just to show them how things work.

Most people who visit me come back to play again becuase of the way I have it setup as well as the variations in gametypes. Some times its fun to be serious and other times its fun to just have fun.
I was on your server over the weekend and let me say that it was full of very unhelpfull people. They were running around overhead slashing each other over and over again. Better than 1.04 for sure but not any where near as fun for the AVERAGE gamer than a Jedimod or Jedplus server.

Games need variety thats for sure, look at Quake, UT or Halflife. These games survive and flourish with variety.

Jedimod was made for the crowd who wanted to "get jiggy" with a lightsaber or a destroyer saber. You get to taunt your attackers in all sorts of ways or just sit down and relax for a while. The fun is in the extras for most players. I duel my coadmin and a select core of players most nights. We take the game a little more serious than the others, but I want everyone to enjoy themselves.

You wanted a more difinitive combat style system, so you made it. And it is great for what it is. I have even upped my damage scales to make the saber fights more about skill and less about flair.

But all mods have their place. Next month Jedimod will prob be replaced by something else.

Heck If I were you I would get the Jedimod code and add in those saber colors you stated above as well as the scaling of the models.

I would say that would boost the mod popularity through the roof. Not all players are good, heck a great deal of them just plain suck. But they want to have fun and thats the bottom line.


Just play the game......do not complain about it!
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Old 09-10-2002, 03:39 PM   #94
Jah Warrior
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The only true fault with 1,04 is the fact that the blue lunge is capable of double hitting, 80 hp from a move that can be pulled off instantly if you time it right, that just aint right.


Peace & Ting

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Old 09-10-2002, 03:40 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sith Maximus

...
I was on your server over the weekend and let me say that it was full of very unhelpfull people. They were running around overhead slashing each other over and over again. Better than 1.04 for sure but not any where near as fun for the AVERAGE gamer than a Jedimod or Jedplus server.
...
You must have been there with some players new to the mod. In practice, I've found that anyone repetitively doing any move gets beaten pretty handily by any of the regular players. Look for ZeroWingZero, FatalStrike, or Blind Moradin sometime in my server. I think you'll find that combat amongst the skilled is very different from what you experienced.

Just ask Zero how many times I've carved him up like a turkey with Blue stance.

Quote:

Heck If I were you I would get the Jedimod code and add in those saber colors you stated above as well as the scaling of the models.

I would say that would boost the mod popularity through the roof. Not all players are good, heck a great deal of them just plain suck. But they want to have fun and thats the bottom line.
At some point I will be adding some more cosmetic details such as the RGB sabers (though it won't be Tchouky's), but I've been pretty vocal in my resistance to the model scaling idea. I haven't yet seen an implementation that handled this in a way that preserves game balance. The fact that 80% of the normally-scaled saber swing animations go over the head of the scaled-down Yoda model (sometimes even when ducking) makes this just too great of an advantage.


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Old 09-10-2002, 03:46 PM   #96
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nobodys at your server so Im really bored and have too much free time


Nobodys prefect perfect
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Old 09-10-2002, 03:50 PM   #97
Jah Warrior
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX
Actually, I haven't done anything to the red downward hack. It's always been capable of hitting twice since 1.02. It's just benefitting from the general damage boost I gave the entire red stance over 1.04. That swing is also nearly impossible to hit with in ProMod, as it will almost always strike the defenders saber before it hits their body. I actually had someone last night complaining that swing was too strong, so I asked them to hit me with it. They couldn't. They sure tried, but they couldn't hit me even once with it, let alone get a solid enough hit to strike twice.

Guess I'm in kinda an argumentative mood today.
Man you aint swinging it right then, if you time it right for when the opponent is in an attack it will cut the poor sod in half, my main gripe with promod is that its far too easy. I actually had to pull the mod off my server because it got to the point where you can win sooo easily with an easy shot that people were winning 20-30 matches in a row (not naming names... ok it was me ) some people got the real hump because it had shuffled the deck so much.

Ultimately this may sound contradictory, but i really loved promod it was ingenious if flawed. I'll wait till its finished then give it another go, but in the mean time I cant put up with the bugs - turning dfas,lunges, running around during yellow finisher and spinning backstabs. may aswell go back to 1.03 LOL.

Anyways Artifex if you want someone who is a sceptic to test your mod rather than one of your fanclub let me know and you will get an honest appraisal of it rather than simply fawning to you. Damn this sounds pissy but hey I'm speaking my pissy little mind.



Peace & Ting

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Old 09-10-2002, 05:03 PM   #98
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I suggest you guys go discuss ProMod in another thead. It's off topic here.


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Old 09-10-2002, 05:15 PM   #99
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To Jah Warrior

The downward Red slash is SOOOOOO easy to avoid or counter that if you get hit with it, well then DIE!! It will take no time for people to actually anticipate it and make it damn near impossible to land. What is this nonsense that people win over and over. I've played Promod a lot and I NEVER get owned by that silly swing.

Also the turning DFA, yellow DFA, and spinning backstabs happen very rarely. They are still less of a bother then random blocking.

This is just my opinion, please don't go all apesh!t on me. I really don't understand why you are so anti-strong hits.



Also Razorace this topic is about JKII dieing and ProMod is one of the things breathing life back into it. Your constant anti-Promod attitude is starting to tick me off. If you don't want to read about it, skip the posts that cover it.


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Old 09-10-2002, 05:21 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX


You must have been there with some players new to the mod. In practice, I've found that anyone repetitively doing any move gets beaten pretty handily by any of the regular players. Look for ZeroWingZero, FatalStrike, or Blind Moradin sometime in my server. I think you'll find that combat amongst the skilled is very different from what you experienced.

I shall do that, thanks.

Also I think you may have the wrong idea about the model cfg. Its nice to have a variety of sizes of players, just like in real life. Plus the fact some are faster and some are slower adds to the difficulty factor of the game.

Yoda may be small but he is wicked fast and quite hard to hit even for a std size player. In blue stance Yoda kicks some serious behind. On the other side the wookie has great reach, but is slowed down as well, just as in real life.

Your mod has made the combat somewhat more realistic than std JK2 so the addition of different model sizes should only improve the game.

Your welcome to come to Crazy Yoda to see what I mean. Dueling with a yoda is far different than with a wookie for the average player.

Oh just so we dont get slammed again.........

I LOVE RED STANCE. RED STANCE IS GOOD. RED STANCE MAKE ME WIN.


Just play the game......do not complain about it!
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Old 09-10-2002, 06:59 PM   #101
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See the thing with blue stance... it was lag or H4x or something... Just like the 8/10 times i kick ArtifeX's ass on his server, jk

Anyway i do see what Jah is saying, for the style of play on his server or maybe others, promod might seem a bit too fast but that's expected. The damage is up from 1.04 and at least in my oppinion it is best played in FF, even with heal and drain people still get killed, belive me.

As for other nf servers i've played, i never hear complaints, If you lose in Promod it IS your fault, it's not like playing roulette. If more people would get used to it (or stop saying "i like jedimod....just because...) i see good things for promod. Heh what would be cool is after the final version is released to make Raven push it as a new patch (as well as some models/maps)
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Old 09-10-2002, 08:42 PM   #102
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I think there should be one more patch. However I'm proposing a real patch, since 1.03 and 1.04 were effectively mods. I've been thinking about this for a while and I've got a pretty good list of changes I would like to see: (I have removed a few from this list because I felt they were based on personal bias and play approach)

Quote:
1) Prevent Saber from blocking sniper shots aimed at feet, its far too easy for anyone to evade snipers simply by switching to saber. Especially since with the blocking animation, the saber doesn't even reach as far as the feet.

2) Fix the animation bugs associated with the various "throwables", purely aesthetic, but its rediculous that this is still present after TWO patches, despite being complained about with the original release.

3) Have the Toogle/Timed force power icons start flashing 5 seconds before they are due to turn off, this should make force managament a bit easier, especially in CTF where EVERYTHING is about timing.

4) Prevent the Toogle/Timed force power icons from being hidden when using the zoom mode of the disrupter, if there is a lot of firefighting around you its hard to tell if seeing has turned itself off.

5) Find some way to stop the Forcefield pickup from causing so much lag, it makes ANY game literally unplayable for anyone above about 100 ping.

6) Make it so that if you cancel dark rage early, the recovery time is proportionally less

7) Fix the bug that makes the red tint of dark rage remain for a few moments after respawning

8) Make the blue tint of Absorb a client-side option, using absorb makes it quite difficult to judge player colours, especially if people are using rage and absorb as well. Whose idea was it to make the Rage and Absorb colours the same as the team colours anyway? Do the same with the red tint of Rage

9) Put the speed and saber trails on/off option in the actual menu instead of just being a little-known cvar

10) Give the player choice over the crosshairs without having to use the console, its mentioned in the manual so I don't know why it was removed from the final version...

11) More netcode optimization, many people have said to me that the new protocol in 1.04 has made lag a lot worse

12) Make it possible to wall-walk whilst holding a gun. Neo does it in The Matrix, so why can't our Jedi?

13) Make Force Speed and Dark Rage less laggy, its practically impossible to use them reliably in any map featuring pits, if your ping is above about 150.

14) Put the option to use the simplified HUD in the menu too

You will note that any gameplay changes are generally quite minor, and there is nothing as drastic as the changes in 1.03/1.04
On the subject of reviews for maps, I heartily agree. Now for some good news, those who played the original JK may remember Hyperview, hosted by Jediknight.net. Well anyway, Hyperview is coming back quite soon (it already has LFN hosting), and the first reviews should also be available soon.

I think the real problem with the mods is that the editing community is so expansive, just from reading the mapping and coding forums, i've witnessed how hesistant people are to cooperate with each other... Originally I had hoped Massassi would draw some editors, especially with its flourishing showcase forums and screen-of-the-day system. This isn't the case (yet), but JediKnight2.net is far too broad a site, the editing forums get far too cluttered and its practically impossible to find any useful information since when i've asked for help the thread has been 3 pages back within a day.

Another problem with mods, is that people have no idea where to begin. I want to start coding for an MP project i've been planning, but i've yet to find a single tutorial on where to begin. We need REAL editing resources.
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Old 09-11-2002, 09:11 AM   #103
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I'm not sure if everyone heard the idea...

COMBINE PROMOD & JEDIMOD

Because I love both mods, and they do not interfere with each other. Even dual and bouble-bladed sabers go with promod if well balanced.

Jedimod is simply cool. Many people play it for this reason. Imagine playing Anakin dual saber vs Dooku or playing Yoda or Obi vs Maul.... This is what brings in new players.

Promod makes JK2 worth practicing. Without it you can't even count on your saber blocking - who knows if it'll block this time or not?

See the point? Jedimod brings in new players while promod keeps people playing. Now THIS can bring life into JK2.

For anyone "anti-promod" - it's still in beta it's not perfect, but the basic idea is right. Maybe it needs tweaking/ balancing whatever, it does (trying to do) something no other mod does that's making it competitive. I guess we can agree on this one?
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Old 09-11-2002, 11:04 AM   #104
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enough

ah, forget it

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Old 09-11-2002, 01:57 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by Homeboy
I'm not sure if everyone heard the idea...

COMBINE PROMOD & JEDIMOD

Because I love both mods, and they do not interfere with each other. Even dual and bouble-bladed sabers go with promod if well balanced.

Jedimod is simply cool. Many people play it for this reason. Imagine playing Anakin dual saber vs Dooku or playing Yoda or Obi vs Maul.... This is what brings in new players.

Promod makes JK2 worth practicing. Without it you can't even count on your saber blocking - who knows if it'll block this time or not?

See the point? Jedimod brings in new players while promod keeps people playing. Now THIS can bring life into JK2.

For anyone "anti-promod" - it's still in beta it's not perfect, but the basic idea is right. Maybe it needs tweaking/ balancing whatever, it does (trying to do) something no other mod does that's making it competitive. I guess we can agree on this one?
In a way I guess this is what I am saying too. I have upped my saber damage and skill through the roof on my server to make it more about skill than a random gereration of events, but alas it is not the exactness of promod.

But everytime I try to goto promod everyone either throws a fit or leaves, why? Because to the AVERGE player promod is just far too hard and they do not want to take the time to "relearn" tactics.

But I have upped the damages over the last two weeks to prepare them for my weekly running of promod. Perhaps in time they will come to see what it is really about.

Also maybe by then some of our comments and suggestions in blending these elements will come to pass. As a gamehost I could think of no mod that could or would be better than these two in combination.


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Old 09-11-2002, 03:55 PM   #106
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I shall do that, thanks.

Also I think you may have the wrong idea about the model cfg. Its nice to have a variety of sizes of players, just like in real life. Plus the fact some are faster and some are slower adds to the difficulty factor of the game.


Here's the deal with the model size thing:

When you play ProMod, most of your effort is expended maintaining a solid aiming lock on your target. The perfect "center" point that you're trying to get a bead on is right in the center of the player model. So if you're aiming at the opponent's head, your aim won't be quite as strong (by a small margin) as it would be if you aimed at their heart. Same goes for aiming at the feet.

If you make player model sizes variable, then you give yourself, as a developer, two choices. Do you:

1. Make the player model scaling client-side only and maintain the normal hit box for that player on the server, thus eliminating any advantage you get from having a smaller model, but forcing the attacking player to non-intuitively aim over/under the shortened/enlarged apparent center of mass.

or,

2. Make both the server and the client understand that the model is smaller, giving small models a big advantage to avoiding swings, and larger models a huge disadvantage to avoiding swings. The center of mass would be correctly rendered, but would require the player to adjust his aim up or down according to who he was fighting. This would give massive advantages to a smaller or larger player wading into a large saber FFA battle, because all the normal sized players already engaged with like-sized enemies would be aiming either too high or too low to have a strong CSC value.

Not to mention what would happen if a diminutive Yoda came across a towering Wookie in a saber battle. Yoda would have to aim nearly straight up as he came within range, and the Wookie would have to look straight down. With the way the camera works, looking up would give the Yoda player a bad case of tunnel vision just when they needed their peripheral vision the most.

Making small players fast and weak and large players slow and strong does nothing to address these.

Both methods have their problems. Believe me, I've thought about this a lot. I don't want to see ProMod servers full of players using the Yoda model because everyone knows they'll be hacked up by a mob of green-eared Lilliputians if they choose anything larger. The only way to not add a balance problem is to avoid adjustable scaling entirely.


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Old 09-11-2002, 04:20 PM   #107
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Very good points, ArtifeX. There's also the fact that animations/attacks weren't set up to attack targets that far off your torso swing height. If the animations were dynamic it would be much easier but that's behound the scope of the game engine.


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Old 09-11-2002, 04:42 PM   #108
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Originally posted by razorace
Very good points, ArtifeX. There's also the fact that animations/attacks weren't set up to attack targets that far off your torso swing height. If the animations were dynamic it would be much easier but that's behound the scope of the game engine.
That's another great point. I forgot to mention that one. You can actually be looking completely level while ducked and do a Strong stance right+attack swing and go over the head of another ducked player if you're not careful.


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Old 09-11-2002, 05:18 PM   #109
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All good points to be sure.

I think you would have to have the center point of the model be just that, the center, reguardless of the player size. The larger players would have a higher center and the smaller players a lower one. You would have to adjust your aim in order to deal with the different size models. And if you lose out on some of your vision, so be it. Its the price you pay for the speed of the model.

The mod would have to be the one to state the size of the model. The player, or the server for that matter, should not have the ability to change model sizes. If you did that it would be a total mess. I do not allow the client to dictate size on my server...I did that a few times and it sucked bigtime. Nothing is more nuts than fighting a pint sized vader.

But say you went to three sizes. A small for yodas and the ugnaughts (0.6), then a mid size for the normal players (1.0), then a large size for vader and the wookies (as well as some others like jabba, etc) (1.25).

Then you would have three aiming variables. Also the head is harder to aim for but should be worth more damage than say center mass or the feet. I use the mod_skillmode in my Jedimod server and this setting does just that. If you go for the head the you can kill in one hit. You can use an overhead blow, lunge or a simple jumping saber swing, but the result is the same, you damage your head that much and your wearing a toe tag.

And yes larger slower players would be at a disadvantage against small yoda as far as getting major blows into the center mass of the target, but the same is true of yoda. You would just need more skill in this type of matchup.

The larger models would have a distinct advantage in an all out ffa match because of thier size, but it does balance out a little because of the speed reduction. Also I have fought many a yoda as a wookie or vader and I can still beat the crap out of them. Yes my attack stradegy is different, but thats the fun of it.

The whole point would be to offer a little more variety to gain a wider fan base for the mod. And yes skill adjustments would need to be made a lot more than it does now. But that is part of the challenge. As it is you have the same speed and size no matter who you are. The size changes add personality to the game as well as combat changes.

And you wuld never see a server full of yodas. I always have a very diverse crowd in my server, and in any Jedimod server. People like what they like and thats how they choose. I play as luke or the rebron master most of the time. Both are very close to std size. Very few people use a yoda all of the time. The novelty has worn off and now only the people who really want to be yoda choose him.

I think promod is quite realistic, much more so than any other mod or the original game itself. So add in the variety! When I use to kickbox or teah hand to hand combat in the Rangers you never could take the size of your opponent as a sign of how good the were. I had my butt kicked by some little guys in kickboxing, i am 6'4 225lbs, but i also kicked the crap out of guys way bigger than me in size and weight. Its not the size that matters but the tactics behind it.

Its your mod and you need to do it as you see fit, but the main reason people play Jedimod so much is the sheer variety of models, sizes, saber colors and the differences in the combat from reg JK2. Now I know you think the combat is the same, but trust me it is not even clos if you use all of the stances.

Thanks for listening to me and everyone about our opinions on your mod, and mods in general. I think we all want what is best for the players in the game.


Just play the game......do not complain about it!
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Old 09-12-2002, 12:44 AM   #110
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Personally I'd like to see different sizes. Yes, the size for each model should be stated by the mod. Otherwises it's completely chaos.

I'd like to suggest for the combined mod: When model scaling and purple/orange stances are not balanced yet, run two types of servers. Competitive ones don't support scaling and extra stances but support saber colors/hilts/same sized models; usual ones support everything while ArtifeX's choice 1 or 2 are both applicable. Then, as more and more extras are play tested and balanced and proven fair in competitions, these extras go into the competitive servers. In the end the two types of server would be the same. There should be one server variable in the mod to choose between the two types.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks for reading.
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Old 09-12-2002, 10:50 AM   #111
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A game can't have much will to survive when it's been gutted like this one has.
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Old 09-13-2002, 05:16 PM   #112
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I'll tell you why I stopped playing the game. For starters, it was because I had a crappy internet connection over the summer. But more than that, regardless of the patches that came out and how they fixed/screwed up the game, I just got bored.

JK2 is fundamentally focused around DM or duels. Plain and simple. Don't believe me? Look at the CTF model they have. It's cursory at best. The maps are boring, and I haven't found many other maps out there for CTF that interest me. Plus, I was (and still am) a big fan of RTCW and other class-based team games. I don't particularly like the free-for-all aspect of DM. It bores me. Spawn, kill, die, spawn again. >yawn< I've got better things to do with my time. For me at least, even within the SW universe, DM is only fun for about 10 min. After that, it's just the same old crap.

Add to that the various problems in game design and balance of the MP component to this game, and the fact that it required patches to fix (and then patches to fix the patches), and you have the recipe for a dull and lifeless game.

I've enjoyed messing around with JediMod, but as has been said, none of these change MY fundamental problem with the game, which is that it's all about the individual, and not about teamwork. If they came out with some sort of class-based, objective-focused mod for JK2 (basically RTCW with SW characters, powers, and classes) then I think I'd be quite into the game. But as it is, the actual gameplay itself has very little to offer someone like me. And I suspect that, while I'm certainly not in the majority, there are a lot of players out there like myself.
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Old 09-13-2002, 05:21 PM   #113
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*cough* Saga gametype already implimented *cough*


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Old 09-13-2002, 07:08 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solo4114


I've enjoyed messing around with JediMod, but as has been said, none of these change MY fundamental problem with the game, which is that it's all about the individual, and not about teamwork. If they came out with some sort of class-based, objective-focused mod for JK2 (basically RTCW with SW characters, powers, and classes) then I think I'd be quite into the game. But as it is, the actual gameplay itself has very little to offer someone like me. And I suspect that, while I'm certainly not in the majority, there are a lot of players out there like myself.

http://www.3dap.com/jediknight/jedifortress/ there is your class based game
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Old 09-18-2002, 04:51 AM   #115
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I was reading the other "The Reason JKO is Dying Thread..."

But I always come back to this one because I believe Solo4114 actually is telling it like it is, even if a lot of JKO fans don't want to hear it.

In addition, I tried Promod on a server under a different name (the message board name is not the one I play under) and while it does improve a lot of aspects of the game, no offense Artifex, it's still the same old DM, Dueling, TDM as before and I don't think any Mod that doesn't fudementally change the game into something NEW -- New being the key word to keep older players and interest newer ones -- Is going to help this game survive or keep my interest in it.

In other words, as another player on another thread somewhere regarding the JO community and Mods, what JKO needs is its version of Counter-Strike.

Not the game itself of course, but a total conversion that deviates from the standard DM, CTF, TDM and Dueling which is primarily what JKO is geared toward like Solo4114 said... But COULD be doing so much more with in a lot of respects given the team-oriented nature of the SW universe (Bounty Hunters, Gangsters, Jedis, Sith, Imperials, Trade Federation, etc.).

Even though n practice CS people run around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to be Rambo and get the most kills per round, the core concept took the tired old game types of DM and TDM and turned it into something completely different based on the games original engine.

That's the kind of Mods JKO is desperately in need of right now.

Not fifty billion window dressings Mods that are currently out there (and coming ).

That upcoming class-based, objective Mod is a good start.

What would be even better is if evolved into a less class based system so that team members could just be autonomous units (Bounty Hunters, Jedi, Sith, etc) and be equally matched if they wanted -- Kind of like CS -- So that if you are more into the Rambo type of gameplay, but want a more structured and objective based type of game other than CTF that would suit you just fine.

I mean, this is just merely a throw-away-suggestion since the Mod isn't even out yet... But it is thinking like this that the JKO Community needs to start thinking about if they want their game to continue to thrive and not just be a game that only a thousand or so people play.

I understand the goal is not to top other games in terms of players. That would be silly. But if you have a unique game type (Mod) that springs from an already popular game then chances are more people WILL play it, thus giving the game extended life for veteran players and newbies alike.

The other factor I wanted to touch on the very thing that Homosexual Ewok brought up in the other "Dying" thread is the attitudes of the players playing JKO and how a the way they treat newbies is often the main thing that drives away potential players who would have normally stayed and become part of the community.

A lot of us who play online games are NOT within the target demographic that originally was intended for the game... Even with the SW fanbase being so diverse.

Most games are aimed at the 13-25 year old age brackets. That's just fact.

But ironically, guess who is mostly playing online games?

People like myself who are in their late 20s and older (all the way up to 50s).

I'm bringing this up because obviously older players like myself are going to have and want somethnig different out of the games they play than someone younger than us.

I know for a fact that as I get older, I do want more team-oriented games and games that require using your wits as well as your weapons. JKO is just a "red-stance" spam fest thanks to Raven and to me, is very boring just like Solo4114 said which is I think why I mainly stopped playing (regardless of what Raven did or didn't do with their patches).

This is what I meant when I said it has no depth or skill to it in my previous post a few weeks ago.

In addition, DM (guns or sabers or both) is also very boring for someone like me because as you get older you DO lose some of your reflexes -- And more importantly, time to practice your moves as older players are holding full-time jobs, families and other real world, adult responsibilities versus the 13 year old who runs home from school and spends 5 hours a night honing their Blue Lunge because they don't have to worry about paying the rent, putting food on the table, etc.

I'm not trying to stereotype or depress anyone with these facts. I'm just stating the reality of the world outside online gaming.

The other factor about age and people playing the game is that the attitudes of younger players is 9 times out of 10 more geared toward competition and "owing" people to give themselves an ego boost whereas the older crowds are more toward "owing" people... But also RESPECTING them as well and just making sure everyone is having a good time because of... Maturity.

I realize I making broad generalizations and there are of course exceptions to every rule, but I think it is fair to say what I stated above is accurate as it pertains to online gaming in general. At least, it has been my personal experience, anyway.

Unfortunately, a lot of the younger and immature players (regardless of age) are the ones the new players meet, they get discouraged or pissed and decide the game isn't worth their time and leave. The sad part about all of this is that they weren't given the chance to even see if JKO is something they would like to be a part of, let alone be good at if given the time to develop their skills.

So. There are a lot of things to consider here and I hope everyone takes the time to do so as JKO may not be "dying" in teh strictest sense, but somethnig major is going to have to happen for it to be a game of any substance and staying power.
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Old 09-18-2002, 10:16 AM   #116
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...In addition, I tried Promod on a server under a different name (the message board name is not the one I play under) and while it does improve a lot of aspects of the game, no offense Artifex, it's still the same old DM, Dueling, TDM as before and I don't think any Mod that doesn't fudementally change the game into something NEW -- New being the key word to keep older players and interest newer ones -- Is going to help this game survive or keep my interest in it.

...So. There are a lot of things to consider here and I hope everyone takes the time to do so as JKO may not be "dying" in teh strictest sense, but somethnig major is going to have to happen for it to be a game of any substance and staying power.
It's coming. Really, it is coming.


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Old 09-19-2002, 08:33 PM   #117
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Why do people think JK2 is dying

As the question says.Why do people think JK2 is dying????????????


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Old 09-19-2002, 11:13 PM   #118
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Because everyone that has a sane mind left
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Old 09-20-2002, 04:37 AM   #119
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I doubt it is. JK1 had a down point where it looked like it would die, but it bumped back up.


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Old 09-20-2002, 05:11 AM   #120
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its cuz there is less and less servers now and servers are less congested than before, but,

Isn't there enough topic about this already?
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