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Old 09-27-2002, 08:03 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

You're hardly the example of maturity with your egotistical, arrogant better-than-thou comments, you may be 20-something but that doesn't make you more mature.
Wait a minute a here? You mean to say that sheep...err..spider-al is only in his 20's? HA!

You shouldn't make it personal with sheep...err...Spider-Al, the only posts he makes are flames trying to shoot down other peoples facts with wild claims of how powerful 1.04 sabers are

...thats right Raven's pawn, I said it!


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Old 09-29-2002, 01:30 AM   #42
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You work for Raven don't you
Ah, the time-honoured "conspiracy theory" outburst. Usually occurs when individual has run out of logical arguments. I suppose you think black helicopters watch your house, too, huh?

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You say I whine about weapons being too powerful? Have you gone mad?
I certainly hope not. My sanity is the most valuable thing I take for granted. Oh, except my freedom. Yeah.

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I complain about light saber being too weak and too slow!
And:

Quote:
wild claims of how powerful 1.04 sabers are
Yeah, you do complain about that a lot. But perhaps if you practiced with the sabre a little bit more, and as the gentleman who started the "Am I the only one that LIKES 1.04?" thread said re-learn your sabre techniques, it would be less of a soggy-bread-stick in your hands, and more of a mighty instrument of plasma-doom, as it is in my hands... Fner, and in the hands of many others. Fner.

It's quite simple: Person with 100/25 h/a attacks me. I sidestep, and with a single red-stance strike, the sabre held in a tight arc by my control, they are dead. They cannot block, because their sabre is in the middle of an attack. I timed it thus.

Surely you've managed this by now? 1.04's been out a long time. I practice it in Guns FFA.

Oh and thanks for not answering any of the steely questions posed in my previous post, Fatal.

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Spider, I used to respect you as a player,
OH NOS!!11 Sorry Det, all pretence of horror aside, this means nothing to me. Your behaviour towards me has never been respectful, so whether you respected me inside your head or not, has little relevance. Personally I view you as a pleasant fellow who can take a drubbing and give one back, but I don't think we're close enough to have serious respect going on, know what I mean?

Quote:
it seems now you've lost all competition you're afraid of a few gameplay tweaks.
Well, contrary to popular knowledge there is one thing in this world that Spider AL fears. I'll tell you what it is: Another 1.03. Oh yes, I admit it freely, the idea of another 1.03 scares the poop out of me. I just get my lovely 1.02 dynamic back, and already the morlocks have come out of the woodwork again and are ranting about changing the game balance TO BE BETTAR. Don't trust it, don't want it, not interested, game's fine, enough people have left already don't want any more to leave so leave the damn game be. Simple as that.

Quote:
You're hardly the example of maturity with your egotistical, arrogant better-than-thou comments
Uh-huh. Well "better-than-thou" is the mood on these forums Det, in case you hadn't noticed. One camp hates the other camp. However, I flatter myself that I don't descend into petty bickering, nor do I swear at or defame those in the other camp, even when they do so to me. So I think I'm pretty squeaky-clean on that front, thank you for asking.

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you may be 20-something
Oh if only I was 20-something. I could buy alcohol and stuff.

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but that doesn't make you more mature.
You're correct! What makes me more mature is the fact that I back up my assertions with direct quotes where possible and necessary, and refrain from the childish name-calling which so prevails these days on JK2.net's forums.

Quote:
have respect for other people instead of for your own selfish aims.
Ohh of course. Attempting to dissuade some misguided individuals from their maniacal plans to further damage and fragment JO as a game, and the community thereof, is selfish. Well, I suppose in a way it's selfish. I like JO. I've been interested in, playing, and exploring JO since before its release, and I'll be damned if I see it dragged through another ditch. So yes, I myself enjoy the game. I don't want to lose my most funnest computer game a second time thank you very much. Selfish then? Sure.

Quote:
You still refusing to take part in any competition which doesn't offer prizes for winning?
Sure. When you take competition as seriously as I do, you don't want to stress yourself out immensely, and waste hours and hours of training time on a tournament that just gives you a little Jpeg at the end of it. Been there, done that. Actually, the Wireplay tournament didn't even give me a Jpeg. Rah!

Oh, by the way, why do you ask?


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Old 09-29-2002, 03:00 AM   #43
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20 something is old?
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Old 09-29-2002, 03:45 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL

I suppose you think black helicopters watch your house, too, huh?
No...they don't just watch it, they land wake me up at night and force me to make them waffles....
.

Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
Oh and thanks for not answering any of the steely questions posed in my previous post, Fatal.
You are more then welcome. I have answered the same silly questions too many time already, I feel no need to answer them again. Also please note that there is no steel in your questions, just the same pathetic fluff and nonsense that has always been.

Spider/Sheep - AL answer this one...

If you had to make a gameplay change what would it be?

I would like to see you give an opinion instead of flaming them for a change.


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Old 09-29-2002, 03:46 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by lilJedi
20 something is old?
God I hope not.


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Old 09-29-2002, 09:28 AM   #46
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I still don't get why many people toss the word "nerf" around so much...

It's got an entirely new meaning, it appears. Maybe you all should consider using the words "toned down" or "adjusted", then your views might be more clear to some people.


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Old 09-29-2002, 06:17 PM   #47
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Spider, theres no need for name calling, turn that frown upside down friend of friends. I sincerely hope your cancer ridden wrinkled meat of a liver doesn't fall through your rosy red rectum and out of your pus filled anus u mother of a 3 nippled jackel named deborah.
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Old 09-29-2002, 07:36 PM   #48
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yeha'




I'd like you all to meet my family.
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Old 09-29-2002, 08:03 PM   #49
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Unlike 1.03, 1.04 is fairly playable, unlikely as it is I'd welcome a 1.05 if I was confident that they were capable of getting it right this time, Im not though.


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Old 09-30-2002, 07:45 AM   #50
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Hmm my post was a little harsh, must have been late or something...

Anyway the point I was making before is that I feel that to in order to evade an attack you must at least have the beginnings of "skill", just sticking some force power into saber defence and firing it up, making you immune to most rapid weapons and sniper fire, somewhat cheapens the skill of decent gunners. If there was something which made saber blocking have the same effectiveness IF you do something which requires skill it might work... I dunno maybe have it so that to block rage-enhanced stormie rifle fire you need to be using speed or rage yourself. Of course this implementation might unbalance the game in other ways.

I'm just trying to get people to accept that there ARE still many gameplay flaws in the game, and a patch would be sensible, but only if Raven can come up with an innovative way of doing this without drastically affecting the dynamics of the game like 1.03 and 1.04. Changes that the average player wouldn't notice without looking for them.
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Old 09-30-2002, 08:07 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
I'm just trying to get people to accept that there ARE still many gameplay flaws in the game, and a patch would be sensible, but only if Raven can come up with an innovative way of doing this without drastically affecting the dynamics of the game like 1.03 and 1.04. Changes that the average player wouldn't notice without looking for them.
Couldn't agree more

I dont think its what Raven should do for a future patch, it should be close to 1.04 like you say but I respect Artifex for what he's trying with promod.


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Old 09-30-2002, 10:30 PM   #52
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answer this one...
You answer one of mine first Fatal, and then I'll answer yours. You have to learn the balance of give and take in a relationship, son. Don't expect a civil conversation if you're going to troll message boards and start arguments. One must be a realist, in this world.

Vega:

Quote:
I sincerely hope your cancer ridden wrinkled meat of a liver doesn't fall through your rosy red rectum and out of your pus filled anus u mother of a 3 nippled jackel named deborah.
That's nice dear. You must be the life and soul of every party, with scintillating conversation like that. Are you sure you aren't related to Fatal? There's a certain likeness around the eyes...

Detritic:

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Hmm my post was a little harsh, must have been late or something...
Ahh, well vis-a-vis your comments in that post, restraint is what defines maturity in many cases. A lesson worth learning, Det.

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I'm just trying to get people to accept that there ARE still many gameplay flaws in the game
But there are no such things as "gameplay flaws."

The only aspects of a game which can be described as flaws, are bugs. Bugs like overpowered backswing, spinning DFA, hovering light-lunge, the "invisible" skin etc. What you're trying to "get people to accept" is your personal opinion of what the game should be like. People who want to make their gaming dreams come true should be like Arti, and make a mod... because that is theirs, and they can do with it whatever they wish.

However, we've seen what happens when people pressure a company into releasing a patch that caters to their idea of what the game should be like, and it was 1.03. People mostly disliked 1.03 because of the bugs, yes, but also because of the nerfing of the guns. You must remember that a lot of people LIKED the nerfing of the guns, because they were not gunners...

And their opinion is at least as valid as yours. REMEMBER THAT. And as valid as mine. We all have a right to our opinions and they are all valid, but NOBODY should be allowed to interfere with the game as it stands, moulding it into what they think is an "improved version." If I were to be given the opportunity to re-make the game in my own image, god knows what it would end up like... My idea of a good game, (as I'm constantly reminded by the sabre freaks and even gunners who can't withstand my combos,) is not the same as everyone else's idea of a good game. Thankfully I don't have that option, and thankfully neither do you.

Don't try to obtain the option. A large proportion of people wanted the changes implemented in 1.03. Does that make 1.03 good? No. Does it make them right? No. Being a majority didn't make them intelligent, it didn't make them qualified, it didn't make them right. So what makes you think you're right? what makes you think you have the right to change the game at all? You may consider yourself very skilled, you may think you're a qualified CTF expert... But that doesn't mean you understand what makes people enjoy Jedi Outcast.

I certainly don't understand why people who obviously can't use guns or force powers... or any sabre stance but light, can possibly enjoy the game. They do though.

So suppose a committee of the players on the right side of expert got together, and suppose we decided that light stance was useless and was therefore dead weight. Suppose we decided that the DEMP was a useless gun and got rid of it. Suppose we decided that there was no point in being able to turn invisible, and so we got rid of Mind-Trick.

Who knows how many players we'd alienate with our highly expert and informed decisions? Sure we could scoff and call them newbies, and say that the community was better off without them... But newbies have as much right to enjoy the game as we do.

Bugs fixed? YES. Patches SHOULD BE CREATED TO FIX BUGS.

But alter gameplay balance? NO. NEVER.

You may think the game would be improved by the empowerment of the Tenloss against the sabre, but you have no concept of what such a change would bring about. Nobody does.

Who knows. A whole load of snipers from CS, UT and TFC could start playing JO, and it could make the community bigger... But think about it for a minute. Advanced players would use the sniper rifles more, and soon we'd become dependant on those guns to provide a higher proportion of our kills. The rifle has an effectively infinite range, so we wouldn't even have to wade over to the other side of the map to kill people anymore. What do you think would happen? Here's one possible effect: It could frighten away all the players who have ENOUGH trouble avoiding the sniper shots of myself and other advanced players already, that's what could happen. It could decimate the community, make it even smaller.

An example: One doesn't kill off a species in order to see if the ecosystem they were a part of runs more efficiently without them. It might well do. It doesn't matter. The risk is too great.

Remember this too: Nerfing half the game features is the same as empowering the other half. It's not a question of nerfing being bad or empowering being good, or vice versa. It's a question of balance.

The game balance in 1.04 is quite simply the way it is. There are aspects of 1.02 which I think were better, and which I think should be re-introduced, and that's my opinion... but what's important is that people who play the game NOW should be catered for. They should be allowed to enjoy the game while it lasts, they should be allowed to appreciate the game balance as they KNOW AND UNDERSTAND IT. Change the game, and it's a different game. It might be better, it might be worse. You won't be able to predict which, and you won't have any idea of the ramifications.

Therefore: LEAVE IT ALONE.

Personally I'm apprehensive enough about what changes Raven will cook up if and when they release an expansion + patch. My nerves couldn't stand another 1.03 at this stage.

Well, I think that was quite thorough. If those who seek to change things can't see the folly of even well-intentioned and innocuous gameplay changes by now, god knows what could make them see it.

"Force Wilful Blindness" is perhaps the one thing that could be safely excised from the JO community without damaging the surrounding tissue.


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 09-30-2002, 10:56 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alimet
Only thing I don't like about JO right now is FF Saber fights, specially in CTF, just turn in to kickin wars. Just screws the shields and goes right for the health, what kinda saber fightin is that?
I couldn't agree more!!!

That's why EVERYONE should be using PROMOD!!! If there is a new patch, Promod is what it should be -it's the way the game should have been from the start!!!
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Old 10-01-2002, 03:52 AM   #54
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Some good points Spider, I stand by my bug-fix suggestions though. I've recently got access to a low-ping connection and sniping is A LOT easier.
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Old 10-01-2002, 04:35 PM   #55
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Spider first off I do answer your questions when they are more then silly requests to look up past quotes or heavily slanted questions that do not merit response. You seem to pride yourself in wording questions to your advantage, yet what you fail to realize is that anyone with a half a brain will recognize this tactic and ignore the question. Try to word a question in a way that inspires response, instead of asking a “why are you an idiot” type question to which there can be no intelligent response other then ignoring it completely.

In your previous post claim someone is trying to get people to accept their personal opinion, yet you claim that the BS and spinning DFA were bugs. That is your in fact your own personal opinion which you attempt to shove down anyone’s throat that dares to question the changes made to the game. Yet you use "personal opinion" as an argument, are you trying to be ironic, or do you just not understand the ridiculousness of your claim?

You claim that I need to understand the "give and take" principle of debate although you have yet to grace us with any ideas of your own and instead have compiled 284 (at last check) posts on critiques and flames.

You fail to acknowledge what is obvious to all that 1.04 has caused more damage to the over all game then it has fixed. Guns are far superior and 1.04 has destroyed the ability for saber users and gunners to play together. Yet you still claim that only bugs were sixed an that no game play changes were made.....


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Old 10-01-2002, 10:54 PM   #56
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In your previous post claim someone is trying to get people to accept their personal opinion, yet you claim that the BS and spinning DFA were bugs. That is your in fact your own personal opinion
Wrong. lol you really do make it so easy sometimes. It's not my opinion, Raven have stated categorically that backstab damage was incorrectly ramped in 1.03, which was a mistake, which constitutes a bug. In case there was any doubt about the bugs in 1.03, here's a few choice snippets from the 1.04 readme file:

Quote:
* Corrected bug allowing players to pivot while executing backstab moves in all stances. Players may no longer pivot when executing these moves.

* Fixed bug causing force pull to be unblockable by people with equal or greater pull rank.

* Corrected an exploit which allowed players to fall from large heights at a slow rate.
So there we have it, bugs bugs bugs, incontrivertably bugs, unintentional, not intended, bugs. Just read your own 1.04 readme file mate.

Bugs fixed. HAPPAY R WE.

Quote:
are you trying to be ironic, or do you just not understand the ridiculousness of your claim?
Heh heh heh, I'll tell you what's ironic, you base your entire argument on a flawed premise, and then triumphantly accuse me of not understanding the ridiculousness of MY claims? Tee hee hee.

You've tickled my humour-gland there mate.



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Spider first off I do answer your questions when they are more then silly requests
Oh I consider all your questions silly, so thank you for absolving me of the responsibility to have to explain to you exactly why they're silly by answering them.

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You seem to pride yourself in wording questions to your advantage, yet what you fail to realize is that anyone with a half a brain will recognize this tactic and ignore the question.
Anyone with half a brain would know that asking questions is inherently disadvantaging oneself in a debate. If one was merely interested in winning an argument, one would never ask non-rhetorical questions at all, because giving an opponent the opportunity to retort to one of your points is not a victory-engendering move.

The fact is that you have failed to answer my questions because you knew those questions demanded answers that would either have exposed your inexperience for all to see, or exposed you as an obvious liar if you had answered them untruthfully. Silence sometimes speaks volumes, my young friend.

Quote:
you have yet to grace us with any ideas of your own and instead have compiled 284 (at last check) posts on critiques and flames.
Heh heh heh. Generalise much? Or have you actually read all 284 of my previous posts? But frankly son, if you're incapable of comprehending my ideas, it's not my fault.

Quote:
You fail to acknowledge what is obvious to all that 1.04 has caused more damage to the over all game then it has fixed.
Oho, obvious to all is it? Generalisations are getting out of hand there son. And 1.03 (buggy aspects of which you loved with a passion I might add) caused all the damage. 1.04 fixed most of it.

Quote:
Guns are far superior and 1.04 has destroyed the ability for saber users and gunners to play together.
WAHAHAAhh, Oh this is priceless. Even after all this time, the "GUNZ R TOO POWARFOL" whiners are still around, and they are Fatalstrike. My friend, a Jedi with a sackfull of guns AND a sabre will beat a Jedi with just a sabre. LIVE with it, and if you want to "0wn0rz wit da sab0r" alone, then you'll have to play sabres only. That's the way the game is, that's the way 1.02 was, that's the way JK1 was. Whining's getting so old. Five years old, now. Stale. Give it up.


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Old 10-02-2002, 02:22 AM   #57
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gunners would actually have had the advantage in 1.03, if not for the pull/backstab, but since the nerfing of bs, the advantage became more obvious.
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Old 10-02-2002, 11:04 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL


Wrong. lol you really do make it so easy sometimes. It's not my opinion, Raven have stated categorically that backstab damage was incorrectly ramped in 1.03, which was a mistake, which constitutes a bug. In case there was any doubt about the bugs in 1.03, here's a few choice snippets from the 1.04 readme file:



So there we have it, bugs bugs bugs, incontrivertably bugs, unintentional, not intended, bugs. Just read your own 1.04 readme file mate.

Bugs fixed. HAPPAY R WE.
Everything they have "fixed" has been labeled a "bug" what did you expect them to say. "Stopped BS pivot because whiners like spider-al requested it?" Hmm.....

You obviously have no office experience if you have yet to learn the wonderful ways of "corporate phrasing" which is to make everything the buyer doesn't like look accidental. After all you don't want your customers to think that percieved screw-up was in fact your actual design. That is bad for business.



Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
Heh heh heh, I'll tell you what's ironic, you base your entire argument on a flawed premise, and then triumphantly accuse me of not understanding the ridiculousness of MY claims? Tee hee hee.

You've tickled my humour-gland there mate.
It is still your opinion mate. You fail to realize that the BS pivoted in 1.02 and had Raven really based its "bug" fixes on testing, any programmer worth half his @ss would have seen it then. Funny how something they call a "bug" was ignored by them in the 1.03 patch. Maybe its because it wasn't a bug until whiners like YOU got them to nerf every other effective strong attack and suddenly there was only one left, thus making it a "bug."

I just realized that you have no clue about 1.02 at all. No wonder you keep bringing up 1.03, its because thats the only thing you can compare 1.04 with. HA!


Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
Oh I consider all your questions silly, so thank you for absolving me of the responsibility to have to explain to you exactly why they're silly by answering them.
LoL any question you can't answer is silly? Yeah I guess that is easier than admiting that you are wrong.


Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
The fact is that you have failed to answer my questions because you knew those questions demanded answers that would either have exposed your inexperience for all to see, or exposed you as an obvious liar if you had answered them untruthfully. Silence sometimes speaks volumes, my young friend.
I have answered your silly questions and you have flamed my answers when you were proven wrong. You seem to be no more than a mind numb fool with no opinion of your own that agrees with every move Raven makes. Did you get that T-shirt yet?



Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
Heh heh heh. Generalise much? Or have you actually read all 284 of my previous posts? But frankly son, if you're incapable of comprehending my ideas, it's not my fault.
Oho! How many threads have you started? How many ideas have you given? I haven't seen any, and I have seen most of your posts. I have however noticed that you do flame a lot and never voive your own ideas. You just tell everyone that 1.04 is best and that everyone should shut up if they disagree.

I like the fact that you have no valid reply to my accusation other then asking if I read all you posts. Pathetic retort, even for you.



Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
Oho, obvious to all is it? Generalisations are getting out of hand there son. And 1.03 (buggy aspects of which you loved with a passion I might add) caused all the damage. 1.04 fixed most of it.
Are you are complete moron or do you not remember that I have posted that I do not like 1.03?

1.04 made the gap between sabers and guns even wider then it was. If you actually played CTF you would know this. Then again you don't play CTF and you dont know jack about 1.02.



Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
WAHAHAAhh, Oh this is priceless. Even after all this time, the "GUNZ R TOO POWARFOL" whiners are still around, and they are Fatalstrike. My friend, a Jedi with a sackfull of guns AND a sabre will beat a Jedi with just a sabre. LIVE with it, and if you want to "0wn0rz wit da sab0r" alone, then you'll have to play sabres only. That's the way the game is, that's the way 1.02 was, that's the way JK1 was. Whining's getting so old. Five years old, now. Stale. Give it up.
HAHAHAHAHA you have really outdone yourself this time. You think that gunners had the advantages they do in 1.04 back in 1.02? HAHAHAHAHAHA

You complete oaf, 1.02 had pull + BS, and a whole range of deadly attack that 1.03 did not have. HAHAHA you have shown that you have no idea what 1.02 was.

Also I don't want to dominate a gunner with a saber, I simply would like it fast enough and strong enough to stand a chance against good competition. Like I did in 1.02 (but then again you know nothing about 1.02 do you RavenSheep-Al?)


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Old 10-02-2002, 12:20 PM   #59
Spider AL
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Everything they have "fixed" has been labeled a "bug" what did you expect them to say.
Ahhh I understand, you think that only you have the divine right to decide what is a bug and what isn't... and when Raven insists both prior to, and after the release of the patch that backstab was buggy, THEY R LIEING!!!11

My young friend, you must learn humility. And sanity, though I'm not sure that's something that can be learned.

Quote:
You obviously have no office experience
If I didn't know better, I'd think you were sniffing something. Where do these insane assertions come from? I find the manic processes of your brain fascinating.

"YUO HAV OBVIOUSLY NEVAR RIDDEN AN ELEFANT OR A DOLFIN!!!11"

Quote:
the BS pivoted in 1.02 and had Raven really based its "bug" fixes on testing, any programmer worth half his @ss would have seen it then
The fact is that one of the few people to who ever bothered to research the backswing as a killer move in 1.02, Artifex, asserted that it was only more powerful than the DFA when the opponent was immobilised, perhaps stuck against a wall or backed into a corner.

This was so because of the BATSABRE effect. rotation was normally irrelevant because on the first hit the opponent was knocked away a small distance, enough to escape further damage.

In 1.03, the batsabre effect was removed, and so backswing became a problem as multiple hits were automatic, making it a one-hit-kill.

Therefore your entire argument is completely and utterly worthless. Please research your points better. This is getting far too easy.

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I just realized that you have no clue about 1.02 at all.
SnnNNxxx.... Here's that "ironicalnesses" again...

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LoL any question you can't answer is silly? Yeah I guess that is easier than admiting that you are wrong.
Aha! You finally admit your cowardly reasons for ignoring all my questions. Thank you.

Oh, and I like the selective capitalisation in that "lol." Very AOL, most quaint.

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You think that gunners had the advantages they do in 1.04 back in 1.02? HAHAHAHAHAHA
My goodness, if laughing is healthy you must be... I dunno, an exercise instructor by now. Sorry son, gunners won in every 1.02 game. Gunners actually won in every 1.03 game, but the backswingers made proportionately higher scores.

Once again I say it: A Jedi with a sackfull of guns AND a sabre, will ALWAYS beat a Jedi with just a sabre.

Now LIVE WITH THAT.

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Oho! How many threads have you started? How many ideas have you given?
Why don't you go and read all my past posts to find out, my son.

Here's a question for you: How many threads have you participated in without insulting someone? Now go and count them.

You may have to take your socks off in the process of counting them, just to forewarn you.

Quote:
If you actually played CTF you would know this. Then again you don't play CTF
/me vainly tries to restrain himself from snorting a greenie onto his keyboard.

I don't play CTF? Ohh-kay. If you say so son... That must be my brother who plays CTF then. My identical twin brother. Who was separated from me at birth. But who pops in every day, knocks me out and plays CTF under my name...

Must be him.

Quote:
1.02 had pull + BS,
Sorry mate, it wasn't an automatic one-hit-kill back in 1.02. Wrong again...

Quote:
and a whole range of deadly attack that 1.03 did not have.
Ooh all the deadly attack eh. Well you'll get no argument from me on that score, 1.03 which you loved so much took away all the interesting force power attacks and most of the guns effectiveness over long term, but left a load of bugs in its wake. It was truly a terrible patch.

As a matter of fact it's worth mentioning that 1.02 had its own one-hit kill which I pioneered in Europe, the pull/overhead/DFA, killing the prone person adjacent to one instantly. Ever manage that as a regular move? In fact, ever managed the one-hit-kill overhead strike in 1.04?

Perhaps the reason you love 1.03 so much is that no one-hit-kill is as easy now as backswing was in 1.03. The sad thing is that the skilled players won all the 1.03 games too. If 1.04 hadn't have been introduced you'd have been lobbying for changes to 1.03 right now, lobbying for the lightsabre to be powered up even more, because you'd have finally realised that there is no way that running around waving only a breadstick will ever overcome anyone.

Fortunately for the rest of us, there's always the option to practice until the breadstick becomes a sabre o' doom.


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 10-02-2002, 01:00 PM   #60
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All of your statements on 1.02 are completely wrong.

We can't compare the changes made by Raven if you have no grip on what those changes were.

Say what you want but I play 1.02 daily and won't be disproven by a fool that never played it.

Also pull BS has been used in saber only CTF in 1.02 since DAY ONE. So if you played CTF you would know that. You would also know that gunners had a hard time in 1.02 because swinging your saber didn't slow you down and pull and push resulted in frequent knock-downs. Hard to shoot from your backside and its easy to dodge and attack without slow-downs.

The more you speak the more obvious it is that you don't know jack about this game.

If you want to believe that Raven missed this "bug" go ahead, but it was widely used in CTF and there is no way Raven would have missed it. It wasn't a bug until whiners like you had everything "toned down" and BS was left over powered as the result.


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Old 10-02-2002, 01:03 PM   #61
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Originally posted by Spider AL



Perhaps the reason you love 1.03 so much is that no one-hit-kill is as easy now as backswing was in 1.03. The sad thing is that the skilled players won all the 1.03 games too. If 1.04 hadn't have been introduced you'd have been lobbying for changes to 1.03 right now, lobbying for the lightsabre to be powered up even more, because you'd have finally realised that there is no way that running around waving only a breadstick will ever overcome anyone.
.
Silly sheep, again with the "I love 1.03" accusations? I have 1.02 and 1.04 loaded on my PC I hate 1.03. Then again I know the reason you keep switching the comparison form 1.02 to 1.03 is because you don't know anything about 1.02.

1.03 was caused by morons like you that shake in fear of "one hit kills"


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Old 10-02-2002, 10:40 PM   #62
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1.04 had it's own type of balance. It's a completely different type of gameplay now. 1.02=most balanced. 1.03=art of bs. 1.04=art of kicking. Seriously, kicking is the only effective weapon in saber only ctf. Only a direct hit with heavy will do decent damage now. Sure you may master it, but at what cost? Kicking is a far better in the beginning and end, overall.

Heavy is pretty much baby-crawl speed now, and people with even below-average reflexes can dodge it fairly easy. I just went into a 1.04 server with CTF and good damn it, it was horrid! Nobody died ONCE in a decent amount of time. (3 minutes for being generous.) I held the flag easy. Once in every 5 mins I get 50 dm to health. No problem, I drain or heal. I would kill better with a bryar there, and I'm not that good..........I never played 1.02 ctf, but I heard JK++ was similar to it, and I played that a lot......

The saber is not worth mastering when far better beginning alternatives are given. Light does jack-****, medium is same dm as light, and only a fool would be hit by their specials. It takes 3 lunges to kill a non-saber opponent and a good one will never be hit by one. You would be better off landing a dfa in NF, as it gives you a little speed advantage..........Guns have LONG-RANGE, much better dm, area clearing abilities, and more! The saber, well, pretty much weak. Pull is only useful at close range, and it wont even garantee a knockdown, and that may cause you your doom.

1.02, guns were fairly easy to counter. The saberist should be fast, agile (rolls+walkwalks), and powerful (saber) to fight a gunner. When I kill in 1.02, I preferred the saber than the gun if I had to choose. It was a efficent weapon, and I held my place in the top 3 with the saber to the gunners. It's still a bit unbalanced in the FFA catergory still, but that's what you get when you got area weapons. 1.04 saber, weak and heavy is slow.

BTW a bug is a glitch in the programming. A pivot bs was not a bug, it's just deemed an exploit. Strafe running was orignally an exploit you know? Crashing and such is a BUG! AKA taken from dictionary.com: Computer Science. A defect in the code or routine of a program.

That's just my 2 cents...........


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Old 10-03-2002, 09:45 AM   #63
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Nice post Omega, I'm glad someone out there isn't a Raven apologist.

1.04 saber only CTF is a joke I played once and just to prove a point held the flag for 30 minutes. People say "sure you can do that if you just run all the time" but in 1.02 you could run all you wanted but you still died unless you were one of the very best players.

As far as weapons v saber, weapons will always have the advantage of attacking sabers from beyond a sabers reach, but in 1.02 you didn't slow down for every little thing you did. You could attack quickly and strike with strong effective hits. The specials in 1.04 are a joke and so is the idea of hitting a gunner with heavy stance.

If it was up to me I would have kept 1.02 as is and would have added the ProMod blocking system. 1.02 lacked blocking, they should have added it and left the rest alone.


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Old 10-03-2002, 10:29 AM   #64
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That's why EVERYONE should be using PROMOD!!! If there is a new patch, Promod is what it should be -it's the way the game should have been from the start!!!
I completely agree.

ProMod is not finished yet...but in its current state it reflects how saber combat should be. Ironically JK2/ProMod now plays and feels more like Raven's old game Heretic2 but for a far more detail attack system in JK2/PM. There appears to be a right way and a wrong way to do melee combat and JK/PM and H2 are the only PC fighters that I've played that get it right, and I've played them all.

I hope newer versions of ProMod don't become to muddled with superfluous content but hold true to the "enhance and improve" theme that started it.

You don't need a patch if your using ProMod. Balance is now very strong. Force powers are starting to feel just about right, providing support for saber combat and nothing more - "there is now balance in the force." Lucas Arts should just release ProMod as the patch.
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Old 10-04-2002, 08:31 AM   #65
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I play 1.02 daily and won't be disproven by a fool that never played it.
I see Fatal, a pattern is emerging here... First you accuse me of working for Raven, then you accuse me of never playing CTF, for a third example you maintain that everyone except me alone agrees with your point of view, and now you insist beyond the shadow of a doubt that I've never played 1.02? You'll forgive me if I chuckle in a superior manner. Ahahaha.

Your feeble and fumbling attempts at ripostes merely show your ignorance, as you can't type a paragraph without resorting to gross generalisation and laughable, childish untruth. Only a buffoon of the lowest order would flap around in the wildly cyclical dance that you have demonstrated in this thread.

I was winning 1.02 CTF games when you were whining about heal in some duel server somewhere. I was devising duel tactics when you were screaming "WAT R J00 PPL DOING DEFEND OUR FLAGG!!!111" in some low grade sabres only no-force no-moving CTF server somewhere.

As for 1.03, which you love so much because of its mega-easy one-hit-kills and leet hovering skillz, I was winning tournaments using every technique in 1.03 when you were still figuring out how to run around backwards.

Face it Fatal, you're a rank amateur. This is why you hold to the ludicrous opinion that guns were somehow easy to counter in 1.02. There was nothing that excited me more in 1.02 than seeing some sabre-crazy imbecile running helter-skelter towards me, as long as I was holding a gun. During my extensive 1.02 career, it was painfully obvious to me exactly how useless sabres-only skills were in guns FFA. The fact that you have to bring pull/push up at all is a testament to the fact that you never figured out how to keep absorb going almost indefinitely, a skill which behooved all players of mediocre skill upwards.

Frankly the problem here is that those who believe sabres are too weak in 1.04 are still on that portion of the learning curve before the realisation of how weak they truly are.

When one realises how laughable any attempt to match the sabre to the gun is, one is prepared for the next step: To learn how to use the guns. When one has learned how to use the guns, one has learned their weaknesses, and when and how to exploit them using the sabre. It's cyclical. First you accept the natural advantages of the guns, then you learn that sabres have their uses in certain situations. But, you will never attain this level of skill unless you first let go of the desire to use the sabre all the time.

If you can't see that, it's nobody's problem but your own.

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1.04 saber only CTF is a joke
I think that statement requires a certain amount of amendment.

Perhaps it should be modified to "Saber only CTF is a joke." Yes, that fits.

What kind of nonsense is sabres-only CTF. A bunch of people madly trying to chase each other round, when everyone with the slightest ounce of sense has speed and absorb, or rage on maps without pits. I think Bruce Lee described it best. "Organised Despair." Sabres only CTF has the worst dynamic of any game mode released with the game, and always has done. It took yours truly about two days of playing it using 1.02 to realise this fundamental factoid. Not to say I didn't win the games I played though. I just didn't enjoy it. Similar to 1.03 which you love so dearly, in many respects.

Oh, and I also note that you've started calling me a "whiner." Very mature of you, and I note that it is not I who is currently throwing a hissy-fit trying to get Raven to change the game to accomodate my inflexible style of play.

No, it's you. Therefore if anyone is a "whiner," it is also you. Vaya con Dios, Troll.

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The saber is not worth mastering when far better beginning alternatives are given.
Well Omega, this is an interesting point and though I addressed it above, I think it deserves special attention.

What IS the sabre? It's a melee weapon. Against whom is it useful? Those with:

A: other melee weapons,

B: weak, non-explosive weaponry (ie. weaponry that can be blocked, in the case of a lightsabre)

C: no weapons at all.

This is the rule for all melee weapons, in real life too. Now I'm not saying that the game should reflect real life, far from it. I'm merely pointing out the inherent weakness in a weapon that requires you to be in close proximity to your opponent.

For the sabre to have ANY effect, one must first get close enough to hit the enemy with the sabre.

Now instantly, it becomes clear that there's an extra skill involved in wielding this weapon, the skill to get in close.

So a gunner appears, and he has to cultivate a different skill: The skill of keeping his distance.

And the gunner has a natural advantage, because while the sabre-wielder must be a CERTAIN distance from his opponent in order to damage him, the gunner can be almost ANY distance from the sabre-wielder, and still damage him.

So all the gunner has to do to prevail over a sabre-wielder, is cultivate enough skill in running away to survive, and the gun will take care of the rest.

This is quite simply the way things are. I'm a confirmed sabre-addict, but I accept this without question, because to overcome the inherent disadvantage in the guns/sabre relationship, one would have to make gameplay changes of 1.03 proportions. And 1.03, as most people (with the notable exception of Fatal) agree, was all bad.

I play sabres-only FFA regularly, and while it's a pleasant diversion and all that, nothing replaces duel for sabre-goodness. Likewise nothing replaces JO Guns FFA for the fastest, most dynamic, most explosive FPS game in the world.

In my view, sabres are at their best in 1 on 1 contests, when the opponent also has a sabre. One must remember that in JO, all players are playing the role of Jedi. Whether they shoot each other or stab each other is irrelevant, and therefore the inherent bias towards the player willing to use guns, is also irrelevant, unless one wishes to be all "SW fanboy" about the whole thing. And frankly, it's always been the same. From JK, to JO, to JO 1.03, to JO 1.04. The gunners always won.

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BTW a bug is a glitch in the programming. A pivot bs was not a bug, it's just deemed an exploit. ... AKA taken from dictionary.com: Computer Science. A defect in the code or routine of a program.
Sorry my friend, but your initial premise is flawed. That's a programmer's definition of a bug, not a gamer's. In the gaming world (which has its own terminology, that you should be familiar with) a bug is any aspect of a game which does not operate as the manufacturer intended. E.g: Rocket Jumping in Quake 1, was a bug. The effect and the usefulness of it, was not intended by the programmers. The game didn't crash because of it, but it was nevertheless in gaming terminology, a bug.

We can argue about semantics all day if you like, but the word "bug" has been in such common use for so long, to describe unexpected gameplay points as well as program-critical flaws, that game programmers now use it for both as well. It's hardly worth the discussion, don't you agree? We both know what we're referring to when we use the words "bug" or "exploit," so unless you intend to be perverse and stubborn about it, we can both agree on the salient point: That the overpowering of BS in 1.03 was not intended by Raven, and they removed it because it was a seriously imbalancing move.


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 10-04-2002, 09:58 AM   #66
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Glad you got a good laugh spider but I still see no evidence that you know anything about 1.02.

-You're wrong about the BS in 1.02
-You're wrong about saber v guns in 1.02
-You're pathetic Speed and absorb strat is pathetic and would only serve to get you killed in 1.02

That last speed and abosrb comment was so green that if I wasn't sure of it before, you have just proven me right with that stupid comment. You have no clue which strats work in 1.02 CTF.

Now you're trying to counter my accusations with insults, and no facts. That's fine but to anyone who actually plays the game its pretty obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. You insist on telling that I like 1.03 even I have stated it is utter garbage. In fact its people like you who wanted to get rid of powerful hits that brought about 1.03. It is you who advocates Raven's "nerf=fix" method, not me.

You over simplified the saber by calling it a melee weapon. A chain saw, is a melee weapon. A saber was more then a simple melee weapon that once had EFFECTIVE special attacks (which people like you whined about and they removed) it once had speed (which "Real Jedi" whined about and had removed) and it once had strength (which noobs whineds about and had removed). So while Omega and I are right in saying sabers in 1.02 were strong against weapons. However since people like you spider/sheep that considered 1.02 to have too many strong attacks started whining the saber has become nothing more then a average melee weapon and is laughable against guns.

So to sum it all up nice and simple for you.

I don't like 1.03

I like 1.02

You don't know jack sh^t about 1.02

Your claims about saber only CTF are laughable and only seem to come from 1.04 CTF

You insist that I like 1.03 because its easier for you to discuss then 1.02, since you have no knowledge of 1.02.


Oh yeah- and did you get that t-shirt yet?


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Old 10-04-2002, 10:10 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL


I see Fatal, a pattern is emerging here... First you accuse me of working for Raven, then you accuse me of never playing CTF, for a third example you maintain that everyone except me alone agrees with your point of view, and now you insist beyond the shadow of a doubt that I've never played 1.02? You'll forgive me if I chuckle in a superior manner. Ahahaha.

Your feeble and fumbling attempts at ripostes merely show your ignorance, as you can't type a paragraph without resorting to gross generalisation and laughable, childish untruth. Only a buffoon of the lowest order would flap around in the wildly cyclical dance that you have demonstrated in this thread.
LOL, I think i like you spider.

And yeah Backstab was wicked in 1.02. i was gutted it became so lame in 1.03 that i felt guilty if I ever used it.


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Old 10-04-2002, 10:23 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL



Your feeble and fumbling attempts at ripostes merely show your ignorance, as you can't type a paragraph without resorting to gross generalisation and laughable, childish untruth. Only a buffoon of the lowest order would flap around in the wildly cyclical dance that you have demonstrated in this thread.
This is a better description of your repeated accustaions that I in some way am a fan of 1.03.

BTW you can insult, whine, and complain about my arguments all you want. The fact is you are just attempting to draw away attention from your obvious ignorance to the versions and game types you claim to know so well.

Since you such a hot shot please post the servers you frequent so all of us can come and bask in your glory. I really would liket o see you pull this great "1.04 1 hit kill" on me.

I would challenge you to a 1.02 fight, but since you never played it....


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Old 10-04-2002, 10:25 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jah Warrior


LOL, I think i like you spider.

And yeah Backstab was wicked in 1.02. i was gutted it became so lame in 1.03 that i felt guilty if I ever used it.
LoL go back to your weak sabers.

Also I am the the 1.02 backstab and the 1.03 Backstab are the same. They only feel different because there was no need to use it in 1.02 since you didn't have to contend with a horrible blocking system.


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Old 10-04-2002, 10:44 PM   #70
Jah Warrior
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Quote:
Originally posted by FatalStrike


LoL go back to your weak sabers.

Also I am the the 1.02 backstab and the 1.03 Backstab are the same. They only feel different because there was no need to use it in 1.02 since you didn't have to contend with a horrible blocking system.
I was referring to it suddenly becoming the in thing, not that it was any different... It was something lamers used, did u like it, it does sooooo much damage

Also try to post without making personal attacks if you are able to (i suspect not)


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Old 10-05-2002, 12:32 AM   #71
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Ah crap, FatalStrike vs. Jah Warrior, round ???. Seriously, you two never agree..............And how did you get 1.02 and 1.04 on the same computer????????

And I think I know why Spider is calling you a 1.03 lover. He never played 1.02, correct? Therefore, the only powerful move he has known was the Super BS of 1.03, which wasn't changed. Actually, I heard they left that in so blue won't be so useless, guess they thought wrong eh? So, Spider, why don't ya try playing 1.02 for a while, if there are any servers left..............


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Old 10-05-2002, 10:40 AM   #72
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I don't believe any of you have seen Spider play. He played 1.02 since the day BEFORE JK2 was released, as did I. We both got the game mail order and it arrived early. I've never seen anyone better him in a game, he was good at 1.02, he was good at 1.03 and he's good at 1.04.
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Old 10-05-2002, 11:23 AM   #73
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I'd like to see this thread locked soon, before this escalates even further....

And Fatal, I won't get into your points here, since you've shown yourself incapable of arguing - all you have said to me in the past (and to other people too), is that I'm so wrong, and you're so right. Tell me, why I'm wrong the next time - and give examples.

I'll play any of you in Hermes place if you feel like it.


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Old 10-05-2002, 11:26 AM   #74
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everyone calm down. no more flaming


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Old 10-05-2002, 12:33 PM   #75
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Whoops, my mistake on the 1.02, please forgive me.

Yeah, it looks like nothing's gonna get done, but my curiosity is EVIL..............


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Old 10-05-2002, 02:47 PM   #76
Spider AL
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Quote:
Originally posted by GonkH8er:

everyone calm down. no more flaming
You're the boss h8, I will therefore write some replies, in this post, without so much as a smidgeon of ire. Watch the mast0r of unflappable civility at work, people. Mwahahar!

/me gloats

Ahem. Where was I? Ah yes.


Quote:
Originally posted by FatalStrike:


-You're wrong about the BS in 1.02
-You're wrong about saber v guns in 1.02
-You're pathetic Speed and absorb strat is pathetic and would only serve to get you killed in 1.02
I fear it is you who is incorrect, Fatal. Firstly and most obviously, gunners in 1.02 had no earthly problem in dispatching even the most devious of sabre fanatics. Any gunner worth his salt would find no problem in avoiding even 1.02's DFA, and every gunner worth his salt, back in the day, had absorb-timing comparable to my own. I recall vividly the manic battles between gunners, both expert at keeping their distance from each other and absorb up to block pull and drain... Ah, those were indeed the days. Oh wait, it's the same in 1.04. Oh well.

Frankly I think you suffer from overzealous nostalgia. 1.02 wasn't as different from 1.04 as you seem to think. Gunners inevitably ruled the day, and anyone caught waving a breadstick around got shot. In fact, 1.02's balance was so biased in favour of guns, that I made some of my very fastest victories in 1.02.

Notable among these is the time I was the first in a public match to reach the score limit of 20,.. in just over sixty seconds. Using only an Imperial Repeater. The screenshot gives me a warm glow every time I look at it.

Perhaps nowadays in the few 1.02 servers that still exist, people play mostly using the sabre... precisely because they are like you, and cling to the belief that 1.02 was biased in the sabre's favour. But if any of the ancient gunners, people such as Detritic, were still playing 1.02, It's a foregone conclusion that you'd be exposed to reality quite quickly. But we've moved on to 1.04 because it's obvious to us that 1.04 is an improvement over 1.03, aspects of which you love so much.

Vis-a-vis your apparent contempt for Absorb as a power in 1.02, (perhaps you favour Drain/Rage, who knows) I have used absorb in every match I have played since the beginning of April, and quite frankly I haven't lost much. My FFA record stood at 751 matches played, 726 matches won, in mid-august. (I have yet to add the games from the past two months to the total.) At that time my killtracker had registered almost 35,000 FFA kills. That is a powerful advertisment for the use of Absorb.

And when 1.03 came out and nerfed Drain, the fact remains I was at the time undefeated in FF duel matches, in which I used Absorb exclusively. Nobody, whether they used drain, rage, absorb or protection, could stand against me. Another demonstration of the power of Absorb.

With regards to 1.02 CTF, I used exclusively a combination of speed, absorb and strafe-jumping in my self-appointed capacity as flag-carrier. The same tactic is useful today in 1.04, and it was useful in 1.03. When activation of each power was timed correctly, one's approach to the enemy base carefully vectored and one's escape route planned, nobody could, and nobody can stop one who uses this technique, in combination with weapons skill and judicious use of pull.

Today, Fatal, you may like to play the utterly pointless 1.02 "sabres-only CTF" using Rage, or rolling, or whatever it is you like to use... but the techniques I use are inherently stronger across the board, in ALL game modes, though some require more practice and research, than your techniques may do.

Quote:
Originally posted by FatalStrike:

In fact its people like you who wanted to get rid of powerful hits that brought about 1.03.
Actually it was people like yourself, who demanded that the sabre be more powerful than guns, who brought about 1.03. And you're trying to do it again. But we won't let you, don't worry.

As for powerful hits, there are plenty in 1.04. The fact that you lack the skill to use them, is not my concern, nor the concern of the community at large.

Quote:
Originally posted by FatalStrike:

So while Omega and I are right in saying sabers in 1.02 were strong against weapons
Oh I very much doubt that an experienced 1.02 gunner would have much trouble killing yourself OR omega ten times out of ten, if you chose to use only the sabre against him. You're looking at 1.02 through a rose-tinted brain, meladdo.

Quote:
Originally posted by FatalStrike:

You over simplified the saber by calling it a melee weapon.
I presume you're unaware of what a melee weapon is? As roughly as I can put it, a melee weapon is a hand-held weapon. In fact one could say that a melee weapon is anything one can use as a weapon, except projectile weapons such as guns. But, guns can also be used as melee weapons in real life, by (for instance) whacking someone round the head with them. Melee weapons such as swords or knives can also be thrown, though their accuracy would depend on whether they had been designed as a throwing weapon also, such as the nordic double-headed axe.

So yup, the sabre is a melee weapon. I'm sorry I had to break it to you, but the sabre is indeed a weapon that is designed for close-combat, and anyone who tries to fight with a sabre at long range is misguided at best.

The fact that you wish to empower the sabre further in order that you might use the sabre against gunners, is laughable.

That's why you liked the idiotically overpowered moves in 1.03, one would surmise. And the fact that even those with pull stocked fully could be knocked down with it? And the fact that one could hover using the lightsabre? lol.

You like so many things about 1.03, what DIDN'T you like about it? The fact that you adore so MUCH of it, means you're a 1.03 lover, despite your many protestations to the contrary.

Quote:
Originally posted by FatalStrike:

Since you such a hot shot please post the servers you frequent so all of us can come and bask in your glory. I really would liket o see you pull this great "1.04 1 hit kill" on me.
Oh by ALL means!

I play on the Blueyonder and Jolt duel servers, I play on the Boomtown and Gamesdomain FFA servers, and the CTF servers on all the above networks. Hope to see you there! Nay, I EXPECT to see you there. Mohohohm.

Quote:
Originally posted by Guardian Omega:

So, Spider, why don't ya try playing 1.02 for a while
Hmm, how very misguided, my young friend. Read Detritic's post again, if any doubt remains.


[FW] Spider AL
--
Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 10-05-2002, 03:09 PM   #77
Guardian Omega
 
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To Spider-AL: Well I did, look at my last post.

And I am curious to see how saber vs. gun in 1.02 is still practically the same in 1.04, I think the saber dm is higher, yes? Tell me that and I'll withdraw, since I am now just curious about that.


Sue, it's the American way!- I forgot.
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Old 10-05-2002, 03:11 PM   #78
Jah Warrior
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
Oh by ALL means!

I play on the Blueyonder and Jolt duel servers, I play on the Boomtown and Gamesdomain FFA servers, and the CTF servers on all the above networks. Hope to see you there! Nay, I EXPECT to see you there. Mohohohm.
LOL he'll never show up, I challenged him and he chickened out.


Peace & Ting

Jah
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Old 10-05-2002, 03:19 PM   #79
DeTRiTiC-iQ
 
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lol...

I am considered a "good " player (guns), in that I support teammates and I can use every gun in the game with pretty good effectiveness. There are a few players who are better than me who I enjoy playing, they offer me the change to improve my skills. Only after I have increased myself to their level would I ever challenge Spider.

Seriously, don't go into a game with Spider unless he's on your team.
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Old 10-05-2002, 03:38 PM   #80
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Just find him in the search option on the bottom. I found him, but too late, he left.


Sue, it's the American way!- I forgot.
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