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Old 09-23-2002, 03:06 PM   #1
FatalStrike
 
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Promod Fans Please Read

Taking ProMod to the next level

We all are very familiar with ProMod and what Artifex is trying to do with it. I would like to begin this thread by saying that I appreciate very much the effort and time that Artifex has put into this Mod.

I want to make one point clear before I begin: Artifex has ASKED me to write this thread to see what some of you have to say on the matter. This is not me going nuts and trying to hijack ProMod

I have played ProMod many times and have tried to keep in mind the over all goal that Artifex originally stated which was to make a Mod for above average players for competition purposes. In that respect Artifex has moved leaps and bounds beyond standard 1.04. He has created system of defense that force player to work hard at defending them selves. I will state at this time that I completely satisfied with the defense system in ProMod.

However I have some serious concerns with the offensive side of the saber. While ProMod has increased the saber damage to more appropriate levels, it has done nothing to repair the damage done by Raven. All the offensive attacks that Raven weakened in their misguided effort to balance the game remain in a weakened state. This must be fixed if this Mod is to fulfill its potential.

The reasons I say this are not because I love to “spam” as some of you are most likely already mentally accusing me of, but because I believe that these “spamed” techniques and strats are already addressed by the ProMod defensive system. I will site some examples:

******************************
-DFA was a problem in 1.02, because too many people spammed it.
The best counter for this at the time was to avoid it. Also it caused many kills while buried in the ground.

ProMod defensive solution: DFA’s can be blocked. So now you can avoid it AND block it. It is my conclusion that there are enough counters available that any player that gets caught with this and killed, has no excuses left to him. Sometimes we can’t allow whiners to rule the day, if they get hit and die, good.
*******************************

*******************************
-Spinning Backstab was a problem in 1.02 simply because it was so easy to pull you down. Once you fell it killed you and you were defenseless.

ProMod Defensive solution: You can’t be knocked down nearly as easily as you used to be, not even pull + kick sends you to the ground. Since this move is no longer so easy to use and can be blocked I see no sensible reason for it to remain weakened. Fact is in saber only CTF, a spinning back slash is a very good way of getting out of a surrounding group. This move is no longer an exploit but is in fact a difficult move to pull of that is very useful in difficult situations.
********************************

There are also some strats that were weakened seemingly for no reason. Medium stance was slowed down and not allowed to spin in an effort to avoid “spinning top” fighters. Now anyone who was ever any good at 1.02 can tell you that “spinning top” technique only got you killed against anyone that knew what they where doing. The slow spin of medium, has limited its attack ability while strafing and has made it more of a forward attack stance. This make the actually fighting much less enjoyable as it become a battle for positioning, instead of the more lethal style in which you could strike affectively while moving in any direction with having to pause.

Backwards movement was slowed down to add to realism, but I suspect it was to make it easier for some players to land hits. While I do not doubt anyone’s ability here, I must say that it was almost impossible for newer players to land a hit on good players in 1.02. Dodging was a ability made substantially weaker in 1.03 and 1.04. I am suspicious of any changes that make for less of anything.

I will end my rant by stating a simple truth. 1.02 had the strongest and best offense of any of the version to date. ProMod has the best defense. Why not combine the two? Why do we need the offense to stay in its weakened state? I’m sure none of you ProMod fans had any trouble winning in 1.02 in the first place, so do you really need them to be weakened now that you can block them? I don’t think so.

Less is NOT more, regardless of what “l33t” players keep telling us.



I would like this to be a peaceful thread where we can discuss these ideas I have laid out for ProMod. If you want to flame me, send me a PM, and I will be glad to send you back a snide remark. If you have your own ideas about ProMod I would ask that you please start your own thread. This thread is for the assessment and discussion of previously mentioned ideas that I have been asked to present to you by Artifex and several JKII players that do not make a habit of posting on this forum.

Thank you,


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Old 09-23-2002, 05:28 PM   #2
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Firstly, I will state that I think special moves should be "special." That is, useful in a few situations, but foolish to use as a primary method of attack. I won't let myself be dragged back into battles of DFA, medium finisher, DFA, backsweep, strong sideswipe, DFA, DFA, DFA, medium finisher, 3-swing medium combo, medium finisher, backsweep, etc. because frankly I believe it's quite retarded and by no means even semi-realistic.

Now before you flame me in retaliation, hear me out. I'm not implying that's what you want. However, in my experience with other games and past versions of JK2, moves like this always upset the balance. On paper, they may have their counters, sure. But they act as high-order terms in a equation; as the parameters (mostly of battle length and skill level) increase, the special moves will always become the thing that defines the outcome of the fight. The most obvious case of this is the 1.03 backsweep vs. backsweep duels. Who cares about chaining combos or timing your strong swings when you have a simple yet overpowering move at your disposal? I know you don't want 1.03 backsweep back, just the rotation, so hold back.

Or 1.02 DFA. Yes, it's counterable, but you'll never say "I should do a DFA, he's in a great position to punish me for it!" You are going to always minimize your risk by positioning yourself properly and keeping his force pool low. So you minimize the risk, and 1.02 DFA still gives you the ability to fly through the air twirling with a defense-shattering strong swing toward your opponent. The only thing that can reliably trump this attack is, guess what, another DFA. So, you have two outcomes: 1) DFA vs. DFA, or 2) The non-DFAing guy is done for unless you let yourself make a mistake and leave yourself open.

I could go on, but the gist of it is that special moves should not give control of the fight to the user. When they do, it doesn't take long to realize, and so special moves always become the primary form of attack. I do not believe that special moves should force the victim to come up with a counter; they should unconditionally leave you open to attack. "Nerfed" DFA and backsweep finally do this; less may not be more, but more can certainly be less when it causes the pool of viable moves to shrink to a handful.

However, I do believe the role of special moves is to serve as counterattacks in of themselves. I do think that if the enemy is in such a bad position that you can line up a DFA into him and make it hit, he should be done for. If you can plant your feet and nail someone directly behind you with a backstab, great.

The thing is: now you are taking advantage of the opponent's mistake. You are not screwing up the game by forcing the opponent to evade until you let yourself be taken advantage of. Saber combat is no longer decided by a handful of moves, but forces players to vary their tactics.
_________________________________

The briefer version:
Special moves until recently were a low-risk/high-reward deal. Skilled players understand how to minimize the risk associated with their moves. Game balance was upset when the special moves gave substantially higher reward than any other moves, yet with the same or less amount of risk.

When special moves are higher risk than reward, it no longer makes sense to spam them. However, they are still valuable tools in the arsenal for exploiting an opponent's mistakes. This leaves the standard light, medium and strong attacks as the mainstay of offense, as it should have been from the beginning.

More specifically:
- Don't break the system again by putting the spin back into DFA, backstab and backsweep. But I would support making the moves more damaging/penetrating when they hit.

I haven't gotten started on the regular attacks, but I guess I'm still forming an opinion on them anyway.

Also, as you said yourself, Promod blocking is near perfect, so I don't see why backward running speed is an issue.
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Old 09-23-2002, 05:47 PM   #3
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Well put Blamer.
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Old 09-23-2002, 05:51 PM   #4
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I don't think you read my post.....at least I hope not.

ProMod is not for noobs, if you spam against a good player you die. So if I kill instantly without the use of DFA's or BS in 1.02 everytime someone trys a DFA why can't I do the same in ProMod?

You are flat our WRONG about the only counter to a DFA being another DFA. You can side step and crush them with a vertical heavy slash, I do this ALL THE TIME.

Special moves are moves with HUGE pay offs and HUGE rewards. If you are against a good player then a DFA can cost you your life in 1.02. Now if I was fighting someone that believe the only DFA counter is a DFA well then you would be screwed.

I thought ProMod was for good players, not people who never figured how to counter special moves in the first place.


as for the BS how exactly would this be spammed in an enviroment where you can't block in the back, and you can't pull people to the ground?


I am starting to think the best players stayed in 1.02 because if a spinning DFA was soo hard for you guys to deal with, I'm sorry to say this but I am forced to doubt you skill level.

Besides none of us know what effect the addition of blocking will have on 1.02 type gaming. All of your comments failed to take into account the blocking.

Sorry if this is a flame but considering I am a very good 1.02 player I can honestly say that your views on the impact of DFA and BS on good players in WRONG.

Now if noobs wish to spam, then thats their problem, but I don't think Mods should be designed with noobs in mind.


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Old 09-23-2002, 05:58 PM   #5
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I am losing hope in this community. The point is to make a Mod that is for the BEST players and I am given spamming concerns?

Some of you still haven't realized the double fixes you are advocating. If you can block a DFA then you don't need it nerfed. If you can't be draged down then you don't need a nerfed BS. How can you not see that?

YOU CAN'T SPAM WHAT CAN BE BLOCKED!!!!

its a simple concept...or at least I thought it was.


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Old 09-23-2002, 06:55 PM   #6
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Spining dfa:

I've never succesfully blocked a dfa in beta 1, and now in beta 2 it's a lot harder, i've never seen someone who blocked it. only way to get in a good defensive position is in blue, crouching and backpedaling, which i doubt someone will do on the fly.

Haveing the dfa spin will give the defender a few options:

Push(FF only)

dodge

Right now a good counter is to take a small sidestep and swipe, if it can spin you would have to make a huge dodge, and counter attacking would be more difficult. > easyer to constantly do.

I like the dfa as is, i would like to see higher defence breaker and damage, i hate landing it and haveing the person back out.

Spining backstab: Don't really care, i don't know what the damage is but they are usless, makeing it spin would help those who mess up and do it accedentaly, i don't really see the use for backstabs anyway.

Spining yellow attacks: No, the spins in there right now are slow, and pretty useless, people say "they are good for timing" but i don't see how leaveing your back open to get a diagonal slice is good, back+left/right produces the same crap, but better. What would be nice if the spins were sped up to regular yellow speed or given more damage.

Backpedal speed: I like what was done, even now it's pathetic on how a low skilled player can evade by simply backpedaling and blocking, pull helps but you can't imediatly chain it, there is always a delay.
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Old 09-23-2002, 09:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by zerowingzero
Spining dfa:

I've never succesfully blocked a dfa in beta 1, and now in beta 2 it's a lot harder, i've never seen someone who blocked it. only way to get in a good defensive position is in blue, crouching and backpedaling, which i doubt someone will do on the fly.

Haveing the dfa spin will give the defender a few options:

Push(FF only)

dodge

Right now a good counter is to take a small sidestep and swipe, if it can spin you would have to make a huge dodge, and counter attacking would be more difficult. > easyer to constantly do.

I like the dfa as is, i would like to see higher defence breaker and damage, i hate landing it and haveing the person back out.

Spining backstab: Don't really care, i don't know what the damage is but they are usless, makeing it spin would help those who mess up and do it accedentaly, i don't really see the use for backstabs anyway.

Spining yellow attacks: No, the spins in there right now are slow, and pretty useless, people say "they are good for timing" but i don't see how leaveing your back open to get a diagonal slice is good, back+left/right produces the same crap, but better. What would be nice if the spins were sped up to regular yellow speed or given more damage.

Backpedal speed: I like what was done, even now it's pathetic on how a low skilled player can evade by simply backpedaling and blocking, pull helps but you can't imediatly chain it, there is always a delay.
My main problem with the DFA as is, is that to many people end up dodging it by accident. It only take an inch and you are screwed. Basically I want the moves useful AGAINST THE BEST, not against someone who made a dumb mistake, or against people not facing you in FFA. A move like that might as well not be there in high end dueling.

Also the current Medium stance make you pause while strafing to avoid going into a slow spin that leaves you too open. Why a Medium stance spin would be as slow as a Heavy spin is just stupid. There are too many changes that are making the attacks straight forward.


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Old 09-23-2002, 09:31 PM   #8
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DFAs were easy to dodge in 1.03/4 and Promod (haven't played 1.02 )

In fact, anyone who attempted one on me got a heavy sideswing to the rear.

It's all the more easier to kill a DFAer in promod, because of increased damage, no rear blocking, and the CSC system letting you have pinpoint aim of their frozen body while their post DFA anim forces them to aim at the ground.

I don't know what's wrong with me, I but I swear it's more difficult to score kills in Promod with spammed DFAs. And it's more lethal to perform one in an FFA or even a duel.

In 1.04, if you DFAed you virtually had a 360 degree blocking circumference that could barely be penetrated by the Medium stance. If someone took a quick swipe at you in Light stance, their attack would be knocked off as if your ass was made of rubber.

In promod all stances can penetrate, and relatively easy at that.

So I don't really understand the need to block DFAs (since you can't block the Medium Finisher/DFA) if you can simply move aside.


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Old 09-23-2002, 09:38 PM   #9
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heh love the wole post quote.

Making dfa's unblockable from all but blue crouch+backpedal would be nice, as well as fixing on how venerable you are when useing drain/lightning.
I swear they can still block, i see a lot of the saber clash gliter when i try to hit them...
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Old 09-23-2002, 10:01 PM   #10
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I suggested speeding up the medium spins in promod a long time ago and nobody listened. I have no idea how anyone could like the current medium stance the way it is, it licks bigtime compared to 1.02.
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Old 09-23-2002, 10:55 PM   #11
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a thing with spinning specials is that ppl may use scripts to change yaw speed and end up manipulating a loophole in the game

if this has been fixed in promod (ie making it a server side command only) then i stand corrected.
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Old 09-23-2002, 11:19 PM   #12
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DFA should only do damage on the down stroke, Version 1.02 was completely screwed up; if its block-able then let it spin. I fear that FFA will return to the DFA spam state of 1.02. Increasing the vulnerable time of a DFA attack may help though - if you do the most powerful attack in the game then there should be great risk of failure.

A small arch, say 30 degrees, of spin on the backstab would be nice. Pull/backstab wasn't the only problem. In FFA the spamming in the middle of a crowd was immense. As a NF duelist I never found BS (spinning or damage) over powering or spammable - it was only a problem in FFA. I would have fixed the game-type rather than the nerf the backstab attack.

Allowing unlimited spinning in yellow/stance would be a mistake in light of slower backpeddle. It may only work if there were "jam" attacks or blocks that could interrupt, knock-back, or break the spinning. Maybe the damage could ramp up on consecutive spins to make up for its vulnerability - a wheel kick in martial arts is like hitting someone with a baseball bat but you are verwy, verwy vunwerable.

Back-peddle was nerfed. I was a good defensive player through evasion and avoidance. I can no longer play this style. I'm certain that this methodical and slow form of death is very frustrating to my opponents. And due to the current poor design (slow turn-over) of the Duel-game-type this defensives style verged on inconsiderate for those waiting their turn to duel. I'm not certain whether slow back-peddle is better for game play or not - but it does favor a more aggressive rather than counterfighting style. Currently, strafing away is far better than backing up for avoidance tactics. Losing to someone who backpeddles does not mean your fighting a skill-less player - they are fighting a style counter to yours thus will tend to beat you if your not doing your best. In martial arts counter-fighters are deadly - and for a short distance they can back-peddle as quickly as their opponent can charge.

Promod "IS" 1.02 with better defense and fewer bugs. Why not move forward with enhancements and tweaks, rather than label it as 1.02 with better defense.

1.02 carries an off flavor for many JK players - best not to use it as a label.

Adding the best parts of all versions, if there are any, along with "new content" might be the best approach.
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Old 09-24-2002, 12:14 AM   #13
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I don't want ProMod exactly like 1.02. I want the better attack styles of 1.02 to be included.

There is no doubt that 1.02 Yellow stance is better then 1.04's. If you think that 1.04 yellow is better PLEASE go play 1.02 and then post your opinion.

Special SHOULD be risky but not stupid. If you can sneeze and avoid it, then there is NO point in using them EVER in high end duels. I only want EVERY move to be useful.

The nerfed back peddle is to appease whiney brats that couldn't land a hit. I had no problem hitting idiots in 1.02 and I found that the game was much more graceful when you could move fluidly.

Red stance was sped up in ProMod Beta 2 and all you wankers got all crazy when I suggested it, and you know what its not the uber stance you thought it would turn into, so please lets TRY BETTER OFFENSE BEFORE you start claiming that spam will occur.


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Old 09-24-2002, 01:39 AM   #14
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I actually like the slower backpedal because it forces players to make a choice. If you want to outdistance your opponent, you have to turn and run. If you can't afford to lose saber blocking, you'd better stay in the fight.

Also, i'm in favor of changes that keep the battle closer together. As impressive as acrobatics can be, I never saw luke and vader dodging that much. Fact is, the primary defense in star wars is the saber block, and while other optionions should be available, think its right for the game to encourage more confrontational duels.
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Old 09-24-2002, 10:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by FatalStrike
I don't want ProMod exactly like 1.02. I want the better attack styles of 1.02 to be included.

There is no doubt that 1.02 Yellow stance is better then 1.04's. If you think that 1.04 yellow is better PLEASE go play 1.02 and then post your opinion.

Correct, yellow is more effective in 1.02. But it may not properly balance with the current state of ProMod. When Jk2 was released a year ago I realized that 1.02 was way to bugged. I draw a comparison against Heretic2 - the spiritual forerunner of JK2 combat system. Other H2 players felt the same way. We waited for a patch, but the patching proved insufficient. ProMod is currently the closest thing to an ideal combat system, and, should be used as an example for LucasArts and Raven to draw from for there next release.

To paraphrase the developers "we did not intend yellow stance to be used like a Whirling Dervish". Also, the yellow linked attacks were as quick as the blue-stance linked attacks. This made blue-stance useless. I find Yellow-stance in ProMod to be very effective. And one can still spam (button mash) the attack with great effect.

All stances should remain uniquely different with their own advantages and disadvantages, to which end Artiflex has done an excellent job. I do believe however that linked attacks in red and yellow stance could use a little polishing. Maybe ramping up damage or defense-breaking for consecutive linked attacks might help balance link attacks to a more useful state. Example: the second and third attack of a linked combo should do extra damage - the third strike being exceptionally deadly; as they are currently very hard to hit with. Or maybe the second strike could be the defense breaker and the third attack the coupe de grace. Etc. The idea being that new content be consider rather than old irritations.
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Old 09-24-2002, 10:36 AM   #16
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Great argument for 1.04 Yellow stance by MrCrusher. He is the first to make a valid point that doesn't include the words "spam" which should not be an issue since the Mos is designed for above average players.

However, blue stance in its very nature is a purely defensive stance and really shouldn't be used for attacks. It doesn't have any reach to speak of, and causes very little damage. If you use blue as a counter punch it can be used to great result.

By drawing these lines of comparison you are forgetting one very important factor, you are not taking into account the effect of ProMod blocking to a 1.02 attacking system. We know blue is useful since it can counter after blocks, but you could do that in 1.02 so we don't know what blue is capable of in that system.


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Old 09-24-2002, 10:40 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikus_aurelius
I actually like the slower backpedal because it forces players to make a choice. If you want to outdistance your opponent, you have to turn and run. If you can't afford to lose saber blocking, you'd better stay in the fight.

Also, i'm in favor of changes that keep the battle closer together. As impressive as acrobatics can be, I never saw luke and vader dodging that much. Fact is, the primary defense in star wars is the saber block, and while other optionions should be available, think its right for the game to encourage more confrontational duels.
There are too many change encouraging straight simple attacks. This makes for more pretty "sparks" but for much less diverse attacking strats.

Once again we don't know the effect that added blocking would do to a 1.02ish system. Would you always back away when you know you could absorb a hit and counter it? I think the main reason people backed up so much in 1.02 is because you couldn't block.


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Old 09-24-2002, 10:58 AM   #18
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The DFA

There's been some good points made thus far. I agree with Fatal that something extra does need to be added to the DFA. It's got a bit too much risk vs. reward associated with it now. Zero's suggestion to allow it to penetrate better than your average Strong swing sounds like it might be a good idea. I'll see about adding a bit of a CSC bonus to the move. That way it will still be blockable, but will require a defender to have a much stronger defense in order to do so.

Another idea might be to allow the DFA to turn while in the air, but to lessen the power of the strike as you turn away from directly ahead. For instance, if you launched a DFA, and your opponent dodges to your left 45-degrees, and you turn to follow him, then you'll lose some of the inertia of the swing, and thus some of the CSC bonus and damage associated with the DFA. It'd have to be a pretty significant amount. A 90-degree turn would have to render the move nearly useless.

I could also associate some knockback or even a knockdown with a blocked DFA. They wouldn't take any damage from the swing, but they might get knocked off the edge of a cliff or wind up on their ass if their defense wasn't strong enough.

Backstabs

Again, the risk vs. reward is a bit off here. Currently, these seldom hit and present you as a stationary target to your opponent. I'm definitely going to give these a CSC bonus for their sheer surprise factor. However, the sweeps shouldn't get spammed in FFA, because you'll still have to concentrate on getting a single target precisely behind you. Hitting other targets off-center will just result in them blocking the attack. Don't expect to whip out one of these in a 1v1 against a wary opponent and succeed it damaging them. These are only going to work when you've caught your opponent with his pants down. *cough*special move recovery*cough*

I'm probably going to up the damage a bit more as well. If you've got the balls to try this, you should be rewarded accordingly if you do it well.

Spins

I also agree that the spin swings are pretty much suicide. Most good players spend a lot of time figuring out how to avoid these. Something needs to be done with them. Here's the options that I can see doing:

1.) Simply up the damage for spin moves. Somewhere between 20-30% would probably be good to start out.

2.) Up the swing speed so that they match normal swing times. I probably wouldn't do this to Blue stance. Its spin swings are ludicrously fast already.

3.) Give them a CSC bonus. It would make sense for the swing to have more inertia since there's more of a wind-up.

4.) Figure out some other control scheme for initiating a spin move so that you never spin by accident.

5.) Remove them entirely and just use their normal, non-spinning counterparts. I hate to remove anything. I'd only do this if there were technical reasons that I couldn't make the moves useful in some other manner.

Final thought

ProMod is not, and will never be 1.02, nor will it be 1.03 or 1.04. It's ProMod, whose goal is to take the things done right from each version and from my own modifications, and pack them into one solid, perfectly-balanced game core, then expand upon it. ProMod will not be finished until: I think that the balance is perfect, CTF is an absolute blast to play with or without guns, and Duels are the ultimate proving ground for the masters of the game.


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Last edited by ArtifeX; 09-24-2002 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 09-24-2002, 11:04 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by FatalStrike
...We know blue is useful since it can counter after blocks, but you could do that in 1.02 so we don't know what blue is capable of in that system.
Remember that you can counterattack in Beta 3 with any of the 3 styles, not just Blue. Red stance has a really wicked long-distance counterattack.


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Old 09-24-2002, 11:20 AM   #20
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Now there is logic I hadn't thought to use....

Swings are stronger at their center arc and much weaker at their edges. Could the same be done for a DFA? If you turn you lose the same power as you would in a normal heavy hit? So if I hit you 90 degrees right of the center I would do verry little damage? Thats brilliant!!!

It would make DFA's harder to avoid but also much less powerful and useful if launched inaccurately. It should be 100% blockable past...45 degrees?

Can it be done?

You would also have to make its power go straight to zero once it landed to avoid the "buried" hits of 1.02.

I say try it Artifex, like you said this a Beta 3 and not the final version so how will you know anything if you don't test it.

What about increasing the back up speed to full speed when you start moving and slow it down after a few paces? In RL I can take one are two steps backwards at very high speed but then must slow down to avoid falling down. This would allow you small precise dodging up close but not let you run backwards like a bot.

If you don't think you can move backwards fast please watch the NFL on Sunday and see how cornbacks take their first to steps back in pass coverage.


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Old 09-24-2002, 11:22 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX


Remember that you can counterattack in Beta 3 with any of the 3 styles, not just Blue. Red stance has a really wicked long-distance counterattack.
*an evil smile appears on Fatals face*


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Old 09-24-2002, 01:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by FatalStrike
...
Can it be done?

You would also have to make its power go straight to zero once it landed to avoid the "buried" hits of 1.02.

I say try it Artifex, like you said this a Beta 3 and not the final version so how will you know anything if you don't test it.
I'm a bit hesitant, as those new to ProMod or those who have never played 1.02 may react poorly to a spinning DFA, be it variable damage or not. It won't be something that's readily apparent while playing the game, so many will reflexively think I've just reimplemented 1.02's DFA. I'm going on vacation for a few days starting tomorrow. I'll let this gestate for a few days and see if it's the best solution.

Quote:
[/b]
What about increasing the back up speed to full speed when you start moving and slow it down after a few paces? In RL I can take one are two steps backwards at very high speed but then must slow down to avoid falling down. This would allow you small precise dodging up close but not let you run backwards like a bot.

If you don't think you can move backwards fast please watch the NFL on Sunday and see how cornbacks take their first to steps back in pass coverage. [/B]
Backup speed is set to 75% of forward speed at the moment. That's pretty darn fast for running backwards. That'd mean an olympian could run the 100m dash backwards in 13 seconds. That's faster than many people can run forwards.

I think the backwards run speed is going to stay as it is for a bit.


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Old 09-24-2002, 02:44 PM   #23
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Originally posted by ArtifeX


I'm a bit hesitant, as those new to ProMod or those who have never played 1.02 may react poorly to a spinning DFA, be it variable damage or not. It won't be something that's readily apparent while playing the game, so many will reflexively think I've just reimplemented 1.02's DFA. I'm going on vacation for a few days starting tomorrow. I'll let this gestate for a few days and see if it's the best solution.

COuld you limit the rotation to 180 degrees so players could script a spin and fly around like frizbee's?

But we are debating nonsense here...the whole DFA argument is simple....

Do you want a DFA than can be used against GOOD opponents or not. As it stands the DFA is not just risky, it is suicide, and we both know it. Maybe not if FFA when people are gathered in crowds, but why have a move so lame that you can only use it when people can't see you?

Just because people don't like something shouldn't give them the right to deny someone else that something. I can't stand blue stance lunge but you will never here me trying to ban it or nerf it. People should decide their own method of attack and we should have a counter for it. Its not cool to have a counter but be too much of a noob to use it and then whine about it being a cheap move....that thinking brought us 1.04 and is the whole reason ProMod is needed to begin with.


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Old 09-24-2002, 03:10 PM   #24
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Finally, some serious debate. It's about time man, I've been waiting to hammer out where Promod should go with people for awhile now. It's not my mod, but when a mod like this gets good, I feel like it's of personal interest to get as involved as possible.

Fatalstrike = right.

Let's stop kidding ourselves here. This DFA spinning thing is not going to upset the balance of the game. Keep in mind, when a DFA is executed, it has a constant foward motion. Even if it rotates. You could possibly just walk foward and around their attack. Granted, a rotating DFA would effectively allow some players to use the attack and "cover" themselves by simply aiming their attack at the sidestepping opponent. However. while it will probably take away the immediate ability to destroy some good dfa hoppers unless you're good enough at maneuvering, they won't be able to do it endlessly. Why??? Because in order to do another, they most wind up, and swing. Sooo.... you close and destroy before and while the dfa takes off, then get out of the way.

Now, if you'd all follow my suggestions and raise saber damage for all the stances up a notch, or at least give light stance it's due (I'm sorry, that stance, while great defensively, is just too sorry to use exclusively unless the opponent mindless falls into your counter traps), then we'd all be really happy.

Yellow stance back to 1.02!!! YES, I'LL HAVE THAT ONE PLEASE! Seriously, some people are talking about the 'balance' of previous promods being upset by a totally new, or should we say return of an old, stance. This is nonsense. It's promod. The blocking systme is fullproof. If you don't block, it's your fault, not some tactical advantage. Even if yellow stance of old comes back, while it will certainly become a very capable and heavily used offensive stance, it's csc value remains as is. Promod, while giving yo uthe comfort of knowing that you can control the outcome of your blocks, also gives you the discomfort of knowing that your opponent can also control the outcome of his defense breaking. We got a taste of it in the first two promods. I'm a decent player myself, and what little reputation or actual skill I have aside, I went from playing a really fast JK2++, to a more controlled Promod, and found myself continuously overwhelmed by a yellow stance drive. But over time, I acclimated myself to the system, and now understand what needs to be avoided, and also what can very readily be blocked. I'm starting to get comfortable again.

The specials in this game are special, but guess what. They are too special. Just because some guy at Raven wrote in some instruction manual that these moves are 'special' doesn't mena we need to relegate them in a small corner to be used in only certain situations. Rather, they should be very usable moves. They should be tweaked and tuned so that, like any other swing, if you use it over and over again, it won't be a safe move to use.

The problem with specials in the 1.03 - 1.04 trash eras, was that you could do them, and then you got this magical blocking barrier that seemingly covered your skin. So someone would throw yellow stance special, or blue, and i'd see it coming like 2000 years ago, give them a regular swing return... and then find my player's saber knocked off balanced. Promod eliminated this blocking fissure.... although, while I don't know about programming, her'es a thought. When you do certain moves that leave you in animations that make you appear to be open, you can still theoretically aim your crosshairs and get the block. AKA, yellow stance special. That's a very safe move to use. Perhaps when you do the special moves, in order to get rid of the blocking at the end animations of the moves, you should give those moves a defense penalty. So if I do blue lunge, I'll get the effects I want, but also a defense penalty. DFA, I can spin, and kill, but while I'm doing, I have a defense penalty so high as to ensure that any strike made against me will count.

Anyway's, promod is starting to get 'comfortable', which is what I don't like. I need to be in constant danger. People complain about this lightsaber suddenly getting more dangerous, but have you forgotten that there are rocket launcher and imperial repeater toting players as well? Their weapons are still as lethal as ever, and yet no one notices. The lightsaber should be put on par with them, not a toy, but a weapon that even while you have this magnificent defense system, you should be just as scared of it as you are imperial flechette. In fact, you should be more scared in my opinion. That's where I want this mod to go.

the only thing I disagree with that Fatalstrike says is backpeddling. This just adds to the danger in my opinion. Granted ,ther'es less dodging, but that's good. It forces us to rely on good aim and blocking instead of adopting a complete dodging method. Like you ahve to use a little bit of all the stances, you'll have to use a little bit of the blocking and dodging as well. Also, if this were just lightsabers, well, fine, but when you get guns in the picture, running backwards and firing a weapon that is still the most effect in both close and long range fights, while the guy who is running forward has no prayer of catching you, will destroy promod. It will effectively become a saber mod, or jedimod as I like to say. And while jedimod is certainly fun, it's not competitive.

On a side note, I played the computer in a duel a few nights ago, made him Yoda. Granted, the computer isn't good, but I don't see a problem fighting Yoda. Seriously, if you could make smaller characters like Yoda exist, but incorporate seperate csc penalty system on them, it would be great. Even if yoda were given a constant offensive and defensive penalty, the extra speed that he has (he runs so quick and jumps like crazy too) would balance it out. Allow him to be the quick poker. It would add variety to the game as well. and as you said, if someone really objects to that, or finds their server plagued with 12 mini yodas, then you could put a cvar in to turn that crap off.

In summary:

Promod is for 'pros' or better put, better than average players or players seeking to become better than average. Yes, the mod should be for fun, but let's face it, if this mod goes the route of just being 'fun', then it will simply be added to the continually growing list of 'fun' mods. We already got 13.5 versions of fun mods. This mod is fun in a different way, in that many options exist in order to control victories or defeats.

Promod 1 and 2 took the first step, adding the old 1.02 elements back in will only add to the fervor, and introduce some players to a more lethal, and harder to control fighting style, one that first spurned the downfall of JK2 when people started complaining.
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Old 09-24-2002, 03:23 PM   #25
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Fatalstrike,

I play using promod at least 2 hours a day, and based on my experience from a many hours playing it, You make some good points IMHO. It seems that many forget exactly what type of players Promod was designed for. I am not flaming anyone here, but not everyone is a topnotch saberist. I know I am not, but I am getting better by playing against a few that are, and I enjoy the intensity of those duels. So keep in mind my opinions are those of a saberist with solid skills, but who's timing and excecution is far from topnotch.

Anyway, The defensive capabilities in promod beta 2 are realistic/solid. The main concern left seems to be the lethality of the saber. Here are my thoughts on this disscussion:

1. You SHOULD pay the price anytime you turn your back to a saber weilding opponent.

2. Therefore, any move, including the specials, that CAN be blocked and/or avoided, should not be nerfed in anyway. Bring back the ability to spin with BS and DFA.

3. Speed up the spins in yellow just a bit, but they needs to remain noticably slower than the blue stance, which is to fast to truely time and control chaining attacks as it is. (just my opinion based on my skills).

4. If the DFA is not to return to the ability to spin, then it needs to be strengthend slightly. Someone that is low on shields and manna that manages to block a well timed DFA should at least be knocked down and not able to back out.

I have more, but those are what I would like to see the most in Promod beta 3. I know this mod was made for saberists of higher skill level than myself, but I love playing Promod against better saberists than myself and won't play anything else.

Kudos to Artifex for all his time, effort and willingness to listen.

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Old 09-24-2002, 03:28 PM   #26
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finally someone other then Artifex and I that doesn't sound like the same people that brought us 1.03 (you know who you are!).

Stop fearing strong attacks, learn to counter them and you won't have a problem anymore.

Fact is none of us know what players will do when a more dealy offense is introduced to the ProMod Defense. We can't base our assumptions on what happened in 1.02 because 1.02 couldn't block anything!!

I will yield on the back wards running thing, you guys has made much better arguments then me for keeping it.


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Old 09-24-2002, 03:31 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Kaan


4. If the DFA is not to return to the ability to spin, then it needs to be strengthend slightly. Someone that is low on shields and manna that manages to block a well timed DFA should at least be knocked down and not able to back out.

I love everything you said except this qoute above. You can make it strong enough to cause the gorund to shake and it won't matter because a 1 day gamer can avoid it.

Thanks for sharing your ideas!


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Old 09-24-2002, 04:41 PM   #28
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True enough. Point well taken.

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Old 09-24-2002, 05:42 PM   #29
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Quote:
Another idea might be to allow the DFA to turn while in the air, but to lessen the power of the strike as you turn away from directly ahead. For instance, if you launched a DFA, and your opponent dodges to your left 45-degrees, and you turn to follow him, then you'll lose some of the inertia of the swing, and thus some of the CSC bonus and damage associated with the DFA. It'd have to be a pretty significant amount. A 90-degree turn would have to render the move nearly useless.
Great idea. Coupled with knockback/knockdown if it connects, it might bring the moves cost-benefit back into whack. It could be a very nice compromise between the needs of duelists and ffa'ers.
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Old 09-24-2002, 05:55 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by taboo


Great idea. Coupled with knockback/knockdown if it connects, it might bring the moves cost-benefit back into whack. It could be a very nice compromise between the needs of duelists and ffa'ers.
Wow I'm not used to people agreeing on forums...

*touches the ground*

Well hell hasn't froozen over......


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Old 09-24-2002, 06:00 PM   #31
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K a few points:

Fatal: Backpedal speed needs to be slower than forward runing. Why? Jk2 is not a gun only game. In gun only games, backbedaling really doesnt matter because all damage is done long range. With jk2's saber system, you need to make up distance to get attacks. I was suprised how long it took someone who would hold down backpedal and heal in PROMOD, not 1.04, with the bonuses it would make saber fights really goddamn annoying. Factor in saber throw and kick and you got yourself the worst weapon to use. If you don't belive me, set out 20 min and i'll use that strat, you probably won't finish me without useing a gun or posibly speed.


Spining DFA: more defence breaking, knockdowns would be really cool but there is a problem with that: Knockdowns do nothing

Knockdowns: Tap jump as soon as you fall down and your up. Too slow? just push that dfa that's coming to you. Right now, i can never knockdown someone when i need to, at least while not jumping around like a fool. I suggest enter diff getup times for knockdowns or make them more frequent. Which brings me to another point:

Pulldowns: If someone force jumps with their back to me, i think it would be right if i pulled them quickly close-up, they would come back AND fall down. It's only logical

Also some other stuff:
Increase blue damage a bit, maybe 5, it takes way to long to use the counter system on the fly, maybe you could show me a demo or something, it's harder to do then it is to explain.

If you decide to make the DFA spin, limit the degrees it can. Maybe 45?
OR
Make dfa's ability to spin stop when it hits the ground.

Also, let suicidebomb DFA's not cancel out after a time, it seems like a waste.
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Old 09-24-2002, 06:29 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by zerowingzero
K a few points:

Fatal: Backpedal speed needs to be slower than forward runing. Why? Jk2 is not a gun only game. In gun only games, backbedaling really doesnt matter because all damage is done long range. With jk2's saber system, you need to make up distance to get attacks. I was suprised how long it took someone who would hold down backpedal and heal in PROMOD, not 1.04, with the bonuses it would make saber fights really goddamn annoying. Factor in saber throw and kick and you got yourself the worst weapon to use. If you don't belive me, set out 20 min and i'll use that strat, you probably won't finish me without useing a gun or posibly speed.
Yeah I gave up on the back up speed thing. I posted that I yielded on this point in one of my previous posts in this thread.


Quote:
Originally posted by zerowingzero


Pulldowns: If someone force jumps with their back to me, i think it would be right if i pulled them quickly close-up, they would come back AND fall down. It's only logical
I agree 100%.

Quote:
Originally posted by zerowingzero
Also some other stuff:
Increase blue damage a bit, maybe 5, it takes way to long to use the counter system on the fly, maybe you could show me a demo or something, it's harder to do then it is to explain.
I agree blue has a reach disadvantage and this could justify a small power increase.

Quote:
Originally posted by zerowingzero
If you decide to make the DFA spin, limit the degrees it can. Maybe 45?
OR
Make dfa's ability to spin stop when it hits the ground.
Hmmm I disagree. I say let the puppy spin but, make a hit points arc for it.
Straight hit (about 10% center) would be full strength,
15 degrees farther right/left - Heavy hit and break points
30 degrees farther - a yellow stance hit and break points
40 degrees after that a blue hit and break points
anything past that or while in the ground after landing would result incidental hit (5 hp no block break)

Let the thing turn on the ground if its harmless


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Old 09-24-2002, 07:05 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by FatalStrike


Hmmm I disagree. I say let the puppy spin but, make a hit points arc for it.
Straight hit (about 10% center) would be full strength,
15 degrees farther right/left - Heavy hit and break points
30 degrees farther - a yellow stance hit and break points
40 degrees after that a blue hit and break points
anything past that or while in the ground after landing would result incidental hit (5 hp no block break)

Let the thing turn on the ground if its harmless
I disagree. It's not the advantage i'm worried about it is the less than perfect counter block system. In theroy, during the yellow finisher recovery time they are helpless, however some hits DO Get parried. In theroy, useing lightning/drain will leave you vernerable, but still some hits do not go through. Leting it spin might give the dfa a unnatural boost in defence, be simply faceing in the direction of the counterattack.
I need to exparament with this some more, but if it isnt the case i have no problem with it.
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Old 09-24-2002, 07:50 PM   #34
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good observation

That's why I suggested in my post that they also be given some kind of csc value. Walking foward will decrease your defense. Glad someone else noticed that force drain and, well, force anything is very safe to use. their animations still block. Yellow finisher, blue lunge, sometimes even red dfa if you stand too far away from them and then charge foward all give the user some kind of defense. I'm all for these moves being very usable, but I'm not for them having defense added to them.

If it were possible to give them csc values, it would be great. Then you could give them like a minus 15 csc, something that would ensure that even the crappiest of blue stance swings would injure the opponent should they go into those animations.

Give backstab it's spin and it's power. Sure, I'd be happy if i could control my stab these days, but I'm also being punished if I land a backstab now as well. No, I do not walk backwards. But to entertain myself, I try to land one of those flashy moves, just to see. When I do some how land the hit, it gets blocked (GOOD THING), but sometimes I hit, but the damage I trade is ridiculous (BAD THING). Sure, people will initially start spamming backstab if they know that it has the potential to do serious damage, but if you could assign a huge csc defense penalty to these moves, we can watch them happily use their moves all they want, and then appropriately make sardines.

Heck, just like the saber throw idea giving you a double damage penalty, why not give getting hit in the back, using a back stab, and saber throw a double damge penalty?

Also, if dfa is going to spin, give us back controllable blue lunge too. It's blockable, and if lightstance is always going to be this low damaging poke stance, might as well it back the one offensive weapon it had back. If people thoroughly reject that, then give back the blue lunge in the air. I don't know, I could care less that someone said that blue lunge is a 'SPECIAL'. Glad you ordained a move that is nothing more than a powerful uppercut. If you get rid or alleviate some of it's uber block animations, then spamming it will be dangerous, pending the person knows what he's doing. Even with the animations, there are multiple methods of getting around it.

I like the pull behind the back idea as well. Bring the knockdowns back in some form. Maybe not when you're standing in front of me and we're fighting. But how about even if we have a csc clash, and I happen to defend well and win. It would ben ice if I could get really close, and if I happen to get a good csc on the opponent before he I either ducks or aims his csc well enough, then I can knock him down. This would add a little to the atmosphere. I mean, they can already get up pretty fast as is.

If that lightsaber is made more lethal, i.e it gets a great deal of it's offensive 1.02 capabilities back, make lightstance not 5 but like 10 points stronger, heck, make it as strong as yellow, I mean it doesn't have nearly as much offesnive clash power, or range. Trade range and offense for speed and defense. Just give it the same amount of power. Who cares if we all go "but where's the incentive to use yellow then"? Well, it has practically the same speed, and if it's 1.02 style, you'll be quite deadly. Blue stance will remain a short range counter system, only much more reliable. right now, it is not the most popular, yellow is. this isn't a bad thing. but it is also the least used stance, and not just because it takes time to master either. Even if you do 'master' it, the rewards are quite small.

Great, civil, intelligent discussion.
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Old 09-24-2002, 09:11 PM   #35
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Re: good observation

Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Shaft


Great, civil, intelligent discussion.
Isn't is GREAT

By the way good post, you and ZWZ made excellent posts about CSC values. These must be fixed for added Offense to be possible.

I don't know about blue being as strong as yellow but I wouldn't mind testing a stronger blue stance.


Final thought:
The only way to stop noobs from ruining any great game is by not letting them play, so don't let them shape gaming ideas.


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Old 09-24-2002, 10:36 PM   #36
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WTF?! A discussion with Fatal and no flames?! H4X!
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Old 09-24-2002, 10:40 PM   #37
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No flames because I haven't posted yet.

j/k

Excellent post all across the board, I'd say.
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Old 09-24-2002, 10:58 PM   #38
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Guys, i think you're underestimating Blue stance. I've been using it almost exclusively in 1v1 situations for some time now just to test its balance, and I have to say that I've won the lions share of those encounters.

The real power behind the stance is Blue's ability to defend to a degree while attacking. All of Blue's swing arcs are short and directly in front of you (excluding spins). That means that your saber is always between you and your foe if you're aiming somewhere close to them. That makes it much more difficult for enemy swings to bypass your saber and hit your body directly.

Most of the ProMod games are running FFA and CTF right now. Try a duel gametype or private duel and give blue a shot. It really is deadly when used under the right conditions.

The blue lunge isn't going to be rotateable because in the animation both feet are firmly planted on the ground. I'm only considering the DFA because half of the animation is in the air. As soon as you hit the ground you won't be able to turn any more.

Couple of new developments
The in-game server browser for Beta 3 now has a ProMod filter up and running. This'll be a huge help for mod newbies and those that don't like using qtracker or ASE.

On Push/Pull: if you get Push/Pulled from behind at close range by level 2 or 3 Push/Pull, it's going to knock you down.


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Old 09-25-2002, 12:09 AM   #39
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I haven't played much online lately, because I preferred lightsabers to glowsticks. This mod is great! My friends and I played it at a LAN party and we all thought it was tremendous improvement to the game.

I agree with the suggestions to make the DFA and backstab spin. As long as there's less damage the more you turn. I also like the idea of inertia with swings (especially red stance and DFA). More damage or CSC values with chained hits would be nice too. Thank you so much for adding a knockdown factor to Push/Pull. I agree that in 1.03 that it was too easy to do, but it sounds like you've fixed it good.

Artifex, keep up the good work, and how about dropping us some hints about that new neutral force power...
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Old 09-25-2002, 12:49 AM   #40
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I'm sure you have dominated with blue stance lately Artifex, however my main issue is just how quick and efficient blue stance is. Right now, yellow stance and red stance can procure quick kills, however blue stance cannot. Now, while you may be of the opinion that we don't need every stance to be the quick killer, I don't know.

Just to alleviate anyone's suspicions, I am not a 'blue stance user'. I use it, but it is not my meat and potatoes of moevement. I actually try to rely heavily on heavy, but of course need to use medium to keep up. I actually think that is better, being forced to use normal swings as opposed to heavy blows. But when the opening is right, the heavy blows come out.

However, when faced with a good blue stance user, I'd prefer that he were able to off me more quickly. I feel that this would not only make me more happy because I enjoy being schooled fast and furiously by anyone, not just someone who enjoys using blue stance, but also it could promote the other players who come into the game charging with yellow and force them to "calm down". Right now, blue stance gets the job done, but I fell like it doens't get it's point across fast enough. Some people can combo blue stance excellently, and kill quickly. Others, like myself, don't like to combo. I just like to block and get in one hit. It's like ingrained in my body and mind.

Perhaps blue matching yellow in damage is a little much. Actually, I don't feel it is. This would in effect slow the game down. Blue stance is relatively easy to block. In its countering though, it's tough to avoid. This would force people to think more carefully, bringing that tension you feel when you see the movies. Anakin taking those wide swings at Dooku, but the whole time you just know that Dooku's style is going to eventually just spread Anakin to thin and waste him. I am a serious dork.

I'm also going to say it again, but I would love if you would make those parries, deflects, and knockways more pronounced. Restricting movement and momentum of the opponent. So if I parry, deflect, whatever, the opponent doesn't just watch his saber leap, he finds he loses control of his direction, perhaps jostling his crosshairs a bit. Just ideas though, probably not practical ones.
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